randomspot555

^^ Jesus didn't start any church either. He died a Jew. Every single one of the Apostles (and many disciples) stayed Jews their entire lives. Ding ding. As so put, marriage is the legal method of easily obtaining these benefits. But these benefits are denied to same sex couples. And strangely enough, every single anti in this thread has only had religious reasoning to back it. It really makes you wonder is there anything beyond "my religion doesn't like it" as far as the crowd that's against gay marriage goes? I've yet to see a credible MD or PHD who supports trying to change homosexuals that doesn't have an agenda to push. If someone came along with a credible person or group that wasn't backed by the Christian right, that's someone I'd listen to. But until then, I'm convinced that most of these ex-gay straitening out theories are completely bogus. Just because it isn't in the Constitution doesn't mean it isn't a right. The reason is because the Constitution is about the federal government. The Tenth Amendment says anything not specified by the Constitution belongs to the states and/or the people. State and local government handles legal marriage. And nothing that is provided by the government should have discrimination in it in regards to race, age, gender, religion, and sexual orientation. God never found a church. Marriage has been around a lot longer than Christianity, or any of the Abrahamic religions. Edward Westermarck, author of The History of Human Marriage, theorizes that marriage evolved from ancient humans living together. The man being the protector, the woman being the caretaker of children. He provides a...well, history of marriage, which goes far back into human history and before many religions. China dates their marriage rituals well into BC wiki article A legal marriage does not have to involve a church or any religion at all (and IMO religious institution's performing legal marriage is unconstituional). You go down to a government building, see a judge. It takes like 15 minutes.

They're different. But I overall don't think too much would be different. But that's a separate issue. My idea for Wi-Fi testers would be that once we determine a method of testing and then what needs to be tested, anyone who can Battle Record can participate in the test. Obviously, they can't participate in something as far as strict usage since we have no reliable way of tracking everyone who Wi-Fi battles. But once we determine what needs to be tested and the method, then Wi-Fi battlers can participate in the test ladder just like everyone else. The only requirements is they need to submit their teams (sets, evs , etc...) and make sure their videos are viewable. And once we determine a method of who gets to vote after a test is completed, those same requirements apply to Wi-Fi testers as well. It might also help for any Wi-Fi testers to only battle within the community. That way we have at least some control and so other random people from other communities aren't inconvienced because I'm taking forever to write down notes. I think it'll also be interesting that, at least within the community, we can see how usage of one-off/event only Pokemon are here compared to usage on Shoddy.

That's the point of the ban tiers. If a Pokemon were to ever fall in usage, it should have a quick test to insure it doesn't break the UU tier in half. And then if it does, it's moved to BL so it won't just fluctuate between them. But also remember that this isn't likely to happen to the most used like Heatran and Scizor. It's more likely to happen to those just hanging on to OU like Empoleon, Flygon, and Heracross. I don't know if there's a lot of point in re-naming the tiers. That's pretty much an asthetic change. Though if anyone has some great sounding names, no reason to at least consider it. I'm more interested in what the Shoddy players around here will decide on as a test system. Are you guys keeping track of usage stats and all that stuff? Or does Dougjustdoug over at Smogon have to dig those stats up manually? And even though Wi-Fi players obviously can't track usage, I think we can still be an asset in testing. I know I'd be more than willing to do the battle recorder video thing and manually keep track of usage in my battles. Do you think that type of system is possible to do, so that us who use carts can have a voice also?

I'm going to assume that that's a typo. Otherwise you're saying that most people are mentally insane. Yes. The Supreme Court has ruled you can't execute those with mental retardation. source And as Greencat said, those people with mental retardation shouldn't be roaming the streets. It's largely a non-issue. Did you even read that? That in no way confirms a gay gene. In fact, it casts doubt on it. And I don't know why I should take many of those people at their word. James Dobson isn't someone I'd trust about the causes of homosexuality, because he has a very obvious anti-gay agenda to push. The point is that two wins share the same genes and that if one is gay the other is likely to be gay. But I'd like to see the original study to see how truthful it realy is. Catholic, or any church or other religious institution, can marry or not marry whoever they want. They can deny a straight, white couple if they want. All those people have to do is walk down to the courthouse and pay a small fee for a judge to do it. That same legal option should be available to any two consenting adults wishing to get the legal benefits of marriage. And ideally, religious institutions can marry anyone or no one, but their marriages will have no legal standing.

