Same sex marriage?

[randomspot555]

Agreed.

By the way... keep in mind the title of this thread. Same sex marriage, not whether or not homosexuality is okay by you.

Here's something for thought:

Legalizing same sex marriage would actually decrease the number of sexual partners a gay person has, thereby significantly limiting their probability of increasing the spread of AIDs through the homosexual community (through passing it on if they have it, or getting it from someone else).

Ironically, the most afflicted demographic of HIV/Aids isn't gay men, but African-Americans, making up something like 47%. wikipedia gave me this link, and I've also heard this said in numerous Afro-American Studies courses.

But I doubt we'll be imposing restrictions on African-Americans because of this.

[Zafur]

Yeah, pretty much what Randomspot said.

Cheating damages a relationship and is a moral offense, and homosexuality is just an issue with your religion. Even if it IS sinning, it's not as immoral as cheating and it does not hurt other people or relationships.

Edit: I don't think legalizing marriage would directly cause a person to have less partners. If a person is in a serious relationship for marriage, they're gonna stick with the person regardless of whether they're able to.

[kuoleva]

Why should individuals have to change who they are to please some other group of people? Because they said so?

Remember a true democracy is set up so that it's ruled by the majority but the minority still has rights. Even if people are totally against homosexuals, that shouldn't change anything that they still have (Well, should) the same legal rights and benefits everyone else enjoys.

Amen to that.

I also agree that religious beliefs need to be taken out of the government. Really... If the country was run according to the Bible... What hell would we be in?

Let's see... We'd still be stoning people. We'd still be sacrificing people/animals. It would be the death penalty if we wore clothes made of different materials. I could go on and on, but I won't. I'm not saying your beliefs are wrong, I'm just saying that religion and government should be two separate entities.

I say, give them rights. If you don't like it? Suck it up and tough it out. It has nothing to do with you. Nothing at all. I wish people would quit PMSing over the lives of others. >_< If you believe how they live is a sin, fine. Trust me, everyone has heard the "going to hell, immoral, blah" speeches. They obviously don't care. They just want to live their lives.

And don't even say that "they corrupt our kids into lives of immoral, wanton pleasure" or something like that. Let's adopt the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy, and get on with our lives.

[Turtlekid2]

I also agree that religious beliefs need to be taken out of the government. Really... If the country was run according to the Bible... What hell would we be in?

The country was founded on biblical principles. A more appropriate question would be, "what hell would we be in if this country had never been run according to the Bible?"

Let's see... We'd still be stoning people. We'd still be sacrificing people/animals. It would be the death penalty if we wore clothes made of different materials. I could go on and on, but I won't. I'm not saying your beliefs are wrong, I'm just saying that religion and government should be two separate entities.

1. Christians never stoned people. They were often stoned themselves, but I don't recall Christians stoning others.

2. Again, Christians never sacrificed animals. You're thinking of Judaism.

3. My beliefs say that my beliefs should have a part in government. You can't say that they shouldn't and not say my beliefs are wrong.

I say, give them rights. If you don't like it? Suck it up and tough it out. It has nothing to do with you. Nothing at all. I wish people would quit PMSing over the lives of others. >_< If you believe how they live is a sin, fine. Trust me, everyone has heard the "going to hell, immoral, blah" speeches. They obviously don't care. They just want to live their lives.

What rights do heterosexual people have that homosexual people don't?

Edited June 16, 2009 by Turtlekid2
Removed flamebait material

[FLOOTENKERP]

By whom (ie back up your statement with a source)?

Hm, my science teacher told me that, but after researching it a bit, I found that it is a gene. They have no choice, but I still think it is wrong. Sorry if you disagree. It's not a religious thing, its a morality thing.

[wraith89]

Hm, my science teacher told me that, but after researching it a bit, I found that it is a gene. They have no choice, but I still think it is wrong. Sorry if you disagree. It's not a religious thing, its a morality thing.

I still don't think it's genetics. Homosexuality is definitely by choice. What proof do people have that it is genetically based? People ought to stop blaming their faulty disposition at genetics. A gambler said "my genes made me do this". Er... really?

[Zafur]

I believe homosexuality is probably caused between a combination of genes and nurture. Gambling is kinda different than sexual orientation though. It's a habit, and for all we know, there may be genes that cause people to pick up bad habits easier, since genes DO affect how our mind functions. He was probably half joking and saying that gambling ran in his family.

Can you prove homosexuality is by choice? Can you think gay thoughts and fully enjoy them? Right now?

