Creation of the universe: Darwin or Bible

[pokemonfan]

So we all know that somehow this world we all live in today, the entire universe came to be. The complexities of everything right down to mitosis all had to happen somehow. So how do you think that it happened. Darwin's theory has something to do with ooze that became X which became X which became X which became X and so on and then X turned into us or humans. The bible states that God created everything in 6 days on the 7th day he rested. I think those are the two main ones on the subject of creation. Please post your opinion and back up your answer...now for mine...

You see I believe in the bible. I think it makes more sense and I believe the bible to be 100% truth. The actual probability that over billions and billions of years the universe fell into the precise location it lies in is just inprobable. The actual idea that over billions of years the earth formed into the exact location it is now in order to sustain life. If our planet was just a little bit off where it is now life would be unable to exist! The actual theory that life came from inanimate ooze that was zapped by who knows what is just well 0.

The scientists that back this thing say that miracles are impossible because they dont see it and it is not able to be replicated. Well....what about your ooze! Did you see it? "well know it was X years ago no one was around..." is it able to be replicated? "Well know it is a once in an existance thing it can only happen once..." well then you are incorrect by your own basis.

Well you know how they say that the ooze goes to X and then X well then how come there is not a single legit fossil record of a transspecies creature? Your answer-because they dont exist. The whole theory in my opinion is nonsense and the guy who made it up and his offspring are now filthy rich because of it and because of money no one is able to stop them.

There are a lot of wholes in the theory and the earth does not top 10000 years of age. The bible has the answers and I believe to be the greatest historical record in the history of man kind. The whole evolution thing just has to many wholes to believe in. Ok, there is my argument. Now what do you say?

[wraith89]

I'm actually writing an article about this... but I will need more support regarding this information. But if someone brings up something, I will try to answer them the best I can... so please wait

[Poryhack]

Darwin is not known for his ideas on the creation of the universe, at least get that part straight before you make a debate thread.

[wraith89]

Darwin is not known for his ideas on the creation of the universe, at least get that part straight before you make a debate thread.

He was more concerned with the origins of species, I believe.

[HottSushiz]

So we all know that somehow this world we all

You see I believe in the bible. I think it makes more sense and I believe the bible to be 100% truth. The actual probability that over billions and billions of years the universe fell into the precise location it lies in is just inprobable. The actual idea that over billions of years the earth formed into the exact location it is now in order to sustain life. If our planet was just a little bit off where it is now life would be unable to exist! The actual theory that life came from inanimate ooze that was zapped by who knows what is just well 0.

That's me answer earth, is placed perfectly, if it's a tiny bit near the sun, we would all burn up, and if earth was a little bit further, we would all freeze, i think it's strange, that the ooze, or whatever, thought of an idea of putting the earth there, i know it's God's doing.

If you have visited church, people are getting saved, either emotionally, or physically, like last Sunday, we had an Healing Service, and this one boy, he was deaf at birth, or something, which made him have to use a hearing aid, when it was his turn to get prayed for, and healed, the pastor shouted to take off his hearing aids, thus the pastor, and everyone around started praying, and the boy asks his mum why are people so loud, and his mum started crying.

there has been numerous cases where the patient is healed, and the doctors are fumbling trying to figure out, like once there was a guy he was due to die from cancer like a week away, and when he asked for the prayer request, he miraculously healed, the doctor's were astonished, there wasn't any trace of Cancer left.

[darklord]

So we all know that somehow this world we all live in today, the entire universe came to be. The complexities of everything right down to mitosis all had to happen somehow. So how do you think that it happened. Darwin's theory has something to do with ooze that became X which became X which became X which became X and so on and then X turned into us or humans. The bible states that God created everything in 6 days on the 7th day he rested. I think those are the two main ones on the subject of creation. Please post your opinion and back up your answer...now for mine...

You see I believe in the bible. I think it makes more sense and I believe the bible to be 100% truth. The actual probability that over billions and billions of years the universe fell into the precise location it lies in is just inprobable. The actual idea that over billions of years the earth formed into the exact location it is now in order to sustain life. If our planet was just a little bit off where it is now life would be unable to exist! The actual theory that life came from inanimate ooze that was zapped by who knows what is just well 0.

The scientists that back this thing say that miracles are impossible because they dont see it and it is not able to be replicated. Well....what about your ooze! Did you see it? "well know it was X years ago no one was around..." is it able to be replicated? "Well know it is a once in an existance thing it can only happen once..." well then you are incorrect by your own basis.

Well you know how they say that the ooze goes to X and then X well then how come there is not a single legit fossil record of a transspecies creature? Your answer-because they dont exist. The whole theory in my opinion is nonsense and the guy who made it up and his offspring are now filthy rich because of it and because of money no one is able to stop them.

There are a lot of wholes in the theory and the earth does not top 10000 years of age. The bible has the answers and I believe to be the greatest historical record in the history of man kind. The whole evolution thing just has to many wholes to believe in. Ok, there is my argument. Now what do you say?

i'm sorry but someone must take the side of darwin your say you can't make that ooze again but why would you you evolve when the speces is in trouble or needs food so the "ooze" would easel die and i'm sorry for all this but a god putting everting thing into place semen's a little out there but the theory that a planet explode and the rock came together and formed earth and then got water is not no offense to you beliefs

[kuoleva]

Oh, wow. I hate to be rude, m'dear, but there are FAR more creation myths than the bible and Darwin, who wasn't even famous for "creation". Personally, I believe there is a god, yes, but not your god. This is going to come off mean, but I'm not sugarcoating it.

