Standard Rules (as of April 15 from Smogon.com)+General Smogon discussion

[Silent Storm]

Basically people deemed him too strong for OU, the whole thing imo was ridiculous, I saw arguments like people are building teams poorly because of Latios which help Infernape sweep.

If such a Pokemon was obviously uber then the vote would not have been as close as it is, some players voted simply because they didn't like it while others voted because the specs set, being risky could sweep shitty teams, with the assumption that a Latios player can play perfectly, surfing and Draco Meteoring on the right Pokemon, which wasn't the case when I played on the suspect ladder, then people had the nerve to tell us that we should have played more when:

• The suspect ladder was dead
  

• Jumpman was filtering votes based on who he liked or what made sense according to him etc, there was aguy that wrote a brilliant paragraph but got denied on the basis that Jump didn't like him (it was 5KRunner).
  

I am probably going to far here but the vote just pissed me off, and no I wasn't going to vote on the basis Latios was my favorite dragon, I was going to vote based on the fact that he is not uber if he can't beat whatever shitty team I make considering I am one of the worst battlers around also if he can't grab me any kills (like a good suspect user I used the suspect half way through to give me a good idea on what he is capabale of).

[wraith89]

So what do you think? Do you think Latios without a Soul Dew belongs in OU like his sister or no? Everytime I see Latias no one uses her for her supportive set but a sweeper like her brother... isn't that like playing with a bad Latios (except for the Sp.Def)?

[Silent Storm]

Well I think under the species clause Latios belongs in the OU metagame witout soul dew, unlike her sister, Latios is easier to kill (the trap scizor set kills him in two hits, one if he decided to run) but I don't care either way, Latios and Latias are just dragons that are beaten by common OU threats currently running around.

Latias though is a great offensive Pokemon thanks to her bulk.

[randomspot555]

So what do you think? Do you think Latios without a Soul Dew belongs in OU like his sister or no? Everytime I see Latias no one uses her for her supportive set but a sweeper like her brother... isn't that like playing with a bad Latios (except for the Sp.Def)?

I'd give Latias a few months for the fresh-car-smell to wear off when it won't be used just because it's new to OU. Then we'll see some more diversity in sets being run.

[wraith89]

Yeah, I would like consistency. If one stays, the other stays as well... if one goes, the other should go too. I guess the main reason the Lati twins were in uber is because of Soul Dew, but if you take that out, what does that make them? Bulky Gengars with a different typing, I guess :-/

Right now, I believe both should be Ubers until tested otherwise. If they're in OU, I can't wait to see a Dragon Dancing Latios or something (outclassed by Salamence, I know)

[Syberia]

Latios does not belong in OU. You don't even need to predict, all you need to do is use Specs Draco Meteor. No user of Pursuit can take two in a row, so if they don't bring in their Pursuiter right away (it will die to two consecutive hits if they do this), all you have to do is Draco Meteor once, and then switch to a counter to their obvious Steel-type switch in. If they bring in Scizor/Metagross/Tyranitar on your first DM, they die next turn.

There is no inconsistency. Latios has 40 points more Sp. Atk with the same Timid nature as Latias, as well as the threat of potentially going mixed with DD and Outrage. They are far from being the exact same pokemon.

But my argument against the suspect test process stems from the use of irrelevant criteria (namely, writing ability) to weed out potential voters, and the inherent bias and subjectivity involved in such a process. Not about where certain pokemon should or should not have been placed.

[Illithian]

But my argument against the suspect test process stems from the use of irrelevant criteria (namely, writing ability) to weed out potential voters, and the inherent bias and subjectivity involved in such a process. Not about where certain pokemon should or should not have been placed.

How is writing ability irrelevant? No one wants a suspect test thats badly written and no one would pay any attention to it anyway.

And either way, you seem to be an excellent writer; if you make a good argument, why don't you bring it up for suspect testing again back on smogon, or write a suspect test here for peer review then submit it to smogon? I personally would love to see a good argument against Latias backed up by data. I would love to peer edit it if you make one.