Whether or not it's by choice, they deserve the right for their marriage to be recognized by law. They're not asking for religions to recognize it or to be able to hold religious ceremonies, just that they are able to hold a marriage and have it be fully legal. Them having the right to marry isn't damaging anything but possibly themselves if it really is a sin to God. Other than that, it harms no one. The fact that it's "abnormal" is irrelevant. Some humans can't make kids, and there has been homosexuality witnessed in the wild, in nature. As I mentioned before, forcing them to have "civil unions" instead of marriages is synonymous with forcing blacks to use Black Only water fountains, waiting lines, etc.

I honestly don't see why not to let them have rights, and only see reasons for it.

[FLOOTENKERP]

I still don't think it's genetics. Homosexuality is definitely by choice. What proof do people have that it is genetically based? People ought to stop blaming their faulty disposition at genetics. A gambler said "my genes made me do this". Er... really?

Do you know how many gay people committed suicide due the fact that they thought they were an abomination of God? If they had a choice, then trust me, they would want to be straight. Some people are proud of it though, and I find it disgusting. I hope nobody is offended by that.

[wraith89]

Do you know how many gay people committed suicide due the fact that they thought they were an abomination of God? If they had a choice, then trust me, they would want to be straight. Some people are proud of it though, and I find it disgusting. I hope nobody is offended by that.

God wouldn't make people sodomites, Floot. It was their own upbringing.

Given the fact there are a number of ex-homosexuals... you would think something about that is strange, don't you think?

[PokeDaemon]

All right... First off... Scientist have proven that it is genetic.

Read this article: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/06/scientists-link/

Brains are, according to everything I have learned about the brain, not molded in terms of shape. Therefore if the above article can prove that brains are different when looking at homosexual and heterosexual males/females then it obviously genetic. Of course scientists still have a lot of unknowns in terms of the brain so honestly whether it is genetic/psychological/neurological/pathological/ecetera we as humans are currently incapable of proving.

Whether it is right or wrong, I do not know. I can say, Zafur, that trying to compare the rights of homosexual men and women with the rights of African Americans under Jim Crow laws is a bad idea. First off, homosexual men and women have all of the same rights as heterosexual men and women. America does not force them to do anything. Under Jim Crow laws African Americans could not go to certain places or do certain things, but you fail to realize that Heterosexuals are now incapable of marrying the same sex, just like Homosexuals. In other words, America is not limiting the rights of one group, but the rights of everyone (whether a group does not like that is their issue).

I suppose that this really should not be about whether it is right or wrong, but whether America should allow all Americans to be happy.

[FLOOTENKERP]

God wouldn't make people sodomites, Floot. It was their own upbringing.

Given the fact there are a number of ex-homosexuals... you would think something about that is strange, don't you think?

Here's how my belief works, God had a deal with Satan that God would allow Satan to control the Earth to see how he would take care of it. Satan always said he would be a better leader for humans. God allowed him to control the Earth to prove him wrong once the end of the world comes, which is apparently coming soon. Homosexuality, in my belief, is Satan's work.

[kuoleva]

God wouldn't make people sodomites, Floot. It was their own upbringing.

Given the fact there are a number of ex-homosexuals... you would think something about that is strange, don't you think?

I've met these so-called "ex-gays". You can tell most, probably all, are lying about it so mommy will love them. It's all just repressed. The fact they get married means nothing. It's acting. Like... Well, porn. Most of the women look like they enjoy it. They don't. My friend told me a story about a friend of her cousins that did porn, I won't go into detail, but the acting she did is on the same level as "ex-gays".

You'd be surprised how good at lying they are. You can't change it. It's like my friend and gay camp. You know what he did? He went and shot himself because of that mentality, that he could be "changed". Ask ANY psychologist, one with an actual degree and years of research under his or her belt. All of them will say it cannot be changed. Repressed? Yes, but that's a horrible thing to do. It's even more "immoral" than sodomy.

Edited June 16, 2009 by randomspot555
took out spam

[FLOOTENKERP]

Hm, proves it's a gene. They can't be changed, and they never will. I do feel sorry for them, as it is not their fault they feel this way, but I dislike them. I juswt don't believe in same sex marriage.

[randomspot555]

Okay, everyone. Apparently a few of you are incapable of posting without being complete jerks about it. I'm editing out a bunch of flame bait in a few posts, and I'm still deciding on if I should just infract people and tell them to stop posting here, or close the whole thread.

EDIT: Apparently it was really only one person. I think most of you have done pretty well, and I see no reason to close the thread. Please carry on.

