Standard Rules (as of April 15 from Smogon.com)+General Smogon discussion

[Destati]

Why do you trust the results of a particular group of people who get their stats from users using a particular program that is not built on reverse engineering? Shoddy is built from experimental results and trial, etc. Meaning incorrect implementations will affect battles to be different than if people were battling using a DS and hence people will adjust their teams to that environment. This may or may not be close to what the rules should be for people not using shoddy.

I do not understand what you mean. The Damage calculations are the same. The IV and EV system is the same. Even Illegal algorithms, such as Bold Zapdoses with perfect IVs are banned. The two environments are identical.

What you can trust is that we will find out all game mechanics for each move and modify shoddy to work as the game does.

Another things that makes a potential difference is that you can make the perfect team on shoddy and many people will battle with those, but those teams may or may not be feasible for people not using shoddy. So why should the stats for people who can make any team they want affect people who are playing with a DS on wi-fi and not using pokesav to make their teams?

So basically you're talking about people with Perfect IV Pokemon against those without. Well, thats why you breed. To get those stats. Every stat besides Speed has random numbers involved in it. A Lucario with 30 sp. atk EVs instead of 31 Sp. atk EVs will still be able to 2HKO a Blissey with Focus Blast (and choice specs).

Also, I'm sure 99% of people on Projectpokemon are using Pokesav Pokemon. Thats this site's greatest appeal.

Also, a post thats edited before anyone else posts doesn't show the EDIT thing under it. Someone changed the **** to dust. You were the first person to post after me when it suddenly changed. The only other possibility is that another mod appeared and changed it right before you posted.

---------- Post added at 06:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ----------

Varna, do you know why Garchomp was banned? One of the reasons was because it overwhelmed the metagame. People had to have a Pokemon soley to counter Garchomp.

Sleep is the exact same thing. So now we all need to carry Lum berries to save ourselves from Breloom? The Metagame would turn into the same thing. And it did. This was in the past during the Emerald generation. Breloom was godly, so Smogon had two options: Ban Breloom or restrict Sleep. They chose to restrict sleep.

And again, this is more than just a Smogon thing. Its in Pokemon Battle Revolution and is even an official tournament rule. Now you're not only debating Smogon, you're debating Nintendo.

[Enkidu]

And on a more nitpicking note, I don't think tiers that aren't based on usage should use names such as "Overused."

The OU = First class was a "name change" suggestion as that wouldnt make sense to call it OU if it was based off of Usefulness.

Usefulness also is referring to how well a pokemon accomplishes a specific task/role in comparison to other pokemon.

Basically, it's impossible to determine how "useful" a Pokemon can be. If a new set comes up or a tier test is done, it can turn the game around.

Again I should have made clear how I was using that particular word, I apologize.

Here's where I disagree. Non-OU Pokemon can be viable in OU. But only to a certain extent, when they can perform a unique role. But if an OU Pokemon can perform the same role and better, then there's no reason not to use it.

What...? Thats not what I was even talking about with

Also the current smogon tier list cant...actually...be...used. They only used usage statistics for OU/UU/NU right now and are waiting to see which pokemon are nominated as too powerful or too weak for the current metagame they are in. ( Hence why things like Medicham, Floatzel, Kangaskhan, Jumpluff, Zangoose are all NU even though they work well in OU given some leeway , although are all much better suited to UU . They just aren't used enough.)

The bolded part is mostly what you said. So, what are you referring to?

To an extent, I see your point. But a repeated focus is that PP wants to gather evidence and do the research ourselves to draw our own conclusions, not rely on others. In my mind, if we can reach a wide consensus on something that's "obvious", we can skip an official test. But we need to set up a method of conducting tests before we should even talk about what to or what not to test.

And I didn't say we shouldn't gather our own evidence, but from what you guys are saying it seems more like we should disregard nearly everything that any other community has done and start from the ground up ourselves, when I think one of our greatest advantages is that we have so much to use as a resource in our endeavor.

[Greencat]

Also, I'm sure 99% of people on Projectpokemon are using Pokesav Pokemon. Thats this site's greatest appeal.

