research Gen 3 Event Generation Algorithm Research (10ANNIV, etc)

[Invader TAK]

2 minutes ago, ajxpk said:

Yes. I mean if theres some geek out there who can do it, a multiboot ROM like this could be even made from the scratch. Not that I say it would be easy. And I personally can't do it.
But this would be an option to please everyone who is afraid that something gets devalued.

The ROCKS Metang as sad as it is, is one of the Event Pokémon I don't have.
I would have to collect one to confirm what kind of Trash Bytes it has.
I have the Japanese Festa Metang but there's a possibility that the ROCKS Metang is different.
Later I will make a list of what's still missing in my collection so that everyone has an overwiew.

Here's a threat on Digiex that has saves with at least one ROCKS Metang (and a bunch of other events, including various 10ANIV ones) that HaxAras has been helping with: http://digiex.net/downloads/download-center-2-0/nintendo-game-boy-content-gb-gbc-gba/save-games/14690-pokemon-gen3-legit-event-pokemon-save-ruby-sapphire-emerald-firered-leafgreen.html

 

Direct Link to Latest Saves: http://digiex.net/attachments/downloads/download-center-2-0/nintendo-game-boy-content-gb-gbc-gba/save-games/15053d1479696106-pokemon-gen3-legit-event-pokemon-save-ruby-sapphire-emerald-firered-leafgreen-pokemon-fire-red-gen3-legit-event-pokemon-20-11-16.zip

[Guest]

Thanks! I know this save. I forgot to mention this...
I already checked the ROCKS Metang from this save file and it has unique Trash Bytes.
It would be good to check at least one other ROCKS Metang from another source because unique Trash Bytes is always a bit suspicious.

Edited December 16, 2016 by ajxpk

[Invader TAK]

1 minute ago, ajxpk said:

Thanks! I know this save. I forgot to mention this...
I already checked the ROCKS Metang from this save file and it has unique Trash Bytes.
It would be good to check at least one other ROCKS Metang from another source because unique Trash Bytes is always a bit suspicious.

Good to know. Did you run through the other 10ANIV Pokemon on that save to see how their trash bytes matched up?

[Guest]

Yes and they do.

Would be great to see if those from "Party of the Decade" do as well.
They propably should but I would like to be able confirm it.
+ the 10th Anniversary Event Pokémon from the other European countries.
Would be pretty surprised if they're different tho'...

 

[theSLAYER]

2 hours ago, XJ55 said:

I've been told to come here by a user who contacted me on ebay and explain once again. But I feel like I already have a few months ago:

Message:

Response:

There are several other messages after that.

In short, I don't sell carts that I've modified, I bought them all just like I sell them. If anyone doubted me because of the decchi file, it is all explained in those pages, and Purin got mails proving that I was scammed  So I learned that carts can be modified, but I don't have any equipment to do this.

To be honest, after learning that, I really started thinking I was scammed even when I bought the lot of carts, since it seems that in case you have the right nintendo equipment you can do wonderds with it. I called the guy after that discussion, but nothing came out of the convo. I spent much more than I got by selling a few carts in the past few years, and to my knowledge none of the carts are fake but the azure flute one that I binned months ago.

I got a loan in order to buy all those carts when I did and I'm still paying money, that's why I sell some sometimes. Prices are not even the ones I listed, it's mostly just to show off, receive offers and talk about other distributions with other people. I don't sell every time, and usually when people contact me we just end up talking about interesting pokemon stuff, and I enjoy that.

I'm done talking about this and I don't think I'll keep reading this convo unless someone points it at me again... You can believe they are fake because they do not come with the system. I do own a few of those distribution systems ( quite a few were sold years ago on nintendoage. Shiny Zigzagoon, Aurora EUR, 10ANNIV, Aura Mew) and it doesn't take much to take the cart out of them. And the guy who sold them to me who I personally met to buy the carts didn't look like a scammer to me.

And I'm also almost done selling my spare carts, so I won't be called a scammer anymore.

Hope you all guys have great holidays.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it already clarified (back in that thread) that you're selling the actual carts you obtained,
as opposed cloning roms onto writable carts/bootlegs?