[Enkidu]

Well I think under the species clause Latios belongs in the OU metagame without soul dew, unlike her sister, Latios is easier to kill (the trap scizor set kills him in two hits, one if he decided to run) but I don't care either way, Latios and Latias are just dragons that are beaten by common OU threats currently running around.

Latias though is a great offensive Pokemon thanks to her bulk.

Latios was being likened to a more specially oriented Garchomp. Where after a single calm mind its counters were all 2HKO'd at worst. And just like Garchomp's choice band set, with choice specs too many things in the OU tier were easily taken out in one hit after Stealth rock damage.

Yeah, I would like consistency. If one stays, the other stays as well... if one goes, the other should go too. I guess the main reason the Lati twins were in uber is because of Soul Dew, but if you take that out, what does that make them? Bulky Gengars with a different typing, I guess :-/

T

he Lati@s pair has an instant recovery move and twice the bulk of gengar. Their common weakness's make them manageable, but Latios's more offensive oriented stat distribution made him impossible to counter if played right, as he outsped/could live through one attack/ OHKO'd whatever switched in to "counter" him. And I know, I played the suspect ladder. He tore through "standard" teams pretty easily.

Right now, I believe both should be Ubers until tested otherwise. If they're in OU, I can't wait to see a Dragon Dancing Latios or something (outclassed by Salamence, I know)

Thats something that Should be tested, Lack of a SR weakness and access to moves that take out common DD counters might work but I don't want to just theorymon it.

[Syberia]

How is writing ability irrelevant? No one wants a suspect test thats badly written and no one would pay any attention to it anyway.

I may have been unclear; having to write an essay is irrelevant to the amount of battle experience you have using and playing against the suspect and actually winning, and it's just made worse when it's judged by a single person using an unpublished set of criteria (my Latios vote was based around the offensive and support characteristics, and was rejected for an unknown reason though Legacy Raider's was accepted and used as an example of "what to do right" even though we said basically the same thing) that is not even open to public scrutiny.

I would honestly prefer a straight-up vote of all the participants who met the ranking requirements, perhaps even one where posting arguments and reasoning in the voting topic is expressly forbidden, as not to influence those who have not voted yet. If someone's experienced a pokemon enough to achieve the necessary rating, they are experienced enough to develop a gut feeling about that pokemon - OU or uber. I don't have a problem with them using whatever characteristics they choose to make that decision, even if they cannot elaborately explain them, as long as it's not something utterly ridiculous like 5KRunner's "nintendo doesn't allow Deoxys in its tournaments so I'm voting it uber on that grounds" post.

Honestly, Smogon puts way too much emphasis on logic and consistency to the point of absurdity. Need I remind you, certain members were seriously considering implementing the Pursuit glitch into Shoddy or at the very least banning the move because of the glitch, when all parties involved could clearly see that it would be counterproductive to do so?

[Destati]

The pursuit glitch only exists in Platinum vs Diamond/Pearl fights anyway.

Also, now that I think about it removing species clause is indeed a horrible idea. Most of the time we have one, maybe two counters to a certain Pokemon. Imagine a team with six Zapdoses. My. God. You'll essentially NEED Blissey on every team. Latias would fall to two Zapdoses using HP Ice eventually, but Blissey could keep eating them. Or 6 Choice Band Scizors? Ugh, I don't wanna think about it anymore.

Also, Latias and Latios are two distinct Pokemon. Realistically they're as similar as Ho-oh is with Paras. At the same time, What about UU? Moltres and Articuno are allowed, but their sibling Zapdos isn't.

And yeah, I don't think Smogon's voting criteria is perfect but its better than nothing.

And yeah, Latios is Uber as hell. If a Pokemon can sweep in the Uber metagame just imagine it in OU. Even Garchomp can sweep in Ubers.

[Illithian]

Do Smogon's rules allow BL pokemon to be in the UU metagame? It seems very unclear and a matter of opinion for most people I've asked.

[Silent Storm]

Borderline was created as a ban list for UU Pokemon.

[Syberia]

The pursuit glitch only exists in Platinum vs Diamond/Pearl fights anyway.

