Standard Rules (as of April 15 from Smogon.com)+General Smogon discussion

[Enkidu]

Thats basically what chinese rules are, except they use Base stats to determine that.

Whats more important though is how can we contest rules just because we think they are wrong, without any evidence to back up our claims? I'm not saying " WE MUST USE SMOGONS LIST" But saying its absolute twash because YOU don't agree with it without any proof is ridiculous. I never said we HAVE to use it, but throwing it away without any better reason than " I THINK X" is no way to go about it.

[SCV]

Thats basically what chinese rules are, except they use Base stats to determine that.

Whats more important though is how can we contest rules just because we think they are wrong, without any evidence to back up our claims? I'm not saying " WE MUST USE SMOGONS LIST" But saying its absolute twash because YOU don't agree with it without any proof is ridiculous. I never said we HAVE to use it, but throwing it away without any better reason than " I THINK X" is no way to go about it.

The point was not that we think they are wrong. Its that we are not under any obligation to follow anyone else's rules. We still aren't, and once we start collecting our own data we will be updating the tier lists, etc based on that and not on smogon's results.

[ZMaster]

Just because this site strives to make it's own doesn't mean what other sites have done should be dismissed. A good idea is a good idea, regardless of where it came from.

You completely agreed to what Destati is trying to say. To tell you the truth, I've never heard of Smogon until recently, where Destati kept talking about it in this forum. I don't hate Smogon, or anything they do; I just hate how people keep trying to influence Smogon everywhere.

*I've realized that in every forum, there is always 1, 2 or 3 (usually no higher) who always try to introduce another forum's rules etc into another*

[wraith89]

You completely agreed to what Destati is trying to say. To tell you the truth, I've never heard of Smogon until recently, where Destati kept talking about it in this forum. I don't hate Smogon, or anything they do; I just hate how people keep trying to influence Smogon everywhere.

*I've realized that in every forum, there is always 1, 2 or 3 (usually no higher) who always try to introduce another forum's rules etc into another*

Are there really those types of people? Frankly, I think Smogon is very smart and does know a lot about competitive battling and gives very good movesets and EV spreads for every usable Pokemon (they even have a novelty page for Kakuna in D/P, check it out, I LOL'd) and made some good clauses to prevent things like Spore to be spammed everywhere, but I don't agree that every community should just conform to what they do. Smogon isn't wrong (although I will disagree with some of their tiering placements), but other than that... pushing Smogon in somewhat limits our thinking, don't you think? Like let's look at Victreebel's page. They don't mention a Swords Dance moveset... which could easily be done now with Swords Dance, Sucker Punch, Return/Body Slam (the latter traded from FR/LG) and Leaf Blade. You can devise your own movesets and play creatively too... but no need to push Smogon's rules everywhere.

[Okami]

SCV= Several Complex Variables. Its my research area in Math. You might see SCVgeo floating around hat means SCV was taken. geo is for my focus within SCV being geometry.

Wow, I'm impressed, SCV. I'm not a math person by any means, as it's been my worst subject for as long as I can remember. I ended up with a C in the semester that I took of Geometry...which I then switched for Psychology. I'm much more of a human-interests person

That's so cool, though. I've always wanted to understand math like that, but it just has never clicked, as much as I've wanted it to.

Sorry to deter from the conversation. Please, by all means, continue. :]

[Poryhack]

I've been lurking here but haven't replied yet because I feel a bit underqualified.

I'd just like to make sure the point was made: We will start with Smogon's rules, if there is a significant movement to change a part of them it will be changed. Not having any experience with this, I don't know what to expect as far as that happening or not.

I've seen a few people encouraging far less rules, and despite my inexperience I can see that that is not the way to go. A no-rules free for all might be fun every now and then, but building an entire forum off it sounds like a bad idea.

[wraith89]

I've been lurking here but haven't replied yet because I feel a bit underqualified.

I'd just like to make sure the point was made: We will start with Smogon's rules, if there is a significant movement to change a part of them it will be changed. Not having any experience with this, I don't know what to expect as far as that happening or not.

I've seen a few people encouraging far less rules, and despite my inexperience I can see that that is not the way to go. A no-rules free for all might be fun every now and then, but building an entire forum off it sounds like a bad idea.

I don't know if anyone has been advocating 'no rules' mode... but rules are certainly necessary.

[randomspot555]

You completely agreed to what Destati is trying to say.

Except I didn't. TLDR version is I'm saying don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

What I have adovcated for is that we have soem actual method of justifying what clauses we set and where we place tiers, because up until now it was largely just theory-mon, which has been the downfall of many original tier lists. But it looks like we'll be testing on Shoddy, which will give us meaningful statistics to base everything off of. Problem solved.

(Also, it'll finally give me a reason to download and learn Shoddy).

I just hate how people keep trying to influence Smogon everywhere.

