Standard Rules (as of April 15 from Smogon.com)+General Smogon discussion [Archive]

Destati

Apr 24th, 2009, 05:31 AM

Pokemon Platinum marks the newest phase in the Pokemon Metagame. For a long time, a website named Smogon has been put in charge of organizing the competitive Pokemon scene. Smogon can be related to Smashboards in terms of importance and influence.

It has been accepted throughout the Pokemon community that whenever two people battle with each other they follow what we call "Standard Rules." These rules have been fashioned by Smogon.com to ensure the balance of battle. Here is what these rules contain:

No Ubers
First and foremost, Standard rules deny the usage of Uber Pokemon. These Pokemon overcentralize the standard gameplay and have been deemed too powerful.
- Arceus
- Darkrai
- Deoxys (all forms)
- Dialga
- Garchomp
- Giratina (Both forms)
- Groudon
- Ho-oh
- Kyogre
- Latias (with Soul Dew)
- Latios
- Lugia
- Manaphy
- Mew
- Mewtwo
- Palkia
- Rayquaza
- Shaymin (Sky Form only)
- Wobbuffet
- Wynaut

Why are Garchomp and Wobbuffet banned?
Garchomp and Wobbuffet/Wynaut are the only two/three Pokemon deemed Uber who are not legendary. Both have similar reasons. Neither of them have counters. Wobbuffet's ability, Shadow Tag, prevents switch-outs and draws battles into unneccessary lengths of time.

Garchomp's ban was established a few months after the dreadul "Yachechomp" set was created. Yachechomp is the name for a Garchomp holding a Yache Berry, one of the 16 berries that decreases the damage of a super effective attack. Yache Berry decreases the power of Ice attacks. This berry essentially makes it so that no Pokemon can successfully switch into battle against Garchomp and defeat him.

Evasion Clause
Moves that boost evasion, such as Double Team and Minimize are not allowed. Abilities that boost evasion such as Snow Cloak and Sand Veil are still allowed. The item Bright Powder is also still allowed. The reasoning behind this is simple. If moves like these were allowed, the gameplay would be overcome with poor accuracy and would essentially turn into a game based solely on luck.

Freeze Clause
No two Pokemon may be frozen at the same time. There is no move as of current time that solely freezes a Pokemon, therefore this Clause cannot be enforced except for in controlled environments such as Battle Revolution and Shoddy.

OHKO Clause
Moves that cause a one-hit KO such as Sheer Cold and Fissure are not allowed. Similar to the Evasion Clause, luck should not win a battle but rather strategy.

Sleep Clause
The players may not put more than one Pokemon on the opponent's side to Sleep. The move Rest is not affected by this Clause. If it were not for this clause, Pokemon like Breloom, Butterfree and Darkrai would run rampant putting everything they see to sleep, preventing the player from essentially doing anything.

Species Clause
No two Pokemon of the same species may be used on the same team. For example, two Gardevoirs would violate this clause but a Gardevoir and a Gallade does not. This is because teams are suited for countering specific Pokemon only once. A team of Zapdoses would essentially require everyone to have a Blissey. It would destroy the balance of the metagame, and just imagine a team of 6 Arceus.

Self KO Clause
If both players have only one Pokemon remaining in battle moves that KO the user, such as Explosion or Destiny Bond, are not allowed. If a player uses a move that causes recoil damage such as Flare Blitz ends the game in both Pokemon fainting, the player that attacked LAST is announced the winner. This is largely because the player knows full well before hand that a move like Flare Blitz will have the chance of fainting their Pokemon. This clause is also available in PBR.

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In addition to the Standard rules, there are also some clauses people may initiate when starting a battle. They include the following:

Item Clause
A Clause heavily enforced by all official Nintendo tournaments. Players are not allowed to have two or more of the same item on any of their Pokemon. Few players will initiate this rule, largely due to leftovers being very popular.

Hax Clause
This Clause bans the use of the items listed below:
- Brightpowder
- Quick Claw
- Focus Band
- King's Rock

The reasoning behind Hax Clause is similar to the Evasion Clause. Either way, most of the time the player using Hax items would get a far larger advantage if they were to use an item like Life Orb or Leftovers.

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Tiers
There are currently six tiers in addition to the aforementioned Ubers Tier. They are Overused (OU),Underused (UU), Borderline (BL), Neverused (NU) and Not Fully Evolved (NFE). A Pokemon's ranking is determined by their overall usage. Obviously, the strongest Pokemon are used the most. Pokemon like Yanmega are strong but they are just not used that often, typically as a result of how other Pokemon are used.

Even though there are six tiers, there are only three styles of gameplay.

"Ubers" enable the usage of every Pokemon available. Obviously, the best Pokemon to use are in the Uber Tier which was previously mentioned.

"Standard" is the style of gameplay most people play with. All Pokemon are permitted to be used in this style of gameplay except for Ubers. This is the default mode every player uses unless the player specifically states that they want to play "Ubers" or "UU"

"UU", or "UU/NU" gameplay is a mode where Uber, OU and BL Pokemon are all banned.

These are the tiers as of April 15 2009.

Overused:
- Aerodactyl
- Alakazam
- Azelf
- Blissey
- Breloom
- Bronzong
- Celebi
- Cresselia
- Donphan
- Dragonite
- Dugtrio
- Dusknoir
- Electivire
- Empoleon
- Flygon
- Forretress
- Gengar
- Gliscor
- Gyarados
- Heatran
- Heracross
- Hippowdon
- Infernape
- Jirachi
- Jolteon
- Lucario
- Machamp
- Magnezone
- Mamoswine
- Metagross
- Ninjask
- Porygon-Z
- Rhyperior
- Salamence
- Scizor
- Skarmory
- Smeargle
- Snorlax
- Starmie
- Suicune
- Swampert
- Tentacruel
- Togekiss
- Tyranitar
- Vaporeon
- Weavile
- Zapdos

Borderline:
- Abomasnow
- Froslass
- Gallade
- Raikou
- Staraptor

Underused:
- Absol
- Altaria
- Ambipom
- Arcanine
- Azumarril
- Blastoise
- Blaziken
- Chansey
- Charizard
- Claydol
- Clefable
- Crobat
- Drapion
- Electrode
- Espeon
- Feraligatr
- Gardevoir
- Hariyama
- Hitmonlee
- Hitmontop
- Honchkrow
- Houndoom
- Kabutops
- Lanturn
- Ludicolo
- Magmortar
- Mesprit
- Milotic
- Miltank
- Mismagius
- Moltres
- Muk
- Nidoking
- Nidoqueen
- Ninetales
- Omastar
- Poliwrath
- Porygon2
- Primeape
- Regirock
- Registeel
- Roserade
- Rotom
- Sceptile
- Scyther
- Shaymin
- Slowbro
- Spiritomb
- Steelix
- Swellow
- Torterra
- Toxicroak
- Typhlosion
- Umbreon
- Uxie
- Venusaur
- Weezing
- Yanmega

Neverused:
- Aggron
- Ampharos
- Arbok
- Ariados
- Armaldo
- Articuno
- Banette
- Bastiodon
- Beautifly
- Beedrill
- Bellossom
- Bibarel
- Butterfree
- Cacturn
- Camerupt
- Carnivine
- Castform
- Chatot
- Cherrim
- Chimecho
- Clamperl
- Cloyster
- Corsola
- Cradily
- Crawdaunt
- Delcatty
- Delibird
- Dewgong
- Ditto
- Dodrio
- Drifblim
- Dunsparce
- Dustox
- Entei
- Exeggutor
- Exploud
- Farfetch'd
- Fearow
- Flareon
- Floatzel
- Furret
- Gastrodon
- Girafarig
- Glaceon
- Glalie
- Golduck
- Golem
- Gorebyss
- Granbull
- Grumpig
- Hitmonchan
- Huntail
- Hypno
- Illumise
- Jumpluff
- Jynx
- Kangaskhan
- Kecleon
- Kingler
- Kricketune
- Lapras
- Leafeon
- Ledian
- Lickilicky
- Linoone
- Lopunny
- Lumineon
- Lunatone
- Luvdisc
- Luxray
- Magcargo
- Manectric
- Mantine
- Marowak
- Masquerain
- Mawile
- Medicham
- Meganium
- Mightyena
- Minun
- Mothim
- Mr. Mime
- Noctowl
- Octillery
- Pachirisu
- Parasect
- Pelipper
- Persian
- Phione
- Pidgeot
- Pikachu
- Pinsir
- Plusle
- Politoed
- Probopass
- Purugly
- Quagsire
- Qwilfish
- Raichu
- Rampardos
- Rapidash
- Raticate
- Regice
- Regigigas
- Relicanth
- Sableye
- Sandslash
- Seaking
- Seviper
- Sharpedo
- Shedinja
- Shiftry
- Shuckle
- Skuntank
- Slaking
- Slowking
- Solrock
- Spinda
- Stantler
- Sudowoodo
- Sunflora
- Swalot
- Tangrowth
- Tauros
- Torkoal
- Trapinch
- Tropius
- Unown
- Ursaring
- Venomoth
- Vespiqueen
- Victreebel
- Vigoroth
- Vileplume
- Volbeat
- Wailord
- Walrein
- Whiscash
- Wigglytuff
- Wormadam (All forms)
- Xatu
- Zangoose

Not Fully Evolved:
Everything else. There's 221 of them, all of which are... not fully evolved. Keep in mind that Chansey, Trapinch, Porygon 2, Dusclops and Scyther are not in this tier despite not being fully evolved.

Well, thats it. These are the rules we all play by. Check Smogon.com for more information. As time progresses, standards change.

Varna

Apr 24th, 2009, 05:37 AM

randomspot555

Apr 24th, 2009, 07:48 AM

Do we have a "dying of laughter" emoticon, here? Because I really, really need one right now. :bidoof:

Just because you don't agree or enjoy Smogon doesn't mean you can deny their importance to the development of the competitive metagame in North America. It's pretty much the only community out there that has established themselves, done research. and had staying. With any other fan sites MIGHT have a small section on competitive battling and a fairly small userbase of battlers.

Varna

Apr 24th, 2009, 07:58 AM

SCV

Apr 24th, 2009, 09:38 AM

Just because you don't agree or enjoy Smogon doesn't mean you can deny their importance to the development of the competitive metagame in North America. It's pretty much the only community out there that has established themselves, done research. and had staying. With any other fan sites MIGHT have a small section on competitive battling and a fairly small userbase of battlers.
Well no community is going to change that if they just say "we'll do whatever smogon says".

We want this to be our community not a copy-cat community. Yes, it will take a while to collect data and do research that other communities have already done. But we'll never get that if we just use someone else's. Sure I could have downloaded veekun's sql files for the pokedex. But I did not because I want OUR dex to be made by US.

For competitive battling we will be making OUR rules and modifying them as WE see fit.

I'll leave this open for now. But I will reserve the right to close it if I don't like how its going.

Guested

Apr 24th, 2009, 12:02 PM

Sabresite

Apr 24th, 2009, 01:25 PM

Mr.Fuji

Apr 24th, 2009, 01:54 PM

As much as I hate to say it, no matter what we do to try and deviate away from smogon competitive battling rules, we will still be influenced by them.

To come to the consensus and to get the data that's been collected, to have these rules requires people, and most importantly, peoples time, people that know what there doing.

Smogon has these people (a few), if we had our own team to try and gather data, using statistics and all the other time consuming shit blah blah blah, if we wanted to have a BALANCED metagame, we'd MOST likely get the same results smogon has been pumping out for years.

I know what i mean in my head.. more clearly than i can type it out here.. but I think just because smogon is the forerunner for these rules and such, we shouldn't feel bad for using them. There to help the entire Pokemon battling community, not just smogons.

And for the people that dont like standard rules, things like sleep clause, tiers etc....come the fuck on seriously, if you want to play COMPETITIVE battles, you need a BALANCED metagame. Why would you ever play someone that uses random ubers with there heatrans and blisseys and puts to sleep half your team in the first few turns...

come on..the rules work, there trying to balance it out so the experience is FUNNER.

randomspot555

Apr 24th, 2009, 01:56 PM

I don't agree with 90% of those rules. While it is true that Game Freak and Nintendo may not have tested every possible scenario for the game, clauses such as the hax clause, and sleep clause are ridiculous.

I don't mind discussion of these rules, but I can promise you that they will never be made official by this website. I also would personally never follow these rules.

Hax Clause isn't standard. But it is a fairly well known and used alternate clause. Regardless of it being enforced or not, any listing of clauses should at least mention it. So that when someone does initiate that clause on a battle request, people can look it up and find it out.

But I don't see why Sleep Clause is ridiculous. It's standard almost anywhere you go, including communities that make their own rules and tiers from the ground up.

I also would like to know how this site is coming up with, for example, the tier list (so far the only thing up original to the site and competiitve battling rules). Yes, I know it's origin (from the old Pokesav forums), but the method of determining what goes where, or even the existance of multiple "middle tier" (BL, NL?) isn't explained.

SCV

Apr 24th, 2009, 02:00 PM

Smogon has these people (a few), if we had our own team to try and gather data, using statistics and all the other time consuming shit blah blah blah, if we wanted to have a BALANCED metagame, we'd MOST likely get the same results smogon has been pumping out for years.

What exactly is the definition of BALANCED metagame?

Neo

Apr 24th, 2009, 02:04 PM

To stop kids complaning about being beat by legendaries
Load of crap to be honest
I find legendaries easier to beat than normal pokemon

randomspot555

Apr 24th, 2009, 02:15 PM

To stop kids complaning about being beat by legendaries
Load of crap to be honest
I find legendaries easier to beat than normal pokemon

"Legendary Pokemon" don't inherently carry an advantage, as far as battling is concerned.

Mr.Fuji

Apr 24th, 2009, 02:26 PM

What exactly is the definition of BALANCED metagame?

Dunno about an official defintion but...You can never counter every threat in the DPPt metagame, there are just too many of them to effectively have a solution, with just six pokemon. By trying to make the metagame balanced..you eliminate the broken aspects so that each player actually has a shot at beating the other. 'Hax' throws a wrench in this though, so things like 'hax' clause try and alleviate this a little.

Of course you gotta know how to construct a well made team to TRY and counter the current metagames top threats, but by removing certain aspects of the game (ex. the tiers), and providing movesets, standard or not, it gives every player a shot at winning in a battle.

Balanced might not even be the right term, maybe Orderly is more correct.

---------- Post added at 02:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:19 PM ----------

To stop kids complaning about being beat by legendaries
Load of crap to be honest
I find legendaries easier to beat than normal pokemon

Legendaries? You mean things like heatran, azelf, celebi jirachi, etc? The ones I just mentioned are all OU.

The only reason someone should complain by being beaten 'legendaries' is if they got beat by an UBER tier legendary pokemon (ex Mewtwo), while they were using a team consisting of pokemon from a lower tier...because well, it's not fair to use Uber tier pokemon against OU/UU/NU's

Even then, why would anyone complain? People should know the rules laid out for a battle there about to get into..

---------- Post added at 02:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 PM ----------

"Legendary Pokemon" don't inherently carry an advantage, as far as battling is concerned.

I'd say they do. If your talking about OU legendary pokemon (azelf, celebi etc..)

There base stats, coupled with there movesets and typings obviously put them above some other pokemon, thats why most legendary pokemon are in high usage.

I assume your talking about JUST OU legendaries because..to say Uber tier pokemon don't inherently carry an advantage over other pokemon is..foolish

Destati

Apr 24th, 2009, 02:32 PM

A Balanced Metagame is where no single Pokemon overwhelms the game and permits the usage of a wide variety of characters. Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix is a balanced metagame. Super Smash Brothers Brawl is not.