It can happen in Platinum vs. Platinum as well. The only requirement is that the Platinum game be the host.

Also, now that I think about it removing species clause is indeed a horrible idea. Most of the time we have one, maybe two counters to a certain Pokemon. Imagine a team with six Zapdoses. My. God. You'll essentially NEED Blissey on every team. Latias would fall to two Zapdoses using HP Ice eventually, but Blissey could keep eating them. Or 6 Choice Band Scizors? Ugh, I don't wanna think about it anymore.

Yeah, pretty much.

Also, Latias and Latios are two distinct Pokemon. Realistically they're as similar as Ho-oh is with Paras. At the same time, What about UU? Moltres and Articuno are allowed, but their sibling Zapdos isn't.

Zapdos is the only one of the three that is not x4 weak to Stealth Rock, that has a lot to do with it. It also has the highest speed of the three.

[Destati]

BL also doesn't exist anymore. The "list" here still contains it, but thats because its just the Smogon list from 2 months ago.

[Illithian]

BL also doesn't exist anymore. The "list" here still contains it, but thats because its just the Smogon list from 2 months ago.

Of course BL exists...

http://www.smogon.com/dp/tiers/bl

As stated by Silent Storm, BL is a banlist for UU, it would take months of suspect testing to even consider removing it and then it would just come back with new move tutors and opportunities to get G/S/C pokemon.

P.S. For those who aren't following suspect testing, Manaphy is on the standard suspect ladder. I'm hoping he gets put into OU, hes a fantastic pokemon but he has enough counters and is quite similar to Jirachi, except Jirachi has incredible typing and great opportunities to use and abuse STAB.

[Destati]

The BL list mentioned is under suspect testing. And there already have been months of suspect testing. There used to be like 40 BL Pokemon.

Manaphy almost wasn't being considered as a suspect. It was obvious to Smogon that it was Uber. They're basically doing the voting just to humor everyone so it can be official.

Jirachi doesn't get Tail Glow and a 95 STAB attack power move with good coverate. Manaphy will dominate in OU if its allowed and Smogon knows that. Protip: If a Pokemon is powerful in Ubers, its going to be even more powerful in OU. Remember when we all thought we'd never see Deoxys-E and Garchomp ever again? They're all over the Uber metagame.

Also, why can't we get a sticky for this? We don't even follow the "forum" rules on Shoddy and it gets a sticky for some random reason.

Edited May 11, 2009 by Destati

[Varna]

blah blah blah

Also, why can't we get a sticky for this? We don't even follow the "forum" rules on Shoddy and it gets a sticky for some random reason.

It isn't stickied because this thread provides no information that is either A: relevant, or B: not posted elsewhere. It's a preaching thread for you discussion thread about the different aspects of Smogon's rules.

[Destati]

varna, the Shoddy servers use these rules. In fact, no one uses the other rules. Read the first post. It was never inteded to be a preaching thread. The title was chosen by SCV because for some reason he still disagrees with the Standard Rules and believes that we need to be outcasts and have our own.

Is it relevant? Highly. Go to the RMT board to see.

Not posted elsewhere? This is where it belongs.

-------------

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54812

23 voters, 12 to win. So far 8 have voted for Uber and 4 have voted for OU.

Again, these are people who have used Manaphy in the suspect ladder and have the credibility to claim whether or not they believe Manaphy is too strong for OU play.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Destati
just reformated it a little better due to Randomspot's merge

[randomspot555]

Also, why can't we get a sticky for this? We don't even follow the "forum" rules on Shoddy and it gets a sticky for some random reason.

The forum rules are simply a way to ask for a battle. If you don't know why forum rules get a sticky, then I don't know how much I can help you in understanding it.

It isn't stickied because this thread provides no information that is either A: relevant, or B: not posted elsewhere. It's a preaching thread for you discussion thread about the different aspects of Smogon's rules.

This thread has plenty of relevant information. Regardless of anyone's personal opinion on Smogon and how they utilize clauses and tiers, it's a fact that they are an influence on the competitive battling aspect of the metagame. And since this is the Competitive Battling forum, it's relevant to it, on-topic, and worthy of discussion.