Don't exaggerated. I'm sure that if you grabbed a 100 Pokemon from the site, only one would be legit. -.- And I didn't know when one word was edited off, it meant almost all of your words were edited and you were stuffed with words you didn't mean to say.[/sarcasm]

Well, you see, when moderators edit my posts they tend to replace a lot of my words with other words.

I EDITED your post! "****" Signifies anger and tensions are already high in here. It wouldn't be as bad if posted elsewhere, but this thread is in a "High Tension" status already.

And what does it matter if it's legit or Illegal? As long as it's Legal than it's almost the same. =|

[Enkidu]

Don't exaggerated. I'm sure that if you grabbed a 100 Pokemon from the site, only one would be legit. -.-[/sarcasm]

And what does it matter if it's legit or Illegal? As long as it's Legal than it's almost the same. =|

Wha....t? Wrong thread? Delete someones post??

[Greencat]

Oh, I had it open and didn't post for awhile. It was directed at Destati. ;P

[Destati]

what did I say? Now I'm lost too.

[randomspot555]

The OU = First class was a "name change" suggestion as that wouldnt make sense to call it OU if it was based off of Usefulness.

That was me misreading. My bad.

Usefulness also is referring to how well a pokemon accomplishes a specific task/role in comparison to other pokemon.

But as I've witnessed, these things can change. Suicide leads basically bought Aerodactyl from UU to OU, even though that move set was available at the time of his downfall.

There are a few that can be easily said and that won't change unless drastic measures are taken place. Blissey is the best special wall, bar none. But much else can be in some sort of change. If you look at the Shoddy statistics, you'll see points when suicide leads are popular and when bulky leads are popular. Donphan might be the preferred Rapid Spinner one month and then Claydol is it the next.

I just think it's very hard to assign roles and say how useful a Pokemon is, in the vast majority of cases.

Again I should have made clear how I was using that particular word, I apologize.

The bolded part is mostly what you said. So, what are you referring to?

I just wanted to diffuse the whole "omgzers WEEZING IN UU?" flamefest that'll come up. Not specifically directed to you. But too many conversations, when talking about UU in OU, often turn to "Well this pet favorite of mine can beat OU Pokes down, so why's it UU??".

And I didn't say we shouldn't gather our own evidence, but from what you guys are saying it seems more like we should disregard nearly everything that any other community has done and start from the ground up ourselves, when I think one of our greatest advantages is that we have so much to use as a resource in our endeavor.

To an extent, I agree. There are certainly more important clauses to test than Sleep. But before the massive UU/NU undertaking started at Smogon, there was talk about testing a good chunk of Uber tiered Pokemon in OU. Not because anyone actually thought Mew was viable in OU, but as to have some sort of evidence to back up Mew's uber tiering, rather than "Well, it was uber last gen." Because the 4th gen isn't the 3rd gen. If any site is to make decisions about the 4th gen metagame, it should be using evidence from the 4th gen game, not precedent from previous generations.

For example, here's a post that explains (much better than I can) why OHKO moves should be tested: link

This isn't GSC anymore, where FishTauros would murder entire teams with "252 EVs in every stat". Those of you who argue OHKOs would definitely break the game but who also think Stealth Rock isn't breaking the game are therefore being kind of hypocritical. We don't know anything worthwhile about OHKOs in Platinum until we test them in Platinum.

Replace OHKO with whatever.

[Greencat]

@ Destati:

Also, I'm sure 99% of people on Projectpokemon are using Pokesav Pokemon. Thats this site's greatest appeal.

Don't exaggerated. I'm sure that if you grabbed a 100 Pokemon from the site, only one would be legit. -.- And I didn't know when one word was edited off, it meant almost all of your words were edited and you were stuffed with words you didn't mean to say.[/sarcasm]

Well, you see, when moderators edit my posts they tend to replace a lot of my words with other words.

I EDITED your post! "****" Signifies anger and tensions are already high in here. It wouldn't be as bad if posted elsewhere, but this thread is in a "High Tension" status already.