I think when "scammers" were being mentioned, we're talking about scenarios where people say bootlegged copies of something that already exists in the public online,
or cloning personal copies, and from what I understood, you don't fit those criteria.

Whoever PMed you on eBAY seems to have overreacted or misunderstood the scenario.

 

Back to the matter at hand, perhaps knowing the seed that 10anniv calls for RNG and stats generation will be a good place to start.

[Invader TAK]

5 hours ago, ajxpk said:

Yes and they do.

Would be great to see if those from "Party of the Decade" do as well.
They propably should but I would like to confirm it.

I'd assume those are from the same carts at the Journey Across America, considering they have the 10 ANIV OT.

 

EDIT: I just now realized that 10ANNIV = UK and 10 ANIV = US.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Invader TAK

[Guest]

No, the JAA tour ones are 00010, the Bryant Park ones are 06808.

They may function similarly, but they definitely couldn't have been re-using the same distro

[Invader TAK]

Just now, Ammako said:

No, the JAA tour ones are 00010, the Bryant Park ones are 06808 .

Ok, so they did use different carts at the Bryant Park event. Hopefully the different OT wouldn't change the generation algorithm too much.

[pMD]

Making any GBA rom public would not only create a chaos on ebay but it would make it easier for dissasemblers/modders to modify the rom into a different distribution rom. For instance,the Wondercard editor tool wasn't made available online until ~90% of the Gen III Wondercards was gathered so you could avoid getting fake Wondercards.

Now, the same could happen with GBA roms. Modders could create new distribution roms and sell them online for a huge amount of money.

[Guest]

If any of this had happened with 4th gen distro roms, then maybe you'd have a point.

[HaxAras]

1 minute ago, pMD said:

Making any GBA rom public would not only create a chaos on ebay

Chaos on Ebay just sounds overly dramatic. As stated above, in some cases several times. Scumbags will be scumbags and we can't control what they do with things that are publicly available. It's the responsibility of the buyers to look into things before they just go buying any random cart they come across.

There's also not a huge market for these anyway. It might even kill the market a little if people can just use a tool to get their own 10th anniversary Pokemon. People like me, who collect physical hardware will always be interested. But the rest, can just use a tool to get legit 10th anniversary Pokemon without spending thousands of dollars. 

Something I also said before and will say again. I will get one of these. I will dump it. Nothing you say will ever stop me or change my mind. To say I hate these people who hoard rare things that could benefit others because of it's "Trade value" or "Rarity" is an understatement.

As Invader Tak has posted above, I've contributed to a project to preserve as many legit gen 3 event Pokemon as possible, still on the original games. I've spent hours on that project and a decent chunk of money too. I spent hours filling up a Ruby save with shiny Berry Fix Zigzagoon, shared a save with R/S Regi Dolls so other people can get them legit, etc. Anything I have that I can, I will make public. 

[pMD]

34 minutes ago, Ammako said:

If any of this had happened with 4th gen distro roms, then maybe you'd have a point.

One of the reasons that it hasn't happened with 4th Gen distro roms is because DS dev/prototype carts look like this and slot-1 DS distribution carts look like this. That being said someone could not easily trick people into thinking that DS distro carts were the same size as the DS dev/prototype carts.

On the other hand, older GBA dev/prototype cartridges looked like this and newer ones looked like this. On both occasions, the prototype cartridges look exactly the same as the Nintendo distribution cartridges, so it would be easy for someone to flash ROMs on multiple GBA proto carts which are very cheap when the demo game is an unifished project of an unpopular game.

Edited December 16, 2016 by pMD

[Guest]

I mean, you know as well as I do that people can make bootlegs that are designed to look like genuine cartridges, they don't need to rewrite new roms onto dev cartridges.

And while I'm there, I'll say, the market for retail games is much higher than the market for distribution cartridges is. They can already make bootlegs and I can guarantee you they make more profit off making and selling bootlegs of retail games than they would with distribution cartridges. Sure, maybe they can sell one or two for a couple hundred dollars, but they can make more money off selling dozens of bootlegged retail games that are actually in demand.