God might be real. God might be not. I do not say "he", because that would imply I follow your religion. And to be perfectly honest, I did work at a day-care in a pentecostal church, and I think most churches brainwash their kids. I'm pagan, and by the grace of the Lord and Lady the pastor didn't find out for a time, and I was allowed to work there. What they spoon fed to those kids was horrible. Everything was literally retold to make Darwin as a blasphemer and liar, without even telling them about him. They said, "Jesus is good, Darwin will make you go to hell." And even went so far as to tell them to follow the bible WORD FOR WORD. These aren't really even kids, they're all just two years younger than me. When they found out I was a pagan, (my pentacle fell out of my shirt one day), I honestly and truly was scared they would burn or stone me. I'm not saying all followers of Christianity are like that, Goddess, no, but my experiences were bad enough to label most of them as psychopaths. I rambled a bit there, but you do get my point. This might be a generalization, but most conservative religious people see the world as black and white. If you think, even for a MOMENT that this might all be a ploy and scam, you are shunned from neighborhoods, communities, and even families. My grandmother and I haven't said a word to each other in over a year, because of her being so narrow minded.

Please, for the love of humanity, broaden your horizons. Read the Qur'an. I did. Read the Vedas, Tantras, Puranas, and Epicas. I did. Read something other than what the bible or your pastor gives you. Like I said, I'm not sugarcoating it. Believe what you want, but at least read up, from an UNBIASED source, on topics like this before you bash on them. I read the bible. I do not agree with it. But, at least I can say I read the entire damn thing, and not look like an idiot when I say "LOL i dun liek ur belifs", unlike how most Christians I've encountered are when they ask me why I'm in the Church of Satan, (I'm not, but I have friends who are, and READ ON IT, not from your bible, or religious newspapers or shows, before you give me the evil eye here), when I'm wearing my pentacle and triple moon necklaces.

Back on topic, I DO believe in creation, to an extent. Where did the first cell come from? As a (Christian, mind you, friend) put it, "rock + rock =/= cell". I do believe the universal force that we personify as god gave us, basically, a little nudge out of the door. Natural selection took over the rest. I believe the Lord and Lady just leave us to our own devices. I believe they won't smite me to eternal damnation just because I won't give them an ego boost.

Oh well, I'm out of rant fuel right now. If you didn't read any of that, go to...

http://www.religioustolerance.org

It's unbiased, true, open, and my own favourite website. Read it. Learn it. Think before you speak. I may have read your post wrong, but it honestly sounded like you were simply bashing Darwin's theories instead of helping your own argument.

/sigh

[wraith89]

Oh, wow. I hate to be rude, m'dear, but there are FAR more creation myths than the bible and Darwin, who wasn't even famous for "creation". Personally, I believe there is a god, yes, but not your god. This is going to come off mean, but I'm not sugarcoating it.

The funny thing is, the Creation story from the Bible sounds more plausible than the others. Yes, there are many creation myths, but have you read the others? Like how the Mesopotamian one has two mortal gods fighting each other and one was killed and his eyes bled the Tigris and the Euphrates. With all these myths around, you do realize that it does have a common source from a story, right? The Biblical account does not have these outlandish claims that the other stories provide and therefore seems to be the root of them all. The Mesopotamian culture is recorded in the Bible... and not exactly on a good note :-/

If you look at Darwin's theory, there are problems in it. Darwinism in itself is religion. You have the god "time" working through everything and changing rocks into dogs and the goddess "nature" selecting who is fit and who isn't. Honestly, I think schools should stop brainwashing kids with Darwinism when it in itself has not been proven. Why do people "believe" in evolution instead of stating it is truly a fact? To me, evolution really sounds like a glorified Gladiator's Game that took place in BILLIONS of years. It's simply a fairy tale for biologists... who like to camouflage the words "Once upon a time" into "billions of years". So they believe if you kiss a frog and wait a billion of years, the frog will become a prince... just beautiful. That comparison sounds ridiculous, but it actually does parallel what the actual belief is saying.

God might be real. God might be not. I do not say "he", because that would imply I follow your religion. And to be perfectly honest, I did work at a day-care in a pentecostal church, and I think most churches brainwash their kids. I'm pagan, and by the grace of the Lord and Lady the pastor didn't find out for a time, and I was allowed to work there. What they spoon fed to those kids was horrible. Everything was literally retold to make Darwin as a blasphemer and liar, without even telling them about him. They said, "Jesus is good, Darwin will make you go to hell." And even went so far as to tell them to follow the bible WORD FOR WORD. These aren't really even kids, they're all just two years younger than me. When they found out I was a pagan, (my pentacle fell out of my shirt one day), I honestly and truly was scared they would burn or stone me. I'm not saying all followers of Christianity are like that, Goddess, no, but my experiences were bad enough to label most of them as psychopaths. I rambled a bit there, but you do get my point. This might be a generalization, but most conservative religious people see the world as black and white. If you think, even for a MOMENT that this might all be a ploy and scam, you are shunned from neighborhoods, communities, and even families. My grandmother and I haven't said a word to each other in over a year, because of her being so narrow minded.

What if it was you who was narrow minded? Believe in what you will... and yes, being a conservative, I do see things as black and white... I see very little room for greys in objective ideas although greys do exist in subjective areas. Truth itself must be objective; it is not subjective. I don't agree with pushing your ideas unto others, but if you earnestly seek the truth, you WILL find it... but don't follow a path just because it is to your liking. Sometimes, the truth is not what it seems to be. People bend the truth and say it is relative, but that destroys the very essence of truth. Bad experiences from people shouldn't deter you from the truth. I'll tell you straight up... personally, I HATE CHURCH PEOPLE... VERY MUCH. Many of them just seem to be lukewarm... they don't seem to have faith strong enough to show you that they're Christian at all. Many think it is just a social event and whatnot... and the corruption that seeped into the churches has become too strong. But does that stop me from my actual faith? I'm curious to know how you became a pagan, maybe you ought to say that someplace.