And what does it matter if it's legit or Illegal? As long as it's Legal than it's almost the same. =|

[Destati]

Ok, here's why Mew is uber. Mew has no counter. You never know what move Mew is going to use. Its unpredictable. Its as though you were playing chess with another person, except all their pieces looked the same but behaved differently and all started in different locations. There's a possibility of countering him eventually, but not before they've swept you. If you see a Lucario you know what to expect. Either a special sweeper or a physical sweeper. Any other set is just foolish.

Smogon says a pokemon like Metagross is a good counter to Mew, but thats assuming Mew doesn't have Swords Dance and Earthquake.

---------- Post added at 07:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:02 PM ----------

That wasn't really exageration. fine, MOST people here either hack or obtain hacks from other members.

[randomspot555]

Ok, here's why Mew is uber. Mew has no counter. You never know what move Mew is going to use. Its unpredictable. Its as though you were playing chess with another person, except all their pieces looked the same but behaved differently and all started in different locations. There's a possibility of countering him eventually, but not before they've swept you. If you see a Lucario you know what to expect. Either a special sweeper or a physical sweeper. Any other set is just foolish.

While you're correct in what you post, you also missed the point. Tier and clause decisions should be made with 4th gen testing, not whatever happened in previous generations. Testing an uber, at the very least, gives a community the ability to define WHY it's uber now, rather than just assuming with "Well, it was last time." If the game has changed since OHKO, for example, were tested, then they deserve to be re-tested. Because you can't base a decision for the 4th gen made with 2nd gen evidence. And regardless of how obvious I see Garchomp being where it should be, it should be tested again, because the game has changed. Same will eventually go for Manaphy and Latias.

[SCV]

I do not understand what you mean. The Damage calculations are the same. The IV and EV system is the same. Even Illegal algorithms, such as Bold Zapdoses with perfect IVs are banned. The two environments are identical.

Those are by far not the only restrictions in the game.

What you can trust is that we will find out all game mechanics for each move and modify shoddy to work as the game does.

Who is "we" and how do you plan to do that?

Also, I'm sure 99% of people on Projectpokemon are using Pokesav Pokemon. Thats this site's greatest appeal.

Well, Project Pokemon is not about Pokesav, I would appreciate it if you stop thinking that and 99% is wrong. We can definately find 10 people who don't use pokesav for their teams. 1 being me.

[QOUTE]Also, a post thats edited before anyone else posts doesn't show the EDIT thing under it. Someone changed the **** to dust. You were the first person to post after me when it suddenly changed. The only other possibility is that another mod appeared and changed it right before you posted.

Yeah, I don't see how that becomes chainging alot of words.

[Enkidu]

I don't use Pokesav either ( lack of a flash cart ) .

While you're correct in what you post, you also missed the point. Tier and clause decisions should be made with 4th gen testing, not whatever happened in previous generations. Testing an uber, at the very least, gives a community the ability to define WHY it's uber now, rather than just assuming with "Well, it was last time." If the game has changed since OHKO, for example, were tested, then they deserve to be re-tested. Because you can't base a decision for the 4th gen made with 2nd gen evidence. And regardless of how obvious I see Garchomp being where it should be, it should be tested again, because the game has changed. Same will eventually go for Manaphy and Latias.

I'm sure no one has a problem with this, but as I said before it sounded like me as if everyone wanted to completely disregard the work of other communities and start from scratch when we have so much to work with, re-work and start from scratch that simply pushing everything else aside and "doing our own thing" is not the way to go about it.

[Destati]

While you're correct in what you post, you also missed the point. Tier and clause decisions should be made with 4th gen testing, not whatever happened in previous generations. Testing an uber, at the very least, gives a community the ability to define WHY it's uber now, rather than just assuming with "Well, it was last time." If the game has changed since OHKO, for example, were tested, then they deserve to be re-tested. Because you can't base a decision for the 4th gen made with 2nd gen evidence. And regardless of how obvious I see Garchomp being where it should be, it should be tested again, because the game has changed. Same will eventually go for Manaphy and Latias.

Mew HAS been tested for 4th Gen. Its was tested a looong time ago. Its almost been 2 years since Diamond Pearl came out in America, and the added moves in Platinum are hardly going to make a difference. Garchomp doesn't need to be tested again. Its strongest "counters" didn't get any buffs to help counter Garchomp at all. Latias was legalized during Platinum, largely due to its help in balancing the Platinum metagame.