The Smogon testing of Garchomp was one such example. Garchomp was being so overused that people needed to create teams solely to be able to counter Garchomp. Of course, no counter was to be found in the end. Even if a Pokemon like Scizor reaches the usage Garchomp was at, Scizor has counters. Heatran, Zapdos, Bulky Waters, etc. There's a lot. After a single Swords Dance, Garchomp had zero.

Anywho, back on topic. Obviously something like that causes an inbalance in the game. So, to remedy it the people who the entire Pokemon community have trusted since their creation performed tests to fix it, and they did. It wasn't one person saying "Oh, Garchomp should be banned," it was a community effort put together by strategists that have proved their worth.

Sleep Clause was never a real problem before Breloom. 100% accuracy with Spore. Yeah, thats fair. Sleep the opponent and just use Focus Punch/Seed Bomb a lot. If it weren't for Sleep Clause Breloom could devastate teams be itself. Its not like Togekiss' paraflinch where its just butthurt (hax), its just not fair.

Not to mention its also an official Nintendo clause that can be activated in PBR...

Also, Nintendo doesn't make competitive games. The community turns their games into competition. If Sakurai really cared about competitive play in Brawl he would have worked on balancing issues far more than he did. 60% of the community wants Metaknight banned, and thats just for SMASHBOARDS where there hardcore players go. Also, Nintendo hasn't banned Garchomp either. To those entering the 2009 Showdown, use Zapdos/Garchomp. Its so powerful its not even funny.

randomspot555

Apr 24th, 2009, 02:33 PM

I'd say they do. If your talking about OU legendary pokemon (azelf, celebi etc..)

All "Legendary Pokemon" are are "A Pokemon deemed Legendary by Gamefreak." While some Legendary are powerful and used a lot (Heatran, Zapdos), so are many non-legends. And some legendary Pokemon just suck (Phione, Articuno)

Mr.Fuji

Apr 24th, 2009, 02:35 PM

All "Legendary Pokemon" are are "A Pokemon deemed Legendary by Gamefreak." While some Legendary are powerful and used a lot (Heatran, Zapdos), so are many non-legends. And some legendary Pokemon just suck (Phione, Articuno)

Saying legendary pokemon is too broad, it'd be easier to state exactly which pokemon your talking about that don't inherently carry an advantage over others (in their respective tier)

Destati

Apr 24th, 2009, 02:36 PM

I also would like to know how this site is coming up with, for example, the tier list (so far the only thing up original to the site and competiitve battling rules). Yes, I know it's origin (from the old Pokesav forums), but the method of determining what goes where, or even the existance of multiple "middle tier" (BL, NL?) isn't explained.

I too would like to see how this forum intends to create its own metagame using nothing but the information random players post on the boards.

Also, another thing, why is it so bad to have a site that uses another site's information? I can understand creating a ProjectPokemon Pokedex (to match Serebii's) and wiki (More hack information than general knowledge like Bulbapedia's), but why go as far as creating a seperate metagame? It can't be a pride issue, nearly everyone hates us (but secretely envies us) anyway. I just can't understand it. Its like a State wanting to be apart of the USA but not wanting to follow the Constitution. California isn't a copycat for using the same laws New York uses. Why would ProjectPokemon be considered a copycat for using what everyone else declares to be Standard Rules?

SCV

Apr 24th, 2009, 02:53 PM

I too would like to see how this forum intends to create its own metagame using nothing but the information random players post on the boards.

Well, give us time. It hasn't even been a month since we opened. We are still doing many things to build Project Pokémon. If you want to help in the effort to build this communitty that would be great. If not then you are still welcome to come here. But you have to realize that each community has the right to use whatever rules they want. We will do what is neccesary to do this right. It will just take time. Like I said its very easy and convenient to just take someone else's research and result. But we like to do our own research. If we arrive at similar results as smogon, then so be it.

Also, another thing, why is it so bad to have a site that uses another site's information? I can understand creating a ProjectPokemon Pokedex (to match Serebii's) and wiki (More hack information than general knowledge like Bulbapedia's), The wiki is not about more "hack" information. Its about more correct information. We get correct information by researching and actually looking at the game's code. As far as I know Bulbapedia does not have anyone with the technical abilities to find and write correct stuff about the game. Me, Sabre and tsanth contibuted some articles there. But why help them when we can make our own?

but why go as far as creating a seperate metagame? It can't be a pride issue, nearly everyone hates us (but secretely envies us) anyway. I just can't understand it. Its like a State wanting to be apart of the USA but not wanting to follow the Constitution. California isn't a copycat for using the same laws New York uses. Why would ProjectPokemon be considered a copycat for using what everyone else declares to be Standard Rules?Well as far as me, it might be that I am a mathematician (as a few smogon people are as well). I don't take things on faith unless they have to be taken on faith. Every site is free to choose to use someone else's rules or not. Its up to them and if we opt to use something we develop, then that is our decision to make. Just because "everyone else" does something doesn't mean that we should as well. Like I said, if our research takes us to the same or very similar results that is fine. But it will be because we put effort into it.

As for your example, this is not the same case. Smogon is not "The Pokemon Community", they are A pokemon community. We are joining the world of pokemon communities, not smogon. We are therefore not required to follow their "constitution".

Silent Storm

Apr 24th, 2009, 03:00 PM

In terms of tier lists and stuff, I can help this community construct one.

Aeternus

Apr 24th, 2009, 03:52 PM

Self KO Clause
If both players have only one Pokemon remaining in battle moves that KO the user, such as Explosion or Destiny Bond, are not allowed. If a player uses a move that causes recoil damage such as Flare Blitz ends the game in both Pokemon fainting, the player that attacked LAST is announced the winner.

Sorry for inherent n00b-ness, but does the bolded part mean that the user of the recoil move wins?

Say my opponent and I both have 1 Pokemon left. He has an Abomasnow, I have an Infernape; Abomasnow has, say, three/fourths of his health, but I have 10HP. I use Flare Blitz. I knocks out Abomasnow, but I also faint from recoil. Do I win?

Destati

Apr 24th, 2009, 04:32 PM

Aeternus, Abomasnow would win.

Basically, its your "fault" for using a move that caused recoil damage. You knew full well that your Infernape would lose. In a way, its like exploding. You're taking the enemy down at the cost of your Pokemon. If a situation like that occurs on Wifi I believe its a Tie. In PBR, you have the option to turn on the clause. I believe what it does is that it prevents the player from using Explosion if they only have one Pokemon left. Otherwise it ends up in a draw.

You did nothing wrong in choosing Flare Blitz to be a part of Infernape's moveset so don't think that you're wrong. But by choosing Flare Blitz you know full well that those situations might happen. There's a very slim chance of it happening like that, but it exists nonetheless.

SCV, ever heard the quote "Jack of all trades, Master of none"? Well, thats what this site will turn into if we follow your mentality. Smogon litterally has an army of people to get things done. As I said, their statistics are based off of hundreds of thousands of battles. We don't even have 1000 members yet. they have 28k, and thats not including those who just play Shoddy and don't have forum accounts.

Its not a one-man job to make a tier list. Its a thousand-man effort.

Smogon is not "THE" Pokemon community, but its apart of it. They use Serebii for Pokedex information, Bulbapedia for Event and non-mechanic information and Metalkid/Psypokes for calculator knowledge. At the same time, those respective sites use each other for information as well. Gamefaqs gets their knowledge from everywhere. Thats the Pokemon community. We're the ones that are selfish and attempting to create our own community. There's already one thats been set up for years and years. I really don't see the point in creating one that competes with it.

Marrilland tried creating its own community. Its known to every non-Marriland user as a shithole. Libelldra tried a similar thing. It was expected to compete with Smogon. Now the forums get a total of three posts per day. The only good thing they have on that site is the team builder that counts your team's weaknesses and resistances. I really don't want Project Pokemon to be known for one thing, and thats a site where you can download events from. Do you?

ZMaster

Apr 24th, 2009, 04:40 PM

Okami

Apr 24th, 2009, 04:55 PM

come on..the rules work, there trying to balance it out so the experience is FUNNER.

More. Fun.

Everything looked good until that point. Sorry to burst any bubbles. That's just one thing I don't tolerate very easily. :kikkoman:

Destati

Apr 24th, 2009, 04:58 PM

Destati, I want to ask you. Why are you on this site if you support Smogon so much? *Just asking*

Because they are right. They created a balanced gameplay everyone can enjoy. There's no reason not to like Smogon (unless one of your favorite Pokemon is banned of course)

Second of all, how battles are done depends on the two (or four) people battling; Unless you just want EVERYONE SINGLE PERSON in this forum (or any other forum), to follow the same specific rules.

Every other forum follows Smogon. Every forum but us. If you want to have a free-for-all battle with no strings attached, go do it. Problem is, you're not going to get a lot of takers. You'll essentially be constrained to these forums because no one else will want to face a pokemon like Garchomp.

I completely agree with SCV. In my point of view, Project Pokemon is just trying to do their own thing, their own way. Is it so wrong to do things a bit differently? The owners of Project Pokemon can do whatever they want, seeing as they, basically, own this site.

Its wrong because thats not how everyone else wants to play and they have no basis for their assumptions. Lets take Manaphy for example. Greencat still refuses to take Manaphy off of the OU list. Why? Who knows. I on the other hand, can provide you with detailed reasons why Manaphy is Uber and breaks the Metagame.

And again, I don't know what specifically annoys people about Smogon. I still feel like people here hate Smogon solely because they feel like they need to compete with something.

wraith89

Apr 24th, 2009, 05:07 PM

All "Legendary Pokemon" are are "A Pokemon deemed Legendary by Gamefreak." While some Legendary are powerful and used a lot (Heatran, Zapdos), so are many non-legends. And some legendary Pokemon just suck (Phione, Articuno)

I beg to differ about Articuno. Yes, I realize Articuno isn't as privileged as the other birds (blatant favoritism on Zapdos on Gamefreak's part... really) but Articuno has been able to stall bulky waters and beat some others 1 on 1... and with spin support with Claydol Articuno has worked wonders. You just need to play Articuno right... but those Stealth Rocks hurt >_<

I really don't agree with some of Smogon's rules though... and they have been trying to get rid of the BL tier for ages... but I don't know... why would they drop everything to the UU tier and then make a NU filled with some stuff that could destroy that tier (looks at Articuno and Marowak and Tauros)? Or is it all based on usage?

Destati

Apr 24th, 2009, 05:15 PM

Lets take some examples from this site already

http://www.projectpokemon.org/forums/showthread.php?t=846

Doc, like every other person, expected a regular fight abiding to the Standard rules. Kunaidude comes along and accepts his challenge. The battle is cut short as soon as Kunaidude sends out Groudon, Garchomp and Darkrai. While Kunaidude is yelling about something in broken English, I step in to teach them both about standard battling. Now they are both better. In the end, Doc wears out because no one is abiding to the rules. Everyone is using Pokemon that decimate his team and overcentralize the metagame.

Then its followed by Greencat saying something against what I was trying to teach.

http://www.projectpokemon.org/forums/showthread.php?t=630

Another battle thread, made by GREENCAT of all people. Despite not knowing that Rotom Forms can't be used online, it looks like a regular battle. By "OU" people immediately think of Smogon's OU list. Also, instead of saying all that stuff though, one could easily say "Standard Rules."

http://www.projectpokemon.org/forums/showthread.php?t=241

Simple battle thread. He said Ubers were permitted, so they used Ubers in their fights. Typical Smogon rules.

Whenever someone says "Standard Rules," they always mean as SCV calls it, "Smogon's Rules"

Varna

Apr 24th, 2009, 05:18 PM

Because they are right. They created a balanced gameplay everyone can enjoy. There's no reason not to like Smogon (unless one of your favorite Pokemon is banned of course)

Every other forum follows Smogon. Every forum but us. If you want to have a free-for-all battle with no strings attached, go do it. Problem is, you're not going to get a lot of takers. You'll essentially be constrained to these forums because no one else will want to face a pokemon like Garchomp.

Its wrong because thats not how everyone else wants to play and they have no basis for their assumptions. Lets take Manaphy for example. Greencat still refuses to take Manaphy off of the OU list. Why? Who knows. I on the other hand, can provide you with detailed reasons why Manaphy is Uber and breaks the Metagame.

And again, I don't know what specifically annoys people about Smogon. I still feel like people here hate Smogon solely because they feel like they need to compete with something.

Why do you feel that people here hate Smogon? Well, I can't speak for everyone, but listen to yourself talk for a little while and you'll understand.

This "thousand man effort" thing you have in your head is far from the truth, honestly. A few contributors mull over the numbers that their shoddy servers spit out, and make decisions based off that. It isn't everyone "taking a vote" so to speak. =p

Oh, and as for "Every other forum" following Smogon... that's funny, I go to quite a few places that don't. :B

Destati

Apr 24th, 2009, 05:27 PM

I really don't agree with some of Smogon's rules though... and they have been trying to get rid of the BL tier for ages... but I don't know... why would they drop everything to the UU tier and then make a NU filled with some stuff that could destroy that tier (looks at Articuno and Marowak and Tauros)? Or is it all based on usage?

In the end, UU play is just composed of the Pokemon not strong enough for OU play.

It is based off of usage, but its also not. Heatran is used a lot. Why? Because he's good. However, someone like Milotic isn't used a lot. Why? Not because Milotic isn't good, its because thanks to the Hypnosis nerf she's been outclassed by the other Bulky Waters.

You can always use Milotic in OU if you want. RestTalk still works nicely and is still an unexpected approach. Every tier will have those "always used" Pokemon. OU has Scizor, Latias, Heatran and others. UU has Marrowak, Articuno and others as well. But like the OU threats, they can also be counterd. Try Kabutops on for size. That thing should decimate Articuno.

---------- Post added at 05:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 PM ----------

This "thousand man effort" thing you have in your head is far from the truth, honestly. A few contributors mull over the numbers that their shoddy servers spit out, and make decisions based off that. It isn't everyone "taking a vote" so to speak. =p

The highest ranking people on suspect ladders get to vote on large tests such as Latias, Garchomp and Skymin. They've proven that they're the best at battling and that they know whether or not a certain Pokemon is too difficult to handle.

Frankly, I can't expect this forum to generate a discussion like this

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36558

But I can expect this forum to push it aside because there's too much stuff to read.

Oh, and as for "Every other forum" following Smogon... that's funny, I go to quite a few places that don't. :B

Name them and I'll judge their credibility in the Pokemon community.

Greencat

Apr 24th, 2009, 06:01 PM

Woah, a lot of disscusion. Mhh, I can't post a large post at the moment since I'm using my phone, but the site is fairly new and needs more time before creating its own rules, standards and more.

Varna

Apr 24th, 2009, 06:06 PM

The highest ranking people on suspect ladders get to vote on large tests such as Latias, Garchomp and Skymin. They've proven that they're the best at battling and that they know whether or not a certain Pokemon is too difficult to handle.

Frankly, I can't expect this forum to generate a discussion like this

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36558

But I can expect this forum to push it aside because there's too much stuff to read.

Name them and I'll judge their credibility in the Pokemon community.

The highest ranking people are not always the most well versed.