---------- Post added at 09:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 PM ----------

Hm, my science teacher told me that, but after researching it a bit, I found that it is a gene. They have no choice, but I still think it is wrong. Sorry if you disagree. It's not a religious thing, its a morality thing.

I still don't think it's genetics. Homosexuality is definitely by choice. What proof do people have that it is genetically based? People ought to stop blaming their faulty disposition at genetics. A gambler said "my genes made me do this". Er... really?

So much misinformation.

No, there is no "gay" gene, just as there is no "straight" gene. However, just because there is no genetic gene that's responsible for sexuality doesn't mean it's a choice, especially not one of those choices like "Pancakes or waffles for breakfast."

I'll explain, once again ironically using religion as an example.

As I said before, religion is 100% a choice. So is stuff like following cultural norms, the political beliefs you have, political party you're a part of, and so on.

But the thing is, people turn out a lot like their parents. If you're raised by two Democrats, you'll probably be a Democrat. If you're raised by two Catholics, you'll probably stay Catholic, even if you stray away from the Church. It's extremely unlikely of someone raised in a religion to switch. Similarly the societal and cultural norms you're raised with will stay with you, even if you move somewhere where those norms just aren't compatible with society. Now there is debate if people turn out because of nature or nurture Wiki here.

But try this out: Ask a little kid who has no idea what poltiics are, and ask him something like who are the good guys, Republicans or Democrats. That'll tell you quite a bit.

And wraith, yes, addiction can be traced to...well, not necessarily genetics, but certainly the brain. There's a variety of neurological disorders, and the brain does have an addiction center

Do you know how many gay people committed suicide due the fact that they thought they were an abomination of God?

Do you?

If they had a choice, then trust me, they would want to be straight. Some people are proud of it though, and I find it disgusting. I hope nobody is offended by that.

Why would they be disguested by who they are?

God wouldn't make people sodomites, Floot. It was their own upbringing.

Given the fact there are a number of ex-homosexuals... you would think something about that is strange, don't you think?

I've still yet to be sold on the pseudo-science of straightening someone out. I'm open to it, but it seems every time someone names someone or a group, they almost always have some financial backing by a religious institute.

Whether it is right or wrong, I do not know. I can say, Zafur, that trying to compare the rights of homosexual men and women with the rights of African Americans under Jim Crow laws is a bad idea. First off, homosexual men and women have all of the same rights as heterosexual men and women.

False.

Power of attorney, getting covered on your partner's insurance, and basic stuff that just automatically becomes possible as part of a legal marriage ranges from being a huge hassle to near impossible depending on where you live when...well, you can't get legally married to the person you love.

In another case of discrimination, the conservative Christian, tax evading group Advance America, led by...well, conservative Christian, tax evading Eric Miller, had a fit when Governor Mitch Daniels (Republican- Indiana) decided to continue the Equal Employment Opportunity employed by his predecessors. And all that was was that sexual orientation and gender identity (along with the host of usual, like age, disability, race, and religion) would not be a factor in hiring, firing, or disciplining state employees.

Advance America and co then launch a media storm, saying that this gave homosexuals "special rights" and that there is now a quota in state government, and crap like "how would you like a crossdresser teaching your children?". Of course, none of that is true. Daneils was just exercising a core conservative people that people's private lives are just that, private, and that it wouldn't be a factor when being employed by the state.

Then Advance America did this again when the City of Indianapolis tried to do the same thing, adding sexual orientation into a list of protected classes that can't be discriminated against in hiring or firing. But thank the gods they won, because you can still fire someone just for being gay, regardless of their job performance, right here in Indiana.

Under Jim Crow laws African Americans could not go to certain places or do certain things, but you fail to realize that Heterosexuals are now incapable of marrying the same sex, just like Homosexuals. In other words, America is not limiting the rights of one group, but the rights of everyone (whether a group does not like that is their issue).

But why would a heterosexual want to marry a...well, soeone of the same sex?

Again, I fail to see the problem in letting two consenting adults enter into a LEGAL (not religious) CONTRACT.

Here's how my belief works, God had a deal with Satan that God would allow Satan to control the Earth to see how he would take care of it. Satan always said he would be a better leader for humans. God allowed him to control the Earth to prove him wrong once the end of the world comes, which is apparently coming soon. Homosexuality, in my belief, is Satan's work.

So...you honestly believe that God is doing backroom deals with Satan?

That doesn't sound like a very nice God, letting the epitomy of pure evil and willingly give him power.

[Illithian]

God wouldn't make people sodomites, Floot. It was their own upbringing.

Given the fact there are a number of ex-homosexuals... you would think something about that is strange, don't you think?