If you don't like the topic, more power to you. Don't post, contribute to the discussion, whatever. But if it's relevant or not isn't up for you to decide.

Edited May 12, 2009 by randomspot555

[Varna]

This thread has plenty of relevant information. Regardless of anyone's personal opinion on Smogon and how they utilize clauses and tiers, it's a fact that they are an influence on the competitive battling aspect of the metagame. And since this is the Competitive Battling forum, it's relevant to it, on-topic, and worthy of discussion.

If you don't like the topic, more power to you. Don't post, contribute to the discussion, whatever. But if it's relevant or not isn't up for you to decide.

The information in this thread is hardly relevant because we have resources posted elsewhere. You are correct, though. It serves as a discussion thread. I never said that it didn't. That doesn't instantly mean it deserves being stickied, however, which was my entire point.

Edited May 13, 2009 by coolbho3000
Undeleted and provocative comments removed.

[Destati]

we don't have resources posted anywhere else though. This is it. Greencat's list is his own work.

[Varna]

we don't have resources posted anywhere else though. This is it. Greencat's list is his own work.

Greencat's list is this site's resource. Therefore, we don't need this one. That's why this is a discussion thread and not a sticky.

[randomspot555]

The information in this thread is hardly relevant because we have resources posted elsewhere. You are correct, though. It serves as a discussion thread. I never said that it didn't. That doesn't instantly mean it deserves being stickied, however, which was my entire point.

Regardless of what is and isn't posted, the thread is still relevant to discuss Smogon and all things related to it, because Smogon is relevant to a large part of the competitive game and the rules/tiers of battling that this (sub)forum follows. And even after we establish clauses and tiers from our own testing, Smogon basically making the metagame is going to have an affect on most battlers, even if it's subtle.

As to what is posted, yeah, there's a limited amount of information already posted, but that doesn't invalidate the thread. Common rules of battling is just stating what is and isn't standard and common other clauses, the site follows the same clauses Smogon follows and uses their tiers.*

We do have the Pokemon ranking thread, and while the work on it is great and should encourage others to do similar work, it's the result of a few people rather than a community, and isn't even enforced. There's a Singles Rate thread, but it's not exactly filled to the brim, and the RMT guide has only just been started. We're still a long way to go from making the claim that this place has all the sources it needs.

*Of course, to change this, we need more original content. And I hope to put something together real soon to encourage this. Keep your eye on Competitive Battling for an Announcement (those appear at the very top, above the sticky threads).

To end what seems to be carrying this on: No, this won't be stickied, yes the thread is relevant for many reasons and will remain open for discussion. Everyone can now chill out. It should be obvious to everyone why it won't be stickied, and after the first "No it won't be stickied", the discussion should've stopped.

[SCV]

varna, the Shoddy servers use these rules. In fact, no one uses the other rules. Read the first post. It was never inteded to be a preaching thread. The title was chosen by SCV because for some reason he still disagrees with the Standard Rules and believes that we need to be outcasts and have our own.

Its not about being outcasts. Smogon bases their results based on shoddy battle 1 which is just what its name says, shoddy. Hopefully Shoddy Battle 2 will bring something closer to the game. There are still things they don't know about battle mechanics and they ban moves just because their implementation in shoddy is not right (e.g., Heart Swap on Manaphy during testing). But even then, alot of the information used for making shoddy and its databases are based on observations rather than seeing what the game actually does.

Basically the premise of using Shoddy to set the standard for all battles, I don't agree with.

Rules based on Shoddy Battle data should only apply to shoddy battles and not WiFi battles.

To me holding tournaments using wi-fi and the VS recorder, would seem like a better idea. Shoddy can be good for practice and testing teams.

[Destati]

You seriously think that Shoddy is so glitched that nothing it states can be taken as fact. Thats shocking. I have never seen anyone that thinks that way besides you. A new simulator isn't going to revolutionize the tiers. What works on Shoddy works equally as well in real DS Wifi.

Also, Manaphy is banned from OU play anyway. Manaphy is officially an uber.