Please, for the love of humanity, broaden your horizons. Read the Qur'an. I did. Read the Vedas, Tantras, Puranas, and Epicas. I did. Read something other than what the bible or your pastor gives you. Like I said, I'm not sugarcoating it. Believe what you want, but at least read up, from an UNBIASED source, on topics like this before you bash on them. I read the bible. I do not agree with it. But, at least I can say I read the entire **** thing, and not look like an idiot when I say "LOL i dun liek ur belifs", unlike how most Christians I've encountered are when they ask me why I'm in the Church of Satan, (I'm not, but I have friends who are, and READ ON IT, not from your bible, or religious newspapers or shows, before you give me the evil eye here), when I'm wearing my pentacle and triple moon necklaces.

Believe me, I read myths and other religious texts for fun... but none of them compare with the Bible... from what I've been reading, the Bible is unique. BTW are you a Wiccan or something? I know Wiccans are NOT Satanists, don't worry, but I still need to study what your belief is about before saying anything. I do know Hindus believe that all paths lead to one... and what many of these religious beliefs are teaching. I am NOT ignorant of other belief systems. I don't need to go on to say what the Qu'ran is actually promoting... because that would go off topic. Keep this topic to be about creationism vs evolution.

Back on topic, I DO believe in creation, to an extent. Where did the first cell come from? As a (Christian, mind you, friend) put it, "rock + rock =/= cell". I do believe the universal force that we personify as god gave us, basically, a little nudge out of the door. Natural selection took over the rest. I believe the Lord and Lady just leave us to our own devices. I believe they won't smite me to eternal damnation just because I won't give them an ego boost.

Oh well, I'm out of rant fuel right now. If you didn't read any of that, go to...

http://www.religioustolerance.org

It's unbiased, true, open, and my own favourite website. Read it. Learn it. Think before you speak. I may have read your post wrong, but it honestly sounded like you were simply bashing Darwin's theories instead of helping your own argument.

If crevolution is how the world started out as, I would never believe in such an evil God. Even if He did exist, I would be a rebel against Him. Fortunately, the God I believe in is an absolute being, flawless in every way, and therefore would not employ the evil Roman gladiator system that evolution seems to imply. Crevolution is just another way to say Deism.

More New Age philosophy... *sigh* unfortunately, truth itself is intolerant; it is absolute. There's no way easy way out of everything... the very belief of tolerance and that all paths lead to one just sounds spurious. Call me intolerant, but truth itself needs to be narrow in order to maintain its nature as... well, being the truth. Don't try to teach tolerance here though... yes, we can respect each other for what we all believe in, but there is no way the ecumenical movement will ever work out. All religions are radically different in every way... you simply cannot combine them and say they all lead to the same path.

There, I guess that's it for my ranting...

[kuoleva]

The funny thing is, the Creation story from the Bible sounds more plausible than the others. Yes, there are many creation myths, but have you read the others? Like how the Mesopotamian one has two mortal gods fighting each other and one was killed and his eyes bled the Tigris and the Euphrates. With all these myths around, you do realize that it does have a common source from a story, right? The Biblical account does not have these outlandish claims that the other stories provide and therefore seems to be the root of them all. The Mesopotamian culture is recorded in the Bible... and not exactly on a good note :-/

If you look at Darwin's theory, there are problems in it. Darwinism in itself is religion. You have the god "time" working through everything and changing rocks into dogs and the goddess "nature" selecting who is fit and who isn't. Honestly, I think schools should stop brainwashing kids with Darwinism when it in itself has not been proven. Why do people "believe" in evolution instead of stating it is truly a fact? To me, evolution really sounds like a glorified Gladiator's Game that took place in BILLIONS of years. It's simply a fairy tale for biologists... who like to camouflage the words "Once upon a time" into "billions of years". So they believe if you kiss a frog and wait a billion of years, the frog will become a prince... just beautiful. That comparison sounds ridiculous, but it actually does parallel what the actual belief is saying.

What if it was you who was narrow minded? Believe in what you will... and yes, being a conservative, I do see things as black and white... I see very little room for greys in objective ideas although greys do exist in subjective areas. Truth itself must be objective; it is not subjective. I don't agree with pushing your ideas unto others, but if you earnestly seek the truth, you WILL find it... but don't follow a path just because it is to your liking. Sometimes, the truth is not what it seems to be. People bend the truth and say it is relative, but that destroys the very essence of truth. Bad experiences from people shouldn't deter you from the truth. I'll tell you straight up... personally, I HATE CHURCH PEOPLE... VERY MUCH. Many of them just seem to be lukewarm... they don't seem to have faith strong enough to show you that they're Christian at all. Many think it is just a social event and whatnot... and the corruption that seeped into the churches has become too strong. But does that stop me from my actual faith? I'm curious to know how you became a pagan, maybe you ought to say that someplace.

Believe me, I read myths and other religious texts for fun... but none of them compare with the Bible... from what I've been reading, the Bible is unique. BTW are you a Wiccan or something? I know Wiccans are NOT Satanists, don't worry, but I still need to study what your belief is about before saying anything. I do know Hindus believe that all paths lead to one... and what many of these religious beliefs are teaching. I am NOT ignorant of other belief systems. I don't need to go on to say what the Qu'ran is actually promoting... because that would go off topic. Keep this topic to be about creationism vs evolution.

