Standard Rules (as of April 15 from Smogon.com)+General Smogon discussion

[Destati]

Lets take some examples from this site already

http://www.projectpokemon.org/forums/showthread.php?t=846

Doc, like every other person, expected a regular fight abiding to the Standard rules. Kunaidude comes along and accepts his challenge. The battle is cut short as soon as Kunaidude sends out Groudon, Garchomp and Darkrai. While Kunaidude is yelling about something in broken English, I step in to teach them both about standard battling. Now they are both better. In the end, Doc wears out because no one is abiding to the rules. Everyone is using Pokemon that decimate his team and overcentralize the metagame.

Then its followed by Greencat saying something against what I was trying to teach.

http://www.projectpokemon.org/forums/showthread.php?t=630

Another battle thread, made by GREENCAT of all people. Despite not knowing that Rotom Forms can't be used online, it looks like a regular battle. By "OU" people immediately think of Smogon's OU list. Also, instead of saying all that stuff though, one could easily say "Standard Rules."

http://www.projectpokemon.org/forums/showthread.php?t=241

Simple battle thread. He said Ubers were permitted, so they used Ubers in their fights. Typical Smogon rules.

Whenever someone says "Standard Rules," they always mean as SCV calls it, "Smogon's Rules"

[Varna]

Because they are right. They created a balanced gameplay everyone can enjoy. There's no reason not to like Smogon (unless one of your favorite Pokemon is banned of course)

Every other forum follows Smogon. Every forum but us. If you want to have a free-for-all battle with no strings attached, go do it. Problem is, you're not going to get a lot of takers. You'll essentially be constrained to these forums because no one else will want to face a pokemon like Garchomp.

Its wrong because thats not how everyone else wants to play and they have no basis for their assumptions. Lets take Manaphy for example. Greencat still refuses to take Manaphy off of the OU list. Why? Who knows. I on the other hand, can provide you with detailed reasons why Manaphy is Uber and breaks the Metagame.

And again, I don't know what specifically annoys people about Smogon. I still feel like people here hate Smogon solely because they feel like they need to compete with something.

Why do you feel that people here hate Smogon? Well, I can't speak for everyone, but listen to yourself talk for a little while and you'll understand.

This "thousand man effort" thing you have in your head is far from the truth, honestly. A few contributors mull over the numbers that their shoddy servers spit out, and make decisions based off that. It isn't everyone "taking a vote" so to speak. =p

Oh, and as for "Every other forum" following Smogon... that's funny, I go to quite a few places that don't. :B

[Destati]

I really don't agree with some of Smogon's rules though... and they have been trying to get rid of the BL tier for ages... but I don't know... why would they drop everything to the UU tier and then make a NU filled with some stuff that could destroy that tier (looks at Articuno and Marowak and Tauros)? Or is it all based on usage?

In the end, UU play is just composed of the Pokemon not strong enough for OU play.

It is based off of usage, but its also not. Heatran is used a lot. Why? Because he's good. However, someone like Milotic isn't used a lot. Why? Not because Milotic isn't good, its because thanks to the Hypnosis nerf she's been outclassed by the other Bulky Waters.

You can always use Milotic in OU if you want. RestTalk still works nicely and is still an unexpected approach. Every tier will have those "always used" Pokemon. OU has Scizor, Latias, Heatran and others. UU has Marrowak, Articuno and others as well. But like the OU threats, they can also be counterd. Try Kabutops on for size. That thing should decimate Articuno.

---------- Post added at 05:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 PM ----------

This "thousand man effort" thing you have in your head is far from the truth, honestly. A few contributors mull over the numbers that their shoddy servers spit out, and make decisions based off that. It isn't everyone "taking a vote" so to speak. =p

The highest ranking people on suspect ladders get to vote on large tests such as Latias, Garchomp and Skymin. They've proven that they're the best at battling and that they know whether or not a certain Pokemon is too difficult to handle.

Frankly, I can't expect this forum to generate a discussion like this

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36558

But I can expect this forum to push it aside because there's too much stuff to read.

Oh, and as for "Every other forum" following Smogon... that's funny, I go to quite a few places that don't. :B

Name them and I'll judge their credibility in the Pokemon community.

[Greencat]

Woah, a lot of disscusion. Mhh, I can't post a large post at the moment since I'm using my phone, but the site is fairly new and needs more time before creating its own rules, standards and more.

[Varna]

The highest ranking people on suspect ladders get to vote on large tests such as Latias, Garchomp and Skymin. They've proven that they're the best at battling and that they know whether or not a certain Pokemon is too difficult to handle.