You keep bitching about how "you can't expect this forum to live up to Smogon", so what's keeping you here, hm? Why don't you run along quietly now and complain to your buddies over yonder that people on a different forum don't agree with your Bible? :(

And I won't even humor myself by giving out my other forum locales. I already know you'd just brush them off anyways, and you seem to think that there is ONE POKEMON COMMUNITY TO RULE THEM ALL, so there isn't any point.

damio

Apr 24th, 2009, 06:43 PM

Name them and I'll judge their credibility in the Pokemon community.
Since when are you the person that decides whether or not a website is a good community?

You say that smogon has more members than us, yet you don't compare how long each has been up, or how many of those members joined and left.

EDIT: I just had a look, and after 1 month (longer than this site has been up) it only had 169 members.

Also, almost half of its current members have made 5 or less posts.

randomspot555

Apr 24th, 2009, 06:43 PM

While I don't agree with Destati completely, he does have a point. Making our own tier list is one thing. Among different communities can result in different forms of centralization. In Japan, Cresselia is seen in the same light as Scizor, Heatran, or Tyranitar is seen here. The Wi-Fi environment will have a much less focus on legendary one-off Pokemon, and Celebi and Jirachi and event exclusive, because they're harder to obtain legit versions of that also are competitively viable.

But making new clauses (or, by the looks of the posts of many of the admins) or advocating fewer or no clauses isn't something I'd look for in a battling community. As Destati pointed out, Smogon is the only site out there (in English anyway) to focus exclusively on making a competitive environment out of Pokemon. And they've done it with the closest form of "evidene" you can get, with battle statistics being tracked on Shoddy and making sure it simulates the battle in-game as much as possible.

While communities should be free to do whatever they want in regards to their own battling communities, most of them that do usually are just theory-monning. Which really isn't a great way to justify rules, tiers, etc...

Just because this site strives to make it's own doesn't mean what other sites have done should be dismissed. A good idea is a good idea, regardless of where it came from.

Greencat

Apr 24th, 2009, 06:55 PM

I have skimmed through this. Destati, the site is new. It hasn't been a month, and you have to remember Smogon has been up for more than 3 years. So it should have thousands of members. We are actually doing VERY well with the amount of people joining this month.

In case you don't know, it took about 7 Months for Smogon to get at least a thousand members! It's only been about 3 weeks here and we are already at almost a 1000. Also, Smogon only had about 170 members the first month.

:)

wraith89

Apr 24th, 2009, 07:15 PM

In the end, UU play is just composed of the Pokemon not strong enough for OU play.

It is based off of usage, but its also not. Heatran is used a lot. Why? Because he's good. However, someone like Milotic isn't used a lot. Why? Not because Milotic isn't good, its because thanks to the Hypnosis nerf she's been outclassed by the other Bulky Waters.

You can always use Milotic in OU if you want. RestTalk still works nicely and is still an unexpected approach. Every tier will have those "always used" Pokemon. OU has Scizor, Latias, Heatran and others. UU has Marrowak, Articuno and others as well. But like the OU threats, they can also be counterd. Try Kabutops on for size. That thing should decimate Articuno.

Yeah, I see that with the usage and good correlation thing. I always thought Milotic is OU... even if the Hypnosis accuracy dropped. For one thing, Milotic has an instant recovery move (so does Slowbro, but being part Psychic somewhat hurts). Marvel Scale is a good trait too and base 100 special attack and 125 special defense isn't too bad either. I don't see why she's UU... she's served as a reliable counter to some dragons and others. Yes, I realize Choice Banded attacks can 2HKO Milotic and Sandstream weakens her Surf on Tyranitar, but still... something like Milotic being in UU makes no sense to me. Hypnosis accuracy drop really affected frail things like Yanmega and Gengar more. Milotic can still take some hits and do some good damage, even without Hypnosis. This thing, UU? No way. Just give me Blastoise and Quagsire any day for Bulky Water needs in UU. Milotic just tears that tier apart.

And I wouldn't stay on a rock type with Articuno anyways (unless I mispredict and switch in something that's Rock resistant and Kabutops uses Waterfall >_<). It's all about teamplay, not a single thing that can take down everyone. Articuno has plenty in her arsenal to support the team, like Reflect and Heal Bell (the latter from XD, but they give Zapdos BATON PASS?!). And again, I blame Gamefreak for favoring Zapdos and looking down on Articuno. That has been blatant ever since Generation I.

I wouldn't conform this community to Smogon. Smogon has their tier list, this place has its own... I do agree with some of their rules though like Sleep Clause, I'll give you that. But this place shouldn't be a copycat of another site.

SCV

Apr 24th, 2009, 07:55 PM

SCV, ever heard the quote "Jack of all trades, Master of none"? Well, thats what this site will turn into if we follow your mentality. Smogon litterally has an army of people to get things done. As I said, their statistics are based off of hundreds of thousands of battles. We don't even have 1000 members yet. they have 28k, and thats not including those who just play Shoddy and don't have forum accounts.

Its not a one-man job to make a tier list. Its a thousand-man effort.We are not trying to instantly have that many members or come up with something as developed as smogon. It will take time. I also think that one site can be the "master" of all trades, which is part of the reason I am here. People should not have to go to 4 different pokemon sites. However, there are very few people that can pull it off. I know we can.

Smogon is not "THE" Pokemon community, but its apart of it. They use Serebii for Pokedex information, Bulbapedia for Event and non-mechanic information and Metalkid/Psypokes for calculator knowledge. At the same time, those respective sites use each other for information as well. Gamefaqs gets their knowledge from everywhere. Thats the Pokemon community. We're the ones that are selfish and attempting to create our own community. There's already one thats been set up for years and years. I really don't see the point in creating one that competes with it.Yes we are trying to create a community where everyone can come, rather than specializing.

Marrilland tried creating its own community. Its known to every non-Marriland user as a shithole. Libelldra tried a similar thing. It was expected to compete with Smogon. Now the forums get a total of three posts per day. The only good thing they have on that site is the team builder that counts your team's weaknesses and resistances. I really don't want Project Pokemon to be known for one thing, and thats a site where you can download events from. Do you?So what exactly makes you think we will fail? Trust me it will take some time but we will not fail. What are the qualifications of those people that would mean that they would succeed? and actually I would wish that people did not see this site as the place to download events or to download pokesav. You have shown that you do not understand the purpose of Project Pokemon when you said that this place is devoted to hacking of pokemon games and that's not it.

Doc

Apr 24th, 2009, 08:02 PM

i see the poster child avoids the NFE list, whats up with that, ok hes still a NU but pikachu sucks and hes not even fully evolved.

wraith89

Apr 24th, 2009, 08:22 PM

i see the poster child avoids the NFE list, whats up with that, ok hes still a NU but pikachu sucks and hes not even fully evolved.

Some NFEs are allowed in tier lists because they play differently. The reason why Pikachu is in NU is because it can carry Light Ball, thus dealing more damage than Raichu. It's like a NU Deoxys-A. (Pikachu = my least favorite Pokemon... but that's besides the point).

We also have Trapinch for Arena Trap, Clamperl for DeepSeaTooth doing the same exact thing as Pikachu with Light Ball (except only for special attack), Scyther for being the faster but weaker version of Scizor (both have same BSTs but aligned in different areas and different typing), Vigoroth for playing differently from Slaking (but he's still worse than Zangoose) and the awesome Porygon2 for being a Salamence/Gyarados deterrent (Porygon-Z lacks the defenses and the Trace ability).

Now I don't know if they'll ever do OU-lite, such as allowing Haunter, Kadabra, Snover, Hippopotas and Chansey in UU or something. Somehow, I doubt it.

SCV

Apr 24th, 2009, 08:27 PM

Also for the record I have nothing against smogon. I think they have many talented and intelligent members. I have never denied any of their members help when they PM me in the forums or IRC. Soon I will start some research and I will probably read one of their threads a the base and they will receive proper credit for writing that, but in the end the results will all be obtained directly from the game.
That said, I just don't think that we are obligated to follow their rules. Is that a crime? Also I just remembered that Serebii doesn't follow smogon either. Just curious as to your opinions on that.

Doc

Apr 24th, 2009, 08:29 PM

wraith89

Apr 24th, 2009, 08:33 PM

yeah the others make sense but ive always hated pikachu and i still think hes useless even with the light ball and event pikachu movesets, this is just a long running hatred i have for that useless... gerbil... rat... whatever.

Hating Pikachu is one thing (I hate it too... and I especially don't like a LOT but not all of electric Pokemon but I do like Raichu)... but you can't deny that he can be powerful with that Light Ball and 90 speed. Somewhat like people hating Blissey (I don't btw). They try to pretend there are better options for walling special attacks, but no one does the job better than Blissey.

Speaking of events... check out this novelty Pikachu event (http://libelldra.com/community/forums/topic/4496/pikachu-to-acquire-yawn-via-event/).

Also for the record I have nothing against smogon. I think they have many talented and intelligent members. I have never denied any of their members help when they PM me in the forums or IRC. Soon I will start some research and I will probably read one of their threads a the base and they will receive proper credit for writing that, but in the end the results will all be obtained directly from the game.
That said, I just don't think that we are obligated to follow their rules. Is that a crime? Also I just remembered that Serebii doesn't follow smogon either. Just curious as to your opinions on that.

Agreed. Smogon does have intelligent people but no one is obligated to follow someone else just because they said so.

BTW... SCV = SCV from Starcraft?

Silent Storm

Apr 24th, 2009, 08:39 PM

Actually, right now Serebii follows Smogon, a Mod said that their attempt at a list around the DP Era failed because of a bias against OU titans such as Blissey, Salamence, Tyranitar and friends plys no meaningful disscusion came from it.

SCV

Apr 24th, 2009, 08:45 PM

BTW... SCV = SCV from Starcraft?
SCV= Several Complex Variables. Its my research area in Math. You might see SCVgeo floating around hat means SCV was taken. geo is for my focus within SCV being geometry.

Actually, right now Serebii follows Smogon, a Mod said that their attempt at a list around the DP Era failed because of a bias against OU titans such as Blissey, Salamence, Tyranitar and friends plys no meaningful disscusion came from it.
link please?

Silent Storm

Apr 24th, 2009, 09:06 PM

Can't right now (on Wii) but the thread where I saw the post was named "changes to 4th gen battling" or something like that in the 4th Gen WiFi Center there.

randomspot555

Apr 24th, 2009, 10:13 PM

^^^That thread was originally made so all the whining about Garchomp should go there. Now it's mainly use to discuss battle stats and, when they emerge, new sets.

Also I just remembered that Serebii doesn't follow smogon either. Just curious as to your opinions on that.

SPPF's Battle Forum is word-for-word standard clauses (Sleep/Species/OHKO/Evasion) and they add Hax Items to their banned list in their list of Standard Rules.

Their competitive RMT forum follows Smogon rules to a T, mainly because many of them are mainly Shoddy battlers.

There's been attempts at building an SPPF tier, but it consisted of about 5 people who were sort of trying and a bunch of other people just doing +1 post count. And for the huge attempt to be different, it turned out largely the same with a few exceptions. And it wasn't backed by any evidence besides theory-mon.

SCV

Apr 24th, 2009, 10:27 PM

I see. I had not read this post by Serebii correctly (or did not remember what it said correctly): http://www.serebiiforums.com/showpost.php?p=9521273&postcount=18

randomspot555

Apr 24th, 2009, 10:37 PM

I see. I had not read this post by Serebii correctly (or did not remember what it said correctly): http://www.serebiiforums.com/showpost.php?p=9521273&postcount=18

Oh, he's referencing the weekly article Pokemon of the Week, which is a weekly article that mainly deals with competitive aspects of a Pokemon.

http://serebii.net/potw/

By the looks of it, the last one was done in 2007.

As far as I can tell, Serebii has little to no involvement with the forums outside of what I imagine are the administrative duties. I don't think I've ever read a post of his in the Battle Forum or Competitive RMT, at least not in recent memory.

SCV

Apr 24th, 2009, 11:53 PM

Ok, we have decided that we will start out using smogon's tiers for a while. We will set up our a shoddy server so we can collect our own data, then if necessary we will diverge.

Enkidu

Apr 25th, 2009, 12:00 AM

Oh, so we're going to host our own shoddy server? I didn't know we could do that, coolio. I haven't competitive battled in a while. :D I'm looking forward to fighting you guys .

randomspot555

Apr 25th, 2009, 12:08 AM

I guess I'll finally have to download Shoddy.

SwitzaHouse

Apr 25th, 2009, 12:11 AM

I have my doubts about the rules of the current meta-game, I always thought that the clauses only make certain PKMN useless, no OHKOs then Study on Donphan and Skarmory is useless, too many hypnosis usage then have a PKMN with Insomnia, or use Worry Seed. Examples like this come to mind when looking at the current standard meta-game. Of course I give it up to Smogon for all their hard work don't get me wrong, but I find that it hinders the unpredictable and near unlimited game play. I have yet to determine if that is a good thing or not.

I have thought a good idea would be to set grades (A - D) to PKMN out of their tiers. Then set limit to how many A grade PKMN can be on one team, then how many B grade PKMN can be on a team and so on. (Of course I still believe some PKMN, like certain Uber tier PKMN still need restrictions) I may not be describing it very well but I see it as a way to try and have more usable PKMN in the meta-game then now as well as keeping aspects of PKMN that are, for lack of a better phrase, tossed to the side or just over looked in the present meta-game, like certain abilities and moves.

(Of course this idea would take a great deal of time, testing and tweaking but I feel could work)

Enkidu

Apr 25th, 2009, 12:19 AM

SCV

Apr 25th, 2009, 07:42 AM

Thats basically what chinese rules are, except they use Base stats to determine that.

Whats more important though is how can we contest rules just because we think they are wrong, without any evidence to back up our claims? I'm not saying " WE MUST USE SMOGONS LIST" But saying its absolute twash because YOU don't agree with it without any proof is ridiculous. I never said we HAVE to use it, but throwing it away without any better reason than " I THINK X" is no way to go about it.
The point was not that we think they are wrong. Its that we are not under any obligation to follow anyone else's rules. We still aren't, and once we start collecting our own data we will be updating the tier lists, etc based on that and not on smogon's results.

ZMaster

Apr 25th, 2009, 09:41 AM

Just because this site strives to make it's own doesn't mean what other sites have done should be dismissed. A good idea is a good idea, regardless of where it came from.

You completely agreed to what Destati is trying to say. To tell you the truth, I've never heard of Smogon until recently, where Destati kept talking about it in this forum. I don't hate Smogon, or anything they do; I just hate how people keep trying to influence Smogon everywhere.

*I've realized that in every forum, there is always 1, 2 or 3 (usually no higher) who always try to introduce another forum's rules etc into another*

wraith89

Apr 25th, 2009, 10:20 AM

You completely agreed to what Destati is trying to say. To tell you the truth, I've never heard of Smogon until recently, where Destati kept talking about it in this forum. I don't hate Smogon, or anything they do; I just hate how people keep trying to influence Smogon everywhere.

*I've realized that in every forum, there is always 1, 2 or 3 (usually no higher) who always try to introduce another forum's rules etc into another*

Are there really those types of people? Frankly, I think Smogon is very smart and does know a lot about competitive battling and gives very good movesets and EV spreads for every usable Pokemon (they even have a novelty page for Kakuna in D/P, check it out, I LOL'd) and made some good clauses to prevent things like Spore to be spammed everywhere, but I don't agree that every community should just conform to what they do. Smogon isn't wrong (although I will disagree with some of their tiering placements), but other than that... pushing Smogon in somewhat limits our thinking, don't you think? Like let's look at Victreebel's page. They don't mention a Swords Dance moveset... which could easily be done now with Swords Dance, Sucker Punch, Return/Body Slam (the latter traded from FR/LG) and Leaf Blade. You can devise your own movesets and play creatively too... but no need to push Smogon's rules everywhere.