Original link here SPPF. I have confirmed this with numerous people that it does work. You won't find out your EXACT SID this way. But you'll have a very narrow field, in which case it's a simple guessing game.

First off, you haven't given a single source that said sexual orientation is caused by genetics. And even assuming it is, how can they be sinning if they have no choice over it, if it's quite literally built into their genes? You can't go against how you inherently are. People can't inherently change themselves if it's built into them as deeply as genetics.

Before we consider doing any testing, be it modifying or whatever, a system needs to be set in place. We should use this thread to talk about a testing system rather than anything else. And if it's productive...we'll keep it open. And if it isn't, we'll close it and try again another day.

False. It's not an attack. You said it yourself. I'll even show you: That isn't the same as "God allws evil into the world" because that's simply a result of free will. You specifically said God has a deal with Satan. Not an attack. You said it yourself. What book? What deal? The deal that God made with Satan? Where does this deal come from? Why would God conspire with the entity of pure evil? That's an extremely narrow interpenetration of a passage in the Bible that quotes 144,000 (not 114,000) will get in. What is missing is context. Because at the time, 144,000 is a lot of people. Now, that is like the size of a medium sized city including it's suburbs. Also, again a gross misinterperation, the actual verse reads: Revelations 14:1 1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. So 144,000 are already there. No where does it say that is the limit. And even if it did, that means there already there,and thus no one else is getting into heaven. Doesn't sound like a very appealing religion. The other point where you obviously are wrong, and there is no denying this, is "whoever followed his commands". I'm guessing you mean the Ten Commandments. But no one is without sin. We've all broken those hundreds, probably thousands, of times over. So far, you've said that your faith (which you've yet to clarify) believes God has willingly made a deal with Satan that gives him some power, and that only those who are without sin (IE no one) get into paradise. You keep saying this but you've yet to give a source. No, not "look it up." It is not up to me to prove you wrong. You have to source your definitive statements.. If you can't source your facts, then stop posting them as facts. Of course all of this doesn't matter because no one gives a damn about your or my or anyone's religion when it comes to the basic legal rights that citizens of a democracy enjoy. Everyone should have access to them, and no one's religion should get in the way.

That's not according to Darwin. That's the religion itself. Many sects of Hinduism are monotheistic, but unlike Western religions they don't put much emphasis on it. There are sects that range from polytheism to atheism, but to class all Hindus as X or Y-ism is a simplification Of course sects of Judaism look at Christianity and consider it Polytheistic due to the Holy Trinity, and CAtholicism doubly so due to the Saints. But if you look at it from a theological perspective rather than a Judeo-Christian perspective, you'll find that monotheism and Hinduism are compatible.

