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Creation of the universe: Darwin or Bible

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Only reason I appreciate religion is that it provided an early moral code when laws were hard to enforce.

People are naturally inquisitive, for things we cannot fathom to explain, it is easiest to say it is the work of the "divine" rather than finding the physical solution. By filling in these "gaps" of knowledge with synthetic (and incorrect) explanations, we are able to assure ourselves that we know our place in our world, and how it works.

This is explained in "The God of the Gaps" (by Neil deGrasse Tyson). You can see the video here.

"15% of the most brilliant minds in the (US) accepts (a personal God)"

Religious people are quick to explain things that are beyond their scope of understanding as the work of God(s). Not only has this hindered many scientists at the limit of their knowledge, as shown in the video, it also limits our openness to new ideas, which may better explain the realm in which we live.

tl;dr, religion is good for its morals (albeit not completely). Good for early governance, bad for modern ideas. I'm with Darwin.

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Kaphotics' post.

A great video. But this really just illustrates human behaviour, it doesn't say there isn't a God.

I agree with the guy though, Science and Religion should be separate. Science needs to discover things, and Religion, as the guy points out, is a lazy escape when someone meets the limits of their knowledge. But that doesn't go to say that there isn't a divine creator, that just says that when we can't explain it we blame it on one.

Honestly I could liken this to blaming the fart (gap in knowledge) on the dog (God). Even if the dog didn't actually fart, the dog still exists :P.

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A great video. But this really just illustrates human behaviour, it doesn't say there isn't a God.

I agree with the guy though, Science and Religion should be separate. Science needs to discover things, and Religion, as the guy points out, is a lazy escape when someone meets the limits of their knowledge. But that doesn't go to say that there isn't a divine creator, that just says that when we can't explain it we blame it on one.

Honestly I could liken this to blaming the fart (gap in knowledge) on the dog (God). Even if the dog didn't actually fart, the dog still exists :P.

That's the thing though: a 'divine creator' is a human concept and thus within human knowledge. How can something derived from such explain things that go beyond the same boundaries? It's illogical. I highly doubt that any vision of 'God' that humans have ever dreamt up has or will ever exist.

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I'm personally a follower of the Theory that another Universe existed before this one, and another before that, in a never-ending cycle of expansion and contraction. There was no beginning, and will be no end. Afterall, Time itself is relative.

SABEDIT

Here's a fun thought. Albert Einstein was a physicist because he loved God so much. He loved seeing all the intricate and absolute ways that God had rigged the world to work, and how Math and Science could solve everything, since God engineered it that way. Then String Theory came along. It basically held no structure. String Theory stated the universe was random, and that just observing the particles in string theory you have altered their next actions beyond recompense. This drove Einstien insane. Literally, he could not live in a world dictated by chance. The God he so knew and love wouldn't leave anything up to chance, and he dedicated his entire live to disproving string theory.

He failed spectacularly. Today, String Theory is used in most modern technology, such as computers, Cell-Phones, and even some Cars. Just a fun though, take what you will from this.

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And all that was supposed to come out of nothing? An absolute must have been there from the start for something to happen. :)

Universe = Uni + Verse = One + Word

"In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth"

I agree with this.

In some way, shape, or form, God DID create the universe. It is hard to believe that intelligent life with feelings, a conscience, and 100% free will was caused (of course not created :P) by some random blobs of matter that was just there for no reason just happened to explode correctly without any guidance or direction of some sort of higher being.

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I'm too smart to believe in superstition and mythology ;)

You have to realize that the English language was shaped in the evolution from the previous languages it came from, which all happened in the times where Christianity was the common belief. Etymologies: words came from other words.

You are 100% wrong about the term Universe:

The word universe derives from the Old French word Univers, which in turn derives from the Latin word universum. The Latin word derives from the poetic contraction Unvorsum, which connects un, uni (the combining form of unus', or "one") with vorsum, versum (a noun made from the perfect passive participle of vertere, meaning "something rotated, rolled, changed").