Okami

Apr 25th, 2009, 12:03 PM

SCV= Several Complex Variables. Its my research area in Math. You might see SCVgeo floating around hat means SCV was taken. geo is for my focus within SCV being geometry.

Wow, I'm impressed, SCV. :) I'm not a math person by any means, as it's been my worst subject for as long as I can remember. I ended up with a C in the semester that I took of Geometry...which I then switched for Psychology. I'm much more of a human-interests person :D

That's so cool, though. I've always wanted to understand math like that, but it just has never clicked, as much as I've wanted it to.

Sorry to deter from the conversation. Please, by all means, continue. :]

Poryhack

Apr 25th, 2009, 12:06 PM

I've been lurking here but haven't replied yet because I feel a bit underqualified.

I'd just like to make sure the point was made: We will start with Smogon's rules, if there is a significant movement to change a part of them it will be changed. Not having any experience with this, I don't know what to expect as far as that happening or not.

I've seen a few people encouraging far less rules, and despite my inexperience I can see that that is not the way to go. A no-rules free for all might be fun every now and then, but building an entire forum off it sounds like a bad idea.

wraith89

Apr 25th, 2009, 12:07 PM

randomspot555

Apr 25th, 2009, 01:45 PM

You completely agreed to what Destati is trying to say.

Except I didn't. TLDR version is I'm saying don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

What I have adovcated for is that we have soem actual method of justifying what clauses we set and where we place tiers, because up until now it was largely just theory-mon, which has been the downfall of many original tier lists. But it looks like we'll be testing on Shoddy, which will give us meaningful statistics to base everything off of. Problem solved.

(Also, it'll finally give me a reason to download and learn Shoddy).

I just hate how people keep trying to influence Smogon everywhere.

There's really not much to "influence." For better or for worse, Smogon is the only fan site out there that's focused on competitive aspect of Pokemon. Sure, there's some random forums that deviate either a bit or drastically from what standards Smogon has set, but they are largely because of theory-mon rather than any actual evidence that it should be different.

*I've realized that in every forum, there is always 1, 2 or 3 (usually no higher) who always try to introduce another forum's rules etc into another*

Please don't put words in my mouth, because I've never done anything like that.

and gives very good movesets and EV spreads for every usable Pokemon

Frankly, many of their spreads need at least a bit of modifications. Some are just completely awful. When I first started playing competitively, I'd just use whatever was on the first for any Pokemon's page. But then I started modifying some EVs, using other moves, or using slightly gimmicky sets, and I learned a lot more about building a team rather than using the "Best" set for each individual Pokemon.

A no-rules free for all might be fun every now and then, but building an entire forum off it sounds like a bad idea.

I actually started out playing without any clauses besides "No legends" (what an idiot I was).

If I lose a match because I wasn't prepared for a threat (Sub-seed, Focus Punch, Spore Breloom has destroyed TWO of my teams recently. Worse off, it was from the same opponent), that's fine, I can live with that. It's a learning experience. But if I lose a match because Sing hits two Pokemon that want to sleep until next week and a OHKO move takes out a wall that I made to take a lot of hits, I just end up angry.

It's like the difference between a challenging video game and a frustrating video game. A challenging video game will motivate me to finish it and complete it, no matter how hard it may get. A frustrating video game, like say Maximum Carnage will just make me want to destroy my SNES because you can play perfectly and still get destroyed.

wraith89

Apr 25th, 2009, 04:47 PM

Frankly, many of their spreads need at least a bit of modifications. Some are just completely awful. When I first started playing competitively, I'd just use whatever was on the first for any Pokemon's page. But then I started modifying some EVs, using other moves, or using slightly gimmicky sets, and I learned a lot more about building a team rather than using the "Best" set for each individual Pokemon.

Yeah, I realize. Not everything is perfected... and frankly, those 252/252/6 EV spreads are quite boring. I actually did take out three Pokemon with gimmicky sets... only because they were least expecting it.

Varna

Apr 26th, 2009, 07:49 AM

If I lose a match because I wasn't prepared for a threat (Sub-seed, Focus Punch, Spore Breloom has destroyed TWO of my teams recently. Worse off, it was from the same opponent), that's fine, I can live with that. It's a learning experience. But if I lose a match because Sing hits two Pokemon that want to sleep until next week and a OHKO move takes out a wall that I made to take a lot of hits, I just end up angry.

Use Lum Berrys. Or Pokémon with abilities that counteract those moves. I've never seen the excuse "well it's cheap!!!11" to be anything more than garbage when the game clearly gives you options against those strategies. They really don't need to be banned simply based on emotion. Ship up or ship out, I always say.

randomspot555

Apr 26th, 2009, 11:41 AM

Use Lum Berrys. Or Pokémon with abilities that counteract those moves. I've never seen the excuse "well it's cheap!!!11" to be anything more than garbage when the game clearly gives you options against those strategies. They really don't need to be banned simply based on emotion. Ship up or ship out, I always say.

Please don't straw man my posts. If you want to actually respond, do so. But don't turn them into some Internet slang sound bite and put words into my mouth.

Varna

Apr 26th, 2009, 02:59 PM

Please don't straw man my posts. If you want to actually respond, do so. But don't turn them into some Internet slang sound bite and put words into my mouth.

It wasn't my intention to put words in your mouth. I was just giving the general example of the common mindset for clauses like those.

KazoWAR

Apr 26th, 2009, 03:20 PM

wraith89

Apr 26th, 2009, 03:32 PM

Smogon was good back in the day, but it just seems like their tiers just get more F'd up every day. A good example is the NU tier, tons and tons of the so called NU pokemon are viable in the UU. The only reason they are there is because ever since they got rid of the BL tier, everyone started UU battleing using all the Over Powered BL pokemon in UU.

Quoted for truth... I guess. I question their placement of Tauros, Marowak, Articuno... and some others. But give them time... I'm sure they'll sort things out. I don't know why they were campaigning so much to get rid of the BL tier though... sure, it's "useless" by competitive means, but still... it made more sense to me than an NU tier dominated by those giants.

One of their biggest mistakes back then was sending Aerodactyl to UU.

randomspot555

Apr 26th, 2009, 04:07 PM

It wasn't my intention to put words in your mouth.

Then you could've done so without quoting me.

I was just giving the general example of the common mindset for clauses like those.

There's a difference between countering a strategy used on a team, and building a team just to counter one centralizing strategy. With Sleep clause off, it limits the type of Pokemon that can be used. And then if you have to build a huge chunk of a team just to counter all the Spore and Hypnosis and Choice Scarf Dark Void Smeargles (if in Doubles) users, then you only have 2 or 3 Pokemon to counter everything else.

There's nothing inherently wrong with any strategy. Even OHKO (which is something I hope we can test soon). But when a strategy ends up centralizing team building, it then creates a stale competitive field, like when Garchomp was still in OU. If people won't make modifications to their team just because they need to make sure to be able to counter everything, then we're going to end up with a handful of Pokemon running rampant and the other 470 being left at the side.

Varna

Apr 27th, 2009, 05:38 AM

If people won't make modifications to their team just because they need to make sure to be able to counter everything, then we're going to end up with a handful of Pokemon running rampant and the other 470 being left at the side.

Perhaps, but I'd argue that's a problem with the users and not the game. =p

Destati

Apr 28th, 2009, 08:41 PM

I leave for like two days and this thread turns into ****.

SCV

Apr 29th, 2009, 01:57 PM

I leave for like two days and this thread turns into dust.

Please explain? How did it turn to dust?

Destati

Apr 29th, 2009, 05:15 PM

SCV

Apr 29th, 2009, 05:22 PM

Well, you see, when moderators edit my posts they tend to replace a lot of my words with other words.

Mostly it feels like people are just arguing rather than asking questions. Smogon exists for a REASON. They're correct and people like me are here to help explain why they're correct.
I see exactly 1 post edited and that is the first post which I edited to change the title. I don't see where a lot of your words got replaced.

Also I would like a response to: http://projectpokemon.org/forums/showpost.php?p=10198&postcount=35

Now, answer me this:

Why do you trust the results of a particular group of people who get their stats from users using a particular program that is not built on reverse engineering? Shoddy is built from experimental results and trial, etc. Meaning incorrect implementations will affect battles to be different than if people were battling using a DS and hence people will adjust their teams to that environment. This may or may not be close to what the rules should be for people not using shoddy.

What you can trust is that we will find out all game mechanics for each move and modify shoddy to work as the game does.

Another things that makes a potential difference is that you can make the perfect team on shoddy and many people will battle with those, but those teams may or may not be feasible for people not using shoddy. So why should the stats for people who can make any team they want affect people who are playing with a DS on wi-fi and not using pokesav to make their teams?

randomspot555

Apr 29th, 2009, 05:31 PM

Before I post, Destati, the only edit to any of your posts (on this page) I see is from yourself.

Why do you trust the results of a particular group of people who get their stats from users using a particular program that is not built on reverse engineering? Shoddy is built from experimental results and trial, etc. Meaning incorrect implementations will affect battles to be different than if people were battling using a DS and hence people will adjust their teams to that environment. This may or may not be close to what the rules should be for people not using shoddy.

This is certainly true, to an extent. Any Pokemon who relies on Hidden Power too heavily won't be nearly as effective in the Wi-Fi environment, since breeding for/soft re-setting for one that is a good type, high powered, AND with a good nature is a pain. With Wi-Fi battlers who breed like myself, a decent Hidden Power is more like a bonus than a necessity. It's really only useful for those with x4 weaknesses. Otherwise, a good powered STAB hitting for neutral damage comes pretty close to HP whatever hitting for x2.

This also goes, to a more limited extent, on how effective legendary Pokemon are, especially those in the uber environment. Even moreso for event exclusive or near-exclusive Pokemon. I don't remember the last time I saw a Celebi or Jirachi on a Wi-Fi battle.

I'll leave this thread open for a bit longer. But Smogon doesn't have too many big tests going on right now, if any.

And hopefully our own testing will begin soon, and that'll be a great topic of conversation.

SCV

Apr 29th, 2009, 05:49 PM

And hopefully our own testing will begin soon, and that'll be a great topic of conversation.
Well, now, I am not too sure about that: in between when I posted this: http://projectpokemon.org/forums/showpost.php?p=10292&postcount=47

and now, Colin posted this: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54147

Any opinions on how we should proceed?

randomspot555

Apr 29th, 2009, 06:01 PM

Well, now, I am not too sure about that: in between when I posted this: http://projectpokemon.org/forums/showpost.php?p=10292&postcount=47

and now, Colin posted this: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54147

Any opinions on how we should proceed?

That's an interesting post.

(keep in mind, to all that might be reading, I've never played on Shoddy)

Honestly, when summer hits and people aren't presumably taken up so much by school/work, we can do a fair number of tests well before Shoddy Battle 2 is even released. We should have a discussion of switching over when it does get released, and probably will, but that's months from now.

I think what's more important is that just because the engine that we use to test/collect evidence might be changing doesn't mean the method will change. We should set up guidelines on how we should conduct tests. And more specifically, what we want to test.

And at this early point in the site, I think it's far more important to test out clauses such as Sleep, OHKO, Evasion, etc... rather than Pokemon tier tests.

Enkidu

Apr 29th, 2009, 06:08 PM

Organize the tiers based on pokemon's usefulness/strength, not how often they are used?

OU = First Class
UU = Second Class
NU = Third class
NFE = NFE

Between most of the pokemon sites out on the internet we have all the information to order most of the pokemon ourselves, with maybe 40 - 50 pokemon actually being suspect as to whether they belong in 1st Class or 2nd class.

Obviously I just made up the names on the spot, so they are pretty bad . But I think it explains my point rather well.

Also the current smogon tier list cant...actually...be...used. They only used usage statistics for OU/UU/NU right now and are waiting to see which pokemon are nominated as too powerful or too weak for the current metagame they are in. ( Hence why things like Medicham, Floatzel, Kangaskhan, Jumpluff, Zangoose are all NU even though they work well in OU given some leeway , although are all much better suited to UU . They just aren't used enough.)

Edit* also why test the clauses? I can theorymon a scenario right now. You switch in a swampert > Your opponent switches in a Breloom. Breloom spores either swampert or the switch in, subs up and spores the next switch in, and the next one, and the next one, and the next one.

Or as breloom spores the first one/ the switch in, you use something like sleep talk while it subs up to do some damage...it switches out to an appropriate counter and kills your only way of dealing with it >:| OR you manage to predict around, your a great player! You only take one pokemon to beat it! your opponent switches in another pokemon with spore -_-

Your opponent switches in a Breloom. Breloom spores either the switch in or active pokemon, subs up and spores the next switch in, and the next one, and the next one, and the next one. :/ or if you stay in it leech seeds/seed bombs/focus punchs/ Your entire team to death because not many decent pokemon even have insomnia and most ghost pokemon outside of the Rotom formes and dusknoir can even take a hit.

2nd edit* All in all, I'm not a huge fan of Smogon, but these clauses help ALOT with team building, opening up many strategies that without them wouldn't be possible. Without OHKO you would NEED a pokemon with sturdy. Without Sleep clause you would need a way to beat every common status inducer :/ It would ruin the small bit of variety that Pokemon actually has competitively.

randomspot555

Apr 29th, 2009, 06:26 PM

Organize the tiers based on pokemon's usefulness/strength, not how often they are used?

"Usefulness/strength" gets very close to theory-mon. There SHOULD be a prevention for some Pokemon that, no matter how much they aren't used, shouldn't drop down to UU. That's the entire point of the BL tier, to make sure that those Pokemon (Staraptor, Abomasnow, and like 3 or so others) don't drop to UU.

And on a more nitpicking note, I don't think tiers that aren't based on usage should use names such as "Overused."

Between most of the pokemon sites out on the internet we have all the information to order most of the pokemon ourselves, with maybe 40 - 50 pokemon actually being suspect as to whether they belong in 1st Class or 2nd class.

But here's the thing about Pokemon. In theory, when a new game is released and a battle simulator like Shoddy is updated, ALL the moves and new stuff, they're available right then. But despite no new moves being introduced between the release of D/P and the release of Plat, Pokemon still had new sets being created, raising and lowering in popularity. Aerodactyl couldn't function as a Choice Band user anymore due to Stealth Rock, but it's a great suicide lead, as just one example.

Basically, it's impossible to determine how "useful" a Pokemon can be. If a new set comes up or a tier test is done, it can turn the game around.

Also the current smogon tier list cant...actually...be...used. They only used usage statistics for OU/UU/NU right now and are waiting to see which pokemon are nominated as too powerful or too weak for the current metagame they are in. ( Hence why things like Medicham, Floatzel, Kangaskhan, Jumpluff, Zangoose are all NU even though they work well in OU given some leeway , although are all much better suited to UU . They just aren't used enough.)

Here's where I disagree. Non-OU Pokemon can be viable in OU. But only to a certain extent, when they can perform a unique role. But if an OU Pokemon can perform the same role and better, then there's no reason not to use it.

For example, Blastoise. Blastoise can Rapid Spin, he can RestTalk. That's about it. You COULD have him run a Choice Band set in OU, but many others would perform a Band set better.

Edit* also why test the clauses? I can theorymon a scenario right now. You switch in a swampert > Your opponent switches in a Breloom. Breloom spores either swampert or the switch in, subs up and spores the next switch in, and the next one, and the next one, and the next one.

