forums Infraction system

[randomspot555]

Before I start, this is not a post against the rules. I understand the need for rules and why they exist. I'm also not here to step on the administration's toes. But the infraction system, which seems especially rampant among Pokemon forums, doesn't really seem to be all that efficient.

In some cases, it makes a generally good user with a "rap sheet" of crap that really doesn't mean much. In many forums, the definition of "Spam" and "excessive swearing" seem to fluctuate. Is it spam if the topic of conversation is not the original topic, technically off topic, but evolved naturally from the discussion? Is it a 2 sentence reply vs a 5 word reply? Before I came to Pokemon forums, I thought SPAM and advertising were the same, and apparently they aren't.

Excessive swearing is also something that seems ripe for "at an admin's discretion." Hopefully this won't be an issue at Project Pokemon, but at Serebii's forums, some mods are more lenient/strict on it, and a few forums have rules for swearing that are cOMPLETELY different than anything else.

Especially in these two areas which seem to be very vague, firm boundaries should be established in defining what is and isn't acceptable. There are cases where one mod would know better, like if they mod a specific forum that has it's own rules regarding trading/battling/making cheats/etc..., but I don't see why a consensus can't be reached on what is spam and what is excessive swearing.

(Maybe, for swearing, a censor could be used that replaces swear words with ****. And instead of "swearing" as a rule, "censor evasion" would be, which is much more clear cut. However, I understand the site is new and that might require a new patch or something like that).

The other issue I have with it is...the system itself. Warez talk/linking, impersonation accoutns, blatant advertising are all things that I don't see needing a second chance. It's really hard to "Accidentally" do these, and I don't see established users ever breaking them. From ALL types of forums I visit, these are newcomers coming here for just that one purpose.

I would like to go on and make suggestions on new systems, but I really don't know what's available to you. Manual bans that are either permanent or last for a fixed amount of time perhaps? Eliminates "points" and gives immediate action.

[Poryhack]

I don't know about it being inefficient. IMO Pokesav.org forums got out of control after Platinum came out, and a lot of it was due to there being no standard, easy way to punish users for the day-to-day offenses. Now I can give ten infractions or more in the time it would've written me to type out a reply warning a user on pokesav.org, and there is an actual stimulus for them to not do it again. Previously, I would just have to mentally keep tabs on repeat offenders; that just doesn't work on a larger forum.

Spam and excessive swearing are hard to define beyond "use common sense"; we can't cover every possibility so why would we design some bulky, inflexible standard in a failed attempt at doing so? I understand that this depends largely on the quality of the staff, so let me make this very clear. I think that what will set this apart from other major pokemon sites is it's staff. I will make every effort to steer far away from the direction Serebii and other sites have gone, and this is something we've already discussed at length as a staff.

For one thing, being "kid-friendly" is pretty much the bottom of my priority list. Many sites IMO have gone wrong right there; they become so kid friendly that they alienate their mature users. And it's not just that mature users want to swear every now and then, swearing has very little to do with it.

Per "the system": There is no infraction for impersonation or what I would consider blatant advertisement (actually advertising a product, not just some 11 yo's new fail attempt at a forum, but even that will give a significant infraction); those don't require points. I expect any mod who sees such a thing to permanently ban the IP on sight.

As for warez, I just think given the nature of this site that people deserve a 2nd chance (and that is all they get, 2). There is also the issue that we have previously been fine with (and sometimes even encouraged ) things that are now considered warez talk.

[Greencat]

Basically, My Opinions are:

I think it's pretty efficient. It lets people know that certain things have different levels of severity. Otherwise, if everything was worth one point, Spamming could be counted as bad as linking to explicit content. =/

As for kid-friendly, I don't really worry to much. However, if someone is swearing like crazy in all caps, but in an angry tone, than that's bad.

[randomspot555]

Before I make the rest of my reply, I can't ask much more than that the staff have considered this and think it's for the best. That's ultimately all I can ask for.

Spam and excessive swearing are hard to define beyond "use common sense"; we can't cover every possibility so why would we design some bulky, inflexible standard in a failed attempt at doing so? I understand that this depends largely on the quality of the staff, so let me make this very clear. I think that what will set this apart from other major pokemon sites is it's staff. I will make every effort to steer far away from the direction Serebii and other sites have gone, and this is something we've already discussed at length as a staff.

While I can see your point, I can't see why excessive swearing can't be strictly defined. There are some swearing that becomes almost part of natural talk as like space filler, whereas others such as racial slurs or homosexual slurs, are much more.

The warez part is something I overlooked. Considering the nature of the site, it does make sense to give people a second chance.

[Poryhack]

I actually meant to include something about that in my last post...

I don't foresee what I would consider excessive swearing a problem. Casual swearing done to emphasize a point or express extreme emotion is OK as long as it's not being ridiculously overused.

Anything directed at a person or group of persons probably won't be accepted as it will fall under the "considerate of other members" rule.

