Standard Rules (as of April 15 from Smogon.com)+General Smogon discussion

[Varna]

You seriously think that Shoddy is so glitched that nothing it states can be taken as fact. Thats shocking. I have never seen anyone that thinks that way besides you. A new simulator isn't going to revolutionize the tiers. What works on Shoddy works equally as well in real DS Wifi.

Also, Manaphy is banned from OU play anyway. Manaphy is officially an uber.

Actually, the majority of people I've talked to think the same way. Shoddy is a nice distraction, but there are a lot of problems with it (as well as missing content) that make it far from an acceptable substitute to the actual game. It might be true that a new version of the simulator won't change much, but there is no denying that it will have an impact.

[randomspot555]

My main "problem" (used with the loosest meaning of the word, due to a lack of a better word for it) with Shoddy is that I don't think enough people recognize that there is a difference between the Wi-Fi environment and a battle simulator.

**Before someone comes in and says "lol Pokesav it", this is based on the assumption that players are using legitimate, in-game methods for obtaining Pokemon***

• Legendary usage, especially ones that have (not yet) appeared in subsequent core games, is much lower. Some are restricted by events, either direct distribution or via ticket items. Jirachi doesn't even have an in-game location. Mew is in Emerald, but the item was only released in Japan. Celebi won't have an in-game location until G/S re-makes are out, and hasn't had a 4th gen event yet. Add in that the Johto Beasts in FR/LG were designed to have crap IVs, and there's a reason why these Pokes allowed in standard play on Shoddy, aren't as common in Wi-Fi battles.
  
• Breeding for Hidden Power is a bitch. Getting a good Hidden Power type, then getting it at a decent power (70!), AND getting good IVs and the nature you want, and god forbid if it's on a Pokemon with one useful ability and one useless ability (like Starmie). This also goes back to legendary usage, where Zapdos needs something like HP Ice or HP Grass to round out it's attacks. Maybe the RNG exploit makes this easier, I've yet to read up on it.
  
• I've also read statements from Wi-Fi players on Serebii's and Smogon's forums that Uber battling is pretty rare, and I imagine it's because of how hard to get something viable via soft re-set, since the only Ubers that can currently be bred/hatched are Garchomp and Wobbuffet. Yeah, there are many OU Pokes that are viable in Uber like Scizor and Tyranitar, but it's still a challenge to get a full uber team with great IVs, nature, blah blah blah.
  
• Move tutors and TM availability, or rather the lack of. Did you breed an awesome Blissey in D/P/Plat? Cool! Want Seismic Toss on it? Tough. It's only in Emerald/FR/LG. There's really no reason that, at the very least, all TMs can be purchased between D/P/Plat in an unlimited fashion, or earned in some daily event, or something like that. It's certainly gotten better, but there's still some that aren't very available.
  

[Varna]

^ That too. All very good points. I myself tend to forget about the differences between the two environments sometimes, but they are there and they're very real.

[wraith89]

That's why Zapdos from Wifi and Shoddy are two different beasts. I remembered there's a glitch regarding the legendary beasts of FR/LG where their IVs are fixed at 0 or something... where did I hear this before?

[Varna]

That's why Zapdos from Wifi and Shoddy are two different beasts. I remembered there's a glitch regarding the legendary beasts of FR/LG where their IVs are fixed at 0 or something... where did I hear this before?

They're fixed to extremely low values, something like 0~2 I think. If I remember right, the Latis were under the same stipulation.

[wraith89]

That's why... so a tier list based on Shoddy isn't completely correct. I see.

But what about the beasts in Colosseum? Are they affected by the same fixation?

[SCV]

You seriously think that Shoddy is so glitched that nothing it states can be taken as fact. Thats shocking. I have never seen anyone that thinks that way besides you. A new simulator isn't going to revolutionize the tiers. What works on Shoddy works equally as well in real DS Wifi.

Also, Manaphy is banned from OU play anyway. Manaphy is officially an uber.