SCV, the second quote was actually one of your quotes. I just accidently forgot to quote it. And I thought you were the one that editted the post, k?

[Illithian]

A lot of people seemingly have difficulty understanding the point of the tier system.

The tier system is designed for the metagames. It was designed so certain pokemon could be banned for a metagame. It isn't designed as a guide for which pokemon you should use, its a guide for which pokemon you can't use. Nothing else.

Of course there is some separation based on battle usefulness, but all pokemon have situational usefulness and if you build a team around a pokemon and play it skillfully, it will work fine. The point of the tier system isnt to say that all the pokemon in NU suck, its to say that all the pokemon in Uber are too powerful for the Standard metagame. After all, Entei has a BST of 580 and yet hes in NU.

Oh, and for those of you who care, X-Act has an incredible guide on how to rate a pokemon's base stats. Viewable here.

While you're correct in what you post, you also missed the point. Tier and clause decisions should be made with 4th gen testing, not whatever happened in previous generations. Testing an uber, at the very least, gives a community the ability to define WHY it's uber now, rather than just assuming with "Well, it was last time." If the game has changed since OHKO, for example, were tested, then they deserve to be re-tested. Because you can't base a decision for the 4th gen made with 2nd gen evidence. And regardless of how obvious I see Garchomp being where it should be, it should be tested again, because the game has changed. Same will eventually go for Manaphy and Latias.

@Randomspot;

Quite literally, all pokemon have been tested and analyzed. DP has been out since 07, theres been time. Hundreds of new analysis' have been written. When theres an issue with a certain pokemon, its brought up on smogon and people will test it. Everything has been tested and retested; its just a matter of where you look.

[Varna]

Sleep is the exact same thing. So now we all need to carry Lum berries to save ourselves from Breloom? The Metagame would turn into the same thing. And it did. This was in the past during the Emerald generation. Breloom was godly, so Smogon had two options: Ban Breloom or restrict Sleep. They chose to restrict sleep.

Taunt it, or use the ability Insomnia or Early Bird. Problem solved. It's not half as big of a deal as you're making it out to be. If you get swept, it's because you have terrible foresight in team building, or you simply got paired up with an autoloss. Sucks to be you.

And again, this is more than just a Smogon thing. Its in Pokemon Battle Revolution and is even an official tournament rule. Now you're not only debating Smogon, you're debating Nintendo.

Please point out where said sleep clause is for me, will you? Simply because it is an OPTION in Battle Revolution does not instantly make it official.

[Illithian]

Taunt it, or use the ability Insomnia or Early Bird. Problem solved. It's not half as big of a deal as you're making it out to be. If you get swept, it's because you have terrible foresight in team building, or you simply got paired up with an autoloss. Sucks to be you.

I Loled for about a minute when I read about reading the ability Insomnia. Yeah, because there are definitely useful pokemon that have that ability. /sarcasm. Well, I suppose Honchkrow does, but that didn't exist last generation.

I don't think its exactly fair to let your team get sleeped by a 100% spore. On the other hand, Breloom only has 70 base speed which is rather mediocre, so it is counterable, on the assumption you can OHKO it? I suppose a Brave Bird might.

In any case, sleep clause is useful to no end. If my entire team is asleep, I would just give in out of boredom; no point waiting.

Please point out where said sleep clause is for me, will you? Simply because it is an OPTION in Battle Revolution does not instantly make it official.

It is not official as far as I know. Hmm, maybe I should bring a scarfed Breloom to the Seattle tournament?

[Varna]

I Loled for about a minute when I read about reading the ability Insomnia. Yeah, because there are definitely useful pokemon that have that ability. /sarcasm. Well, I suppose Honchkrow does, but that didn't exist last generation.

I don't think its exactly fair to let your team get sleeped by a 100% spore. On the other hand, Breloom only has 70 base speed which is rather mediocre, so it is counterable, on the assumption you can OHKO it? I suppose a Brave Bird might.