Frankly, I can't expect this forum to generate a discussion like this

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36558

But I can expect this forum to push it aside because there's too much stuff to read.

Name them and I'll judge their credibility in the Pokemon community.

The highest ranking people are not always the most well versed.

You keep bitching about how "you can't expect this forum to live up to Smogon", so what's keeping you here, hm? Why don't you run along quietly now and complain to your buddies over yonder that people on a different forum don't agree with your Bible?

And I won't even humor myself by giving out my other forum locales. I already know you'd just brush them off anyways, and you seem to think that there is ONE POKEMON COMMUNITY TO RULE THEM ALL, so there isn't any point.

[damio]

Name them and I'll judge their credibility in the Pokemon community.

Since when are you the person that decides whether or not a website is a good community?

You say that smogon has more members than us, yet you don't compare how long each has been up, or how many of those members joined and left.

EDIT: I just had a look, and after 1 month (longer than this site has been up) it only had 169 members.

Also, almost half of its current members have made 5 or less posts.

[randomspot555]

While I don't agree with Destati completely, he does have a point. Making our own tier list is one thing. Among different communities can result in different forms of centralization. In Japan, Cresselia is seen in the same light as Scizor, Heatran, or Tyranitar is seen here. The Wi-Fi environment will have a much less focus on legendary one-off Pokemon, and Celebi and Jirachi and event exclusive, because they're harder to obtain legit versions of that also are competitively viable.

But making new clauses (or, by the looks of the posts of many of the admins) or advocating fewer or no clauses isn't something I'd look for in a battling community. As Destati pointed out, Smogon is the only site out there (in English anyway) to focus exclusively on making a competitive environment out of Pokemon. And they've done it with the closest form of "evidene" you can get, with battle statistics being tracked on Shoddy and making sure it simulates the battle in-game as much as possible.

While communities should be free to do whatever they want in regards to their own battling communities, most of them that do usually are just theory-monning. Which really isn't a great way to justify rules, tiers, etc...

Just because this site strives to make it's own doesn't mean what other sites have done should be dismissed. A good idea is a good idea, regardless of where it came from.

[Greencat]

I have skimmed through this. Destati, the site is new. It hasn't been a month, and you have to remember Smogon has been up for more than 3 years. So it should have thousands of members. We are actually doing VERY well with the amount of people joining this month.

In case you don't know, it took about 7 Months for Smogon to get at least a thousand members! It's only been about 3 weeks here and we are already at almost a 1000. Also, Smogon only had about 170 members the first month.

[wraith89]

In the end, UU play is just composed of the Pokemon not strong enough for OU play.

It is based off of usage, but its also not. Heatran is used a lot. Why? Because he's good. However, someone like Milotic isn't used a lot. Why? Not because Milotic isn't good, its because thanks to the Hypnosis nerf she's been outclassed by the other Bulky Waters.

You can always use Milotic in OU if you want. RestTalk still works nicely and is still an unexpected approach. Every tier will have those "always used" Pokemon. OU has Scizor, Latias, Heatran and others. UU has Marrowak, Articuno and others as well. But like the OU threats, they can also be counterd. Try Kabutops on for size. That thing should decimate Articuno.

Yeah, I see that with the usage and good correlation thing. I always thought Milotic is OU... even if the Hypnosis accuracy dropped. For one thing, Milotic has an instant recovery move (so does Slowbro, but being part Psychic somewhat hurts). Marvel Scale is a good trait too and base 100 special attack and 125 special defense isn't too bad either. I don't see why she's UU... she's served as a reliable counter to some dragons and others. Yes, I realize Choice Banded attacks can 2HKO Milotic and Sandstream weakens her Surf on Tyranitar, but still... something like Milotic being in UU makes no sense to me. Hypnosis accuracy drop really affected frail things like Yanmega and Gengar more. Milotic can still take some hits and do some good damage, even without Hypnosis. This thing, UU? No way. Just give me Blastoise and Quagsire any day for Bulky Water needs in UU. Milotic just tears that tier apart.

And I wouldn't stay on a rock type with Articuno anyways (unless I mispredict and switch in something that's Rock resistant and Kabutops uses Waterfall >_<). It's all about teamplay, not a single thing that can take down everyone. Articuno has plenty in her arsenal to support the team, like Reflect and Heal Bell (the latter from , but they give Zapdos BATON PASS?!). And again, I blame Gamefreak for favoring Zapdos and looking down on Articuno. That has been blatant ever since Generation I.