Hope that is enough clarification.

[johnsom]

I've found something else on these threads that tugs my chain. Religious talk or any referment should be banned too, that is, not including PM's. Will you try to do something about this too please?

Edited April 19, 2009 by johnsom
Use of words

[Okami]

I disagree, johnsom. If there is a thread where people are intelligently discussing religion, or spirituality in general, I don't think that should be banned.

However, if someone is bashing and flaming someone for their beliefs, that should be banned. It's a topic of respect, in my opinion. :]

Because there ARE people out there who believe very strongly in their views of God and such, and would want to be able to talk about it openly, honestly, and intelligently. You can have conversations like that without being rude and/or shoving beliefs down anyone's throat.

n__n Hope I come across as understand. I do realize what you are saying, I've seen religious discussion get way out of hand, some people are just holier-than-thou and unruly and mean. But there are also very generous people out there, who mean no harm by saying "Hey, I like to worship, do you too?" And trying to discuss the finer points of their beliefs, like why they enjoy it and such.

But, everyone does have their own personal opinions and such, just expressing mine

(Because I am such a very opinionated person like that!)

Also, I agree with swearing in moderation. Casual, as Pory said. Personally, as long as it's not derogetory in nature, or the F-bomb, I'm fine with it. I hear enough crap in my peer group, that I'm fine with a little. Too much burns my eyes.

[Poryhack]

I see nothing inherently wrong with discussing region in the off-topic forum. Just follow the "be considerate of other members" rule and it's cool.

[Kris]

In general, I'd agree with Okami's position, on religion and, although it hasn't been mentioned yet, politics as well. The difficulty lies in people having an intelligent and respectful discussion without devolving into a flame war. I have other places where I discuss these topics, so I doubt I'd contribute much here. But if people here want to have those kinds of conversations and can do so reasonably, that could be ok. If people show that they can't handle it respectfully, those topics could then be banned.

[randomspot555]

I don't think religious, political, or [insert controversial subject here] talk needs to be banned specifically. If people are trolling, they can be punished for being a troll, regardless of the topic.

[Okami]

I am glad that I am reasonable in my response, and actually agreed upon. I wasn't expecting that, so thank you. And I must say I agree with the adding politics in there with that.

Both have the potential to be very controversial, but there's nothing actually wrong with them, as long as they're fair discussion.

[Syberia]

What I would consider to be the most well-run forum I go to explicitly bans talk of religion and politics, as both of these subjects inevitably lead to fights, often personal grudges that spill over into other areas as well. There's no need for any of it at a pokemon forum.

[randomspot555]

What I would consider to be the most well-run forum I go to explicitly bans talk of religion and politics, as both of these subjects inevitably lead to fights, often personal grudges that spill over into other areas as well. There's no need for any of it at a pokemon forum.

There's no reason it can't exist in the off-topic/debate forum. Other boards might have a different standard, but I'd hope we think our users can handle mature subjects, religious, political, or otherwise. If it becomes personal, they should be reprimanded, regardless of what the subject is.

It's also not really something to worry about, since Debate seems to be relatively low traffic right now.

[Neo]

I have to agree with randomspot here, If people want to talk about religion, Let them. Its not harming anyone is it? No. Just once its not selfish or offense it should be alright

[black blood lust]

what exactly does an infraction prevent a user from doing? and what do the points represent?

[randomspot555]

what exactly does an infraction prevent a user from doing? and what do the points represent?

There used to be a post outlying what happens depending on how many points are accumulated, but I can't find it any more.

[Fallen]

I believe if you reach 100 infraction points you're automatically banned for 2 weeks.

[Neo]

Yes that is Correct

[supersniper]

Infractions are usually used to punish a person for not abiding to the forum rules. On many forums (vBulletin) the infraction deducts points from a users rep but because there is no rep system on this forum the infraction points should just accumulate and just have consequences when you reach a certain amount. Like if you get 10 then you are temp banned for a day or so and then 25 temp banned for a week 50 then a month 100 then perma banned... you can adjust the punishments accordingly of course.

[Poryhack]

There used to be a post outlying what happens depending on how many points are accumulated, but I can't find it any more.

Yeah, I made it in the rules thread. You're guess is as good as mine why it's gone. =/ I'll see what the other admins say.

[randomspot555]

Yeah, I made it in the rules thread. You're guess is as good as mine why it's gone. =/ I'll see what the other admins say.

It really should be posted. Every other forum I'm on explains how their warning/ban system works, no reason why this one should be the exception.

[cantbesaved]

how many infraction pts. do you have to get to be banned

[ZMaster]

how many infraction pts. do you have to get to be banned

It was mentioned in this same thread. 100, was it?

[bear831]

do infraction points go away after a certain amount of time like 2 months or does it stay with you till the end of time?

[randomspot555]

do infraction points go away after a certain amount of time like 2 months or does it stay with you till the end of time?

Generally, one month. Some last a bit longer, and custom ones can last longer.