If crevolution is how the world started out as, I would never believe in such an evil God. Even if He did exist, I would be a rebel against Him. Fortunately, the God I believe in is an absolute being, flawless in every way, and therefore would not employ the evil Roman gladiator system that evolution seems to imply. Crevolution is just another way to say Deism.

More New Age philosophy... *sigh* unfortunately, truth itself is intolerant; it is absolute. There's no way easy way out of everything... the very belief of tolerance and that all paths lead to one just sounds spurious. Call me intolerant, but truth itself needs to be narrow in order to maintain its nature as... well, being the truth. Don't try to teach tolerance here though... yes, we can respect each other for what we all believe in, but there is no way the ecumenical movement will ever work out. All religions are radically different in every way... you simply cannot combine them and say they all lead to the same path.

There, I guess that's it for my ranting...

True, true. I do applaud you, however, for sticking true to your faith through all the idiots making you look insane.

Darwinism can be considered a religion, indeed. I believe schools should teach kids about different world religions, not as right or wrong, but simply as a possibility. In all, true honesty, Darwins theory of evolution is not something I really believe in. I do believe that we did get stronger and smarter, as you can see quite obviously, and like you said, it is a bit of a gladiator tournament. Yet, as much of a hippie as I am, I think that's what life really is. A gladiator tournament. We are our own demise. No devil poking people and saying "hey, you should kill this guy".

Oh, dear, the devil. How I hate that concept. Everyone can be both "good" and "evil", the very definitions of which are subjective. I believe that we are all "grey matter". What side we choose to show the most defines us. I'm naturally a good-natured person. I'm probably one of the kindest people you'd ever meet, and people have told me so. I say this not to brag, but to point out I have an evil side, I just choose to keep it hidden, for the most part. But, that doesn't mean it's not there. I'm bisexual. I'm not really afraid to admit it. I believe love cannot be limited by gender. If one day I woke up and I was in love with one of my best (girl) friends, I'd be okay with it, because I don't believe sexual preference can be defined as "good" or "bad". I know I probably don't make a lot of sense, but what I'm trying to say is that there aren't any absolutes. As much as people try to deny it, I have yet to meet anyone that hasn't ever questioned themselves or their beliefs.

As for considering myself narrow-minded, of course I have. I accepted my family's beliefs. I'm fine with it. They, however, do not accept mine. I guess it's always going to be like that. That is why I consider them to be narrow minded. I'm sure they think the same of me. I'll use social circles to explain it.

The "goth kids" will always think they're better because the other cliques are stupid.

Replace "goth kids" with any other type of clique. It's true. You can't deny it. I've hung out with the "preps". They make fun of the "emos". Vice versa.

As for me being Wiccan, no, I don't exactly consider myself part of that branch of NeoPaganism. If you want, I can explain why I believe the way I do, what I believe, and how I came to believe it. It digs pretty deep into my personal life, though. It's not that I have a problem with talking about it, it's just that I'm sure you don't want to hear it. It's one of those tl;dr things.

Edited May 4, 2009 by kuoleva
I fail at grammar. D: >.<

[Okami]

I believe wholeheartedly in the truth of Genesis.

This is not simply some religion for me. In fact, I don't follow a religion. I am a Christ-follower, a Christian as they may call them, in a very personal, very spiritual sense. It is my being and my everything.

This thing I have with God, it's a relationship. A real, true and powerful, intimate love relationship. Think of a newlywed man and woman, the passion they feel for each other and the zeal they have for life. That is me to my Lord and Saviour, Jesus.

He was this guy who healed broken lives, and I have felt this healing in my life. He humbly laid His life down, and gave Himself to men to die an excruciating death on a Roman cross. And then, three days later, rose. Conquering death. He proved to even His own doubting disciples who He was, once again. Amazing.

That is Genesis. Birth. Death. Restoration.

God said let there be light, and there was light. Universe. One spoke word.

"Uni" = One and "Verse" = spoken word.

That is what I simply believe, nothing less. The signs are everywhere, His fingerprints detailed in our very blood. Nothing anyone could ever say will change this for me, because I simply know it is true, it screams it in my heart and in my mind. There's no going back. I am His. :]

[wraith89]

I believe wholeheartedly in the truth of Genesis.

This is not simply some religion for me. In fact, I don't follow a religion. I am a Christ-follower, a Christian as they may call them, in a very personal, very spiritual sense. It is my being and my everything.

This thing I have with God, it's a relationship. A real, true and powerful, intimate love relationship. Think of a newlywed man and woman, the passion they feel for each other and the zeal they have for life. That is me to my Lord and Saviour, Jesus.

He was this guy who healed broken lives, and I have felt this healing in my life. He humbly laid His life down, and gave Himself to men to die an excruciating death on a Roman cross. And then, three days later, rose. Conquering death. He proved to even His own doubting disciples who He was, once again. Amazing.

That is Genesis. Birth. Death. Restoration.

God said let there be light, and there was light. Universe. One spoke word. "Uni" = One and "Verse" = spoken word.

That is what I simply believe, nothing less. The signs are everywhere, His fingerprints detailed in our very blood. Nothing anyone could ever say will change this for me, because I simply know it is true, it screams it in my heart and in my mind. There's no going back. I am His. :]

:eek: Beautiful :eek:

That's very true. Christianity is not a religion. God is the very enemy of religion... for He is absolute. Therefore He demands the truth; the unadulterated whole truth. He IS the Truth (with the capital T mind you). Christianity itself is a relationship with God Himself. I see no other belief system that allows man to have personal relationship with the Creator of the world.