I wouldn't conform this community to Smogon. Smogon has their tier list, this place has its own... I do agree with some of their rules though like Sleep Clause, I'll give you that. But this place shouldn't be a copycat of another site.

[SCV]

SCV, ever heard the quote "Jack of all trades, Master of none"? Well, thats what this site will turn into if we follow your mentality. Smogon litterally has an army of people to get things done. As I said, their statistics are based off of hundreds of thousands of battles. We don't even have 1000 members yet. they have 28k, and thats not including those who just play Shoddy and don't have forum accounts.

Its not a one-man job to make a tier list. Its a thousand-man effort.

We are not trying to instantly have that many members or come up with something as developed as smogon. It will take time. I also think that one site can be the "master" of all trades, which is part of the reason I am here. People should not have to go to 4 different pokemon sites. However, there are very few people that can pull it off. I know we can.

Smogon is not "THE" Pokemon community, but its apart of it. They use Serebii for Pokedex information, Bulbapedia for Event and non-mechanic information and Metalkid/Psypokes for calculator knowledge. At the same time, those respective sites use each other for information as well. Gamefaqs gets their knowledge from everywhere. Thats the Pokemon community. We're the ones that are selfish and attempting to create our own community. There's already one thats been set up for years and years. I really don't see the point in creating one that competes with it.

Yes we are trying to create a community where everyone can come, rather than specializing.

Marrilland tried creating its own community. Its known to every non-Marriland user as a shithole. Libelldra tried a similar thing. It was expected to compete with Smogon. Now the forums get a total of three posts per day. The only good thing they have on that site is the team builder that counts your team's weaknesses and resistances. I really don't want Project Pokemon to be known for one thing, and thats a site where you can download events from. Do you?

So what exactly makes you think we will fail? Trust me it will take some time but we will not fail. What are the qualifications of those people that would mean that they would succeed? and actually I would wish that people did not see this site as the place to download events or to download pokesav. You have shown that you do not understand the purpose of Project Pokemon when you said that this place is devoted to hacking of pokemon games and that's not it.

[Doc]

i see the poster child avoids the NFE list, whats up with that, ok hes still a NU but pikachu sucks and hes not even fully evolved.

[wraith89]

i see the poster child avoids the NFE list, whats up with that, ok hes still a NU but pikachu sucks and hes not even fully evolved.

Some NFEs are allowed in tier lists because they play differently. The reason why Pikachu is in NU is because it can carry Light Ball, thus dealing more damage than Raichu. It's like a NU Deoxys-A. (Pikachu = my least favorite Pokemon... but that's besides the point).

We also have Trapinch for Arena Trap, Clamperl for DeepSeaTooth doing the same exact thing as Pikachu with Light Ball (except only for special attack), Scyther for being the faster but weaker version of Scizor (both have same BSTs but aligned in different areas and different typing), Vigoroth for playing differently from Slaking (but he's still worse than Zangoose) and the awesome Porygon2 for being a Salamence/Gyarados deterrent (Porygon-Z lacks the defenses and the Trace ability).

Now I don't know if they'll ever do OU-lite, such as allowing Haunter, Kadabra, Snover, Hippopotas and Chansey in UU or something. Somehow, I doubt it.

[SCV]

Also for the record I have nothing against smogon. I think they have many talented and intelligent members. I have never denied any of their members help when they PM me in the forums or IRC. Soon I will start some research and I will probably read one of their threads a the base and they will receive proper credit for writing that, but in the end the results will all be obtained directly from the game.

That said, I just don't think that we are obligated to follow their rules. Is that a crime? Also I just remembered that Serebii doesn't follow smogon either. Just curious as to your opinions on that.

[Doc]

yeah the others make sense but ive always hated pikachu and i still think hes useless even with the light ball and event pikachu movesets, this is just a long running hatred i have for that useless... gerbil... rat... mouse... whatever.

Edited April 25, 2009 by Doc
typo

[wraith89]

yeah the others make sense but ive always hated pikachu and i still think hes useless even with the light ball and event pikachu movesets, this is just a long running hatred i have for that useless... gerbil... rat... whatever.

Hating Pikachu is one thing (I hate it too... and I especially don't like a LOT but not all of electric Pokemon but I do like Raichu)... but you can't deny that he can be powerful with that Light Ball and 90 speed. Somewhat like people hating Blissey (I don't btw). They try to pretend there are better options for walling special attacks, but no one does the job better than Blissey.

