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Illithian

Same sex marriage?

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Yes, this is one of those debates that generally ends up in religion vs other.

Anyway this is the debate:

Same sex couples should be allowed to go through the legal process of marriage and receive the full legal rights of matrimony.

-vs-

Same sex couples should not be allowed to go through the legal process of marriage, and should not have access to the legal rights of matrimony.

Anyway, here's my stance. Rather violent actually, so be ready.

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What I really hate about this debate is when people bring up AIDS. That disease alone is probably the absolute largest gay stereotype there is. Firstly, straight 'normal' sex can bring about AIDS. Unsafe sex, no matter which kind, remains unsafe, whether or not its two men or a man and a woman.

Okay, onto my 'belief'. Personally, I think gay marriage should be allowed. I live in a part of the country where I basically never see a gay couple anywhere. Actually, I've only seen a few around here in my entire life. I live in Seattle, where its so totally frowned upon that theres actually sections of west Seattle where people avoid it purposely and where real estate sells for rock bottom prices. I know I shouldn't make an opinion because I barely ever see gay couples, but I don't think its disgusting.

Think about what you feel like when you pass a sexy woman. No really, think about that. Sometimes you wont feel anything, because your distracted for some other reason, but you know what I mean. And especially realize that you notice that that woman is attractive. Now think for a minute. What would it be like if every time you saw an attractive male, you felt and thought the exact same thing. Wouldn't it be weird? I bet most of you can't actually imagine what that would be like. And many don't want to. But how unfair would it be if you were forced to? If you didn't have a choice, even when you, above all, didn't want to.

You think gay people choose to be gay? Why. Please, tell me what reasoning you have for someone choosing to be gay. You can probably come up with some kind of an argument related to being good friends with girls, or something related to that, but really, there ARE no perks. For your entire life, as soon as someone finds out your gay, you'll be avoided. Put down. Ignored. Why would you choose that life?

So, assuming its not a choice, where does your beloved Christianity come in? If everything has a reason, then there must be some reason as to why gay people exist. If they are born that way, then isn't it the fault of their creator? I understand that sometimes gay people grow up to be gay because they didn't play sports, so they didn't mingle as much with guys and spent more time with girls (which, ironically, can be a cause of people being gay once through puberty). Is that the fault of the kid? No, its not, because 6 year olds are often stubborn and refuse to play sports for no reason at all.

Also. For those of you who are married. Imagine what it would be like if you couldn't have joint assets with your wife, couldn't share any of the legal privileges of being married, couldn't adopt, didn't have visitation rights, or anything really. Is that how gay couples feel? Is that right? Politically correct is bullshit, I don't care about that. It comes down to morals. The US was built on the ideal that all men are created equal. The right to life, liberty, and property. Are gay people 'people'? Do they have those rights? No. Is that right? Is that moral?

Honestly, I can't understand people who are homophobic. It just seems ignorant. I totally understand if you find gay couples kissing in the street disgusting, but should you really take away their rights because of it? How can you use Christianity as an excuse for it when it calls for treating all people of all races equally? The church is as corrupt as the government is, bleeding with money. And what about gay people who commit suicide because of all the social hate? How can you LIVE with yourself if you know that you contributed to the reason they died?

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Discuss, and don't mind my violence against religion, I posted this first on another forum and I was slightly irritated with the previous poster's incomprehensible point of view.

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I pretty much agree with you here.

I'm for it, and I have no reason to be against it.

Unfortunately, logic-based arguments don't tend to work on the religiously-minded folks.

As much as I don't like Keith Olberman, he made a great point back when the California voters banned gay marriage. I'll see if I can find it.

Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnHyy8gkNEE

I think he sums it up pretty well.

On a side note, I find it pretty odd that you don't see many gay couples in Seattle...

Don't get to Capitol Hill too often?

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What I really hate about this debate is when people bring up AIDS. That disease alone is probably the absolute largest gay stereotype there is. Firstly, straight 'normal' sex can bring about AIDS. Unsafe sex, no matter which kind, remains unsafe, whether or not its two men or a man and a woman.

But it's going to happen more between two men.

Okay, onto my 'belief'. Personally, I think gay marriage should be allowed. I live in a part of the country where I basically never see a gay couple anywhere. Actually, I've only seen a few around here in my entire life. I live in Seattle, where its so totally frowned upon that theres actually sections of west Seattle where people avoid it purposely and where real estate sells for rock bottom prices. I know I shouldn't make an opinion because I barely ever see gay couples, but I don't think its disgusting.