Okay, everyone. Apparently a few of you are incapable of posting without being complete jerks about it. I'm editing out a bunch of flame bait in a few posts, and I'm still deciding on if I should just infract people and tell them to stop posting here, or close the whole thread. EDIT: Apparently it was really only one person. I think most of you have done pretty well, and I see no reason to close the thread. Please carry on. ---------- Post added at 09:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 PM ---------- So much misinformation. No, there is no "gay" gene, just as there is no "straight" gene. However, just because there is no genetic gene that's responsible for sexuality doesn't mean it's a choice, especially not one of those choices like "Pancakes or waffles for breakfast." I'll explain, once again ironically using religion as an example. As I said before, religion is 100% a choice. So is stuff like following cultural norms, the political beliefs you have, political party you're a part of, and so on. But the thing is, people turn out a lot like their parents. If you're raised by two Democrats, you'll probably be a Democrat. If you're raised by two Catholics, you'll probably stay Catholic, even if you stray away from the Church. It's extremely unlikely of someone raised in a religion to switch. Similarly the societal and cultural norms you're raised with will stay with you, even if you move somewhere where those norms just aren't compatible with society. Now there is debate if people turn out because of nature or nurture Wiki here. But try this out: Ask a little kid who has no idea what poltiics are, and ask him something like who are the good guys, Republicans or Democrats. That'll tell you quite a bit. And wraith, yes, addiction can be traced to...well, not necessarily genetics, but certainly the brain. There's a variety of neurological disorders, and the brain does have an addiction center Do you? Why would they be disguested by who they are? I've still yet to be sold on the pseudo-science of straightening someone out. I'm open to it, but it seems every time someone names someone or a group, they almost always have some financial backing by a religious institute. False. Power of attorney, getting covered on your partner's insurance, and basic stuff that just automatically becomes possible as part of a legal marriage ranges from being a huge hassle to near impossible depending on where you live when...well, you can't get legally married to the person you love. In another case of discrimination, the conservative Christian, tax evading group Advance America, led by...well, conservative Christian, tax evading Eric Miller, had a fit when Governor Mitch Daniels (Republican- Indiana) decided to continue the Equal Employment Opportunity employed by his predecessors. And all that was was that sexual orientation and gender identity (along with the host of usual, like age, disability, race, and religion) would not be a factor in hiring, firing, or disciplining state employees. Advance America and co then launch a media storm, saying that this gave homosexuals "special rights" and that there is now a quota in state government, and crap like "how would you like a crossdresser teaching your children?". Of course, none of that is true. Daneils was just exercising a core conservative people that people's private lives are just that, private, and that it wouldn't be a factor when being employed by the state. Then Advance America did this again when the City of Indianapolis tried to do the same thing, adding sexual orientation into a list of protected classes that can't be discriminated against in hiring or firing. But thank the gods they won, because you can still fire someone just for being gay, regardless of their job performance, right here in Indiana. But why would a heterosexual want to marry a...well, soeone of the same sex? Again, I fail to see the problem in letting two consenting adults enter into a LEGAL (not religious) CONTRACT. So...you honestly believe that God is doing backroom deals with Satan? That doesn't sound like a very nice God, letting the epitomy of pure evil and willingly give him power.

For all intensive purposes, this thread can serve as a community discussion as to what we as a community should do about clans leagues and all that jazz.

Ironically, the most afflicted demographic of HIV/Aids isn't gay men, but African-Americans, making up something like 47%. wikipedia gave me this link, and I've also heard this said in numerous Afro-American Studies courses. But I doubt we'll be imposing restrictions on African-Americans because of this.

It's not a Direct/Pure Democracy. But it is a Democratic-Republic. Powered by the people, majority rules, elected representatives, but the minority still has rights. You can't take away someone's rights just because a group of people don't like them. Regardless it doesn't invalidate anything I said. Cheating is an issue within an already established relationship. Forcing people to change who they are is a completely different situation and you know that. It's the equivalent of if we made a list of all the "wrong" religions and forced all of those people to the "right" religion.

There's no amendment, or mention of marriage, at all in the US Constitution or the Amendments. It coukd be argued that passage of homosexual marriage in one state would force other states to recognize it because of the Equal Protection Clause in the 14th amendment. At the time, it was designed to prevent legal discrimination. If a man owns property in one state and brings it elsewhere, that other state can't take it away. Or more sensibly, I can't flee my state if a warrant is out for me, go somewhere else and get out without consequence. It can be argued that it also applies to marriages. Many types of civil and legal documents cross state lines, so I don't see why a marraige certificate would become null and void either. Congrats on expanding your point. Even though I don't agree with you I totally get where you're coming from and understand your point of view *eye roll smiley here* Why should individuals have to change who they are to please some other group of people? Because they said so? Remember a true democracy is set up so that it's ruled by the majority but the minority still has rights. Even if people are totally against homosexuals, that shouldn't change anything that they still have (Well, should) the same legal rights and benefits everyone else enjoys.