Speaking of events... check out this novelty Pikachu event.

Also for the record I have nothing against smogon. I think they have many talented and intelligent members. I have never denied any of their members help when they PM me in the forums or IRC. Soon I will start some research and I will probably read one of their threads a the base and they will receive proper credit for writing that, but in the end the results will all be obtained directly from the game.

That said, I just don't think that we are obligated to follow their rules. Is that a crime? Also I just remembered that Serebii doesn't follow smogon either. Just curious as to your opinions on that.

Agreed. Smogon does have intelligent people but no one is obligated to follow someone else just because they said so.

BTW... SCV = SCV from Starcraft?

[Silent Storm]

Actually, right now Serebii follows Smogon, a Mod said that their attempt at a list around the DP Era failed because of a bias against OU titans such as Blissey, Salamence, Tyranitar and friends plys no meaningful disscusion came from it.

[SCV]

BTW... SCV = SCV from Starcraft?

SCV= Several Complex Variables. Its my research area in Math. You might see SCVgeo floating around hat means SCV was taken. geo is for my focus within SCV being geometry.

Actually, right now Serebii follows Smogon, a Mod said that their attempt at a list around the DP Era failed because of a bias against OU titans such as Blissey, Salamence, Tyranitar and friends plys no meaningful disscusion came from it.

link please?

[Silent Storm]

Can't right now (on Wii) but the thread where I saw the post was named "changes to 4th gen battling" or something like that in the 4th Gen WiFi Center there.

[randomspot555]

^^^That thread was originally made so all the whining about Garchomp should go there. Now it's mainly use to discuss battle stats and, when they emerge, new sets.

Also I just remembered that Serebii doesn't follow smogon either. Just curious as to your opinions on that.

SPPF's Battle Forum is word-for-word standard clauses (Sleep/Species/OHKO/Evasion) and they add Hax Items to their banned list in their list of Standard Rules.

Their competitive RMT forum follows Smogon rules to a T, mainly because many of them are mainly Shoddy battlers.

There's been attempts at building an SPPF tier, but it consisted of about 5 people who were sort of trying and a bunch of other people just doing +1 post count. And for the huge attempt to be different, it turned out largely the same with a few exceptions. And it wasn't backed by any evidence besides theory-mon.

[SCV]

I see. I had not read this post by Serebii correctly (or did not remember what it said correctly): http://www.serebiiforums.com/showpost.php?p=9521273&postcount=18

[randomspot555]

I see. I had not read this post by Serebii correctly (or did not remember what it said correctly): http://www.serebiiforums.com/showpost.php?p=9521273&postcount=18

Oh, he's referencing the weekly article Pokemon of the Week, which is a weekly article that mainly deals with competitive aspects of a Pokemon.

http://serebii.net/potw/

By the looks of it, the last one was done in 2007.

As far as I can tell, Serebii has little to no involvement with the forums outside of what I imagine are the administrative duties. I don't think I've ever read a post of his in the Battle Forum or Competitive RMT, at least not in recent memory.

[SCV]

Ok, we have decided that we will start out using smogon's tiers for a while. We will set up our a shoddy server so we can collect our own data, then if necessary we will diverge.

[Enkidu]

Oh, so we're going to host our own shoddy server? I didn't know we could do that, coolio. I haven't competitive battled in a while. I'm looking forward to fighting you guys .

[randomspot555]

I guess I'll finally have to download Shoddy.

[SwitzaHouse]

I have my doubts about the rules of the current meta-game, I always thought that the clauses only make certain PKMN useless, no OHKOs then Study on Donphan and Skarmory is useless, too many hypnosis usage then have a PKMN with Insomnia, or use Worry Seed. Examples like this come to mind when looking at the current standard meta-game. Of course I give it up to Smogon for all their hard work don't get me wrong, but I find that it hinders the unpredictable and near unlimited game play. I have yet to determine if that is a good thing or not.

I have thought a good idea would be to set grades (A - D) to PKMN out of their tiers. Then set limit to how many A grade PKMN can be on one team, then how many B grade PKMN can be on a team and so on. (Of course I still believe some PKMN, like certain Uber tier PKMN still need restrictions) I may not be describing it very well but I see it as a way to try and have more usable PKMN in the meta-game then now as well as keeping aspects of PKMN that are, for lack of a better phrase, tossed to the side or just over looked in the present meta-game, like certain abilities and moves.

(Of course this idea would take a great deal of time, testing and tweaking but I feel could work)