There is no homosexuality "gene". Thats a myth invented by people to try to combat religion, which, in my humble opinion, is a lost cause. However, you can explain ex-homosexuality.

Firstly, I think many homosexuals live in denial for much of their teenage years. Homosexuality is so frowned upon that I don't see why it would be a choice, and if it is, why anyone would choose it. Then again, that still doesnt explain ex-homosexuality, and thats one of the most used arguments.

So, knowing that:

A. Homosexuality is not a choice.

B. There is no "gay gene".

There must be something during the person's life that makes them homosexual. Now, I think there are a few things that might qualify for that:

A. If a person develops an abnormal dislike of their father.

B. If a person never goes to sex ed or never has a sex talk with their parents, so they learn from their friends

C. If a person's mother dies, so a person loves their father as their mother

Of course, thats just speculation, but lets continue with it. So assuming at least one of those things are true, something must change within the process that makes people form sexual desires towards someone: puberty.

Something must be different about the thought processes that homosexuals receive during puberty. That would explain quite a few things:

Firstly, it would explain why its not a choice. Heterosexuals do not see loving women as a choice. Is it a choice? If you truly wanted to, could you somehow force yourself to love men? I highly doubt that.

Secondly, it would explain the reasons during a person's childhood affecting sexuality. If someone has one of the reasons detailed above during their childhood, if those thoughts remain during puberty, it might affect sexuality based on what the person grew up knowing and being used to.

However, it doesnt explain ex-homosexuality. I personally believe that if someone is in total denial and hates themselves above all, and someone comes to them and gives them love, they will love them back. So if a homosexual person hates themselves, and a woman comes to them and shows them kindness and the love of a partner, they can love that woman back. However, I don't think the homosexuality caused during puberty can ever be reversed; it can only be ignored as much as possible, and love can allow someone to ignore homosexual impulses.

Just my two cents. And by the way, to the first responder of this thread, I didn't create this thread to split members; I think the point of the debate is so you can truly see how intelligent, empathetic, and sympathetic someone is, along with understanding and acceptance of someone's belief and kindness towards others. I think people who are truly homophobic are very shortsighted.

Oh, and Floot, if homosexuality is indeed Satan's work, then why aren't you sympathetic? Towards someone, just like you, who was attacked by Satan? That in itself seems to be a crime, not to be able to understand and sympathize towards someone. And furthermore, why doesnt the 'all powerful' God do something about it?

[FLOOTENKERP]

So...you honestly believe that God is doing backroom deals with Satan?

That doesn't sound like a very nice God, letting the epitomy of pure evil and willingly give him power.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, man. That's like an attack to my belief. Okay, here goes whatever I know about my religion. There's a chapter in our book that is titled "Why does God allow Evil in this World?". It brought up the deal, and once the end of the world has come, whoever followed his commands will stay on an Earthly paradise, and 114000 will go to heaven, while the sinners will be killed instantly. In this case, homosexuals are sinners. And it has been proven that it is a genetic thing. Sexual attraction has to do with genetics. Look it up, I'm sure you'll find something fast.

[Melesmelda]

I believe that two consenting adults, regardless of gender, should be allowed to marry (or at least have a civil union if their church of choice frowns upon that sort of thing) with all the same rights that heterosexual couples get. Everyone deserves the right to be happy and to love, as far as I am concerned.

[randomspot555]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, man. That's like an attack to my belief.

False.

It's not an attack.

You said it yourself.

I'll even show you:

God had a deal with Satan

That isn't the same as "God allws evil into the world" because that's simply a result of free will. You specifically said God has a deal with Satan. Not an attack. You said it yourself.

There's a chapter in our book that is titled "Why does God allow Evil in this World?".

What book?

It brought up the deal,

What deal? The deal that God made with Satan? Where does this deal come from? Why would God conspire with the entity of pure evil?

and once the end of the world has come, whoever followed his commands will stay on an Earthly paradise, and 114000 will go to heaven, while the sinners will be killed instantly.

That's an extremely narrow interpenetration of a passage in the Bible that quotes 144,000 (not 114,000) will get in. What is missing is context. Because at the time, 144,000 is a lot of people. Now, that is like the size of a medium sized city including it's suburbs.

Also, again a gross misinterperation, the actual verse reads:

Revelations 14:1 1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

So 144,000 are already there. No where does it say that is the limit. And even if it did, that means there already there,and thus no one else is getting into heaven.

Doesn't sound like a very appealing religion.

The other point where you obviously are wrong, and there is no denying this, is "whoever followed his commands". I'm guessing you mean the Ten Commandments. But no one is without sin. We've all broken those hundreds, probably thousands, of times over.