In any case, sleep clause is useful to no end. If my entire team is asleep, I would just give in out of boredom; no point waiting.

What exactly is wrong with Hypno, or even Banette? Hell, Banette is a twofold counter there - not effected by Focus Punch AND Spore, and has a good attack stat to boot.

OHKOing it is not the only option, though it's certainly a good one. I already even mentioned Taunt.

If your entire team gets put to sleep, you built a shitty team or you weren't prepared. Simple as that.

[randomspot555]

If your entire team gets put to sleep, you built a shitty team or you weren't prepared. Simple as that.

Yeah, you can say that. But do you build your teams so that, just in case Breloom or Scarf Dark Void Smeargle pops up, every Pokemon can stay awake or attack while asleep? Because if you don't, your teams are just as poorly built as anyone else's.

As to other points:

@Randomspot;

Quite literally, all pokemon have been tested and analyzed. DP has been out since 07, theres been time. Hundreds of new analysis' have been written. When theres an issue with a certain pokemon, its brought up on smogon and people will test it. Everything has been tested and retested; its just a matter of where you look.

Mew HAS been tested for 4th Gen. Its was tested a looong time ago. Its almost been 2 years since Diamond Pearl came out in America, and the added moves in Platinum are hardly going to make a difference. Garchomp doesn't need to be tested again. Its strongest "counters" didn't get any buffs to help counter Garchomp at all. Latias was legalized during Platinum, largely due to its help in balancing the Platinum metagame.

SCV, the second quote was actually one of your quotes. I just accidently forgot to quote it. And I thought you were the one that editted the post, k?

As of this Order of Operations, Mew has not been tested and there are responses throughout the thread talking why to/why not to test Mew. It's safe to say not every Pokemon has been tested. Unless you two can source when/where it was tested and what the vote was.

[Destati]

*looks at time posted*

Jun 26th, 2008, 8:59:44 AM

Try this one instead

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50920

Jumpman said this:

And I'm pretty sure the consensus now is that Mew shouldn't be a Suspect

Here are some random quotes regarding Mew

Mew has so many options available and, from my understanding, it's way to difficult to stop it from doing it's thing. It's Gliscor that isn't limited to just attack+speed. Access to Nasty Plot doesn't help its cause either, making it able to sweep on it's own.

I would honestly be more worried about the sweeper sets Mekkah presented a while ago then Mew Baton Passing out. Basically, Mew has recovery, a +2 Attack and SpA move, and can hit with extremely powerful moves on both sides of the spectrum. Taunt is the big one here, and Trick is also huge. So again, last priority (I think you guys already said its off the list though)

+ Allows it to cripple a key counter to a BP chain

+ Cripple walls so it can set up a boost to pass or sweep with

+ Allows use of Choice items to deliver fast statuses with Scarf, and huge hits with Band or Specs

+ Can use all Choice items VERY well

+ Due to unpredictablity, it may be hard to expect a Trick

You're right. They never tested Mew because they don't need to test Mew. This is their suspect list:

Latias without Soul Dew

Latios without Soul Dew

Latias with Soul Dew

Latios with Soul Dew

Evasion Clause

Manaphy

Species Clause

OHKO Clause

They already tested Lati@s without Soul Dew. Latios passed, Latias did not. Obviously that also means Latios WITH Soul Dew will not pass either, so the list looks like this:

Latias with Soul Dew

Evasion Clause

Manaphy

Species Clause

OHKO Clause

I don't see the sense in doing what they're already going to be doing. Also, that order isn't static. It may change later. In fact, I believe they're doing Manaphy right now based on this thread

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53062

---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:30 PM ----------

Also, this link might help too

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51472

[randomspot555]

I'm perfectly aware of what's going on, as far as testing, at Smogon. Not only do I keep up with their forums, but Jumpman also posts in the Pokemon thread over at the Something Awful forums.

The point of the post is that two posters made two false claims: That Mew has been tested (it hasn't, and the point was that ubers/clauses/whatever should be tested so the research is reflective of the current metagame, not whatever happened in RBY/GSC/RSE) and that all Pokemon have been tested.