It's not about whether it's disgusting. It's about whether it's perverted.

Think about what you feel like when you pass a sexy woman. No really, think about that. Sometimes you wont feel anything, because your distracted for some other reason, but you know what I mean. And especially realize that you notice that that woman is attractive. Now think for a minute. What would it be like if every time you saw an attractive male, you felt and thought the exact same thing. Wouldn't it be weird? I bet most of you can't actually imagine what that would be like. And many don't want to. But how unfair would it be if you were forced to? If you didn't have a choice, even when you, above all, didn't want to.

But when I pass a "sexy" or "attractive" woman, I either don't feel anything or ignore anything I feel. I choose not to give in to the impulse because it would be wrong.

You think gay people choose to be gay? Why. Please, tell me what reasoning you have for someone choosing to be gay. You can probably come up with some kind of an argument related to being good friends with girls, or something related to that, but really, there ARE no perks. For your entire life, as soon as someone finds out your gay, you'll be avoided. Put down. Ignored. Why would you choose that life?

While they may be born with that disposition, they can most certainly choose not to be.

So, assuming its not a choice, where does your beloved Christianity come in? If everything has a reason, then there must be some reason as to why gay people exist. If they are born that way, then isn't it the fault of their creator? I understand that sometimes gay people grow up to be gay because they didn't play sports, so they didn't mingle as much with guys and spent more time with girls (which, ironically, can be a cause of people being gay once through puberty). Is that the fault of the kid? No, its not, because 6 year olds are often stubborn and refuse to play sports for no reason at all.

A creature sinning is not the fault of its creator.

Also. For those of you who are married. Imagine what it would be like if you couldn't have joint assets with your wife, couldn't share any of the legal privileges of being married, couldn't adopt, didn't have visitation rights, or anything really. Is that how gay couples feel? Is that right? Politically correct is bullshit, I don't care about that. It comes down to morals. The US was built on the ideal that all men are created equal. The right to life, liberty, and property. Are gay people 'people'? Do they have those rights? No. Is that right? Is that moral?

Marriage was, is, and always will be an institution of the church and of God. You want legal rights? Fine. Stay out of marriage and get a civil union.

Honestly, I can't understand people who are homophobic. It just seems ignorant. I totally understand if you find gay couples kissing in the street disgusting, but should you really take away their rights because of it? How can you use Christianity as an excuse for it when it calls for treating all people of all races equally? The church is as corrupt as the government is, bleeding with money. And what about gay people who commit suicide because of all the social hate? How can you LIVE with yourself if you know that you contributed to the reason they died?

1. What rights have we taken away?

2. Gay people are not of another race.

3. The gay people are the ones committting suicide; they and they alone are responsible for their actions.

On a slightly unrelated note, congratulations on bringing to the table another debate that is destined to cause even more tension between forum members.

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I do not believe gays have a right to be married. I find homosexuality to be a disease in which a person was born with. Doctors have already proven that homosexuals don't have a choice in their sexuality, which is why people think they should be allowed to get married. I think that instead of allowing them marriage, we find them a cure. It's just disgusting, and I believe a marriage should be between a man and a woman. I find it disgusting, and I think they need help.

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Marriage was, is, and always will be an institution of the church and of God. You want legal rights? Fine. Stay out of marriage and get a civil union.

Marriage was around before the Catholic Church. Whether or not their marriage is recognized by the Church is the Church's opinion, but the Church should not be able to decide if it recognized by law and the state. It people want to "sin", as you think it is, let them exercise their free will, it is God's gift to us.

It's more like "Fine. Keep your beliefs and stay out of the laws.", no offense.

Telling gays to get a civil union is like telling a person of colour to go to a Black Only water fountain. Still discrimination.

Laws should not be designed around a religion. How would the people following other religions feel? What if it was illegal to eat pork or beef? Wouldn't that be silly when their religions have absolutely nothing to do with you?

How do you believe that a person could change their sexual orientation? Could you force yourself into being gay? Can you choose your favourite colours or favourite food?

I know I can't force myself to like anything I don't like... And I'd find it horrible to be forced stuck in a relationship where I feel no feelings or attraction for the person. For both the other person and myself.