You can claim that a rom being public would create chaos on eBay, but the market for those is so low that if everyone instantly started making these like you seem to think would happen, the profits would plummet and then it's not really worth doing anymore. But hey, you claimed that all the ones on ebay are already bootlegs, so how exactly does people continuing to do what they're already doing cause any harm? There's got to be a handful of bootleggers who shared the rom among each other and they're making bootlegs, the average joe won't be getting into making bootlegs any time soon regardless of roms being available or not.

2 hours ago, pMD said:

it would make it easier for dissasemblers/modders to modify the rom into a different distribution rom.

Why is that a bad thing?

2 hours ago, pMD said:

For instance,the Wondercard editor tool wasn't made available online until ~90% of the Gen III Wondercards was gathered so you could avoid getting fake Wondercards.

What does this have to do with anything?

 

Either way, if you're going to make claims like the ones you've been making, you gotta be ready to back yourself up. I can claim that if we do X then Y will happen, but if there isn't really any data or anything that points towards that, it doesn't really mean anything.

[Invader TAK]

Not to mention having access to DS distro ROMs to modify hasn't hurt that market in the slightest. And would have seen that affected YEARS ago, since the first DS distro to get dumped was the US GameStop Deoxys cart, in 2008.

[pMD]

48 minutes ago, Ammako said:

Why is that a bad thing?

Someone who has access to a specific GBA distribution rom could easily modify it and have it distribute a different event. That being said, this would be an excellent opportunity for him/her to sell "unreleased" GBA distribution roms/carts. For example, someone could make the 10ANNIV rom distribute the Wish Egg events and sell the roms or the carts for a huge amount of money on ebay or via private offers on trading forums. Sabresite & Bond697 probably had similar reasons to not make the rom available online when they disassembled the 10ANNIV rom back in the day.

Making the algorithm for the 10ANNIV event available online + implementing the injection feature of 10ANNIV events on Trigger's PC app would be the best idea in my opinion. A scene release of a GBA distribution ROM would open the floodgates of GBA distro rom piracy and would devalue one of the rare items that's left in Pokemon scene.

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, pMD said:

Someone who has access to a specific GBA distribution rom could easily modify it and have it distribute a different event. That being said, this would be an excellent opportunity for him/her to sell "unreleased" GBA distribution roms/carts. For example, someone could make the 10ANNIV rom distribute the Wish Egg events and sell the roms or the carts for a huge amount of money on ebay or via private offers on trading forums. Sabresite & Bond697 probably had similar reasons to not make the rom available online when they disassembled the 10ANNIV rom back in the day.

Making the algorithm for the 10ANNIV event available online + implementing the injection feature of 10ANNIV events on Trigger's PC app would be the best idea in my opinion. A scene release of a GBA distribution ROM would open the floodgates of GBA distro rom piracy and would devalue one of the rare items that's left in Pokemon scene.

 

1 hour ago, Invader TAK said:

Not to mention having access to DS distro ROMs to modify hasn't hurt that market in the slightest. And would have seen that affected YEARS ago, since the first DS distro to get dumped was the US GameStop Deoxys cart, in 2008.

 

I still have no idea why the Farfetch'd idea that scammers would immediately jump on it to make tons of fakes at a huge profit is more important than what the legitimate users from the community could make of it.

You're saying that every distro card on ebay is already fakes. e.g. they already have the roms, why aren't they already doing this?

Your point of view stands on very shaky ground.

[Invader TAK]

28 minutes ago, pMD said:

Making the algorithm for the 10ANNIV event available online + implementing the injection feature of 10ANNIV events on Trigger's PC app would be the best idea in my opinion.

Good news, that's the part we care about. Well, that using the algorithm to make 100% custom GBA distro ROMs and injection programs for DS, GameCube and Wii.

[pMD]

I wanted to express my opinion on this matter and I think I did. I don't think it would be heroic to make unabridged gba distro roms available online for free.

I really hope that this thread will get much exposure online, so more and more people can read about the dangers of online deals when it comes to distro carts/roms and don't just fall victims when the fake carts will pop up online.