By whom (ie back up your statement with a source)? Okay... "I don't like it" should never be used concerning legal matters especially when it concerns denying a group of people equal rights. I'm going to go out there and say this: Gay marriage is a rights issue. Within the confines of a civil marriage, married couples automatically get several hundred benefits of marriage, including tax benefits, power of attorney, and more (depending on where you live). While some areas of the US and the world have made it possible to obtain some or all of these benefits, it is a complete hassle to do so when everyone else autoatically get these upon a civil marriage. Then there are areas who don't grant these benefits to non-married couples. And this whole legal system of marriage is based around two consenting adults. None of this slippery slope BS. Not incest (already banned because of how harmful it can be to the couple and children), not animal and human, not 3 women and one man, not one adult and one child, two consenting adults. **now i don't see why consenting adults can't enter into a polygamous marriage, but they shouldn't get any legal benefits from it, but that won't happen** Now, the often used justification is that being gay is a choice. (for some reason, the opposite, being straight, isn't seen as a choice, but I digress). Let's just assume that it's true. So what? It still doesn't invalidate that homosexuals deserve all the freedoms and protection under the law that everyone else can get. Tax breaks, equal employment (IE the right to not be fired/not hired just because of one's sexual orientation), yknow all that stuff. You know what else is protected under the law? Something that employees can't discriminate against, something that pretty much can't be used against you at all? Religion, which is 100% a choice. The ultimate solution to all of this is to get the government out of marriage. The state and local government have no business licensing religions to do legal marriages. If a religion wants to marry whatever, go for it. Or if they want to deny someone marriage, their choice. But it shouldn't be recognized by the state in either case. A civil marriage should be open to every consenting adult under the law. And anyone who wants to supplement that with a religious ceremony is welcome to do so. Also: If you can't handle a debate, you're welcome to not read the thread and/or post a reply. If you see anyone acting out of hand, report them or PM me with a direct link to the post.

But when he has 2 physical attackers and one mixed (mostly physical) attacker, what's the point in saying Suicune can't beat Blissey? Of course it can't. Bliss will always wall it, regardless of it's move set. That doesn't make Suicune any less viable. It just means it can't beat Blissey. And if Toxic is Blissey's status of choice, then that's an invitation for Metagross to come on in since it won't be bothered too much by Blissey's flamethrower. Because of Stealth Rock damage, sand storm, and Life Orb recoil, it'll be spending a lot of time Roosting away damage, or it dies off fairly quickly. I don't even see how Tyranitar is a proper replacement for Suicune. They're completely different roles. I did. Please don't insinuate anything otherwise. I did misread the part about Gyarados, but no need to dismiss my post as nonsense. It's very much worth pointing out that sand storm will harm a lot of Pokemon on this team.

Same on Octillery. The bulk helped, but not much. Thunder Wave never got used due to bad prediction. Spiritomb ended up being: 252 HP/128 DEF/128 Sp DEF (which ended up not helping at all) Choice Scarf Trick Confuse Ray Shadow Sneak Will O Wisp Up against Nidoking w/ Life Orb and Leftovers Lapras. I tricked my Scarf onto Lapras both times, which was using a Toxic-Dive-Perison Song- Protect set. But through compelte luck, it Protected twice in a row The second time I ended up kinda half assing it, but I got +2 sp atk on Octillery due to some decent prediction. Anyway, tournament is over. I'd love to do something similar over here. Maybe soon. (if you/anyone want to start a new thread about PP tournaments in the main Competitive forum, go for it)

At first glance, this team really isn't that bad. Despite using Hippowdon, the only ones who really suffer from it are Latias and Starmie. Breloon recovers more than enough even in sand. That's not to say there aren't viable replacements for Hippow (or the other two guys), but it proves that a sand storm user is possible without a sand storm team. There's nothing inherently bad about this set, but oh god you are going to be so disappointed at Earthquake's power at everything not named Heatran and Lucario. If you're catching enough people off guard by using Heatproof, keep doing so. But when you start getting knocked around by Earthquake and the opponent figures it out, you might want to switch out. Anyway, I think you should just forget about going on offense and just keep playing defense with it. Explosion is fine. At least Earthquake should go. Maybe Gyro Ball too, depending on how determined you are at exploding early instead of later. Here's a list of team player moves that Bronzong can use: Hypnosis: Omgzers 60%?!?!?!?! Yeah, but Bronzong is one of the few users wo can afford to miss. Confuse Ray: Handy if you want to force a switch. Safeguard: This move is so amazing and so underutilized. It PREVENTS STATUS. Your team is actually pretty fine off as far as preventing status with Starmie and sub Breloom, but if you ever ditched one or both of them, this is worth considering. Light Screen/Reflect: Might wanna use Light Clay in this case. Do one or the other. I've rarely been able to use both before having to switch or explode. Bronzong gets a ton of other moves that are horribly underutilized (Calm Mind, Trick, Iron Defense, Rock Tomb), but aren't really going to fit onto yours. And unfortunately, I have real world stuff to take care of. I'll rate the rest later, maybe.