The whole cure for gay thing is... Well, it sounds at least a little better, but... I still don't think that's right. If you want to make a "cure" available to them, then do it, but I don't think you should force them to do anything. It's really just your opinion on the matter, and them being married isn't going to affect your life. With or without the ability to marry, there's still going to be gays.

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I agree with you, Illithian, although I'm bringing up some of my own points.

First off, I'm going to come out and say it. I'm bisexual. Now, I am more straight than I am lesbian, but if I see a beautiful woman crossing the street, I acknowledge that she is very attractive. Would I automatically want to sleep with her? No. It's NOT like that. It hardly ever is. We, as in homosexuals, are not the sexual, perverted deviants you seem to think we are. We do not sleep around as much as you think we do. In fact, we probably sleep around less than heterosexual couples. It's about love, not sex. You know, LOVE, the thing your teacher, Christ, taught. I love how, nowhere in the Bible, Christ mentions homosexuality as a sin. If it were so important, wouldn't he mention it?

Also, what does it do to you if a man and man, or woman and woman get married? Yeah, nothing. They aren't forcing you to live like they do, rather, they'd LIKE it if you ignored them. I know a lesbian couple in my town. They are the nicest people I've ever known, and they are in more love than I've ever seen between two creatures. Their love has nothing to do with you, since they respect others, and do not show PDA. They keep it in private. What impact does it have on your psyche? Are you really so... Pathetic, that you let something like love scar you for life? I certainly hope not.

Well, I guess since you can bring in religion, so can I. The Goddess has specifically stated that, "All acts of love and pleasure" are Her rituals. Where has She said this? In our hearts. Our minds. Our soul. I do not need a book to tell me what is right and wrong. Love is love. Regardless of gender, if it brings pleasure, why is it a sin? I know that, in my heart, the Goddess (and God, but my Goddess and I are closer, she's the mother I wish I had) sanctions all love. If both parties consent, and it brings them pleasure, there is nothing "sinful" about it, in fact, it is absolutely beautiful! The beauty of love, and sex, is that it does nothing but bring pleasure! STDs are the result of carelessness and stupidity, not sex in itself.

To Her, it does not matter whether you have (I'm going to assume we're all mature enough here to handle sexual terminology) a penis or vagina, but rather, whether or not you have LOVE.

Marriage? If your priests wish not to perform it for same-sex couples, that is their choice. But, if a priest (or priestess!) wishes to, why stop them? It was never a Christian concept. There was marriage long before the Catholic church.

Floot, you sadden me. You really do. There is NO CURE. It isn't a disease. To think so is disgusting.

I recommend the movie Religulous. I am not atheist, but that movie brought up so many good points, it's incredible.

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All right people. I could see this debate going in a... unruly direction. If it ever gets out of hand, I will close this thread and infract the offenders. I've seen such topics discussed in other forums before... so every time I stated my opinion, all I would get from the other members were flaming and hate. I hope this doesn't end the same way.

Personally, I do not think same-sex marriage should be legalized.

First off, let us look at the definition of marriage:

marriage- n. the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc.

© Random House Dictionary (2009)

Man + man? Woman + woman? No... it's man + woman. There's a reason why there's a sex division... and I see that homosexuality is a choice made by an individual.

It's not a question about disgusting, it's more a question about what's right or wrong. There is a right and wrong to everything, and homosexuality isn't one of those "subjective" areas at all.

Does that mean I hate sodomites? Absolutely not. I hate the notion of sodomy itself, but I do not harbor any hate against them.

I'll post more when I feel like it, but now you know my position.

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Marriage is only defined as that because of the lack of same sex marriage being legal in countries other than Canada and Spain (are there any others? Never checked).

The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife, and in some jurisdictions, between two persons of the same sex, usually entailing legal obligations of each person to the other.

A similar union of more than two people; a polygamous marriage.

A union between persons that is recognized by custom or religious tradition as a marriage.

A common-law marriage.

The state or relationship of two adults who are married: Their marriage has been a happy one.

A wedding.

A close union: "the most successful marriage of beauty and blood in mainstream comics" (Lloyd Rose).

Games The combination of the king and queen of the same suit, as in pinochle.

[Middle English mariage, from Old French, from marier, to marry; see marry1.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

A marriage is simply a union between two people [or more, but let's keep this simple] with the promise to live the rest of their lives together and be faithful to their personal beliefs on marriage...