Also can be interpreted as from περιφορά, "something transported in a circle".

Do not stretch words to what you want them to be.

==

Using the argument that some of the best scientists believe in God is extremely flawed, they are prime examples of the God of the Gaps, in which when one reaches the extent of their scientific knowledge. When they reach an impasse, they come to a dead stop in their scientific advancement and say that it is evidence of a higher power. Science stays the same way until someone goes beyond their impasse.

Evolution and Creationism is a great illustration of the God of the Gaps, Darwin came along and went beyond the known and explained what was left to "belief".

EosvI.jpg

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In some way, shape, or form, God DID create the universe. It is hard to believe that intelligent life with feelings, a conscience, and 100% free will was caused (of course not created :P) by some random blobs of matter that was just there for no reason just happened to explode correctly without any guidance or direction of some sort of higher being.

Simply because something is hard to believe doesn't make it impossible. Although the odds of intelligent life evolving in any given solar system are miniscule, it is practically certain that, given the number of solar systems in the universe, intelligent life will evolve somewhere. And will that life form not marvel at the miracle of its existence? But that does not make its existence a miracle. When you take into consideration the size of the universe, it is merely a statistical certainty.

As for the random blobs of matter exploding instantaneously: that is not what is believed any more. That is impossible.

There is no place for a creator in the current hypothesis: each successive universe is created from the previous universe. To go back to a starting place is meaningless; it's like finding the start of a circle.

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Simply because something is hard to believe doesn't make it impossible. Although the odds of intelligent life evolving in any given solar system are miniscule, it is practically certain that, given the number of solar systems in the universe, intelligent life will evolve somewhere. And will that life form not marvel at the miracle of its existence? But that does not make its existence a miracle. When you take into consideration the size of the universe, it is merely a statistical certainty.

As for the random blobs of matter exploding instantaneously: that is not what is believed any more. That is impossible.

There is no place for a creator in the current hypothesis: each successive universe is created from the previous universe. To go back to a starting place is meaningless; it's like finding the start of a circle.

Whoever said "the Creator" was a physical being?

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According to String Theory, there is a finite chance that anything will happen next. Indeed you could be walking in New York, take one step forward, and find yourself on Mars. The chance of such a thing happening is so close to 0, that you might as well call it 0. Even if the entire population of earth were to somehow cram themselves into New York, and take a single step forward repeatedly, the chances would barely rise, due to just how small a chance it is.

Another fun fact for you, had Earth formed a single inch farther or closer to the sun than it's current position, life wouldn't have been possible. So what are the odds that the our Solar System would form where it did, that our planet would form the way that it did, that each drop of rain would fall as they did, and that the first microbial life-forms would live as they did, eat as they did, and evolve as they did, to eventually result in Human Beings? About the same odds as trying to get to Mars from New York in a single step.

The point is though, it's possible. No Divine being had to have been present for such events to occur. Just by random chance we exist. Humans were not miraculously complex beings, we started as microbial forms, and worked our way up.

(Single-Celled Organism>Colonial Single-Celled Organism>Multi-Celled Organism>Various Simple Aquatic Life (Jelly Fish for example)>Fish>Amphibian>Reptile>Mammal>Primape>Various Degrees between Man and Ape>Man: During each incarnation the amount of intelligence goes up just a little bit)

It should be noted that Humans are even still evolving. Remember that thing called the appendix? It used to rock back in the day. But now, it's so useless that each generation has a smaller one than the previous, and eventually, it will stop existing. In addition, our race is slowly and steadily getting taller. Small changes, but it's still evolution. (Some scientients are beginning to believe that we can no longer call ourselves Homo-Sapiens, and some even go as far as to say we're)

The TL:DR Version: Godly being didn't really need to exist for the universe to happen. The chance is slim, but us and the universe could have happened without a God.