Of course, regardless of the specific example (which I pulled out of my hat, but just so happened to be true), the meaning of the message was the same. The metagame and the rules that regulate it should be based on what's going on now. This is especially true for clauses that haven't been tested for years (OHKO, Evasion), or Pokemon that were just automatically bumped up to tiers (Manaphy, for example, was bumped to Uber without a test after it spent some time in OU).

You have the right to your own opinion. About the need to test pokemon tiers/clauses/etc, for example. You do not have the right to your own facts (they have been tested).

[Destati]

So... now what? This thread originally started as a way to show users the standard rules that everyone plays with. Smogon's never going to just be "satisfied" with the metagame. But even with their size they can only do so much at once. They talked about testing multiple things at a time, but its just not possible, even with two seperate ladders. All we can do is wait it out. The remaining things that need to be tested are suspect. That doesn't mean they're going to make them all legal (in terms of OU play) just because there's a shread of doubt in their minds. They were illegal/uber, and they're going to stay in their respective category until they can get to them. However, do not expect much change. The only suspect that might have a compelling arguement is Manaphy, but even thats iffy. Here's what I think:

Latias with Soul Dew - This thing is naturally banned. Latias is most often used as a sweeper rather than a tank, and the sp. atk bonus would just set it over the limit.

Evasion Clause - Never going to happen. Nothing changed in terms of Evasion from RBY to now. The only thing that has changed is the implementation of more perfect accuracy moves, all of which are below 60 power besides Aura Sphere (Only three non-uber Pokemon can learn that and they are all OU)

Manaphy We thought Suicune was monsterous. Tail Glow, Rest, Rain Dance and Surf can be destructive. Grass Knot hits Manaphy for nothing, and with enough evs in sp. def Manaphy can eat t-bolts and rest off the remaining damage with its 100% recovery move with high pp.

Species Clause I think the only reason this Clause exists is because its an official Nintendo Clause. Teams that would violate this clause would not work in the Battle Frontier or Battle Revolution. I see no harm in removing this Clause besides conflicts with official Nintendo things.

OHKO Clause Similar deal with evasion clause. It will essentially turn the game into a luck based coin flip instead of a game using actual strategy. Even Articuno isn't that big of a problem with Mind Reader. Its OHKO in general

[Syberia]

Removing species clause would be a horrible idea. Battles would basically be decided based on what you brought with you from the beginning, even moreso than they are now. And imagine someone using a SD Lucario and a Specs Lucario on the same team, both named LUCARIO. Even once you did figure out that they had both, you'd still never know which one you were facing (unless they had different amounts of damage and you memorized which was which).

It is already impossible to prepare for every thread in D/P, if you had to start accounting for two or more different variations of the same thread (often, one easily wipes out counters to the other), I have no doubt that pokemon would be even less about skill than it is now, and depend way more on simply who brought the right pokes with them.

Secondly, Smogon does not "get everything right," for the simple reason that most of the decisions they make have no right or wrong answer. The simple fact of how hotly contested the last few suspect tests have been can attest to this. They depend on peoples' subjective feelings about pokemon, and their effects on the metagame based on a subjectively determined set of criteria of what makes an uber (don't get me started on how the criteria favor stall-based pokemon while seeking to exclude offensive ones). It's definitely not hard science, and it shouldn't be. Colin tried to use hard science (statistics) to determine an ubers list on Official Server, and it ended up being drastically different from what the players actually wanted.

Thirdly, Smogon's suspect test process is, quite frankly, a crock of shit. People who play a lot, and win a lot, don't get to vote simply because they may not write as well as others. These people clearly have the requisite metagame experience to make a decision on a suspect, as they played and won enough to meet the voting requirements. I fail to see where writing ability factors into the decision at all. Not to mention, one person (Jumpman) has the sole authority to judge paragraph submissions, and he does so in private, and his decisions are not open to scrutiny by anyone else. When he did disclose his reasons, they included such sentiments as "I don't agree with your reasoning," and "taking into account your posting history on this forum." The first is totally subjective, and the second is quite irrelevant (not to mention a strong personal bias).