There's really not much to "influence." For better or for worse, Smogon is the only fan site out there that's focused on competitive aspect of Pokemon. Sure, there's some random forums that deviate either a bit or drastically from what standards Smogon has set, but they are largely because of theory-mon rather than any actual evidence that it should be different.

*I've realized that in every forum, there is always 1, 2 or 3 (usually no higher) who always try to introduce another forum's rules etc into another*

Please don't put words in my mouth, because I've never done anything like that.

and gives very good movesets and EV spreads for every usable Pokemon

Frankly, many of their spreads need at least a bit of modifications. Some are just completely awful. When I first started playing competitively, I'd just use whatever was on the first for any Pokemon's page. But then I started modifying some EVs, using other moves, or using slightly gimmicky sets, and I learned a lot more about building a team rather than using the "Best" set for each individual Pokemon.

A no-rules free for all might be fun every now and then, but building an entire forum off it sounds like a bad idea.

I actually started out playing without any clauses besides "No legends" (what an idiot I was).

If I lose a match because I wasn't prepared for a threat (Sub-seed, Focus Punch, Spore Breloom has destroyed TWO of my teams recently. Worse off, it was from the same opponent), that's fine, I can live with that. It's a learning experience. But if I lose a match because Sing hits two Pokemon that want to sleep until next week and a OHKO move takes out a wall that I made to take a lot of hits, I just end up angry.

It's like the difference between a challenging video game and a frustrating video game. A challenging video game will motivate me to finish it and complete it, no matter how hard it may get. A frustrating video game, like say Maximum Carnage will just make me want to destroy my SNES because you can play perfectly and still get destroyed.

[wraith89]

Frankly, many of their spreads need at least a bit of modifications. Some are just completely awful. When I first started playing competitively, I'd just use whatever was on the first for any Pokemon's page. But then I started modifying some EVs, using other moves, or using slightly gimmicky sets, and I learned a lot more about building a team rather than using the "Best" set for each individual Pokemon.

Yeah, I realize. Not everything is perfected... and frankly, those 252/252/6 EV spreads are quite boring. I actually did take out three Pokemon with gimmicky sets... only because they were least expecting it.

[Varna]

If I lose a match because I wasn't prepared for a threat (Sub-seed, Focus Punch, Spore Breloom has destroyed TWO of my teams recently. Worse off, it was from the same opponent), that's fine, I can live with that. It's a learning experience. But if I lose a match because Sing hits two Pokemon that want to sleep until next week and a OHKO move takes out a wall that I made to take a lot of hits, I just end up angry.

Use Lum Berrys. Or Pokémon with abilities that counteract those moves. I've never seen the excuse "well it's cheap!!!11" to be anything more than garbage when the game clearly gives you options against those strategies. They really don't need to be banned simply based on emotion. Ship up or ship out, I always say.

[randomspot555]

Use Lum Berrys. Or Pokémon with abilities that counteract those moves. I've never seen the excuse "well it's cheap!!!11" to be anything more than garbage when the game clearly gives you options against those strategies. They really don't need to be banned simply based on emotion. Ship up or ship out, I always say.

Please don't straw man my posts. If you want to actually respond, do so. But don't turn them into some Internet slang sound bite and put words into my mouth.

[Varna]

Please don't straw man my posts. If you want to actually respond, do so. But don't turn them into some Internet slang sound bite and put words into my mouth.

It wasn't my intention to put words in your mouth. I was just giving the general example of the common mindset for clauses like those.

[KazoWAR]

Smogon was good back in the day, but it just seems like their tiers just get more F'd up every day. A good example is the NU tier, tons and tons of the so called NU pokemon are viable in the UU. The only reason they are there is because ever since they got rid of the BL tier, everyone started UU battleing using all the Over Powered BL pokemon in UU.

[wraith89]

Smogon was good back in the day, but it just seems like their tiers just get more F'd up every day. A good example is the NU tier, tons and tons of the so called NU pokemon are viable in the UU. The only reason they are there is because ever since they got rid of the BL tier, everyone started UU battleing using all the Over Powered BL pokemon in UU.

Quoted for truth... I guess. I question their placement of Tauros, Marowak, Articuno... and some others. But give them time... I'm sure they'll sort things out. I don't know why they were campaigning so much to get rid of the BL tier though... sure, it's "useless" by competitive means, but still... it made more sense to me than an NU tier dominated by those giants.

One of their biggest mistakes back then was sending Aerodactyl to UU.

[randomspot555]

It wasn't my intention to put words in your mouth.

Then you could've done so without quoting me.

I was just giving the general example of the common mindset for clauses like those.

There's a difference between countering a strategy used on a team, and building a team just to counter one centralizing strategy. With Sleep clause off, it limits the type of Pokemon that can be used. And then if you have to build a huge chunk of a team just to counter all the Spore and Hypnosis and Choice Scarf Dark Void Smeargles (if in Doubles) users, then you only have 2 or 3 Pokemon to counter everything else.