So far, you've said that your faith (which you've yet to clarify) believes God has willingly made a deal with Satan that gives him some power, and that only those who are without sin (IE no one) get into paradise.

And it has been proven that it is a genetic thing.

You keep saying this but you've yet to give a source.

Sexual attraction has to do with genetics. Look it up, I'm sure you'll find something fast.

No, not "look it up." It is not up to me to prove you wrong. You have to source your definitive statements.. If you can't source your facts, then stop posting them as facts.

Of course all of this doesn't matter because no one gives a damn about your or my or anyone's religion when it comes to the basic legal rights that citizens of a democracy enjoy. Everyone should have access to them, and no one's religion should get in the way.

[Illithian]

The Church is separate from legal rights. As it should be.

Unfortunately, because its so rich and has so many followers who seem to blindly and hypocritically take some parts of the bible and look at them literally to suit their beliefs, then call other parts of the bible as "too strong" and take them as a vague guide.

Honestly, it seems that you're taking the bible for its exact word just because you think its disgusting. Well, its not for YOU to decide, and calling them sinners is going to make people hate religion even more because it has no understanding, tolerance, and interpretation of the belief of others.

And moreso, if sexuality is a genetic thing, is it MY fault that I was born with brown hair? Yet thats a genetic thing. So if indeed its a genetic thing, is it THEIR fault? If its NOT A CHOICE, how can it be a sin? Lets quickly define sin.

Sin: an act that is regarded by theologians as a transgression of God's will

An act. A sin is something you choose to do that is estrangement from god. And yet you stated yourself:

If they had a choice, then trust me, they would want to be straight.

You said yourself, they don't have a choice. A sin is a CHOICE. And you said yourself:

I do feel sorry for them, as it is not their fault they feel this way...

Oh, so its not their fault that they feel this way, and yet they're sinners?

Theres so much disagreeing information.

Anyway, I think this discussion has gotten out of hand. People have stated their beliefs, they aren't changing regardless how much proof is given because when it comes down to it, its not a choice, and its not a "sexuality gene". Also, this discussion is not about religion. Its about lawful marriage.

And in response to your question, Floot, about the rights of lawful matrimony, I shall list them:

"A marriage, by definition, bestows rights and obligations on the married parties, and sometimes on relatives as well, being the sole mechanism for the creation of affinal ties (in-laws). These may include:

Giving a husband/wife or his/her family control over a spouse’s sexual services, labor, and property.

Giving a husband/wife responsibility for a spouse’s debts.

Giving a husband/wife visitation rights when his/her spouse is incarcerated or hospitalized.

Giving a husband/wife control over his/her spouse’s affairs when the spouse is incapacitated.

Establishing the second legal guardian of a parent’s child.

Establishing a joint fund of property for the benefit of children.

Establishing a relationship between the families of the spouses."

(Wikipedia)

And quite honestly, if the church is so against their beloved matrimony, then just let them enter in a Civil Union... give them proper rights.

[randomspot555]

Calm down. I already said they don't have a choice because it is genetic. They are still sinning.

First off, you haven't given a single source that said sexual orientation is caused by genetics.

And even assuming it is, how can they be sinning if they have no choice over it, if it's quite literally built into their genes? You can't go against how you inherently are. People can't inherently change themselves if it's built into them as deeply as genetics.

[FLOOTENKERP]

Some people are born with mental insanity. They cannot help being insane. If they kill somebody, should they be pardoned simply due to their mental health?

Now read about the gay gene, it's all over the place in Google. Scientifically backed up.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus3.htm

Edited June 16, 2009 by FLOOTENKERP
Typo

[Greencat]

Most people are born with mental insanity. They cannot help being insane. If they kill somebody, should they be pardoned simply due to their mental health?

Now read about the gay gene, it's all over the place in Google. Scientifically backed up.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus3.htm

1. People that are insance shouldn't be allowed in public.

2. That's twins, though, what if you don't have twins?

[Kaarosu]

If you're going to use google use it right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation

Always look for the newest information when trying to take action in a debate.

Edit: As for my view on this debate, I think it should be allowed. It's not like homosexual people are out to change the religious definition of marriage all they want is the legal equality of marriage.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Kaarosu
My thoughts

[Greencat]

What if they want to get married in a Catholic Church and they don't belive in it? Can they sue them, but if they do, what about freedom of religion?

[Kaarosu]

I don't quite understand your question, but why would they want to get married in a Catholic Church in the first place especially if they don't believe in it seems kinda stupid to me.