A vote should be just that - a vote.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Syberia

[Enkidu]

Removing species clause would be a horrible idea. Battles would basically be decided based on what you brought with you from the beginning, even moreso than they are now. And imagine someone using a SD Lucario and a Specs Lucario on the same team, both named LUCARIO. Even once you did figure out that they had both, you'd still never know which one you were facing (unless they had different amounts of damage and you memorized which was which).

It is already impossible to prepare for every thread in D/P, if you had to start accounting for two or more different variations of the same thread (often, one easily wipes out counters to the other), I have no doubt that pokemon would be even less about skill than it is now, and depend way more on simply who brought the right pokes with them.

Secondly, Smogon does not "get everything right," for the simple reason that most of the decisions they make have no right or wrong answer. The simple fact of how heated and close the last few suspect tests have been can attest to this. They depend on peoples' subjective feelings about pokemon, and their effects on the metagame based on a subjectively determined set of criteria of what makes an uber (don't get me started on how the criteria favor stall-based pokemon while seeking to exclude offensive ones). It's definitely not hard science, and it shouldn't be. Colin tried to use hard science (statistics) to determine an ubers list on Official Server, and it ended up being drastically different from what the players actually wanted.

Thirdly, Smogon's suspect test process is, quite frankly, a crock of shit. People who play a lot, and win a lot, don't get to vote simply because they may not write as well as others. These people clearly have the requisite metagame experience to make a decision on a suspect, as they played and won enough to meet the voting requirements. I fail to see where writing ability factors into the decision at all. Not to mention, one person (Jumpman) has the sole authority to judge paragraph submissions, and he does so in private, and his decisions are not open to scrutiny by anyone else. When he did disclose his reasons, they included such sentiments as "I don't agree with your reasoning," and "taking into account your posting history on this forum." The first is totally subjective, and the second is quite irrelevant (not to mention a strong personal bias).

A vote should be just that - a vote.

Yes your right. but as of right now everyone's just saying the same thing over and over again. We're getting no where.

[Silent Storm]

Removing species clause would be a horrible idea. Battles would basically be decided based on what you brought with you from the beginning, even moreso than they are now. And imagine someone using a SD Lucario and a Specs Lucario on the same team, both named LUCARIO. Even once you did figure out that they had both, you'd still never know which one you were facing (unless they had different amounts of damage and you memorized which was which).

It is already impossible to prepare for every thread in D/P, if you had to start accounting for two or more different variations of the same thread (often, one easily wipes out counters to the other), I have no doubt that pokemon would be even less about skill than it is now, and depend way more on simply who brought the right pokes with them.

Secondly, Smogon does not "get everything right," for the simple reason that most of the decisions they make have no right or wrong answer. The simple fact of how hotly contested the last few suspect tests have been can attest to this. They depend on peoples' subjective feelings about pokemon, and their effects on the metagame based on a subjectively determined set of criteria of what makes an uber (don't get me started on how the criteria favor stall-based pokemon while seeking to exclude offensive ones). It's definitely not hard science, and it shouldn't be. Colin tried to use hard science (statistics) to determine an ubers list on Official Server, and it ended up being drastically different from what the players actually wanted.

Thirdly, Smogon's suspect test process is, quite frankly, a crock of shit. People who play a lot, and win a lot, don't get to vote simply because they may not write as well as others. These people clearly have the requisite metagame experience to make a decision on a suspect, as they played and won enough to meet the voting requirements. I fail to see where writing ability factors into the decision at all. Not to mention, one person (Jumpman) has the sole authority to judge paragraph submissions, and he does so in private, and his decisions are not open to scrutiny by anyone else. When he did disclose his reasons, they included such sentiments as "I don't agree with your reasoning," and "taking into account your posting history on this forum." The first is totally subjective, and the second is quite irrelevant (not to mention a strong personal bias).

A vote should be just that - a vote.

Agreed, after the Latios vote I just gave up on smogon.

[wraith89]

Agreed, after the Latios vote I just gave up on smogon.

Wait I don't get it. Recently I heard Latias w/o Soul Dew is allowed in OU, but what happened with Latios? Is he just too strong for OU without Soul Dew?