There's nothing inherently wrong with any strategy. Even OHKO (which is something I hope we can test soon). But when a strategy ends up centralizing team building, it then creates a stale competitive field, like when Garchomp was still in OU. If people won't make modifications to their team just because they need to make sure to be able to counter everything, then we're going to end up with a handful of Pokemon running rampant and the other 470 being left at the side.

[Varna]

If people won't make modifications to their team just because they need to make sure to be able to counter everything, then we're going to end up with a handful of Pokemon running rampant and the other 470 being left at the side.

Perhaps, but I'd argue that's a problem with the users and not the game. =p

[Destati]

I leave for like two days and this thread turns into ****.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Destati

[SCV]

I leave for like two days and this thread turns into dust.

Please explain? How did it turn to dust?

[Destati]

Well, you see, when moderators edit my posts they tend to replace a lot of my words with other words.

Mostly it feels like people are just arguing rather than asking questions. Smogon exists for a REASON. They're correct and people like me are here to help explain why they're correct.

[SCV]

Well, you see, when moderators edit my posts they tend to replace a lot of my words with other words.

Mostly it feels like people are just arguing rather than asking questions. Smogon exists for a REASON. They're correct and people like me are here to help explain why they're correct.

I see exactly 1 post edited and that is the first post which I edited to change the title. I don't see where a lot of your words got replaced.

Also I would like a response to: http://projectpokemon.org/forums/showpost.php?p=10198&postcount=35

Now, answer me this:

Why do you trust the results of a particular group of people who get their stats from users using a particular program that is not built on reverse engineering? Shoddy is built from experimental results and trial, etc. Meaning incorrect implementations will affect battles to be different than if people were battling using a DS and hence people will adjust their teams to that environment. This may or may not be close to what the rules should be for people not using shoddy.

What you can trust is that we will find out all game mechanics for each move and modify shoddy to work as the game does.

Another things that makes a potential difference is that you can make the perfect team on shoddy and many people will battle with those, but those teams may or may not be feasible for people not using shoddy. So why should the stats for people who can make any team they want affect people who are playing with a DS on wi-fi and not using pokesav to make their teams?

[randomspot555]

Before I post, Destati, the only edit to any of your posts (on this page) I see is from yourself.

Why do you trust the results of a particular group of people who get their stats from users using a particular program that is not built on reverse engineering? Shoddy is built from experimental results and trial, etc. Meaning incorrect implementations will affect battles to be different than if people were battling using a DS and hence people will adjust their teams to that environment. This may or may not be close to what the rules should be for people not using shoddy.

This is certainly true, to an extent. Any Pokemon who relies on Hidden Power too heavily won't be nearly as effective in the Wi-Fi environment, since breeding for/soft re-setting for one that is a good type, high powered, AND with a good nature is a pain. With Wi-Fi battlers who breed like myself, a decent Hidden Power is more like a bonus than a necessity. It's really only useful for those with x4 weaknesses. Otherwise, a good powered STAB hitting for neutral damage comes pretty close to HP whatever hitting for x2.

This also goes, to a more limited extent, on how effective legendary Pokemon are, especially those in the uber environment. Even moreso for event exclusive or near-exclusive Pokemon. I don't remember the last time I saw a Celebi or Jirachi on a Wi-Fi battle.

I'll leave this thread open for a bit longer. But Smogon doesn't have too many big tests going on right now, if any.

And hopefully our own testing will begin soon, and that'll be a great topic of conversation.

[SCV]

And hopefully our own testing will begin soon, and that'll be a great topic of conversation.

Well, now, I am not too sure about that: in between when I posted this: http://projectpokemon.org/forums/showpost.php?p=10292&postcount=47

and now, Colin posted this: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54147

Any opinions on how we should proceed?

[randomspot555]

Well, now, I am not too sure about that: in between when I posted this: http://projectpokemon.org/forums/showpost.php?p=10292&postcount=47

and now, Colin posted this: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54147

Any opinions on how we should proceed?

That's an interesting post.

(keep in mind, to all that might be reading, I've never played on Shoddy)

Honestly, when summer hits and people aren't presumably taken up so much by school/work, we can do a fair number of tests well before Shoddy Battle 2 is even released. We should have a discussion of switching over when it does get released, and probably will, but that's months from now.

I think what's more important is that just because the engine that we use to test/collect evidence might be changing doesn't mean the method will change. We should set up guidelines on how we should conduct tests. And more specifically, what we want to test.

And at this early point in the site, I think it's far more important to test out clauses such as Sleep, OHKO, Evasion, etc... rather than Pokemon tier tests.

[Enkidu]

Organize the tiers based on pokemon's usefulness/strength, not how often they are used?