Or as breloom spores the first one/ the switch in, you use something like sleep talk while it subs up to do some damage...it switches out to an appropriate counter and kills your only way of dealing with it >:|

Your opponent switches in a Breloom. Breloom spores either the switch in or active pokemon, subs up and spores the next switch in, and the next one, and the next one, and the next one. :/ or if you stay in in leech seeds/seed bombs/focus punchs/ Your entire team to death because not many decent pokemon even have insomnia.

To an extent, I see your point. But a repeated focus is that PP wants to gather evidence and do the research ourselves to draw our own conclusions, not rely on others. In my mind, if we can reach a wide consensus on something that's "obvious", we can skip an official test. But we need to set up a method of conducting tests before we should even talk about what to or what not to test.

Destati

Apr 29th, 2009, 06:34 PM

Why do you trust the results of a particular group of people who get their stats from users using a particular program that is not built on reverse engineering? Shoddy is built from experimental results and trial, etc. Meaning incorrect implementations will affect battles to be different than if people were battling using a DS and hence people will adjust their teams to that environment. This may or may not be close to what the rules should be for people not using shoddy.

I do not understand what you mean. The Damage calculations are the same. The IV and EV system is the same. Even Illegal algorithms, such as Bold Zapdoses with perfect IVs are banned. The two environments are identical.

What you can trust is that we will find out all game mechanics for each move and modify shoddy to work as the game does.

Another things that makes a potential difference is that you can make the perfect team on shoddy and many people will battle with those, but those teams may or may not be feasible for people not using shoddy. So why should the stats for people who can make any team they want affect people who are playing with a DS on wi-fi and not using pokesav to make their teams?

So basically you're talking about people with Perfect IV Pokemon against those without. Well, thats why you breed. To get those stats. Every stat besides Speed has random numbers involved in it. A Lucario with 30 sp. atk EVs instead of 31 Sp. atk EVs will still be able to 2HKO a Blissey with Focus Blast (and choice specs).

Also, I'm sure 99% of people on Projectpokemon are using Pokesav Pokemon. Thats this site's greatest appeal.

Also, a post thats edited before anyone else posts doesn't show the EDIT thing under it. Someone changed the **** to dust. You were the first person to post after me when it suddenly changed. The only other possibility is that another mod appeared and changed it right before you posted.

---------- Post added at 06:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ----------

Varna, do you know why Garchomp was banned? One of the reasons was because it overwhelmed the metagame. People had to have a Pokemon soley to counter Garchomp.

Sleep is the exact same thing. So now we all need to carry Lum berries to save ourselves from Breloom? The Metagame would turn into the same thing. And it did. This was in the past during the Emerald generation. Breloom was godly, so Smogon had two options: Ban Breloom or restrict Sleep. They chose to restrict sleep.

And again, this is more than just a Smogon thing. Its in Pokemon Battle Revolution and is even an official tournament rule. Now you're not only debating Smogon, you're debating Nintendo.

Enkidu

Apr 29th, 2009, 06:37 PM

And on a more nitpicking note, I don't think tiers that aren't based on usage should use names such as "Overused."
The OU = First class was a "name change" suggestion as that wouldnt make sense to call it OU if it was based off of Usefulness.

Usefulness also is referring to how well a pokemon accomplishes a specific task/role in comparison to other pokemon.

Basically, it's impossible to determine how "useful" a Pokemon can be. If a new set comes up or a tier test is done, it can turn the game around.
Again I should have made clear how I was using that particular word, I apologize.

Here's where I disagree. Non-OU Pokemon can be viable in OU. But only to a certain extent, when they can perform a unique role. But if an OU Pokemon can perform the same role and better, then there's no reason not to use it.

What...? Thats not what I was even talking about with

Also the current smogon tier list cant...actually...be...used. They only used usage statistics for OU/UU/NU right now and are waiting to see which pokemon are nominated as too powerful or too weak for the current metagame they are in. ( Hence why things like Medicham, Floatzel, Kangaskhan, Jumpluff, Zangoose are all NU even though they work well in OU given some leeway , although are all much better suited to UU . They just aren't used enough.)

The bolded part is mostly what you said. So, what are you referring to?

To an extent, I see your point. But a repeated focus is that PP wants to gather evidence and do the research ourselves to draw our own conclusions, not rely on others. In my mind, if we can reach a wide consensus on something that's "obvious", we can skip an official test. But we need to set up a method of conducting tests before we should even talk about what to or what not to test.

And I didn't say we shouldn't gather our own evidence, but from what you guys are saying it seems more like we should disregard nearly everything that any other community has done and start from the ground up ourselves, when I think one of our greatest advantages is that we have so much to use as a resource in our endeavor.

Greencat

Apr 29th, 2009, 06:42 PM

Also, I'm sure 99% of people on Projectpokemon are using Pokesav Pokemon. Thats this site's greatest appeal.

Don't exaggerated. I'm sure that if you grabbed a 100 Pokemon from the site, only one would be legit. -.- And I didn't know when one word was edited off, it meant almost all of your words were edited and you were stuffed with words you didn't mean to say.[/sarcasm]

Well, you see, when moderators edit my posts they tend to replace a lot of my words with other words.
I EDITED your post! "****" Signifies anger and tensions are already high in here. It wouldn't be as bad if posted elsewhere, but this thread is in a "High Tension" status already.

And what does it matter if it's legit or Illegal? As long as it's Legal than it's almost the same. =|

Enkidu

Apr 29th, 2009, 06:46 PM

Don't exaggerated. I'm sure that if you grabbed a 100 Pokemon from the site, only one would be legit. -.-[/sarcasm]
And what does it matter if it's legit or Illegal? As long as it's Legal than it's almost the same. =|

Wha....t? Wrong thread? Delete someones post??

Greencat

Apr 29th, 2009, 06:50 PM

Oh, I had it open and didn't post for awhile. It was directed at Destati. ;P

Destati

Apr 29th, 2009, 06:52 PM

what did I say? Now I'm lost too.

randomspot555

Apr 29th, 2009, 06:53 PM

The OU = First class was a "name change" suggestion as that wouldnt make sense to call it OU if it was based off of Usefulness.

That was me misreading. My bad.

Usefulness also is referring to how well a pokemon accomplishes a specific task/role in comparison to other pokemon.

But as I've witnessed, these things can change. Suicide leads basically bought Aerodactyl from UU to OU, even though that move set was available at the time of his downfall.

There are a few that can be easily said and that won't change unless drastic measures are taken place. Blissey is the best special wall, bar none. But much else can be in some sort of change. If you look at the Shoddy statistics, you'll see points when suicide leads are popular and when bulky leads are popular. Donphan might be the preferred Rapid Spinner one month and then Claydol is it the next.

I just think it's very hard to assign roles and say how useful a Pokemon is, in the vast majority of cases.

Again I should have made clear how I was using that particular word, I apologize.

The bolded part is mostly what you said. So, what are you referring to?

I just wanted to diffuse the whole "omgzers WEEZING IN UU?" flamefest that'll come up. Not specifically directed to you. But too many conversations, when talking about UU in OU, often turn to "Well this pet favorite of mine can beat OU Pokes down, so why's it UU??".

And I didn't say we shouldn't gather our own evidence, but from what you guys are saying it seems more like we should disregard nearly everything that any other community has done and start from the ground up ourselves, when I think one of our greatest advantages is that we have so much to use as a resource in our endeavor.

To an extent, I agree. There are certainly more important clauses to test than Sleep. But before the massive UU/NU undertaking started at Smogon, there was talk about testing a good chunk of Uber tiered Pokemon in OU. Not because anyone actually thought Mew was viable in OU, but as to have some sort of evidence to back up Mew's uber tiering, rather than "Well, it was uber last gen." Because the 4th gen isn't the 3rd gen. If any site is to make decisions about the 4th gen metagame, it should be using evidence from the 4th gen game, not precedent from previous generations.

For example, here's a post that explains (much better than I can) why OHKO moves should be tested: link (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1724142&postcount=84)

This isn't GSC anymore, where FishTauros would murder entire teams with "252 EVs in every stat". Those of you who argue OHKOs would definitely break the game but who also think Stealth Rock isn't breaking the game are therefore being kind of hypocritical. We don't know anything worthwhile about OHKOs in Platinum until we test them in Platinum.

Replace OHKO with whatever.

Greencat

Apr 29th, 2009, 06:57 PM

@ Destati:

Also, I'm sure 99% of people on Projectpokemon are using Pokesav Pokemon. Thats this site's greatest appeal.

Don't exaggerated. I'm sure that if you grabbed a 100 Pokemon from the site, only one would be legit. -.- And I didn't know when one word was edited off, it meant almost all of your words were edited and you were stuffed with words you didn't mean to say.[/sarcasm]

Well, you see, when moderators edit my posts they tend to replace a lot of my words with other words.
I EDITED your post! "****" Signifies anger and tensions are already high in here. It wouldn't be as bad if posted elsewhere, but this thread is in a "High Tension" status already.

And what does it matter if it's legit or Illegal? As long as it's Legal than it's almost the same. =|

Destati

Apr 29th, 2009, 07:03 PM

randomspot555

Apr 29th, 2009, 07:10 PM

Ok, here's why Mew is uber. Mew has no counter. You never know what move Mew is going to use. Its unpredictable. Its as though you were playing chess with another person, except all their pieces looked the same but behaved differently and all started in different locations. There's a possibility of countering him eventually, but not before they've swept you. If you see a Lucario you know what to expect. Either a special sweeper or a physical sweeper. Any other set is just foolish.

While you're correct in what you post, you also missed the point. Tier and clause decisions should be made with 4th gen testing, not whatever happened in previous generations. Testing an uber, at the very least, gives a community the ability to define WHY it's uber now, rather than just assuming with "Well, it was last time." If the game has changed since OHKO, for example, were tested, then they deserve to be re-tested. Because you can't base a decision for the 4th gen made with 2nd gen evidence. And regardless of how obvious I see Garchomp being where it should be, it should be tested again, because the game has changed. Same will eventually go for Manaphy and Latias.

SCV

Apr 29th, 2009, 10:51 PM

I do not understand what you mean. The Damage calculations are the same. The IV and EV system is the same. Even Illegal algorithms, such as Bold Zapdoses with perfect IVs are banned. The two environments are identical.Those are by far not the only restrictions in the game.

What you can trust is that we will find out all game mechanics for each move and modify shoddy to work as the game does.Who is "we" and how do you plan to do that?

Also, I'm sure 99% of people on Projectpokemon are using Pokesav Pokemon. Thats this site's greatest appeal.Well, Project Pokemon is not about Pokesav, I would appreciate it if you stop thinking that and 99% is wrong. We can definately find 10 people who don't use pokesav for their teams. 1 being me.

[QOUTE]Also, a post thats edited before anyone else posts doesn't show the EDIT thing under it. Someone changed the **** to dust. You were the first person to post after me when it suddenly changed. The only other possibility is that another mod appeared and changed it right before you posted.
[/QUOTE]Yeah, I don't see how that becomes chainging alot of words.

Enkidu

Apr 30th, 2009, 01:56 AM

I don't use Pokesav either ( lack of a flash cart ) .

While you're correct in what you post, you also missed the point. Tier and clause decisions should be made with 4th gen testing, not whatever happened in previous generations. Testing an uber, at the very least, gives a community the ability to define WHY it's uber now, rather than just assuming with "Well, it was last time." If the game has changed since OHKO, for example, were tested, then they deserve to be re-tested. Because you can't base a decision for the 4th gen made with 2nd gen evidence. And regardless of how obvious I see Garchomp being where it should be, it should be tested again, because the game has changed. Same will eventually go for Manaphy and Latias.

I'm sure no one has a problem with this, but as I said before it sounded like me as if everyone wanted to completely disregard the work of other communities and start from scratch when we have so much to work with, re-work and start from scratch that simply pushing everything else aside and "doing our own thing" is not the way to go about it.

Destati

Apr 30th, 2009, 02:45 AM

While you're correct in what you post, you also missed the point. Tier and clause decisions should be made with 4th gen testing, not whatever happened in previous generations. Testing an uber, at the very least, gives a community the ability to define WHY it's uber now, rather than just assuming with "Well, it was last time." If the game has changed since OHKO, for example, were tested, then they deserve to be re-tested. Because you can't base a decision for the 4th gen made with 2nd gen evidence. And regardless of how obvious I see Garchomp being where it should be, it should be tested again, because the game has changed. Same will eventually go for Manaphy and Latias.

Mew HAS been tested for 4th Gen. Its was tested a looong time ago. Its almost been 2 years since Diamond Pearl came out in America, and the added moves in Platinum are hardly going to make a difference. Garchomp doesn't need to be tested again. Its strongest "counters" didn't get any buffs to help counter Garchomp at all. Latias was legalized during Platinum, largely due to its help in balancing the Platinum metagame.

SCV, the second quote was actually one of your quotes. I just accidently forgot to quote it. And I thought you were the one that editted the post, k?

Illithian

Apr 30th, 2009, 03:40 AM

A lot of people seemingly have difficulty understanding the point of the tier system.

The tier system is designed for the metagames. It was designed so certain pokemon could be banned for a metagame. It isn't designed as a guide for which pokemon you should use, its a guide for which pokemon you can't use. Nothing else.

Of course there is some separation based on battle usefulness, but all pokemon have situational usefulness and if you build a team around a pokemon and play it skillfully, it will work fine. The point of the tier system isnt to say that all the pokemon in NU suck, its to say that all the pokemon in Uber are too powerful for the Standard metagame. After all, Entei has a BST of 580 and yet hes in NU.

Oh, and for those of you who care, X-Act has an incredible guide on how to rate a pokemon's base stats. Viewable here (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39556).

While you're correct in what you post, you also missed the point. Tier and clause decisions should be made with 4th gen testing, not whatever happened in previous generations. Testing an uber, at the very least, gives a community the ability to define WHY it's uber now, rather than just assuming with "Well, it was last time." If the game has changed since OHKO, for example, were tested, then they deserve to be re-tested. Because you can't base a decision for the 4th gen made with 2nd gen evidence. And regardless of how obvious I see Garchomp being where it should be, it should be tested again, because the game has changed. Same will eventually go for Manaphy and Latias.

@Randomspot;

Quite literally, all pokemon have been tested and analyzed. DP has been out since 07, theres been time. Hundreds of new analysis' have been written. When theres an issue with a certain pokemon, its brought up on smogon and people will test it. Everything has been tested and retested; its just a matter of where you look.

Varna

Apr 30th, 2009, 03:41 AM

Sleep is the exact same thing. So now we all need to carry Lum berries to save ourselves from Breloom? The Metagame would turn into the same thing. And it did. This was in the past during the Emerald generation. Breloom was godly, so Smogon had two options: Ban Breloom or restrict Sleep. They chose to restrict sleep.

Taunt it, or use the ability Insomnia or Early Bird. Problem solved. It's not half as big of a deal as you're making it out to be. If you get swept, it's because you have terrible foresight in team building, or you simply got paired up with an autoloss. Sucks to be you.

And again, this is more than just a Smogon thing. Its in Pokemon Battle Revolution and is even an official tournament rule. Now you're not only debating Smogon, you're debating Nintendo.

Please point out (http://www.pokemonvgc.com/en/rules/rrg.html) where said sleep clause is for me, will you? Simply because it is an OPTION in Battle Revolution does not instantly make it official.

Illithian

Apr 30th, 2009, 03:51 AM

Taunt it, or use the ability Insomnia or Early Bird. Problem solved. It's not half as big of a deal as you're making it out to be. If you get swept, it's because you have terrible foresight in team building, or you simply got paired up with an autoloss. Sucks to be you.