Just because a few dictionaries say just one man and one woman doesn't mean that we should use that to define our laws. We're debating on whether same sex marriage should be legal, not if it's a correct term to use according to dictionaries.

I don't see homosexuality as a choice anymore than it is a choice to be heterosexual, bisexual, omni/pansexual, or polyamorous [Not polygamous, there's a difference. It's definitely a choice to be polygamous. Polyamorous just means being able to love more than one person at the same time.]. I don't hear of people just waking up one day and deciding to change their sexuality.

You claim homosexuality is wrong. Now we have to ask what are your reasonings on it being wrong? Just because a dictionary says it? Is it your religion? (When we know religions shouldn't affect laws in the first place, as I previously explained.)

What do sodomites have to do with anything? Straight people can have anal sex, and so can lesbians.

It's good you are living up to "love the sinner and hate the sin" though.

Edit: I also have to question why you're taking marriage away from the people you apparently don't hate.

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Homosexuality, just like Heterosexality, is a choice. Straight people and gay people choose to love who they love, With the difference being that straight people aren't choosing perversion.

That doesn't mean that external or internal factors don't affect the choice. It means that in the end, when all is said and done, it is still their choice.

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Choose who we love? How do we do that? I thought love was an emotion that is slowly built up, not one that you attach to any person you happen to want to love or think is hot.

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Love itself is a choice. If you think love is only an emotion, then you are misled. Don't confuse love with lust. You choose to love someone... and love brings on an unconditional relationship between the two.

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I agree with you, Illithian, although I'm bringing up some of my own points.

First off, I'm going to come out and say it. I'm bisexual. Now, I am more straight than I am lesbian, but if I see a beautiful woman crossing the street, I acknowledge that she is very attractive. Would I automatically want to sleep with her? No. It's NOT like that. It hardly ever is. We, as in homosexuals, are not the sexual, perverted deviants you seem to think we are. We do not sleep around as much as you think we do. In fact, we probably sleep around less than heterosexual couples. It's about love, not sex. You know, LOVE, the thing your teacher, Christ, taught. I love how, nowhere in the Bible, Christ mentions homosexuality as a sin. If it were so important, wouldn't he mention it?

Also, what does it do to you if a man and man, or woman and woman get married? Yeah, nothing. They aren't forcing you to live like they do, rather, they'd LIKE it if you ignored them. I know a lesbian couple in my town. They are the nicest people I've ever known, and they are in more love than I've ever seen between two creatures. Their love has nothing to do with you, since they respect others, and do not show PDA. They keep it in private. What impact does it have on your psyche? Are you really so... Pathetic, that you let something like love scar you for life? I certainly hope not.

Well, I guess since you can bring in religion, so can I. The Goddess has specifically stated that, "All acts of love and pleasure" are Her rituals. Where has She said this? In our hearts. Our minds. Our soul. I do not need a book to tell me what is right and wrong. Love is love. Regardless of gender, if it brings pleasure, why is it a sin? I know that, in my heart, the Goddess (and God, but my Goddess and I are closer, she's the mother I wish I had) sanctions all love. If both parties consent, and it brings them pleasure, there is nothing "sinful" about it, in fact, it is absolutely beautiful! The beauty of love, and sex, is that it does nothing but bring pleasure! STDs are the result of carelessness and stupidity, not sex in itself.

To Her, it does not matter whether you have (I'm going to assume we're all mature enough here to handle sexual terminology) a penis or vagina, but rather, whether or not you have LOVE.

Marriage? If your priests wish not to perform it for same-sex couples, that is their choice. But, if a priest (or priestess!) wishes to, why stop them? It was never a Christian concept. There was marriage long before the Catholic church.

Floot, you sadden me. You really do. There is NO CURE. It isn't a disease. To think so is disgusting.

I recommend the movie Religulous. I am not atheist, but that movie brought up so many good points, it's incredible.

It's been proven to be a disease. It's abnormal, and I do not approve of it. Homosexuality is something I don't tolerate, and I hope they do not legalize gay marriage anywhere else in the world. I'm sorry, but this is how I feel.

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I am absolutely sure I am not confusing love with lust. Those are two different emotions. You don't choose to be in love with a person, which is why there is the phrase/verb "to fall in love". You cannot force love... I'm not sure why you say "only an emotion" when that is what love is. It's a strong feeling, but it's still an emotion. If anything, saying that you can choose who you love makes it sound... less epic of a thing to experience.

Lust is...more physical.