[theSLAYER]

5 hours ago, pMD said:

Making the algorithm for the 10ANNIV event available online + implementing the injection feature of 10ANNIV events on Trigger's PC app would be the best idea in my opinion. A scene release of a GBA distribution ROM would open the floodgates of GBA distro rom piracy and would devalue one of the rare items that's left in Pokemon scene.

That's the thing.
Since back in Gen III, 10 years ago, it was difficult to verify legitimate contributions,
so I understand why they wouldn't want to distribute it then.

However, 10 years has passed, and I doubt that we will believe any contribution we received,
which is why I personally believe it is a great time to get one of those distro roms and crack it wide open in the public,
as well as for archiving purposes.

Even before the hack, but especially during us being hacked, I've come to value having multiple copies backed up on the net,
and across different platforms.
Upload servers can be taken down, get hacked, files get corrupted.

For these files which may seem like ancient property, contains precious data that should be preserved,
tools or games or saves alike.

 

[Invader TAK]

6 hours ago, theSLAYER said:

That's the thing.
Since back in Gen III, 10 years ago, it was difficult to verify legitimate contributions,
so I understand why they wouldn't want to distribute it then.

However, 10 years has passed, and I doubt that we will believe any contribution we received,
which is why I personally believe it is a great time to get one of those distro roms and crack it wide open in the public,
as well as for archiving purposes.

Even before the hack, but especially during us being hacked, I've come to value having multiple copies backed up on the net,
and across different platforms.
Upload servers can be taken down, get hacked, files get corrupted.

For these files which may seem like ancient property, contains precious data that should be preserved,
tools or games or saves alike.

 

Another thing to consider, Gen III is the first generation where distribution devices were either flat out made available to the public (Ageto Celebi disc, WISHMKR Jirachi disc, PAL Pokemon Channel, Eon Ticket e-Reader card) or were stolen from their event locations (the Shiny Zigzagoon GameCube demo discs, European Aurora Ticket cart, the MYSTRY Mew carts, the various 10th Anniversary carts). The same can't be said about the Gen 1 or 2 distribution methods. And personally, I wouldn't worry about the Gen 1 and 2 events (besides Virtual Console Mew) because unless you use a PC program, those Mews and Celebis will be forever stuck in Gens I and II.

For me, the fact that these Gen 3 events are able to be migrated to future generations is the reason to preserve not just the ones already collected, but the method to generate more. Especially considering some moves are still exclusive to these various events.

So bottom line, it's not about the actual distro ROMs (even though those would be AMAZING to have), it's about the method they use to generate the Pokemon or wirelessly send Wonder Cards so we can put that into custom ROMs that you could tell apart from the real ones.

Edited December 17, 2016 by Invader TAK

[Guest]

I would also add to this that hacking a ROM like this isn't an easy task as some people might think.
I'm not saying that it's not possible but definitely not for a newbie.
I even would go as far to say if these cartridges on ebay are fakes... we can at least assume that the ROMs are exact copies.
Because they would first have to decompress the ROM to change something.
+ It is likely that there was some kind of checksum protections going on ect. ect.
I even learned that the same ROM we talking about was object of research before.
I wasn't told who did it and it seems to be a strict secret, but I know it was distributed for research before.
The only known person who was able to successful disassemble/hack the ROM was Bond697.


Netherless even I haven't seen this ROM with my own eyes yet, I suppose it's much easier to just copy the original ROM.
Even if it really requires some special equipment. But I have even seen bootlegs of real games who were almost perfectly made.
So why it shouldn't be possible? And we don't know who did it exactly at the end.
But what I do know is that Nintendo of Europe has many divisions.
One of them is NBX who was/is responsible for the Benelux Union. (Netherlands, Belgium & Luxembourg.)
And I learned that most of the leaked stuff came frome there. Propably it was even someone who was responsible for the distribution.
No one knows what really happened than the people who did it.