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i think it kinda all complicated explaining the orgins of the universe but here are my ideas ( correct me if im worng) common sense says that you cant make something out of nothing in which case both sides would be wrong cause the big bang if i belive i dont know exacly has no history behind the big ball that exploded and if there was some sort of energy that made the ball what made the enrgy? also on the religon side ps i am kinda religous and belive in god but this is the 1 question i have. If god is the first thing ever before anything and made the universe how did god come to be? i have a bunch of ideas in my head about both just dont feel like typing them all.

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i think it kinda all complicated explaining the orgins of the universe but here are my ideas ( correct me if im worng) common sense says that you cant make something out of nothing in which case both sides would be wrong cause the big bang if i belive i dont know exacly has no history behind the big ball that exploded and if there was some sort of energy that made the ball what made the enrgy? also on the religon side ps i am kinda religous and belive in god but this is the 1 question i have. If god is the first thing ever before anything and made the universe how did god come to be? i have a bunch of ideas in my head about both just dont feel like typing them all.

You're not thinking in the right way. We as humans aren't meant to understant how the universe was made. That's why the bible only tells us what happened: God, an infinite being (which we also aren't meant to understand as finite beings), created it. Scientists (Athiests AND non-athiest scientists) come and try to explain how it happened, and still don't understand how the universe was made (because nothing exploading into nothing suddenly creating something is not plausible at all).

Learn to not have to fully understand things to believe in them, then the rest is easy.

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Why can't both big-bang and the Bible be correct? :)

My theory: ( call it short-thoughts and fantasy if you will -- just hear me out )

God is as Hindu's believe -- existence. So he always is, always was, and always will be. When he created the rest of the universe, he did so utilizing the big-bang ( which somehow stretched over the course of 6 days ). Am I the only one who finds it odd that with just a little bit of perspective, religions widely considered vastly different like Hinduism and Judaism can even share a commonality? For example, there are 3 main gods that I'm aware of in Hinduism, -- Christianity has the trinity.

-- Nothing is more dangerous than a closed mind.

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ok i kinda get what your saying now evandixon

AFTER THOUGHT: so its kinda like how a color blind creature will never be able to understand color and a deaf creature will never be able to understand sound

Edited by mulhollinman

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On 12/9/2011 at 11:35 PM, Full Metal said:

Why can't both big-bang and the Bible be correct? :)

My theory: ( call it short-thoughts and fantasy if you will -- just hear me out )

God is as Hindu's believe -- existence. So he always is, always was, and always will be. When he created the rest of the universe, he did so utilizing the big-bang ( which somehow stretched over the course of 6 days ). Am I the only one who finds it odd that with just a little bit of perspective, religions widely considered vastly different like Hinduism and Judaism can even share a commonality? For example, there are 3 main gods that I'm aware of in Hinduism, -- Christianity has the trinity.

-- Nothing is more dangerous than a closed mind.

Actually, it technically is, in a way, since the Big Bang's "creation of the Earth in 6 days" was a reference to the billions of years that the universe spent before we as humans even existed in the first place, with the creation of the Sun (& the planets as a result) from nebulae & all...

Edited by coltonsmogon

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Pretty sure this thread used to be locked (or maybe it just dies due to no more replies - it's hard to say since it was so long ago), but as long as discussion remains civil, I'll allow it to continue.

4 hours ago, coltonsmogon said:

Actually, it technically is, in a way, since the Big Bang's "creation of the Earth in 6 days" was a reference to the billions of years that the universe spent before we as humans even existed in the first place, with the creation of the Sun (& the planets as a result) from nebulae & all...

I agree to an extent.  As a technicality, the 6 days refer to the earth specifically, mentioning nothing of the time between the heavens & earth being created and the first day. 

Some believe God created the earth in literally 6 days, asserting that because the word "day" means what we think it does in the rest of Genesis, it means the same thing in the first chaper.  However, the first chapter is written as poetry, so I think "day" here means "an indeterminate period of time", which easily fits the big bang theory, defined as an effect of the universe being created, while saying nothing of the cause.  I say that the cause is God.

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