Tyranitar would be an absolutely horrible addition to the team, with 3 of his Pokeon taking sand storm damage. It basically spells death for Salamence who'll take 25% from Stealth Rock + Life Orb recoil. Tyranitar and it's fellow weather ability Pokes can't just be used on any team unless you have someone else to change the weather around, which is usually a waste of a move slot. I don't think Suicune's objective is to beat Blissey. Blissey is the best special wall in the game, bar none. However, it can still effectively counter Blissey by getting it out via Roar. Suicune won't mind paralysis too much from Thunder Wave, but Toxic could be a problem. As long as he has one Pokemon with a physical attack still around (or Roar on Suicune), he has a check on Blissey. He's already commented that he'll be switching U-Turn with X-Scissor (and Outrage on Mence, which is fine as long as he doesn't do it too early in the game). That doesn't make Scizor any less weak to Gyarados, but then again, that's why we have a team. Scizor won't ever be able to take on Gyarados without something amazing like 3 swords dances or a crit, and it shouldn't be expected to. As for Mence, I think you're overstimating Brick Break quite a bit: Brick Break hitting for SE x2 damage = 150 STAB Dragon Claw for neutral damage = 120 STAB Outrage for neutral damage = 180 So for the cost of a bit less hard hitting, you get an attack that hits everything that isn't steel for neutral damage and still takes a huge chunk out of Blissey. Or Outrage doing even better than a SE fighting attack. I think Rotom serves as a fine check on Machamp. Avoids Dynamic Punch. With NoGuard Machamp it has a 100% accurate Will O Wisp. The only thing it really fears is Payback. Rotom-H is a decent enough check on Gyarados. Though I think it might be worth considering replacing Explosion on Metagross with Thunderpunch if you find yourself not exploding too often.

Better isn't a term I'd use since they serve different roles. Even though Empoleon has like 10 resists + poison immunity, it is weak to what is arguably the 3 most common types of attacks: Ground, Fighting, and Electric. And unlike most of it's water brothers and sisters, it takes neutral damage to fire. Agility Empoleon's (with Life Orb + 3 atks or PEtaya berry + Sub) are basically very offensive. Due to the variety of attacks it can come in on, it can force a switch on any number of Choiced Pokemon, Agility or Sub up, and start a sweep. However, it can't take hits very well unless it resists them, and almost no one is going to have a team without Electric/Fighting/Ground attacks, even if they're down to their last Pokemon. It's defensive sets largely rely on the same. Come in on a resist, and on the switch set up Stealth Rock, use Knock Off, Roar, or Yawn. But it can be argued that other Pokemon do this type of stuff better. And it's probably Agility sets that put Empoleon into OU rather than anything else. Suicune on the other hand doesn't have a large amount of resists, but isn't weak to Ground and Fighting (and sure it's weak to electric, but Calm Mind helps out so it can handle Thunderbolt). It's bulky, has Pressure, and can Roar away threats. But most sets don't utilize it's special attack stat because it's more about taking hits than dealing damage. So it depends on what you want. Agility Empoleon will have a lot of chances to come in and be a pretty decent offensive Pokemon. Suicune can come in and play defense. And yes, Roar is a great option. Expect to see Gyarads come in, then force it out with Roar and let it take some more SR damage. Speaking of which, maybe consider a second Stealth Rock user, or not exploding Metagross? Personally, I think Agility Empoleon is extremely overrated and might even be bordering on gimmicky, as well as many of the other Steel/whatever typed Pokemon running defensive sets, like Heatran. Sure, these Pokemon have the base stats to wall, but when their few weaknesses are extremely common, it's pretty easy to force a switch or take it down.