As randomspot555 put very well, wi-fi and shoddy are very different enviroments. I don't know how much you know about programming or whether you have looked at shoddy's source but looking at it and learning about how it has been created makes me sad. Sure the reason's for doing it the way they did are legitimate. But people taking as fact that rules should be based on shoddy's result is what makes it so bad.

However, for Shoddy Battle 2 Colin is using research from the game for many things where it previously was not used, meaning it will be closer to the real thing as far as battles go. Of course, the environment will still be different for the things already stated.

Also like randomspot555, said, we will be assuming use legit pokemon. The apparent cheat detection that takes place when trying to summit a battle with the VS Recorder seems like it will help sift out cheaters.

The people making shoddy do not have complete knowledge of the battle mechanics so you can't expect them to be the same. If you claim they are and you want to defend their results then you'll have to provide proof that they are the same.

That's why Zapdos from Wifi and Shoddy are two different beasts. I remembered there's a glitch regarding the legendary beasts of FR/LG where their IVs are fixed at 0 or something... where did I hear this before?

There is a glitch in the function that generated the pkm that will go into your party/box from the roamer information. Before its copied, the data is fine, but in the process, the IVs are not copied correctly so you end up being able to get up to 31 in HP and 7 in Atk.

That's why... so a tier list based on Shoddy isn't completely correct. I see.

But what about the beasts in Colosseum? Are they affected by the same fixation?

Well, its correct if its only applied to battles taking place using Shoddy.

For the ones from Colosseum, they don't suffer the same problem.

Edited May 14, 2009 by SCV

[Illithian]

Today, Smogon's webzine, The Smog, has had its first release.

"The Smog is a bi-monthly web magazine produced by some of the top writers, artists, and Pokemon experts in the Smogon community." (Chaos)

I read through the entire thing, as I'm sure many people have. I thought it was an interesting read. Some of the more interesting articles, in my opinion, were:

OU Metagame Lead Analysis

New Faces of UU

Inverse Metagames

The first and third are quite lengthy, but they are both extremely interesting reads. The OU Lead analysis was extremely interesting and I reccomend all players read it, as it is a collection of information on leads that should have been compiled long before.

The New Faces of UU is an excellent read that has some explanation of the aftermath of the BL and UU merge. I think it also has some good explanations as to why it was a balencing act.

Finally, the Inverse Metagames was the longest and possibly the most interesting of the three; it explores how one metagame affects the others. It was quite interesting, kudos to Seven Deadly Sins for writing it.

A side note, kudos to Syberia for the RNG abuse testing. I would never have the patience to do that.

Discuss your favorite articles in The Smog and your thoughts on them.

[Enkidu]

I enjoyed reading the Inverse Metagame article. It felt like Smogons official statement regarding what exactly their tier system was based on. It also gave some insight as to WHY so many pokemon fall short of being classified as "OU" as oppose to just stating criteria for OU and UU.

People just don't seem to get what the tier system or competitive battling is about yet though, so hopefully "The smog" helps bring out a more easily understandable definition of competitive battling while adressing the " why isnt X OU!, I can sweep/wall teams with x if I use it properly" Kind of mentality that many people suffer.

[Aqueel]

I just read the Lead Analysis, and it has proven useful. Well-written and interesting.

Pondering about a Mamoswine as a lead now...

Ah, the luring article was good for new players such as me.

[Syberia]

A side note, kudos to Syberia for the RNG abuse testing. I would never have the patience to do that.

Discuss your favorite articles in The Smog and your thoughts on them.

Thank mingot. He did most of it, I just used his research to get what I wanted.

EDIT: I'd just like to say that Smogon's suspect test process is officially complete bull. The criteria to get voting rights for stage 3 are not even being revealed, yet they expect people to be able to qualify for them? I honestly don't believe the results of their testing should count for anything anymore, since they obviously aren't taken from an objectively representative sample.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Syberia

[mewmart]

Destati, I want to ask you. Why are you on this site if you support Smogon so much? *Just asking*

Second of all, how battles are done depends on the two (or four) people battling; Unless you just want EVERYONE SINGLE PERSON in this forum (or any other forum), to follow the same specific rules.