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Uhm, wraith, I think you're the one confusing love and lust.

You cannot choose who you love. Not in the least. You can choose to ignore or respond to those feelings, but you cannot choose who you feel for.

I fell in love with my best friend. Did I choose to love him? No. Did I even want to love him? No. That doesn't change the fact that I did, and still do. A friend of mine fell in love with a guy of a different race. I mean, head over heels in love. I live in the south. Down here, interracial relationships are spit upon. She despised herself for loving him, but no matter what she could do, she still loved him more than anything.

Love IS an emotion. What else could it be? It's the strongest of positive emotions. I think you are the one that is misled.

Love... Is beautiful. It leaves you broken, breathless, scared, and yet, wanting more. It's what we live for. If you ask anyone, what they really want, something immaterial and invaluable, they will say "love". Love is the thing that keeps us living, keeps us energetic, and keeps us on our toes. Why? Because it's unpredictable. We cannot anticipate who we love. We cannot change those feelings afterwords. That is the beauty of love! It's an emotion, yet, it can be something more, though all it ever really is, is an emotion. The varying degrees of those feelings are how we define love, and what it really is. At it's best, it is Nirvana. Something so wonderful, no words, be them written or spoken, can ever define or change it. At it's worst, it destroys us. But, the thing is, even if it hurts us, we desire that hurt. The pain, the destruction... It makes us feel complete. Even if it hurts, you never want to feel anything else.

Love does sometimes lead to lust, as does lust lead to love, but they are two different emotions. Two different worlds. Lust is pleasure, physical pleasure. Love is... Unconditional. It requires nothing physical. It is Nirvana. Peace. Joy. Immeasurable. Incomprehensible. An emotional high.

Our emotions define us. We cannot, under any circumstance, define our emotions.

Homosexuality is not about lust, though, like heterosexuality, it can be. It is about love. Finding someone, no matter what gender, that lets us reach Nirvana. True happiness. Finding someone that makes life worth living for. As much as you'd like to deny it, it's true. Repressing love only leads to pain, the pain nobody wants to feel. The pain that I wish you could feel for five minutes. You'd explode.

I'm for love. You're against it. That's how it will always be. Love versus religion. Trust, happiness, and peace, versus a legion of people following a man who taught love, and yet they refuse to practice it.

/sigh... People these days. >_<

EDIT: To clarify, I wasn't talking about any one person. Just the general populous against gay marriage... Like, Fred Phelps and that whole "God Hates Fags" deal. Goddess... If I ever got my hands around his neck... He'd be WISHING he were in hell.

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It's been proven to be a disease.

By whom (ie back up your statement with a source)?

It's abnormal,

Okay...

and I do not approve of it. Homosexuality is something I don't tolerate,

"I don't like it" should never be used concerning legal matters especially when it concerns denying a group of people equal rights.

I'm going to go out there and say this:

Gay marriage is a rights issue. Within the confines of a civil marriage, married couples automatically get several hundred benefits of marriage, including tax benefits, power of attorney, and more (depending on where you live). While some areas of the US and the world have made it possible to obtain some or all of these benefits, it is a complete hassle to do so when everyone else autoatically get these upon a civil marriage.

Then there are areas who don't grant these benefits to non-married couples.

And this whole legal system of marriage is based around two consenting adults. None of this slippery slope BS. Not incest (already banned because of how harmful it can be to the couple and children), not animal and human, not 3 women and one man, not one adult and one child, two consenting adults.

**now i don't see why consenting adults can't enter into a polygamous marriage, but they shouldn't get any legal benefits from it, but that won't happen**

Now, the often used justification is that being gay is a choice. (for some reason, the opposite, being straight, isn't seen as a choice, but I digress).

Let's just assume that it's true.

So what?

It still doesn't invalidate that homosexuals deserve all the freedoms and protection under the law that everyone else can get. Tax breaks, equal employment (IE the right to not be fired/not hired just because of one's sexual orientation), yknow all that stuff.

You know what else is protected under the law? Something that employees can't discriminate against, something that pretty much can't be used against you at all?

Religion, which is 100% a choice.

The ultimate solution to all of this is to get the government out of marriage. The state and local government have no business licensing religions to do legal marriages.

If a religion wants to marry whatever, go for it. Or if they want to deny someone marriage, their choice. But it shouldn't be recognized by the state in either case. A civil marriage should be open to every consenting adult under the law. And anyone who wants to supplement that with a religious ceremony is welcome to do so.