So people always ask me if God wanted a relationship with man, why didn't He make us love Him? The answer is simple: love itself is a choice: you cannot make people love someone. So God gave you a way through Christ... you either choose to accept and love Him... or reject Him. That's the beauty of free will.

As for me, yes, I believe in a literal 6 day creation and a ~ 6000 year old Earth. Going to a pro-evolution college, I'm always ridiculed for my stance. Blah, doesn't matter. Nothing's changing my stance... because this world has nothing for me.

[Greencat]

I thought Darwin's Theory was the Theory of Evolution and Selective Breeding? ?

[wraith89]

I thought Darwin's Theory was the Theory of Evolution and Selective Breeding? ?

Yes, it is the Theory of Evolution stemming off his book: The Origin of Species. The full title is: On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life

[Akaria]

Creation of the universe?

Numbers, probability, time, various electrons knocking into the other to be very vague.

That's my thoughts anyway.

[wraith89]

Creation of the universe?

Numbers, probability, time, various electrons knocking into the other to be very vague.

That's my thoughts anyway.

And all that was supposed to come out of nothing? An absolute must have been there from the start for something to happen.

Universe = Uni + Verse = One + Word

"In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth"

[kuoleva]

I'd kind of like to add on to what I've said before.

Kind of like what Okami said, I have a relationship with the God and Goddess.

But, I do not feel they needed to show me that with a feat like what Christ did. They love me. I know that. The Lord and Lady are me. Wraith, what you said about no other belief system allowing you to have a personal connection with a creator is far from the truth. Most of my time not spent at school or the computer is outside, sitting in my favourite tree, simply connecting to the God and Goddess. I feel that this world, this universe, was enough of a testament of love from them. There is beauty in everything, and there also is salvation. You do not have to accept a man who simply could just have been that, a man, whose story was poorly translated, and, well, twisted, to find love and peace. Knowledge is beautiful. There is beauty in love, trust, and hope, but also in darkness and despair. Simply letting us see the beauty that they created is enough love. If we misbehave, well, they love us, don't they? No need to get all pissy and chuck us in a lake of fire before we even know what we did wrong, and then learn and better ourselves.

And the thing about free will, I do agree on one point, you cannot force love. As such, it's why I do not understand the concept of hell, and thus a large part of the bible's message. Love is... Well, love. It's unconditional. To me, the love of the Christian god is conditional, meaning you have to worship him to get into heaven. If you don't, you're going to hell. I can't see a benevolent creator saying, "hay, i luf u guaise, but imma send u 4 teh eternal torturez cuz u no praise me". It's like taking a flock of sheep, and putting them in a cage. Then, you open the cage, and tell them, "you guys have free will now!" and zapping the sheep who decide to do their own thing.

And the whole "Eve ate the apple of truth" thing, it makes me facepalm. Why would god be so afraid of people having knowledge? Is he really that cruel that he would have us blindly follow him? If something went wrong, which if he were omniscient he'd have known free will wasn't a good idea, couldn't he just press his reset button? Why give us powers in the name of love, and then damn us for eternity if we use them? Seriously. Love. I don't really want to be created by a jealous god who feels the need to torture and kill those who don't follow his lifestyle.

I'm not trying to hate on your beliefs, but that's how I see it. If you could enlighten me, that'd be great.

Edited May 4, 2009 by kuoleva
I worded it wrong. D:

[Aqueel]

I'm not going to post an opinion yet, because my opinion rapidly changes.

I will say that I'm very impressed with the answers given though Usually you'd expect threads like this to devolve into flame wars, but all the answers so far have been mature - and have given me things to ponder about.

[Zafur]

Hmm... I'm kind of unsure why people have to believe in only a Religion. Or only think that Darwinism is fact. Sorry for the messy post in advance.><

I believe in evolution. Breeding dogs from wolves, for example, is enough fact for me. Being able to create your own breeds over the years is a form of evolution, only controlled, selective, and within a much shorter time. Evolution doesn't always mean T-Rex to birds. It can be small things too. I was brought up as a Christian, however, so I believe God, or well, whatever being(s) in control of the universe decided to make evolution happen. (I'm actually in a state of reaffirming my beliefs a bit for my religion. I find other religions quite nice and tend to mismatch them together at times.) That's it. Belief in both. God makes evolution happen. The order in the Bible of Earth's creation coincides perfectly with science's theories, if you ignore the timestamps. (Besides, how exactly was the universe/world created in 6/7 days when the current solar system we use for time didn't exist yet? Unless I'm mistaken about that, a bit lazy to check at the moment.)

And to the person who said that you would refuse to believe in a God so evil as to make life and evolution a big drawn out gladiator game... Has God not made out lives a bet to the Devil? God basically said

"Hey, I betchu I'll get more followers at Judgment. You get to tempt them, and I'll try to keep them in line. If they lose and follow you, they get tortured forever."

"You're on!"

Has God not punished us severely, Noah's Ark, etc? If you believe in the Bible 100%, has it not preached hate? Pro-slavery, for one... And if you want to follow some of present day translations, encourages hate against homosexuals. I thought God was all about love?

I do not believe the Bible was meant to be taken 100% literally. I go to a Catholic school, and they teach that some things were exaggerated for emphasis, and are not to be taken literally, especially for historical happenings, but to look for the deeper meaning, at times...

I'm definitely not preaching my beliefs as proof, but I firmly believe in evolution, at least, God helping the universe start out or not. There really is just so much evidence.