I Loled for about a minute when I read about reading the ability Insomnia. Yeah, because there are definitely useful pokemon that have that ability. /sarcasm. Well, I suppose Honchkrow does, but that didn't exist last generation.

I don't think its exactly fair to let your team get sleeped by a 100% spore. On the other hand, Breloom only has 70 base speed which is rather mediocre, so it is counterable, on the assumption you can OHKO it? I suppose a Brave Bird might.

In any case, sleep clause is useful to no end. If my entire team is asleep, I would just give in out of boredom; no point waiting.

Please point out (http://www.pokemonvgc.com/en/rules/rrg.html) where said sleep clause is for me, will you? Simply because it is an OPTION in Battle Revolution does not instantly make it official.

It is not official as far as I know. Hmm, maybe I should bring a scarfed Breloom to the Seattle tournament? ;)

Varna

Apr 30th, 2009, 06:36 AM

I Loled for about a minute when I read about reading the ability Insomnia. Yeah, because there are definitely useful pokemon that have that ability. /sarcasm. Well, I suppose Honchkrow does, but that didn't exist last generation.

I don't think its exactly fair to let your team get sleeped by a 100% spore. On the other hand, Breloom only has 70 base speed which is rather mediocre, so it is counterable, on the assumption you can OHKO it? I suppose a Brave Bird might.

In any case, sleep clause is useful to no end. If my entire team is asleep, I would just give in out of boredom; no point waiting.

What exactly is wrong with Hypno, or even Banette? Hell, Banette is a twofold counter there - not effected by Focus Punch AND Spore, and has a good attack stat to boot.

OHKOing it is not the only option, though it's certainly a good one. I already even mentioned Taunt.

If your entire team gets put to sleep, you built a shitty team or you weren't prepared. Simple as that.

randomspot555

Apr 30th, 2009, 08:31 AM

If your entire team gets put to sleep, you built a shitty team or you weren't prepared. Simple as that.

Yeah, you can say that. But do you build your teams so that, just in case Breloom or Scarf Dark Void Smeargle pops up, every Pokemon can stay awake or attack while asleep? Because if you don't, your teams are just as poorly built as anyone else's.

As to other points:

@Randomspot;

Quite literally, all pokemon have been tested and analyzed. DP has been out since 07, theres been time. Hundreds of new analysis' have been written. When theres an issue with a certain pokemon, its brought up on smogon and people will test it. Everything has been tested and retested; its just a matter of where you look.

Mew HAS been tested for 4th Gen. Its was tested a looong time ago. Its almost been 2 years since Diamond Pearl came out in America, and the added moves in Platinum are hardly going to make a difference. Garchomp doesn't need to be tested again. Its strongest "counters" didn't get any buffs to help counter Garchomp at all. Latias was legalized during Platinum, largely due to its help in balancing the Platinum metagame.

SCV, the second quote was actually one of your quotes. I just accidently forgot to quote it. And I thought you were the one that editted the post, k?

As of this Order of Operations (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42182), Mew has not been tested and there are responses throughout the thread talking why to/why not to test Mew. It's safe to say not every Pokemon has been tested. Unless you two can source when/where it was tested and what the vote was.

Destati

Apr 30th, 2009, 04:39 PM

*looks at time posted*

Jun 26th, 2008, 8:59:44 AM

Try this one instead

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50920

Jumpman said this:

And I'm pretty sure the consensus now is that Mew shouldn't be a Suspect

Here are some random quotes regarding Mew

Mew has so many options available and, from my understanding, it's way to difficult to stop it from doing it's thing. It's Gliscor that isn't limited to just attack+speed. Access to Nasty Plot doesn't help its cause either, making it able to sweep on it's own.

I would honestly be more worried about the sweeper sets Mekkah presented a while ago then Mew Baton Passing out. Basically, Mew has recovery, a +2 Attack and SpA move, and can hit with extremely powerful moves on both sides of the spectrum. Taunt is the big one here, and Trick is also huge. So again, last priority (I think you guys already said its off the list though)

+ Allows it to cripple a key counter to a BP chain
+ Cripple walls so it can set up a boost to pass or sweep with
+ Allows use of Choice items to deliver fast statuses with Scarf, and huge hits with Band or Specs
+ Can use all Choice items VERY well
+ Due to unpredictablity, it may be hard to expect a Trick

You're right. They never tested Mew because they don't need to test Mew. This is their suspect list:

Latias without Soul Dew
Latios without Soul Dew
Latias with Soul Dew
Latios with Soul Dew
Evasion Clause
Manaphy
Species Clause
OHKO Clause

They already tested Lati@s without Soul Dew. Latios passed, Latias did not. Obviously that also means Latios WITH Soul Dew will not pass either, so the list looks like this:

Latias with Soul Dew
Evasion Clause
Manaphy
Species Clause
OHKO Clause

I don't see the sense in doing what they're already going to be doing. Also, that order isn't static. It may change later. In fact, I believe they're doing Manaphy right now based on this thread

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53062

---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:30 PM ----------

Also, this link might help too

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51472

randomspot555

Apr 30th, 2009, 05:25 PM

I'm perfectly aware of what's going on, as far as testing, at Smogon. Not only do I keep up with their forums, but Jumpman also posts in the Pokemon thread over at the Something Awful forums.

The point of the post is that two posters made two false claims: That Mew has been tested (it hasn't, and the point was that ubers/clauses/whatever should be tested so the research is reflective of the current metagame, not whatever happened in RBY/GSC/RSE) and that all Pokemon have been tested.

Of course, regardless of the specific example (which I pulled out of my hat, but just so happened to be true), the meaning of the message was the same. The metagame and the rules that regulate it should be based on what's going on now. This is especially true for clauses that haven't been tested for years (OHKO, Evasion), or Pokemon that were just automatically bumped up to tiers (Manaphy, for example, was bumped to Uber without a test after it spent some time in OU).

You have the right to your own opinion. About the need to test pokemon tiers/clauses/etc, for example. You do not have the right to your own facts (they have been tested).

Destati

Apr 30th, 2009, 06:43 PM

So... now what? This thread originally started as a way to show users the standard rules that everyone plays with. Smogon's never going to just be "satisfied" with the metagame. But even with their size they can only do so much at once. They talked about testing multiple things at a time, but its just not possible, even with two seperate ladders. All we can do is wait it out. The remaining things that need to be tested are suspect. That doesn't mean they're going to make them all legal (in terms of OU play) just because there's a shread of doubt in their minds. They were illegal/uber, and they're going to stay in their respective category until they can get to them. However, do not expect much change. The only suspect that might have a compelling arguement is Manaphy, but even thats iffy. Here's what I think:

Latias with Soul Dew - This thing is naturally banned. Latias is most often used as a sweeper rather than a tank, and the sp. atk bonus would just set it over the limit.
Evasion Clause - Never going to happen. Nothing changed in terms of Evasion from RBY to now. The only thing that has changed is the implementation of more perfect accuracy moves, all of which are below 60 power besides Aura Sphere (Only three non-uber Pokemon can learn that and they are all OU)
Manaphy We thought Suicune was monsterous. Tail Glow, Rest, Rain Dance and Surf can be destructive. Grass Knot hits Manaphy for nothing, and with enough evs in sp. def Manaphy can eat t-bolts and rest off the remaining damage with its 100% recovery move with high pp.
Species Clause I think the only reason this Clause exists is because its an official Nintendo Clause. Teams that would violate this clause would not work in the Battle Frontier or Battle Revolution. I see no harm in removing this Clause besides conflicts with official Nintendo things.
OHKO Clause Similar deal with evasion clause. It will essentially turn the game into a luck based coin flip instead of a game using actual strategy. Even Articuno isn't that big of a problem with Mind Reader. Its OHKO in general

Syberia

May 2nd, 2009, 04:20 AM

Removing species clause would be a horrible idea. Battles would basically be decided based on what you brought with you from the beginning, even moreso than they are now. And imagine someone using a SD Lucario and a Specs Lucario on the same team, both named LUCARIO. Even once you did figure out that they had both, you'd still never know which one you were facing (unless they had different amounts of damage and you memorized which was which).

It is already impossible to prepare for every thread in D/P, if you had to start accounting for two or more different variations of the same thread (often, one easily wipes out counters to the other), I have no doubt that pokemon would be even less about skill than it is now, and depend way more on simply who brought the right pokes with them.

Secondly, Smogon does not "get everything right," for the simple reason that most of the decisions they make have no right or wrong answer. The simple fact of how hotly contested the last few suspect tests have been can attest to this. They depend on peoples' subjective feelings about pokemon, and their effects on the metagame based on a subjectively determined set of criteria of what makes an uber (don't get me started on how the criteria favor stall-based pokemon while seeking to exclude offensive ones). It's definitely not hard science, and it shouldn't be. Colin tried to use hard science (statistics) to determine an ubers list on Official Server, and it ended up being drastically different from what the players actually wanted.

Thirdly, Smogon's suspect test process is, quite frankly, a crock of shit. People who play a lot, and win a lot, don't get to vote simply because they may not write as well as others. These people clearly have the requisite metagame experience to make a decision on a suspect, as they played and won enough to meet the voting requirements. I fail to see where writing ability factors into the decision at all. Not to mention, one person (Jumpman) has the sole authority to judge paragraph submissions, and he does so in private, and his decisions are not open to scrutiny by anyone else. When he did disclose his reasons, they included such sentiments as "I don't agree with your reasoning," and "taking into account your posting history on this forum." The first is totally subjective, and the second is quite irrelevant (not to mention a strong personal bias).

A vote should be just that - a vote.

Enkidu

May 2nd, 2009, 05:19 AM

Removing species clause would be a horrible idea. Battles would basically be decided based on what you brought with you from the beginning, even moreso than they are now. And imagine someone using a SD Lucario and a Specs Lucario on the same team, both named LUCARIO. Even once you did figure out that they had both, you'd still never know which one you were facing (unless they had different amounts of damage and you memorized which was which).

It is already impossible to prepare for every thread in D/P, if you had to start accounting for two or more different variations of the same thread (often, one easily wipes out counters to the other), I have no doubt that pokemon would be even less about skill than it is now, and depend way more on simply who brought the right pokes with them.

Secondly, Smogon does not "get everything right," for the simple reason that most of the decisions they make have no right or wrong answer. The simple fact of how heated and close the last few suspect tests have been can attest to this. They depend on peoples' subjective feelings about pokemon, and their effects on the metagame based on a subjectively determined set of criteria of what makes an uber (don't get me started on how the criteria favor stall-based pokemon while seeking to exclude offensive ones). It's definitely not hard science, and it shouldn't be. Colin tried to use hard science (statistics) to determine an ubers list on Official Server, and it ended up being drastically different from what the players actually wanted.

Thirdly, Smogon's suspect test process is, quite frankly, a crock of shit. People who play a lot, and win a lot, don't get to vote simply because they may not write as well as others. These people clearly have the requisite metagame experience to make a decision on a suspect, as they played and won enough to meet the voting requirements. I fail to see where writing ability factors into the decision at all. Not to mention, one person (Jumpman) has the sole authority to judge paragraph submissions, and he does so in private, and his decisions are not open to scrutiny by anyone else. When he did disclose his reasons, they included such sentiments as "I don't agree with your reasoning," and "taking into account your posting history on this forum." The first is totally subjective, and the second is quite irrelevant (not to mention a strong personal bias).

A vote should be just that - a vote.

Yes your right. but as of right now everyone's just saying the same thing over and over again. We're getting no where.

Silent Storm

May 2nd, 2009, 03:43 PM

wraith89

May 2nd, 2009, 03:58 PM

Agreed, after the Latios vote I just gave up on smogon.

Wait I don't get it. Recently I heard Latias w/o Soul Dew is allowed in OU, but what happened with Latios? Is he just too strong for OU without Soul Dew?

Silent Storm

May 2nd, 2009, 04:21 PM

Basically people deemed him too strong for OU, the whole thing imo was ridiculous, I saw arguments like people are building teams poorly because of Latios which help Infernape sweep.

If such a Pokemon was obviously uber then the vote would not have been as close as it is, some players voted simply because they didn't like it while others voted because the specs set, being risky could sweep shitty teams, with the assumption that a Latios player can play perfectly, surfing and Draco Meteoring on the right Pokemon, which wasn't the case when I played on the suspect ladder, then people had the nerve to tell us that we should have played more when:

The suspect ladder was dead

Jumpman was filtering votes based on who he liked or what made sense according to him etc, there was aguy that wrote a brilliant paragraph but got denied on the basis that Jump didn't like him (it was 5KRunner).

I am probably going to far here but the vote just pissed me off, and no I wasn't going to vote on the basis Latios was my favorite dragon, I was going to vote based on the fact that he is not uber if he can't beat whatever shitty team I make considering I am one of the worst battlers around also if he can't grab me any kills (like a good suspect user I used the suspect half way through to give me a good idea on what he is capabale of).

wraith89

May 2nd, 2009, 05:07 PM

Silent Storm

May 2nd, 2009, 05:14 PM

Well I think under the species clause Latios belongs in the OU metagame witout soul dew, unlike her sister, Latios is easier to kill (the trap scizor set kills him in two hits, one if he decided to run) but I don't care either way, Latios and Latias are just dragons that are beaten by common OU threats currently running around.

Latias though is a great offensive Pokemon thanks to her bulk.

randomspot555

May 2nd, 2009, 05:14 PM

So what do you think? Do you think Latios without a Soul Dew belongs in OU like his sister or no? Everytime I see Latias no one uses her for her supportive set but a sweeper like her brother... isn't that like playing with a bad Latios (except for the Sp.Def)?

I'd give Latias a few months for the fresh-car-smell to wear off when it won't be used just because it's new to OU. Then we'll see some more diversity in sets being run.

wraith89

May 2nd, 2009, 05:16 PM

Yeah, I would like consistency. If one stays, the other stays as well... if one goes, the other should go too. I guess the main reason the Lati twins were in uber is because of Soul Dew, but if you take that out, what does that make them? Bulky Gengars with a different typing, I guess :-/

Right now, I believe both should be Ubers until tested otherwise. If they're in OU, I can't wait to see a Dragon Dancing Latios or something (outclassed by Salamence, I know)

Syberia

May 2nd, 2009, 05:18 PM

Latios does not belong in OU. You don't even need to predict, all you need to do is use Specs Draco Meteor. No user of Pursuit can take two in a row, so if they don't bring in their Pursuiter right away (it will die to two consecutive hits if they do this), all you have to do is Draco Meteor once, and then switch to a counter to their obvious Steel-type switch in. If they bring in Scizor/Metagross/Tyranitar on your first DM, they die next turn.

There is no inconsistency. Latios has 40 points more Sp. Atk with the same Timid nature as Latias, as well as the threat of potentially going mixed with DD and Outrage. They are far from being the exact same pokemon.

But my argument against the suspect test process stems from the use of irrelevant criteria (namely, writing ability) to weed out potential voters, and the inherent bias and subjectivity involved in such a process. Not about where certain pokemon should or should not have been placed.

Illithian

May 2nd, 2009, 08:35 PM

But my argument against the suspect test process stems from the use of irrelevant criteria (namely, writing ability) to weed out potential voters, and the inherent bias and subjectivity involved in such a process. Not about where certain pokemon should or should not have been placed.

How is writing ability irrelevant? No one wants a suspect test thats badly written and no one would pay any attention to it anyway.