Also:

On a slightly unrelated note, congratulations on bringing to the table another debate that is destined to cause even more tension between forum members.

If you can't handle a debate, you're welcome to not read the thread and/or post a reply. If you see anyone acting out of hand, report them or PM me with a direct link to the post.

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You cannot choose who you love. Not in the least. You can choose to ignore or respond to those feelings, but you cannot choose who you feel for.

And people who are inclined to be gay or attracted to the same sex need to practice their ability to ignore those feelings, just as a straight, married man needs to ignore feelings he might develop for a woman who is not his wife.

I'm for love. You're against it...Like, Fred Phelps and that whole "God Hates Fags" deal. Goddess... If I ever got my hands around his neck... He'd be WISHING he were in hell.

Saying you'd like to wring someone's neck does not give the impression of being for love.

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marriage- n. the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc.

© Random House Dictionary (2009)

That is the BEST argument so far. It uses a solid, non-flexible definition, has a source to back it up, and it agrees with my opinion (the thing I found best of it :kikkoman:).

Also, remember how magnents work: opposites attract. + and + cannot go together, nor can - and -. It dosen't matter which gender is + or -, but that they are opposites.

Plus the only way to be fruitful in this case is to ask the Doctor to take you to a planet in which they have a machine that takes a tissue sample from you, and you become both biological mother AND father. It works on both humans, AND timelords! Perfectly safe, too!

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And people who are inclined to be gay or attracted to the same sex need to practice their ability to ignore those feelings, just as a straight, married man needs to ignore feelings he might develop for a woman who is not his wife.

Except that having homosexual feelings isn't on the same level as cheating, and that homosexuals will not obtain any feelings for the opposite gender, thus causing them to be alone for the rest of their lives if they DO ignore those feelings, or enter into a fake straight relationship without any true meaning.

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I don't know much about laws and such, but I heard it crosses one of the US' Admendants if it's passed. O.o

There's no amendment, or mention of marriage, at all in the US Constitution or the Amendments.

It coukd be argued that passage of homosexual marriage in one state would force other states to recognize it because of the Equal Protection Clause in the 14th amendment. At the time, it was designed to prevent legal discrimination. If a man owns property in one state and brings it elsewhere, that other state can't take it away. Or more sensibly, I can't flee my state if a warrant is out for me, go somewhere else and get out without consequence. It can be argued that it also applies to marriages. Many types of civil and legal documents cross state lines, so I don't see why a marraige certificate would become null and void either.

Homosexuality is just another one of satan's plans to eliminate the human race. That's all I have to say...

Congrats on expanding your point. Even though I don't agree with you I totally get where you're coming from and understand your point of view *eye roll smiley here*

And people who are inclined to be gay or attracted to the same sex need to practice their ability to ignore those feelings, just as a straight, married man needs to ignore feelings he might develop for a woman who is not his wife.

Why should individuals have to change who they are to please some other group of people? Because they said so?

Remember a true democracy is set up so that it's ruled by the majority but the minority still has rights. Even if people are totally against homosexuals, that shouldn't change anything that they still have (Well, should) the same legal rights and benefits everyone else enjoys.

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America is not a democracy.

Except that having homosexual feelings isn't on the same level as cheating

How is it not on the same level as cheating?

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America is not a democracy.

It's not a Direct/Pure Democracy. But it is a Democratic-Republic. Powered by the people, majority rules, elected representatives, but the minority still has rights. You can't take away someone's rights just because a group of people don't like them.

Regardless it doesn't invalidate anything I said.

How is it not on the same level as cheating?

Cheating is an issue within an already established relationship. Forcing people to change who they are is a completely different situation and you know that. It's the equivalent of if we made a list of all the "wrong" religions and forced all of those people to the "right" religion.

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Remember a true democracy is set up so that it's ruled by the majority but the minority still has rights. Even if people are totally against homosexuals, that shouldn't change anything that they still have (Well, should) the same legal rights and benefits everyone else enjoys.

Agreed.

By the way... keep in mind the title of this thread. Same sex marriage, not whether or not homosexuality is okay by you.

Here's something for thought:

Legalizing same sex marriage would actually decrease the number of sexual partners a gay person has, thereby significantly limiting their probability of increasing the spread of AIDs through the homosexual community (through passing it on if they have it, or getting it from someone else).

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