OU = First Class

UU = Second Class

NU = Third class

NFE = NFE

Between most of the pokemon sites out on the internet we have all the information to order most of the pokemon ourselves, with maybe 40 - 50 pokemon actually being suspect as to whether they belong in 1st Class or 2nd class.

Obviously I just made up the names on the spot, so they are pretty bad . But I think it explains my point rather well.

Also the current smogon tier list cant...actually...be...used. They only used usage statistics for OU/UU/NU right now and are waiting to see which pokemon are nominated as too powerful or too weak for the current metagame they are in. ( Hence why things like Medicham, Floatzel, Kangaskhan, Jumpluff, Zangoose are all NU even though they work well in OU given some leeway , although are all much better suited to UU . They just aren't used enough.)

Edit* also why test the clauses? I can theorymon a scenario right now. You switch in a swampert > Your opponent switches in a Breloom. Breloom spores either swampert or the switch in, subs up and spores the next switch in, and the next one, and the next one, and the next one.

Or as breloom spores the first one/ the switch in, you use something like sleep talk while it subs up to do some damage...it switches out to an appropriate counter and kills your only way of dealing with it > OR you manage to predict around, your a great player! You only take one pokemon to beat it! your opponent switches in another pokemon with spore

Your opponent switches in a Breloom. Breloom spores either the switch in or active pokemon, subs up and spores the next switch in, and the next one, and the next one, and the next one. or if you stay in it leech seeds/seed bombs/focus punchs/ Your entire team to death because not many decent pokemon even have insomnia and most ghost pokemon outside of the Rotom formes and dusknoir can even take a hit.

2nd edit* All in all, I'm not a huge fan of Smogon, but these clauses help ALOT with team building, opening up many strategies that without them wouldn't be possible. Without OHKO you would NEED a pokemon with sturdy. Without Sleep clause you would need a way to beat every common status inducer It would ruin the small bit of variety that Pokemon actually has competitively.

[randomspot555]

Organize the tiers based on pokemon's usefulness/strength, not how often they are used?

"Usefulness/strength" gets very close to theory-mon. There SHOULD be a prevention for some Pokemon that, no matter how much they aren't used, shouldn't drop down to UU. That's the entire point of the BL tier, to make sure that those Pokemon (Staraptor, Abomasnow, and like 3 or so others) don't drop to UU.

And on a more nitpicking note, I don't think tiers that aren't based on usage should use names such as "Overused."

Between most of the pokemon sites out on the internet we have all the information to order most of the pokemon ourselves, with maybe 40 - 50 pokemon actually being suspect as to whether they belong in 1st Class or 2nd class.

But here's the thing about Pokemon. In theory, when a new game is released and a battle simulator like Shoddy is updated, ALL the moves and new stuff, they're available right then. But despite no new moves being introduced between the release of D/P and the release of Plat, Pokemon still had new sets being created, raising and lowering in popularity. Aerodactyl couldn't function as a Choice Band user anymore due to Stealth Rock, but it's a great suicide lead, as just one example.

Basically, it's impossible to determine how "useful" a Pokemon can be. If a new set comes up or a tier test is done, it can turn the game around.

Also the current smogon tier list cant...actually...be...used. They only used usage statistics for OU/UU/NU right now and are waiting to see which pokemon are nominated as too powerful or too weak for the current metagame they are in. ( Hence why things like Medicham, Floatzel, Kangaskhan, Jumpluff, Zangoose are all NU even though they work well in OU given some leeway , although are all much better suited to UU . They just aren't used enough.)

Here's where I disagree. Non-OU Pokemon can be viable in OU. But only to a certain extent, when they can perform a unique role. But if an OU Pokemon can perform the same role and better, then there's no reason not to use it.

For example, Blastoise. Blastoise can Rapid Spin, he can RestTalk. That's about it. You COULD have him run a Choice Band set in OU, but many others would perform a Band set better.

Edit* also why test the clauses? I can theorymon a scenario right now. You switch in a swampert > Your opponent switches in a Breloom. Breloom spores either swampert or the switch in, subs up and spores the next switch in, and the next one, and the next one, and the next one.

Or as breloom spores the first one/ the switch in, you use something like sleep talk while it subs up to do some damage...it switches out to an appropriate counter and kills your only way of dealing with it >

Your opponent switches in a Breloom. Breloom spores either the switch in or active pokemon, subs up and spores the next switch in, and the next one, and the next one, and the next one. or if you stay in in leech seeds/seed bombs/focus punchs/ Your entire team to death because not many decent pokemon even have insomnia.

To an extent, I see your point. But a repeated focus is that PP wants to gather evidence and do the research ourselves to draw our own conclusions, not rely on others. In my mind, if we can reach a wide consensus on something that's "obvious", we can skip an official test. But we need to set up a method of conducting tests before we should even talk about what to or what not to test.