Anyway I personally think it's kinda fishy that there are so many English European 10th Anniversary Cartridges.
It is just so weird that from other Distributions like Aura Mew in turn only a very few were being leaked. (Just 1?)
Besides we know that 10 Anniversary was dumped. But other Distribution cartridges weren't.
There are too many open questions about it and if it was dumped just for research alone is questionable. 
I wished whoever did it dumped the ROM from Aura Mew or from the European Aurora Ticket as well. 
Why did no one dump these anyway? I would really love to check them all out.

Anyway to the theory that "if it's getting leaked there will be chaos on ebay" and many fakes will pop up and fake cartridges from other distributions...
I really highly doubt that such a dramatic scene will happen IF it ever happens. And I wonder who exactly will be protected if it doesn't get leaked.
People who want to make money with it? Because they want to keep these cartridges rare to keep the price as high as possible?
And I think we should not talk about the people who buy such highly priced items as if they were naive and stupid...
I mean seriously... we don't have to protect anyone as if they are little children...
If someone is willing to pay so much money they should at leas tot be able to inform themselves.
And if they still willing to do it, it's not our fault.



Regarding Event Pokémon being leaked I'm not so worried.
This is a different case than when it comes to 3rd Gen Mystery Gifts.
Because 3rd Gen Mystery Gifts were hidden and are still hidden in private collections.

The same thing can't be said about 3rd Gen Pokémon files.
They're openly traded for quite a while now by a very few and now it's a closed circle.
Most of these collections are old, before people hacked Pokémon was easily possible.
Pokémon files Trading became popular after the 4th Gen was released and Tools like Pokegen came.

But I must also say that 3rd Gen Trading is dead.
I know there isn't much more than the stuff that is already in the trading circle.
I was having a hard time to still find someone who is willing to trade and I had only a few rare 3rd Gen Event Pokémon to offer.
Without the help of some "Trading Veterans" I would have been lost and I want to thank them at this point for that.
They have welcomed me pretty much with open arms even I'm a researcher.
 

Many people thought it is a good idea to send their Events straight through the Pal Park to Gen 4.
But they didn't knew that with this they also erased some important information like these Trash Bytes.
At least the Japanese were more clever and already had Tools to backup their 3rd Gen Events.
But when it comes to Event Pokémon from the West it's really difficult to find any of those still in Gen 3.

BY THE WAY!
There's something I gotta tell you about these Japanese 3rd Gen Events and this might be very interesting for everyone here to know.
Did you guys know that there once was a platform Japanese platform just like Project Pokémon?
It was closed down early but what you can find in many collections came originally from there.
Most of the 3rd Gen Event Pokémon they traded originally came from an open public database. 

With that in mind I totally agree with @theSLAYER when he says 10 years have past.
It's about time and what we are trying to do here should have been done a long time ago.

So let's make PPorg become the greatest 3rd Gen Pokémon database of all time.

[Invader TAK]

2 minutes ago, ajxpk said:

I would also add to this that hacking a ROM like this isn't an easy task as some people might think.
I'm not saying that it's not possible but definitely not for a newbie.
I even would go as far to say if these cartridges on ebay are fakes... we can at least assume that the ROMs are exact copies.
Because they would first have to decompress the ROM to change something.
+ It is likely that there was some kind of checksum protections going on ect. ect.
I even learned that the same ROM we talking about was object of research before.
I wasn't told who did it and it seems to be a strict secret, but I know it was distributed for research before.
The only known person who was able to successful disassemble/hack the ROM was Bond697.


Wether these ebay cartridges are fake or not...
I think it's much easier to just copy the original ROM when you ask me.
Even if it really requires some special equipment. But I have even seen bootlegs of real games who were almost perfectly made.
So why it shouldn't be possible? And we don't know who did it exactly at the end.
But what I do know is that Nintendo of Europe has many divisions.
One of them is NBX who was/is responsible for Benelux Union. (Netherlands, Belgium & Luxembourg.)
And I learned that all the leaked stuff came frome there. Propably it was even someone who was responsible for the distribution.
No one knows what really happened than the people who did it.