I completely agree with SCV. In my point of view, Project Pokemon is just trying to do their own thing, their own way. Is it so wrong to do things a bit differently? The owners of Project Pokemon can do whatever they want, seeing as they, basically, own this site.

I wouldn't say that Destati is supporting Smogon to the extent of defecting over to them. I personally would think it'll be appropriate to give Smogon the credit for researching in such depth into competitive Pokemon battling, and acknowledge their expertise and therefore give them due recognition for their efforts.

[Shogun]

Nice job gathering informnation.

Howeve, becasuse this forum is different than Smogon, would it not be a good idea to make our own tier?

[randomspot555]

Nice job gathering informnation.

Howeve, becasuse this forum is different than Smogon, would it not be a good idea to make our own tier?

While we technically do have a tier list, no one uses it and it's really the thoughts of just a few people rather than though any real method of testing.

But before any talks of PP developing it's own metagame, a clear plan needs to be developed, a method of testing that we can follow.

But that's really a discussion for another thread.

[Illithian]

I don't think differing from Smogon's tier list and standard rules is a good idea at all. Although their suspect process is complete crap at this point, they have done extensive research that a forum the size of ours couldn't do; we don't have the dedicated researchers that Smogon has to seriously test pokemon to the point of developing our own tier list.

And if we did, whats the point? Just to say that we're different? Why change what works?

[Varna]

And if we did, whats the point? Just to say that we're different? Why change what works?

Well, for one, "what works" is an arguable point. Secondly, for plenty of reasons, not the least of which is to become a better community as a whole.

[Illithian]

Well, for one, "what works" is an arguable point. Secondly, for plenty of reasons, not the least of which is to become a better community as a whole.

I think you need to elaborate a little more.

I have yet to find a single aspect of smogon's tiers and clauses that is nonfunctional or obviously unfair. Yes, there are some people who obviously haven't had their entire team spored by a Breloom and still argue sleep clause, but they aren't going to win and Sleep Clause will always remain standard.

And I don't see how spending time testing for our own tiers just so we can have one or two differences from smogon's tiers helps us become a better community as a whole aside from bragging rights saying we're different. Which is rather useless imho.

[randomspot555]

I think you need to elaborate a little more.

I'm not speaking for Varna, but simply because Smogon's set of rules and how they design Pokemon sets are based on using a battle simulator. Rules such as Sleep/evasion/ohko/species won't necessarily need to be re-done. Pretty much every battle forum out there uses those as a basis, and for good reason. But how useful a Pokemon is on Wi-Fi can be drastically different than how useful it is on Shoddy, and thus the tier lists may actually greatly differ.

Think about it: If you caught a Zapdos with a sucky Hidden Power, how useful do you think it actually is? Hidden Power Grass or Ice is recommended on every set on Smogon (and only in the first two sets is it a second or third option; every other set has it either has the first option of a slot or the only). The same can pretty much be said for any Pokemon who has a special attacking set but with a limited special attack movepool. Heatran, Vaporeon, and others usually rely on HP to round out their coverage.

[Varna]

^ That. Shoddy is a poor excuse for the actual game (they don't even have all the hold items programmed in, haha).

I don't personally see the need for a lot of the clauses, though. I think that they should, at the very least, be tested.

Edited June 3, 2009 by randomspot555
Removed flame bait material/vast assumptions

[SilentFox]

Smogon is:

Trying to create order and predictability in a game that had the intention of being 100% customizable and unpredictable (in terms of added probabilities in addition to the normal user-controlled aspects).