Flying Spaghetti Monster, anyone?

[darklord]

ok Darwinism is not a religion if it was i would go crazy and to something that someone said you can make someone fall in love you just need a drug that is in the black market and someone said turn rocks to dogs that thats just weird you evolve when you species is in trouble or running out of food and further more tests have been done on yeast and they evolved to stop the thereat and what about black people they evolved to stop skin cancer from getting sun burned

[Varna]

I choose to believe that I can never trust the word of man on a subject as important as this. Anything that has ever been recorded and passed down, whether through scripture or through word of mouth, has the possibility of being a complete and utter lie.

This isn't to say I don't suspect any sort of 'supernatural' activity in the universe, for what it's worth. There may very well be all sorts of things beyond what our senses can tell us. I know only this - I think, therefore I am.

[Okami]

And the thing about free will, I do agree on one point, you cannot force love. As such, it's why I do not understand the concept of hell, and thus a large part of the bible's message. Love is... Well, love. It's unconditional. To me, the love of the Christian god is conditional, meaning you have to worship him to get into heaven. If you don't, you're going to hell. I can't see a benevolent creator saying, "hay, i luf u guaise, but imma send u 4 teh eternal torturez cuz u no praise me". It's like taking a flock of sheep, and putting them in a cage. Then, you open the cage, and tell them, "you guys have free will now!" and zapping the sheep who decide to do their own thing.

I'm not trying to hate on your beliefs, but that's how I see it. If you could enlighten me, that'd be great.

I understand how you see this, because I struggled throughout my childhood trying to see how a loving God could send even a technically 'good' person to hell...And I'm really sorry if I word this wrong. To me, God does not and HAS NEVER sent anyone to hell. People send themselves. Jesus said if you deny yourself and pick up your cross and follow Him, then they shall be saved.

He's not some attention-seeking God (I'm thinking of Baal here) just a man who came to show Himself that He understands our human condition and pain...He could have been born a rich king. But no, they didn't even have a place in the inn to shelter Mary when she gave birth. No, he was born in what was probably a cave, placed into a feeding trough. Jesus was escentually born into our modern-day equivelant to poverty.

And I guess what I mean is, when I say that God doesn't send a man to hell....they send themselves. All He asks is for a person to acknowledge that He understands our pain, and that He died and rose to bring us freedom from that pain. When a person refuses to do that...on the day of reckoning, Jesus will look at them and say "Go away, I never knew you." And I can only imagine the look of hurt and sorrow in His eyes when He has to say those words...

The way God works, He loves people unconditionally. He sees us in our pain and moarns with us in our sorrow. He hates seeing us burdened like this and only wishes us the best on our walk on this earth. All He wants is to help us fight, but we need to be able to accept that help. In our pride, however, so few do so. So they struggle and fight all their lives, going nowhere in the process.

It's because there was this angel...His name was Lucifer. He, in his pride, decided he wanted to be better than God. God banished him. Lucifer became a fallen angel along with his followers; when God created man in his own image, Lucifer, now Satan, hated man, because they were in the very image of God, and NOT HIM. He decided he needed to bring them down to his level. Thus, the fall of man when Adam and Eve took of the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That's the way I see it, now. Everything simply returns to the nature of pride.

The fact is, the majority of Christians are hypocrites. I won't deny it for a minute. As my pastor says "Many people get wet..." (meaning baptism) and his point is, there is no change of heart. Baptism is the acceptance of the Holy Spirit into your life to become the helper and counselor, of sorts. But so many people do it in a ritualistic way that the meaning of its symbolism becomes destroyed in the process. (water is almost always a symbol of life, I know this because we're finishing up Huck Finn in one of my classes; it's come up a lot, ok? ) It's rebirth, taking a new self. For anyone born again of Jesus Christ becomes a new creation.

Anyways, sorry if this is too offtopic for anyone. I hope I stated my point clearly enough here =/ Did I help at all, Kuo?

[wraith89]

I'd kind of like to add on to what I've said before.

Kind of like what Okami said, I have a relationship with the God and Goddess.

But, I do not feel they needed to show me that with a feat like what Christ did. They love me. I know that. The Lord and Lady are me. Wraith, what you said about no other belief system allowing you to have a personal connection with a creator is far from the truth.

Most of my time not spent at school or the computer is outside, sitting in my favourite tree, simply connecting to the God and Goddess. I feel that this world, this universe, was enough of a testament of love from them. There is beauty in everything, and there also is salvation. You do not have to accept a man who simply could just have been that, a man, whose story was poorly translated, and, well, twisted, to find love and peace. Knowledge is beautiful. There is beauty in love, trust, and hope, but also in darkness and despair. Simply letting us see the beauty that they created is enough love. If we misbehave, well, they love us, don't they? No need to get all pissy and chuck us in a lake of fire before we even know what we did wrong, and then learn and better ourselves.

Sorry for answering so late, but I really hate my bio lab

So how is your relationship with your god and goddess going then? If you ask me, from what I've seen, these religions may have a deity or deities of some kind, but for the most part, they are unknowable and unreachable... you may KNOW ABOUT your supreme being, but do you PERSONALLY know him/her? The Hindus have many gods and goddesses... but many does not always equal good. Do they personally know them? They believe in Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver and Shiva the Destroyer (their own trinity) but they have never went down to earth to tell their people that they love them and they want to have a personal relationship with them. Wouldn't having a relationship with their millions of gods (and counting) be just ridiculous? The very nature of God calls for an absolute. And then we have Islam... where we read about Allah giving these ridiculous commands and to slay the infidels and whatnot, but there's this one illiterate prophet Muhammad telling them from behind the curtains, saying he got his inspiration from Gabriel the angel. I would listen to God directly rather than have a man tell me his own experiences in a cave being taught questionable political power hungry plans to take over the world in the name of religion... all instructed from the man behind the curtains. Funny thing is, half these Muslims usually don't know what they're uttering in Arabic when they pray to Allah. And these people have a relationship with God? My God loves to hear the prayers of His people and answers them in His time. His plans are perfect and true, and did something 2000 years ago to prove that He indeed did care for us, which I'll get to in a second... so let me ask you again... do they really know their supreme being? Do(es) t(he)y respond back?