And either way, you seem to be an excellent writer; if you make a good argument, why don't you bring it up for suspect testing again back on smogon, or write a suspect test here for peer review then submit it to smogon? I personally would love to see a good argument against Latias backed up by data. I would love to peer edit it if you make one.

Enkidu

May 2nd, 2009, 09:16 PM

Well I think under the species clause Latios belongs in the OU metagame without soul dew, unlike her sister, Latios is easier to kill (the trap scizor set kills him in two hits, one if he decided to run) but I don't care either way, Latios and Latias are just dragons that are beaten by common OU threats currently running around.

Latias though is a great offensive Pokemon thanks to her bulk.

Latios was being likened to a more specially oriented Garchomp. Where after a single calm mind its counters were all 2HKO'd at worst. And just like Garchomp's choice band set, with choice specs too many things in the OU tier were easily taken out in one hit after Stealth rock damage.

Yeah, I would like consistency. If one stays, the other stays as well... if one goes, the other should go too. I guess the main reason the Lati twins were in uber is because of Soul Dew, but if you take that out, what does that make them? Bulky Gengars with a different typing, I guess :-/
T
he Lati@s pair has an instant recovery move and twice the bulk of gengar. Their common weakness's make them manageable, but Latios's more offensive oriented stat distribution made him impossible to counter if played right, as he outsped/could live through one attack/ OHKO'd whatever switched in to "counter" him. And I know, I played the suspect ladder. He tore through "standard" teams pretty easily.

Right now, I believe both should be Ubers until tested otherwise. If they're in OU, I can't wait to see a Dragon Dancing Latios or something (outclassed by Salamence, I know)

Thats something that Should be tested, Lack of a SR weakness and access to moves that take out common DD counters might work but I don't want to just theorymon it.

Syberia

May 3rd, 2009, 04:05 AM

How is writing ability irrelevant? No one wants a suspect test thats badly written and no one would pay any attention to it anyway.
I may have been unclear; having to write an essay is irrelevant to the amount of battle experience you have using and playing against the suspect and actually winning, and it's just made worse when it's judged by a single person using an unpublished set of criteria (my Latios vote was based around the offensive and support characteristics, and was rejected for an unknown reason though Legacy Raider's was accepted and used as an example of "what to do right" even though we said basically the same thing) that is not even open to public scrutiny.

I would honestly prefer a straight-up vote of all the participants who met the ranking requirements, perhaps even one where posting arguments and reasoning in the voting topic is expressly forbidden, as not to influence those who have not voted yet. If someone's experienced a pokemon enough to achieve the necessary rating, they are experienced enough to develop a gut feeling about that pokemon - OU or uber. I don't have a problem with them using whatever characteristics they choose to make that decision, even if they cannot elaborately explain them, as long as it's not something utterly ridiculous like 5KRunner's "nintendo doesn't allow Deoxys in its tournaments so I'm voting it uber on that grounds" post.

Honestly, Smogon puts way too much emphasis on logic and consistency to the point of absurdity. Need I remind you, certain members were seriously considering implementing the Pursuit glitch into Shoddy or at the very least banning the move because of the glitch, when all parties involved could clearly see that it would be counterproductive to do so?

Destati

May 4th, 2009, 08:37 PM

The pursuit glitch only exists in Platinum vs Diamond/Pearl fights anyway.

Also, now that I think about it removing species clause is indeed a horrible idea. Most of the time we have one, maybe two counters to a certain Pokemon. Imagine a team with six Zapdoses. My. God. You'll essentially NEED Blissey on every team. Latias would fall to two Zapdoses using HP Ice eventually, but Blissey could keep eating them. Or 6 Choice Band Scizors? Ugh, I don't wanna think about it anymore.

Also, Latias and Latios are two distinct Pokemon. Realistically they're as similar as Ho-oh is with Paras. At the same time, What about UU? Moltres and Articuno are allowed, but their sibling Zapdos isn't.

And yeah, I don't think Smogon's voting criteria is perfect but its better than nothing.

And yeah, Latios is Uber as hell. If a Pokemon can sweep in the Uber metagame just imagine it in OU. Even Garchomp can sweep in Ubers.

Illithian

May 6th, 2009, 03:39 AM

Do Smogon's rules allow BL pokemon to be in the UU metagame? It seems very unclear and a matter of opinion for most people I've asked.

Silent Storm

May 6th, 2009, 03:54 AM

Borderline was created as a ban list for UU Pokemon.

Syberia

May 6th, 2009, 04:01 AM

The pursuit glitch only exists in Platinum vs Diamond/Pearl fights anyway.
It can happen in Platinum vs. Platinum as well. The only requirement is that the Platinum game be the host.

Also, now that I think about it removing species clause is indeed a horrible idea. Most of the time we have one, maybe two counters to a certain Pokemon. Imagine a team with six Zapdoses. My. God. You'll essentially NEED Blissey on every team. Latias would fall to two Zapdoses using HP Ice eventually, but Blissey could keep eating them. Or 6 Choice Band Scizors? Ugh, I don't wanna think about it anymore.
Yeah, pretty much.

Also, Latias and Latios are two distinct Pokemon. Realistically they're as similar as Ho-oh is with Paras. At the same time, What about UU? Moltres and Articuno are allowed, but their sibling Zapdos isn't.
Zapdos is the only one of the three that is not x4 weak to Stealth Rock, that has a lot to do with it. It also has the highest speed of the three.

Destati

May 9th, 2009, 08:14 PM

BL also doesn't exist anymore. The "list" here still contains it, but thats because its just the Smogon list from 2 months ago.

Illithian

May 10th, 2009, 02:57 PM

BL also doesn't exist anymore. The "list" here still contains it, but thats because its just the Smogon list from 2 months ago.

Of course BL exists...

http://www.smogon.com/dp/tiers/bl

As stated by Silent Storm, BL is a banlist for UU, it would take months of suspect testing to even consider removing it and then it would just come back with new move tutors and opportunities to get G/S/C pokemon.

P.S. For those who aren't following suspect testing, Manaphy is on the standard suspect ladder. I'm hoping he gets put into OU, hes a fantastic pokemon but he has enough counters and is quite similar to Jirachi, except Jirachi has incredible typing and great opportunities to use and abuse STAB.

Destati

May 10th, 2009, 08:53 PM

The BL list mentioned is under suspect testing. And there already have been months of suspect testing. There used to be like 40 BL Pokemon.

Manaphy almost wasn't being considered as a suspect. It was obvious to Smogon that it was Uber. They're basically doing the voting just to humor everyone so it can be official.

Jirachi doesn't get Tail Glow and a 95 STAB attack power move with good coverate. Manaphy will dominate in OU if its allowed and Smogon knows that. Protip: If a Pokemon is powerful in Ubers, its going to be even more powerful in OU. Remember when we all thought we'd never see Deoxys-E and Garchomp ever again? They're all over the Uber metagame.

Also, why can't we get a sticky for this? We don't even follow the "forum" rules on Shoddy and it gets a sticky for some random reason.

Varna

May 12th, 2009, 03:27 AM

blah blah blah

Also, why can't we get a sticky for this? We don't even follow the "forum" rules on Shoddy and it gets a sticky for some random reason.

It isn't stickied because this thread provides no information that is either A: relevant, or B: not posted elsewhere. It's a preaching thread for you discussion thread about the different aspects of Smogon's rules.

Destati

May 12th, 2009, 03:53 AM

randomspot555

May 12th, 2009, 08:01 AM

Also, why can't we get a sticky for this? We don't even follow the "forum" rules on Shoddy and it gets a sticky for some random reason.

The forum rules are simply a way to ask for a battle. If you don't know why forum rules get a sticky, then I don't know how much I can help you in understanding it.

It isn't stickied because this thread provides no information that is either A: relevant, or B: not posted elsewhere. It's a preaching thread for you discussion thread about the different aspects of Smogon's rules.

This thread has plenty of relevant information. Regardless of anyone's personal opinion on Smogon and how they utilize clauses and tiers, it's a fact that they are an influence on the competitive battling aspect of the metagame. And since this is the Competitive Battling forum, it's relevant to it, on-topic, and worthy of discussion.

If you don't like the topic, more power to you. Don't post, contribute to the discussion, whatever. But if it's relevant or not isn't up for you to decide.

Varna

May 12th, 2009, 08:06 PM

This thread has plenty of relevant information. Regardless of anyone's personal opinion on Smogon and how they utilize clauses and tiers, it's a fact that they are an influence on the competitive battling aspect of the metagame. And since this is the Competitive Battling forum, it's relevant to it, on-topic, and worthy of discussion.

If you don't like the topic, more power to you. Don't post, contribute to the discussion, whatever. But if it's relevant or not isn't up for you to decide.

The information in this thread is hardly relevant because we have resources posted elsewhere. You are correct, though. It serves as a discussion thread. I never said that it didn't. That doesn't instantly mean it deserves being stickied, however, which was my entire point.

Destati

May 12th, 2009, 10:43 PM

we don't have resources posted anywhere else though. This is it. Greencat's list is his own work.

Varna

May 12th, 2009, 11:31 PM

we don't have resources posted anywhere else though. This is it. Greencat's list is his own work.

Greencat's list is this site's resource. Therefore, we don't need this one. That's why this is a discussion thread and not a sticky.

randomspot555

May 12th, 2009, 11:45 PM

The information in this thread is hardly relevant because we have resources posted elsewhere. You are correct, though. It serves as a discussion thread. I never said that it didn't. That doesn't instantly mean it deserves being stickied, however, which was my entire point.

Regardless of what is and isn't posted, the thread is still relevant to discuss Smogon and all things related to it, because Smogon is relevant to a large part of the competitive game and the rules/tiers of battling that this (sub)forum follows. And even after we establish clauses and tiers from our own testing, Smogon basically making the metagame is going to have an affect on most battlers, even if it's subtle.

As to what is posted, yeah, there's a limited amount of information already posted, but that doesn't invalidate the thread. Common rules of battling is just stating what is and isn't standard and common other clauses, the site follows the same clauses Smogon follows and uses their tiers.*

We do have the Pokemon ranking thread, and while the work on it is great and should encourage others to do similar work, it's the result of a few people rather than a community, and isn't even enforced. There's a Singles Rate thread, but it's not exactly filled to the brim, and the RMT guide has only just been started. We're still a long way to go from making the claim that this place has all the sources it needs.

*Of course, to change this, we need more original content. And I hope to put something together real soon to encourage this. Keep your eye on Competitive Battling for an Announcement (those appear at the very top, above the sticky threads).

To end what seems to be carrying this on: No, this won't be stickied, yes the thread is relevant for many reasons and will remain open for discussion. Everyone can now chill out. It should be obvious to everyone why it won't be stickied, and after the first "No it won't be stickied", the discussion should've stopped.

SCV

May 13th, 2009, 12:51 AM

varna, the Shoddy servers use these rules. In fact, no one uses the other rules. Read the first post. It was never inteded to be a preaching thread. The title was chosen by SCV because for some reason he still disagrees with the Standard Rules and believes that we need to be outcasts and have our own.
Its not about being outcasts. Smogon bases their results based on shoddy battle 1 which is just what its name says, shoddy. Hopefully Shoddy Battle 2 will bring something closer to the game. There are still things they don't know about battle mechanics and they ban moves just because their implementation in shoddy is not right (e.g., Heart Swap on Manaphy during testing). But even then, alot of the information used for making shoddy and its databases are based on observations rather than seeing what the game actually does.

Basically the premise of using Shoddy to set the standard for all battles, I don't agree with.

Rules based on Shoddy Battle data should only apply to shoddy battles and not WiFi battles.

To me holding tournaments using wi-fi and the VS recorder, would seem like a better idea. Shoddy can be good for practice and testing teams.

Destati

May 13th, 2009, 07:46 PM

Varna

May 13th, 2009, 08:02 PM

randomspot555

May 13th, 2009, 08:51 PM

My main "problem" (used with the loosest meaning of the word, due to a lack of a better word for it) with Shoddy is that I don't think enough people recognize that there is a difference between the Wi-Fi environment and a battle simulator.

**Before someone comes in and says "lol Pokesav it", this is based on the assumption that players are using legitimate, in-game methods for obtaining Pokemon***

Legendary usage, especially ones that have (not yet) appeared in subsequent core games, is much lower. Some are restricted by events, either direct distribution or via ticket items. Jirachi doesn't even have an in-game location. Mew is in Emerald, but the item was only released in Japan. Celebi won't have an in-game location until G/S re-makes are out, and hasn't had a 4th gen event yet. Add in that the Johto Beasts in FR/LG were designed to have crap IVs, and there's a reason why these Pokes allowed in standard play on Shoddy, aren't as common in Wi-Fi battles.

Breeding for Hidden Power is a bitch. Getting a good Hidden Power type, then getting it at a decent power (70!), AND getting good IVs and the nature you want, and god forbid if it's on a Pokemon with one useful ability and one useless ability (like Starmie). This also goes back to legendary usage, where Zapdos needs something like HP Ice or HP Grass to round out it's attacks. Maybe the RNG exploit makes this easier, I've yet to read up on it.

I've also read statements from Wi-Fi players on Serebii's and Smogon's forums that Uber battling is pretty rare, and I imagine it's because of how hard to get something viable via soft re-set, since the only Ubers that can currently be bred/hatched are Garchomp and Wobbuffet. Yeah, there are many OU Pokes that are viable in Uber like Scizor and Tyranitar, but it's still a challenge to get a full uber team with great IVs, nature, blah blah blah.

Move tutors and TM availability, or rather the lack of. Did you breed an awesome Blissey in D/P/Plat? Cool! Want Seismic Toss on it? Tough. It's only in Emerald/FR/LG. There's really no reason that, at the very least, all TMs can be purchased between D/P/Plat in an unlimited fashion, or earned in some daily event, or something like that. It's certainly gotten better, but there's still some that aren't very available.

Varna

May 13th, 2009, 08:58 PM

^ That too. All very good points. I myself tend to forget about the differences between the two environments sometimes, but they are there and they're very real.

wraith89

May 13th, 2009, 09:00 PM

Varna

May 13th, 2009, 09:07 PM

That's why Zapdos from Wifi and Shoddy are two different beasts. I remembered there's a glitch regarding the legendary beasts of FR/LG where their IVs are fixed at 0 or something... where did I hear this before?

They're fixed to extremely low values, something like 0~2 I think. If I remember right, the Latis were under the same stipulation.

wraith89

May 13th, 2009, 09:16 PM

That's why... so a tier list based on Shoddy isn't completely correct. I see.

But what about the beasts in Colosseum? Are they affected by the same fixation?

SCV

May 13th, 2009, 09:26 PM

You seriously think that Shoddy is so glitched that nothing it states can be taken as fact. Thats shocking. I have never seen anyone that thinks that way besides you. A new simulator isn't going to revolutionize the tiers. What works on Shoddy works equally as well in real DS Wifi.

Also, Manaphy is banned from OU play anyway. Manaphy is officially an uber.
As randomspot555 put very well, wi-fi and shoddy are very different enviroments. I don't know how much you know about programming or whether you have looked at shoddy's source but looking at it and learning about how it has been created makes me sad. Sure the reason's for doing it the way they did are legitimate. But people taking as fact that rules should be based on shoddy's result is what makes it so bad.

However, for Shoddy Battle 2 Colin is using research from the game for many things where it previously was not used, meaning it will be closer to the real thing as far as battles go. Of course, the environment will still be different for the things already stated.