The only thing that makes me sicker than Standard Rules is Standard Movesets/EVs

Preach, I personally like to customize my movesets. I dont need no elitest group tell me what I need to do. I do what im want to as long as it's ok

[Illithian]

I'm not speaking for Varna, but simply because Smogon's set of rules and how they design Pokemon sets are based on using a battle simulator. Rules such as Sleep/evasion/ohko/species won't necessarily need to be re-done. Pretty much every battle forum out there uses those as a basis, and for good reason. But how useful a Pokemon is on Wi-Fi can be drastically different than how useful it is on Shoddy, and thus the tier lists may actually greatly differ.

Think about it: If you caught a Zapdos with a sucky Hidden Power, how useful do you think it actually is? Hidden Power Grass or Ice is recommended on every set on Smogon (and only in the first two sets is it a second or third option; every other set has it either has the first option of a slot or the only). The same can pretty much be said for any Pokemon who has a special attacking set but with a limited special attack movepool. Heatran, Vaporeon, and others usually rely on HP to round out their coverage.

Might be just me and my insanity, but I reset in front of Zapdos more then 30 times to get HP Grass.

And I think this entire discussion is extremely hypocritical. For many of the wifi players on this forum (NOT all), they simply use Pokesav to create/edit whatever pokemon in however way they want, which I simply fail to see how thats very different from Shoddy. I rarely play on Wifi, simply because I'm too lazy in general to actually get my DS out and play on it. I do play on PBR, although basically every battle I'm in is full of hacked Ubers.

And which hold items does Shoddy not have programmed in? Potions? Revives? Yeah, because that makes a ton of difference in a battle simulator designed to allow people to test their teams before they spend a month resetting/breeding for them ingame.

[randomspot555]

Preach, I personally like to customize my movesets. I dont need no elitest group tell me what I need to do. I do what im want to as long as it's ok

I don't think anyone is elitist. They simply have an easier way of obtaining these movesets due to most users of Smogon (probably even most competitive battlers in general; i know a good few who don't even own D/P/Plat) use Shoddy.

Might be just me and my insanity, but I reset in front of Zapdos more then 30 times to get HP Grass.

Sure, but you got very lucky. I know someone who spent something like 2 weeks to get a competitively viable Regice or something like that. If that Zapdos also had a good nature ANd IVs, I'd consider you very lucky.

And I think this entire discussion is extremely hypocritical. For many of the wifi players on this forum (NOT all), they simply use Pokesav to create/edit whatever pokemon in however way they want, which I simply fail to see how thats very different from Shoddy.

I understand this point and it's been said before, but Pokesav's existance doesn't negate the good chunk of people who either don't hack their carts or don't have access to an AR or flashcart. And if "just pokesav it" is bought up, then it just seems like one step away fro allowing illegal Pokes too, which Pokesav allows you to create.

I hate using that slippery slope argument and kinda feel dirty for typing it, but I think it still makes a good point. In a legit Wi-Fi environment (and I know more than a few people here who play 100% legit on their carts, or have 1 cart reserved for hacking and another one clean, etc...), there are differences between Wi-Fi and Shoddy. How much those effect the overall environment can be debated,but they are there nonetheless.

I think a core aspect of a competitively viable battling community that battles via Wi-Fi is people who understand the game mechanics not just of battle strategy itself, but also the mechanics that allow you to actually get these Pokemon.

That isn't to say people who battle Shoddy don't use Wi-Fi or don't understand the game mechanics. I know Jumpman has said he's the exact opposite of you (rarely does Shoddy, does Wi-Fi). A simple glance at the Articles section shows several that are written to help do stuff in-game. But that doesn't neglect that Shoddy and Wi-Fi are different environments.

I do play on PBR, although basically every battle I'm in is full of hacked Ubers.

Random PBR battles are...well, random. And while the traffic might be slower, try getting on when Japan is awake. I've had slightly better luck finding interesting opponents doing so (meaning midnight-3am). But be prepared to wait 15 minutes or more before finding one.