And the thing about free will, I do agree on one point, you cannot force love. As such, it's why I do not understand the concept of hell, and thus a large part of the bible's message. Love is... Well, love. It's unconditional. To me, the love of the Christian god is conditional, meaning you have to worship him to get into heaven. If you don't, you're going to hell. I can't see a benevolent creator saying, "hay, i luf u guaise, but imma send u 4 teh eternal torturez cuz u no praise me". It's like taking a flock of sheep, and putting them in a cage. Then, you open the cage, and tell them, "you guys have free will now!" and zapping the sheep who decide to do their own thing.

And the whole "Eve ate the apple of truth" thing, it makes me facepalm. Why would god be so afraid of people having knowledge? Is he really that cruel that he would have us blindly follow him? If something went wrong, which if he were omniscient he'd have known free will wasn't a good idea, couldn't he just press his reset button? Why give us powers in the name of love, and then damn us for eternity if we use them? Seriously. Love. I don't really want to be created by a jealous god who feels the need to torture and kill those who don't follow his lifestyle.

I'm not trying to hate on your beliefs, but that's how I see it. If you could enlighten me, that'd be great.

I see where you are confused... but of course, God did not create robots. You as well as I both know that we are not righteous. NONE of us (Romans 3:10). Everyone deserves hell... we are flawed, corrupt, rude, unloving, selfish... and that's not even half of what we are. We are just screwed up... very hypocritical. It's our fault that we're all going to hell... and we can't save ourselves from it even if we tried to by ourselves. We are ALL responsible for our sins... and EVERY sin we commit will kick back on us eventually. You thought you got away with it? Heh heh... I'm afraid not. Even Hinduism has a similar concept with karma... we all know this innately.

Fortunately for us, God has made a way for everyone to have the potential to be saved. Yes, God has sent His only begotten Son, so that ALL may be saved for those who believe in Him. That's right, ANYONE can be saved... but that's only if they simply believe. But being a Christian means you will be hated by this world... because you follow Jesus. Trust me, I KNOW how it's like. So you have committed terrible crimes and wish to be pardoned... and when you're being offered a lawyer to pardon you... and you refuse... what good is that? God is a just God... so He has NO OTHER CHOICE BUT to send you to hell. I deserve hell. You deserve hell. We all deserve it. You are being sent to hell because of YOUR own sins and YOUR own refusal of salvation. Salvation is by grace alone... and God offered you a way... it's not too late yet! God has no favorites... just because you did all these good deeds... or even if you went to church... or read the Bible, it's not going to matter. You are STILL responsible for your sins. You can ONLY be allowed into heaven if you accept God's precious gift to this world: Jesus Christ. For the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23)... and hey, we all sinned, right? Hell could not contain Jesus because He was sinless and perfect. God coming down as a human to die for OUR sins was His greatest love act of all... He took the pain and suffering WE DESERVE... just to save His precious creations. And yet... all we need to do is believe... but why can't people see that? It breaks my heart to no end.

I will share with you about the deception of Lucifer after... it's going to be a LONG topic, but he is the reason why we're all in this mess. Remind me to tell you about Lucifer... because I want to write an article about that in my upcoming website. He fell from heaven (Isaiah 14:12) just because of his pride... he wanted to be LIKE the most high... and unfortunately, he is now the god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4). The true God of this world is Jesus, and he will return. Satan's pride has led him to his downfall even when he was the most precious cherub of God (Ezekiel 28:11-19). His pride is what let to his downfall... and he subtly tried to pass on that sin to Eve when he whispered to Eve "Ye shall be like gods" when she eats the fruit (Genesis 3:5). Lucifer... the rebel. He really wasn't lying there... but he did twist the truth. You will be like god if you eat... you will KNOW good and evil. God KNOWS good and evil, HE KNOWS EVERYTHING... but what differentiates us with God is that we can't make the same decisions God makes. God makes all the right decisions for He is absolute. We, however, know what's right and wrong, but we always choose the wrong path because we can't always make the right choice. We are sinners by default... so of course we make the wrong decisions. But if you trust in God and ask Him for His advice, He will try to get you to the right path. All you need to do is listen. We will always fall short, guaranteed, but it's better than consciously making your life a mess. We have a free will, yes, and we can alter our choices and whatnot. But trying to alter the consequences is a big no-no; you NEVER go up there. Ever.

My God is of unconditional love (Agape)... or else He isn't God. Remember God must be absolute to be God... or else He isn't God. To be good, He must be ALL good. One little bit of bad goes on Him, then He is not good, and therefore isn't God. He must always tell truth, for if truth is tainted with a SMALL lie, it becomes a lie in itself. The nature of good and truth must be absolute... and if God does not follow any of those criteria, He is NOT God. However, my God has never failed... and never will. He is God... He is the absolute and for being all good, He must therefore love all good and hate all evil. The difference between us fallible humans and God is this: He loves good as much as He hates evil, while we love good and endorse evil at the same time. We cannot hate evil as much as God ever will... therefore we are subject to commit sins and will remain fallible: we are NOT gods.