Anyway I personally think it's kinda fishy that there are so many of it, which is why I still believe these could be fake cartridges.
It is just so weird that from other Distributions like Aura Mew only a very few were leaked.
Besides we know that 10 Anniversary was dumped. But other Distribution cartridges weren't.
There are too many open questions about it and if it was dumped just for research alone. 
I wished who did it dumped the ROM from Aura Mew or from the European Aurora Ticket as well. :D 
Why did no one dump these anyway? I would really love to check them all out.  

Anyway to the theory that if it's getting leaked there will be chaos on ebay and many fakes will pop up and fake cartridges from other distributions...
I really highly doubt that such a dramatic scene will happen if it happens. And I wonder who exactly will be protected if it doesn't get leaked.
It will also protect the very few people who want to keep these cartridges rare to keep the price high.
And I think we should not talk about the people who buy such highly priced items as if they were naive and stupid...
I mean seriously... we don't have to protect anyone as if they are little children...
If someone is willing to pay so much money they should at least be able to inform themselves.



Regarding the Event Pokémon itself I'm not so worried. 3rd Gen Trading is dead.
I was having a hard time to still find someone who is willing to trade and I had only a few rare 3rd Gen Event Pokémon to offer.
Without the help of some "Trading Veterans" I would have been lost and I want to thank them at this point for that.
They have welcomed me with open arms.
 
This is a different case than when it comes to 3rd Gen Wonder Cards.
Many people thought it is a good idea to send their Events straight through the Pal Park to Gen 4.
But they didn't knew that with this they also erased some important information like these Trash Bytes.
At least the Japanese were more clever and already had Tools to backup their 3rd Gen Events.
But when it comes to Event Pokémon from the West it's really difficult to find any of those still in Gen 3.

BY THE WAY!
There's something I gotta tell you about these Japanese 3rd Gen Events and this might be very interesting for everyone here to know.
Did you guys know that there once was a platform Japanese platform just like Project Pokémon?
It was closed down early but what you can find in many collections came originally from there.
Most of the 3rd Gen Event Pokémon they traded originally came from an open public database. 

With that in mind I totally agree with @theSLAYER when he says 10 years have past.
It's about time and what we are trying to do here should have been done a long time ago.

So let's make PPorg become the greatest 3rd Gen Pokémon database of all time.

The only Gen III distro I'd be interested in modifying is the European Aurora Ticket cart. The 10ANNIV ones would be neat to modify as well, provided the trash bytes and PID methods are the same for ALL 10th Anniversary Pokemon, no matter if they're from the US or the UK. Same for ROCKS Metang.

Regarding the whole trash bytes thing, that makes me glad I had the foresight to keep copies of my three 10 ANIV Celebi in Gen III (which are in the save I linked earlier). Emerald's cloning glitch would preserve those, right?

[Guest]

Yeah, you did a great job with that.
Regarding these Trash Bytes, I thought it's good to trade again and checked some of the Shops.
And this is bad, I noticed that a lot Pokémon aren't available in Gen 3.
At least the ROCKS Metang I will be able to get but those other 10th Anniversaries will be difficult.
When it comes to Party of the Decade there is only one of them I found but it seems to be NFT.

I will try my best to get this one...

[Guest]

I'm just waiting to see the chaos on ebay from all those people making fake Mystry Mew distro cartridges, now that the save files have been publicly posted and shared.

Way easier to do that than to make bootleg distro carts, and even that isn't going to happen (and honestly, you'd be naive to think that any current Mystry Mew cartridge showing up on ebay -didn't- have its save file dumped to be reused for a future save, if it wasn't already a fake.)

Bur I think we've already said everything there was to say. If at this point you still defend the point of view that it shouldn't go public when your only arguments are baseless worst case scenario assumptions that we can easily disprove, there is nothing more we can say that will change that.

 

Are there any save editors for Gen. III that let you view the trash bytes and that pose no risk of altering them, by the way? Every save editor I've used doesn't seem to display them and I'm not sure how they handle that.

I'm also interested in knowing what the transfer to Gen. 6 does to trash bytes, but I guess that's a question for another thread.

[Guest]

I think I remember that in A-Sav  you could see them.
If you worry about altering just don't save the file and back up your save file before you do something with it.