Also like randomspot555, said, we will be assuming use legit pokemon. The apparent cheat detection that takes place when trying to summit a battle with the VS Recorder seems like it will help sift out cheaters.

The people making shoddy do not have complete knowledge of the battle mechanics so you can't expect them to be the same. If you claim they are and you want to defend their results then you'll have to provide proof that they are the same.

That's why Zapdos from Wifi and Shoddy are two different beasts. I remembered there's a glitch regarding the legendary beasts of FR/LG where their IVs are fixed at 0 or something... where did I hear this before?
There is a glitch in the function that generated the pkm that will go into your party/box from the roamer information. Before its copied, the data is fine, but in the process, the IVs are not copied correctly so you end up being able to get up to 31 in HP and 7 in Atk.

That's why... so a tier list based on Shoddy isn't completely correct. I see.

But what about the beasts in Colosseum? Are they affected by the same fixation?
Well, its correct if its only applied to battles taking place using Shoddy.

For the ones from Colosseum, they don't suffer the same problem.

Illithian

May 14th, 2009, 01:12 AM

Today, Smogon's webzine, The Smog, has had its first release.

"The Smog is a bi-monthly web magazine produced by some of the top writers, artists, and Pokemon experts in the Smogon community." (Chaos)

I read through the entire thing, as I'm sure many people have. I thought it was an interesting read. Some of the more interesting articles, in my opinion, were:

OU Metagame Lead Analysis (http://www.smogon.com/smog/ou_metagame_analysis)
New Faces of UU (http://www.smogon.com/smog/new_faces_of_uu)
Inverse Metagames (http://www.smogon.com/smog/inverse_metagames)

The first and third are quite lengthy, but they are both extremely interesting reads. The OU Lead analysis was extremely interesting and I reccomend all players read it, as it is a collection of information on leads that should have been compiled long before.

The New Faces of UU is an excellent read that has some explanation of the aftermath of the BL and UU merge. I think it also has some good explanations as to why it was a balencing act.

Finally, the Inverse Metagames was the longest and possibly the most interesting of the three; it explores how one metagame affects the others. It was quite interesting, kudos to Seven Deadly Sins (http://www.smogon.com/forums/member.php?u=20997) for writing it.

A side note, kudos to Syberia for the RNG abuse testing. I would never have the patience to do that.

Discuss your favorite articles in The Smog and your thoughts on them.

Enkidu

May 14th, 2009, 09:58 AM

I enjoyed reading the Inverse Metagame article. It felt like Smogons official statement regarding what exactly their tier system was based on. It also gave some insight as to WHY so many pokemon fall short of being classified as "OU" as oppose to just stating criteria for OU and UU.

People just don't seem to get what the tier system or competitive battling is about yet though, so hopefully "The smog" helps bring out a more easily understandable definition of competitive battling while adressing the " why isnt X OU!, I can sweep/wall teams with x if I use it properly" Kind of mentality that many people suffer.

Aqueel

May 14th, 2009, 10:42 AM

I just read the Lead Analysis, and it has proven useful. Well-written and interesting.

Pondering about a Mamoswine as a lead now...

Ah, the luring article was good for new players such as me.

Syberia

May 15th, 2009, 02:49 PM

A side note, kudos to Syberia for the RNG abuse testing. I would never have the patience to do that.

Discuss your favorite articles in The Smog and your thoughts on them.
Thank mingot. He did most of it, I just used his research to get what I wanted.

EDIT: I'd just like to say that Smogon's suspect test process is officially complete bull. The criteria to get voting rights for stage 3 are not even being revealed, yet they expect people to be able to qualify for them? I honestly don't believe the results of their testing should count for anything anymore, since they obviously aren't taken from an objectively representative sample.

mewmart

May 22nd, 2009, 12:20 AM

Destati, I want to ask you. Why are you on this site if you support Smogon so much? *Just asking*
Second of all, how battles are done depends on the two (or four) people battling; Unless you just want EVERYONE SINGLE PERSON in this forum (or any other forum), to follow the same specific rules.

I completely agree with SCV. In my point of view, Project Pokemon is just trying to do their own thing, their own way. Is it so wrong to do things a bit differently? The owners of Project Pokemon can do whatever they want, seeing as they, basically, own this site.

I wouldn't say that Destati is supporting Smogon to the extent of defecting over to them. I personally would think it'll be appropriate to give Smogon the credit for researching in such depth into competitive Pokemon battling, and acknowledge their expertise and therefore give them due recognition for their efforts.

Shogun

Jun 2nd, 2009, 12:10 AM

Nice job gathering informnation.
Howeve, becasuse this forum is different than Smogon, would it not be a good idea to make our own tier?

randomspot555

Jun 2nd, 2009, 12:15 AM

Nice job gathering informnation.
Howeve, becasuse this forum is different than Smogon, would it not be a good idea to make our own tier?

While we technically do have a tier list, no one uses it and it's really the thoughts of just a few people rather than though any real method of testing.

But before any talks of PP developing it's own metagame, a clear plan needs to be developed, a method of testing that we can follow.

But that's really a discussion for another thread.

Illithian

Jun 2nd, 2009, 01:49 AM

I don't think differing from Smogon's tier list and standard rules is a good idea at all. Although their suspect process is complete crap at this point, they have done extensive research that a forum the size of ours couldn't do; we don't have the dedicated researchers that Smogon has to seriously test pokemon to the point of developing our own tier list.

And if we did, whats the point? Just to say that we're different? Why change what works?

Varna

Jun 2nd, 2009, 02:30 AM

And if we did, whats the point? Just to say that we're different? Why change what works?

Well, for one, "what works" is an arguable point. Secondly, for plenty of reasons, not the least of which is to become a better community as a whole.

Illithian

Jun 2nd, 2009, 03:10 AM

Well, for one, "what works" is an arguable point. Secondly, for plenty of reasons, not the least of which is to become a better community as a whole.

I think you need to elaborate a little more.

I have yet to find a single aspect of smogon's tiers and clauses that is nonfunctional or obviously unfair. Yes, there are some people who obviously haven't had their entire team spored by a Breloom and still argue sleep clause, but they aren't going to win and Sleep Clause will always remain standard.

And I don't see how spending time testing for our own tiers just so we can have one or two differences from smogon's tiers helps us become a better community as a whole aside from bragging rights saying we're different. Which is rather useless imho.

randomspot555

Jun 2nd, 2009, 12:19 PM

I think you need to elaborate a little more.

I'm not speaking for Varna, but simply because Smogon's set of rules and how they design Pokemon sets are based on using a battle simulator. Rules such as Sleep/evasion/ohko/species won't necessarily need to be re-done. Pretty much every battle forum out there uses those as a basis, and for good reason. But how useful a Pokemon is on Wi-Fi can be drastically different than how useful it is on Shoddy, and thus the tier lists may actually greatly differ.

Think about it: If you caught a Zapdos with a sucky Hidden Power, how useful do you think it actually is? Hidden Power Grass or Ice is recommended on every set on Smogon (and only in the first two sets is it a second or third option; every other set has it either has the first option of a slot or the only). The same can pretty much be said for any Pokemon who has a special attacking set but with a limited special attack movepool. Heatran, Vaporeon, and others usually rely on HP to round out their coverage.

Varna

Jun 2nd, 2009, 07:19 PM

^ That. Shoddy is a poor excuse for the actual game (they don't even have all the hold items programmed in, haha).

I don't personally see the need for a lot of the clauses, though. I think that they should, at the very least, be tested.

SilentFox

Jun 14th, 2009, 05:02 PM

Smogon is:
Trying to create order and predictability in a game that had the intention of being 100% customizable and unpredictable (in terms of added probabilities in addition to the normal user-controlled aspects).
The only thing that makes me sicker than Standard Rules is Standard Movesets/EVs

Preach, I personally like to customize my movesets. I dont need no elitest group tell me what I need to do. I do what im want to as long as it's ok

Illithian

Jun 14th, 2009, 05:50 PM

I'm not speaking for Varna, but simply because Smogon's set of rules and how they design Pokemon sets are based on using a battle simulator. Rules such as Sleep/evasion/ohko/species won't necessarily need to be re-done. Pretty much every battle forum out there uses those as a basis, and for good reason. But how useful a Pokemon is on Wi-Fi can be drastically different than how useful it is on Shoddy, and thus the tier lists may actually greatly differ.

Think about it: If you caught a Zapdos with a sucky Hidden Power, how useful do you think it actually is? Hidden Power Grass or Ice is recommended on every set on Smogon (and only in the first two sets is it a second or third option; every other set has it either has the first option of a slot or the only). The same can pretty much be said for any Pokemon who has a special attacking set but with a limited special attack movepool. Heatran, Vaporeon, and others usually rely on HP to round out their coverage.

Might be just me and my insanity, but I reset in front of Zapdos more then 30 times to get HP Grass.

And I think this entire discussion is extremely hypocritical. For many of the wifi players on this forum (NOT all), they simply use Pokesav to create/edit whatever pokemon in however way they want, which I simply fail to see how thats very different from Shoddy. I rarely play on Wifi, simply because I'm too lazy in general to actually get my DS out and play on it. I do play on PBR, although basically every battle I'm in is full of hacked Ubers.

And which hold items does Shoddy not have programmed in? Potions? Revives? Yeah, because that makes a ton of difference in a battle simulator designed to allow people to test their teams before they spend a month resetting/breeding for them ingame.

randomspot555

Jun 14th, 2009, 07:46 PM

Preach, I personally like to customize my movesets. I dont need no elitest group tell me what I need to do. I do what im want to as long as it's ok

I don't think anyone is elitist. They simply have an easier way of obtaining these movesets due to most users of Smogon (probably even most competitive battlers in general; i know a good few who don't even own D/P/Plat) use Shoddy.

Might be just me and my insanity, but I reset in front of Zapdos more then 30 times to get HP Grass.

Sure, but you got very lucky. I know someone who spent something like 2 weeks to get a competitively viable Regice or something like that. If that Zapdos also had a good nature ANd IVs, I'd consider you very lucky.

And I think this entire discussion is extremely hypocritical. For many of the wifi players on this forum (NOT all), they simply use Pokesav to create/edit whatever pokemon in however way they want, which I simply fail to see how thats very different from Shoddy.

I understand this point and it's been said before, but Pokesav's existance doesn't negate the good chunk of people who either don't hack their carts or don't have access to an AR or flashcart. And if "just pokesav it" is bought up, then it just seems like one step away fro allowing illegal Pokes too, which Pokesav allows you to create.

I hate using that slippery slope argument and kinda feel dirty for typing it, but I think it still makes a good point. In a legit Wi-Fi environment (and I know more than a few people here who play 100% legit on their carts, or have 1 cart reserved for hacking and another one clean, etc...), there are differences between Wi-Fi and Shoddy. How much those effect the overall environment can be debated,but they are there nonetheless.

I think a core aspect of a competitively viable battling community that battles via Wi-Fi is people who understand the game mechanics not just of battle strategy itself, but also the mechanics that allow you to actually get these Pokemon.

That isn't to say people who battle Shoddy don't use Wi-Fi or don't understand the game mechanics. I know Jumpman has said he's the exact opposite of you (rarely does Shoddy, does Wi-Fi). A simple glance at the Articles section shows several that are written to help do stuff in-game. But that doesn't neglect that Shoddy and Wi-Fi are different environments.

I do play on PBR, although basically every battle I'm in is full of hacked Ubers.

Random PBR battles are...well, random. And while the traffic might be slower, try getting on when Japan is awake. I've had slightly better luck finding interesting opponents doing so (meaning midnight-3am). But be prepared to wait 15 minutes or more before finding one.

And which hold items does Shoddy not have programmed in? Potions? Revives? Yeah, because that makes a ton of difference in a battle simulator designed to allow people to test their teams before they spend a month resetting/breeding for them ingame.

I have no idea...wasn't part of my post. I know they leave out some moves or items, but a simulator really doesn't need Tackle and Revives in it.

Ok, so someone explain this to me. Right now, numerous Pokemon are being tested and/or re-tested. So all that testing is on a Testing Ladder. But over in the standard ladder, Pokemon like Garchomp and Shaymin-S are still banned, right?

Varna

Jun 14th, 2009, 08:01 PM

And which hold items does Shoddy not have programmed in? Potions? Revives? Yeah, because that makes a ton of difference in a battle simulator designed to allow people to test their teams before they spend a month resetting/breeding for them ingame.

Power Herb and some of the berries are ones I've personally noticed missing, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were more. Also, there should be at least one "junk" item programmed in for situations like Trick.

Illithian

Jun 14th, 2009, 08:25 PM

Ok, so someone explain this to me. Right now, numerous Pokemon are being tested and/or re-tested. So all that testing is on a Testing Ladder. But over in the standard ladder, Pokemon like Garchomp and Shaymin-S are still banned, right?

The part about missing items was in reply to Varna, just fyi.

Anyway, the pokemon under Suspect testing are only usable on the Suspect ladder; the Standard metagame still uses the published OU list until a Suspect vote is finished.

Also, quite honestly (I shouldn't be saying this), I think a great amount of the argument against Smogon's tiers are based directly towards specific pokemon. I have seen a ridiculous amount of Scizor hate, and people complaining that hes way too overused and hes broken, but hes not broken and the point of Standard is to be overused. Hence OU. And thats just one example.

If we do indeed try to make our own tiers, I can't think of anything that we'd change! Maybe we would find some NU pokemon that deserve to be UU. Or maybe we would scrap Smogon's new useless Limbo ladder. But either way, I don't think we'd do anything particularly influential to the Standard metagame.

Syberia

Jun 23rd, 2009, 03:40 AM

Usage does not equal power. Scizor is used a lot because it fills the role of revenge killer/dragon resist better than just about anything else, but it's far from broken. Hell, it even has a few 100% paper counters, which is better than we can say for the likes of Gengar or Lucario, and even they do not deserve to be uber.

As I just pointed out in another post, the main place we can differ from Smogon, for the better at least as I see it, is in regards to the UU/OU split. Under Smogon's system, usage determines everything, and pokemon such as Yanmega seem destined to constantly walk the line between UU and OU, being moved up and down repeatedly as new usage statistics come out. Surely it's not only myself who sees this whole process as just a bit ridiculous.

There's no reason pokemon like Yanmega can't simply stay in the UU tier regardless of fluctuations in usage from one month to the next. Usage is a good enough proxy for power that we can use it as a starting point, and by that I mean that pokemon that get low enough in usage should be tested in the UU tier. If they're not broken, that's where they stay, regardless of whether or not they rise back up to the 49th or 50th spot in OU during any given month. By using this process, we'll end up with a larger, more stable, and hopefully more balanced lower tier than Smogon could ever come up with. IMO, tiering based on power and performance, especially since I have just outlined a feasible way to go about doing it, is a much better alternative than simply falling back on the old rhetoric that "usage = power." As I've pointed out above, anyone that's ever used Scizor knows that it's simply not true.

Before anyone tries to argue the trivial point that it's called overused and underused, I know that. Since I'm obviously saying that there's a better way to go about doing this than simply counting up usage, I'm not opposed to changing the names of the tiers if it comes to that.

In regards to the whole Wi-Fi vs. Shoddy argument, I treat them as the same metagame. I prefer Wi-Fi, but my preference has nothing to do with legitimacy. I prefer it simply because the interface is much better, the mechanics are guaranteed to be 100% correct (except I wish they'd fix that unfortunate Pursuit/weather glitch), and it's much easier in general to tell what's going on. I battle with hacks if I need to, I'm sure I play against just as many, and in the end as long as everyone's moves and stats are legal, it's still pokemon.