HP Ghost at 70 power for SE damage = 140 STAB Surf for neutral damage = 142 That's why HP are almost always geared to the Pokemon with x4 weaknesses, because 90% of the time, a STAB move such as Surf will do just as much, if not more, damage. But Dusknoir relies heavily on Pressure Stalling. Will O Wisp, Toxic, etc...because it's other attacks won't do much unless for x4 damage. Your best bet is probably to Roar it away, since Suicune won't mind a burn too much.

I don't think anyone is elitist. They simply have an easier way of obtaining these movesets due to most users of Smogon (probably even most competitive battlers in general; i know a good few who don't even own D/P/Plat) use Shoddy. Sure, but you got very lucky. I know someone who spent something like 2 weeks to get a competitively viable Regice or something like that. If that Zapdos also had a good nature ANd IVs, I'd consider you very lucky. I understand this point and it's been said before, but Pokesav's existance doesn't negate the good chunk of people who either don't hack their carts or don't have access to an AR or flashcart. And if "just pokesav it" is bought up, then it just seems like one step away fro allowing illegal Pokes too, which Pokesav allows you to create. I hate using that slippery slope argument and kinda feel dirty for typing it, but I think it still makes a good point. In a legit Wi-Fi environment (and I know more than a few people here who play 100% legit on their carts, or have 1 cart reserved for hacking and another one clean, etc...), there are differences between Wi-Fi and Shoddy. How much those effect the overall environment can be debated,but they are there nonetheless. I think a core aspect of a competitively viable battling community that battles via Wi-Fi is people who understand the game mechanics not just of battle strategy itself, but also the mechanics that allow you to actually get these Pokemon. That isn't to say people who battle Shoddy don't use Wi-Fi or don't understand the game mechanics. I know Jumpman has said he's the exact opposite of you (rarely does Shoddy, does Wi-Fi). A simple glance at the Articles section shows several that are written to help do stuff in-game. But that doesn't neglect that Shoddy and Wi-Fi are different environments. Random PBR battles are...well, random. And while the traffic might be slower, try getting on when Japan is awake. I've had slightly better luck finding interesting opponents doing so (meaning midnight-3am). But be prepared to wait 15 minutes or more before finding one. I have no idea...wasn't part of my post. I know they leave out some moves or items, but a simulator really doesn't need Tackle and Revives in it. Ok, so someone explain this to me. Right now, numerous Pokemon are being tested and/or re-tested. So all that testing is on a Testing Ladder. But over in the standard ladder, Pokemon like Garchomp and Shaymin-S are still banned, right?

It speaks more to Starmie's movepool than it's typing. There's quite a few water types that can learn Fire type moves (Gyarados and Octillery, for example)