And which hold items does Shoddy not have programmed in? Potions? Revives? Yeah, because that makes a ton of difference in a battle simulator designed to allow people to test their teams before they spend a month resetting/breeding for them ingame.

I have no idea...wasn't part of my post. I know they leave out some moves or items, but a simulator really doesn't need Tackle and Revives in it.

Ok, so someone explain this to me. Right now, numerous Pokemon are being tested and/or re-tested. So all that testing is on a Testing Ladder. But over in the standard ladder, Pokemon like Garchomp and Shaymin-S are still banned, right?

[Varna]

And which hold items does Shoddy not have programmed in? Potions? Revives? Yeah, because that makes a ton of difference in a battle simulator designed to allow people to test their teams before they spend a month resetting/breeding for them ingame.

Power Herb and some of the berries are ones I've personally noticed missing, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were more. Also, there should be at least one "junk" item programmed in for situations like Trick.

[Illithian]

Ok, so someone explain this to me. Right now, numerous Pokemon are being tested and/or re-tested. So all that testing is on a Testing Ladder. But over in the standard ladder, Pokemon like Garchomp and Shaymin-S are still banned, right?

The part about missing items was in reply to Varna, just fyi.

Anyway, the pokemon under Suspect testing are only usable on the Suspect ladder; the Standard metagame still uses the published OU list until a Suspect vote is finished.

Also, quite honestly (I shouldn't be saying this), I think a great amount of the argument against Smogon's tiers are based directly towards specific pokemon. I have seen a ridiculous amount of Scizor hate, and people complaining that hes way too overused and hes broken, but hes not broken and the point of Standard is to be overused. Hence OU. And thats just one example.

If we do indeed try to make our own tiers, I can't think of anything that we'd change! Maybe we would find some NU pokemon that deserve to be UU. Or maybe we would scrap Smogon's new useless Limbo ladder. But either way, I don't think we'd do anything particularly influential to the Standard metagame.

[Syberia]

Usage does not equal power. Scizor is used a lot because it fills the role of revenge killer/dragon resist better than just about anything else, but it's far from broken. Hell, it even has a few 100% paper counters, which is better than we can say for the likes of Gengar or Lucario, and even they do not deserve to be uber.

As I just pointed out in another post, the main place we can differ from Smogon, for the better at least as I see it, is in regards to the UU/OU split. Under Smogon's system, usage determines everything, and pokemon such as Yanmega seem destined to constantly walk the line between UU and OU, being moved up and down repeatedly as new usage statistics come out. Surely it's not only myself who sees this whole process as just a bit ridiculous.

There's no reason pokemon like Yanmega can't simply stay in the UU tier regardless of fluctuations in usage from one month to the next. Usage is a good enough proxy for power that we can use it as a starting point, and by that I mean that pokemon that get low enough in usage should be tested in the UU tier. If they're not broken, that's where they stay, regardless of whether or not they rise back up to the 49th or 50th spot in OU during any given month. By using this process, we'll end up with a larger, more stable, and hopefully more balanced lower tier than Smogon could ever come up with. IMO, tiering based on power and performance, especially since I have just outlined a feasible way to go about doing it, is a much better alternative than simply falling back on the old rhetoric that "usage = power." As I've pointed out above, anyone that's ever used Scizor knows that it's simply not true.

Before anyone tries to argue the trivial point that it's called overused and underused, I know that. Since I'm obviously saying that there's a better way to go about doing this than simply counting up usage, I'm not opposed to changing the names of the tiers if it comes to that.

In regards to the whole Wi-Fi vs. Shoddy argument, I treat them as the same metagame. I prefer Wi-Fi, but my preference has nothing to do with legitimacy. I prefer it simply because the interface is much better, the mechanics are guaranteed to be 100% correct (except I wish they'd fix that unfortunate Pursuit/weather glitch), and it's much easier in general to tell what's going on. I battle with hacks if I need to, I'm sure I play against just as many, and in the end as long as everyone's moves and stats are legal, it's still pokemon.