I've used a similar Scizor set (same EV spread, nature, ability). U-Turn is Scizor's best bug STAB IF it's holding a Choice item. Otherwise, X-Scissor is preferred so you won't lose your +atk from Swords Dance. The choice between Superpower and Brick Break is safety vs risk. I think Brick Break is just fine on a SD set, especially if you don't plan on switching out a lot. Superpower fits much better on a Choice Band set, where switching out is more common. Really, you shouldn't think of it as much of a weapon against Tyranitar (since Tyranitar is almost always going to get out due to Bullet Punch) and more of a weapon against Heatran switch ins. But if you really don't see yourself using the STAB Bug option, how about throwing Protect or Substitute on there? Protect can help you out if you need to see what your opponent will do. Sub is worth considering if you want to pair it up with Leftovers, which helps ensure safety and a chance to Sword Dance up. Salamence and Outrage, as any Outrage user, is all about when to use it. Use it too early, and Scizor and co are going to come in and set up. But after you've scouted out threats, it's a fine option. As to your Celebi set, I can't speak much on how good it is. As a Wi-Fi player, I don't have access to a Celebi that's viable in better...and I don't think I've ever faced one. I can run down some options for you, as far as the ones you named: Starmie seems good enough to be bulky like many of it's water brethren, but the Psychic typing adds a Dark/Ghost weakness that holds it back. I've tried an all out defensive set with Starmie, and it wasn't worth the trouble. That being said, Starmie can still be a team player. Just take the basic Rapid Spin set, which provides Starmie with enough bulk (any more is relatively useless). Keep Rapid Spin if you want, but if not, replace it with any number of team support options (screens, Confuse Ray, Thunder Wave, Toxic). I've also experimented with a Rapid Spin set but lose Surf in place of a team support move. However, it opens up Starmie to be extremely Tyranitar weak, even moreso than it is now. Starmie's basic Choice sets with Trick are also very viable with either Specs or Scarf. The only thing to watch out for is when you Trick it to another Choice holder. If...for example, you Trick with a Choice Band Weavile or Tyranitar, they'll Pursuit your ass as you are forced to switch out. But it's a great mid-late game move that I've unfortunately been crippled by too many times. Grass Knot access and the fact that most Swamperts won't enjoy Choice Scarf makes it decent if that's your main concern. Suicine is a great all around bulky water. Many right away will say RestTalk, but I think Milotic does that better, and Suicune can do other things that Milo can't. Suicune w/ Leftovers Calm (+SpD, -atk)/Bold (+Def, -Atk) Pressure 252 HP/252 DEF/6 Sp Atk - Calm Mind/Roar - Ice Beam - Surf - Wall of Text of options Suicune's 4th move has a variety of stuff to play around with. My personal favorite is Roar. Force out those pesky stat-upping/sub using bastards with this. Acts great early in the game to scout a team. If you opt for Roar over Calm Mind in the first slot, it'll be a good idea to get some bulk out and into Special Attack and Special Defense. Toxic is also viable. Most steel types won't enjoy switching into STAB Surf/Hydro Pump, and Suicune resists Steel, so I don't think that's justification enough to rule it out. HP Electric can be useful against Gyarados. The other common HPs aren't really worth the move slot and you seem to already have good answers for Heatran and Scizor. HP Grass is kind of worth considering if you think it's that much of a threat. Swagger can help out against Blissey and co. It does seem slightly gimmicky but as long as you are sure there aren't physical attackers out there who can absorb it with Lum Berry, you'll be fine. Mirror Coat is also useful if you can't decide what to put in the last slot. Signal Beam is available via Plat Move Tutor, but unless you're shaking in your boots about Ludicolo, then don't use it. However, even though I just typed up a wall of text about Suicune's fourth move slot, I think Starmie is overall better since Natural Cure is still on your team, which you greatly need to absorb Status that isn't Toxic. Finally, Milotic. Mainly RestTalk so we can keep absorbing status. Marvel Scale gives it pretty good physical defenses. Max out it's HP is a must. How much you split between Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense depends on what you think your team needs as far as defense goes and what nature you choose, so I'm mainly going to talk about it's two move slots. Surf + Ice Beam are what comes to mind at first, but I'll make a case for a few others in place of Ice Beam. Toxic is suggested on Smogon's page and I've found it to be quite helpful. Again, steel types aren't likely to ever stay in on a bulky water, so that shouldn't be used to justify a move over Toxic. HP whatever are viable candidates on other sets, but this won't help much with little to no special attack investment. Icy Wind: People laugh at me whenever I've used this. Both not expecting it and noting the low amount of damage it does, which is true. But that isn't the point. The point is to slow everything down a notch or two. And without Thunder Wave, Icy Wind does that just fine. It also makes Gyarados less scary. Sure, it switches in with little damage, but also a drop in speed. Also likely to force switches And if you're iffy about RestTalk sets, Milotic also learns Safeguard. But I haven't played around with non-RestTalk sets in OU, so I can't make any suggestions And apparently, you addressed most of my points in your post. Zapdos would be a great addition to your team, but I think the three outlined here are also worthy of consideration. EDIT AGAIN: Apparently, I overlooked every single one of Milotic's egg moves, but most of those won't be worth the slot on Rest Talk.

satoshix, I hope you continue to hang around. The fact that you've been around this long speaks volumes of what a great member/admin you've been.