The fact is, the majority of Christians are hypocrites. I won't deny it for a minute. As my pastor says "Many people get wet..." (meaning baptism) and his point is, there is no change of heart. Baptism is the acceptance of the Holy Spirit into your life to become the helper and counselor, of sorts. But so many people do it in a ritualistic way that the meaning of its symbolism becomes destroyed in the process. (water is almost always a symbol of life, I know this because we're finishing up Huck Finn in one of my classes; it's come up a lot, ok? ) It's rebirth, taking a new self. For anyone born again of Jesus Christ becomes a new creation.

Exactly how I feel... and the fact modern Bibles omit the MOST IMPORTANT part of the baptism part or cast doubt on it (see if Acts 8:37 is in your Bible or not) makes me wonder if this apostate age will ever get it right :-/

We live in the Laodicean Church times... it's going to be over soon.

And Zafur, since this topic is about creationism vs evolution, I will get to you later. I just can't seem to answer things all the time right now. I have to take a break from all this... I've been debating with people regarding these topics for so long... X_X

And yikes! Look at the time! I must head to my laboratory... I'll see you all later! @_@

[kuoleva]

You want to know how my relationship is going? Sure.

It's beyond amazing. Yes, we have many gods. But, most of us have a matron/patron god or goddess. Mine is Nyx, night personified, daughter of Chaos. My faith in her has saved me from more things than I can count. I KNOW she loves me. There didn't need to be a show, just the beauty in this world is enough. I know there are many other gods and goddesses, I simply put most of my love and trust in her. And it is the most wonderful feeling I could ever have.

I used to be Christian. I used to think god loved me. That never stopped me from swallowing that bottle of pills. THAT was a god I never felt close to. I was paranoid, afraid if I screwed up, he would get pissy and burn me in a lake of fire. Then, one summer, I just cried. For two entire months, I cried. Nothing but. I thought god hated me because my friends were Satanists and pagans. I thought he hated me because I did something wrong. I wondered why he even bothered with this world if he were just going to burn it at the revelation. After I finished my crying, and got out of the mental ward, I went outside and looked at the stars. Before, I figured being atheist would be easier, no god to worry about. When I looked into the sky, I just knew something was out there. (Here comes me sounding crazy...) I laid in the grass and closed my eyes. I heard a voice, a woman's voice. It sounded familiar, like I'd heard it a long time ago. I also saw her, in a blurry vision. I knew then I was here for a reason. I can't remember what she said, but I do remember the name "Nyx" or as I thought it was spelled, "Nix". I looked it up on the internet, and the paintings I found were almost exactly like the woman in my vision. I also found a quote I would like to get tattooed somewhere on me.

"If you take [a copy of] the Christian Bible and put it out in the wind and the rain, soon the paper on which the words are printed will disintegrate and the words will be gone. Our bible IS the wind and the rain." Herbalist Carol McGrath as told to her by a Native-American woman.

That quote rang so true to me, it almost hurt. God is... God. Humans are unreliable. The last thing I want to turn to for the word of god is a book written by humans. Like I said, I believe the love of the Lord and Lady is best spread in things untouched by humans. I don't need a book to tell me my god and goddess love me.

To the Lucifer thing, again, why is god so freaking jealous? I mean, come on, he's GOD. He has god powers. If he has to worry about being taken over by his own creation, he's pretty pathetic. Couldn't he just give Lucifer a slap on the wrist? I've been told there is only love and happiness in heaven, that somehow god takes away the pain. First off, that's hardly possible. Without hate, there is no love. Without war, there is no peace. Secondly, couldn't he just use the ability to make us like that on Lucifer? Or the entire world? Wait, that would be taking away free will, which he seems to do in heaven. If there is free will, there will be pain, hate, anger, loneliness, and other unsavory emotions. I've been told those things will be "taken off the menu" in heaven. Again, that would be taking away free will. Then why were we given it in the first place? I'd insert my sheep analogy in here again, but my hand is cramping.

Also, I believe in reincarnation. I do NOT believe the actions and mistakes made in one lifetime are enough to judge the worth of a soul. Which brings me back to the "love me or die" concept of the Christian god. You said it's free will, all we have to do is believe. What if I would rather praise a loving goddess than an angry, jealous god? What if I don't trust words written by humans? Will I burn because of that? Seriously? I believe my Lord and Lady know that love is love, no matter if it's directed at Allah, Buddha, Krishna, Kali, Freyja, Loki, Arduinna, Nyx, Zeus, Aphrodite... You get my point.

And don't get me started on the whole "my god is better than your god" crap most Christians pull on me.

[Okami]

God never stopped me from taking a razorblade to my wrists.

It's called life, we have to learn to deal with it. Sometimes we deal with it in the wrong ways, obviously.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Okami
Clarifying

[wraith89]

I used to be Christian. I used to think god loved me. That never stopped me from swallowing that bottle of pills. THAT was a god I never felt close to. I was paranoid, afraid if I screwed up, he would get pissy and burn me in a lake of fire.

I don't know what God you're talking about, but that is NOT the God that I know :-/

And I don't believe people used to be a Christian. If you were really a Christian then you would have never left that faith, I'm sure.

As for the swallowing the bottle of pills... we all make stupid choices... but would you blame God for that? He's not stopping you from anything if you're intending on doing so anyways. He could... but He doesn't.

To the Lucifer thing, again, why is god so freaking jealous? I mean, come on, he's GOD. He has god powers. If he has to worry about being taken over by his own creation, he's pretty pathetic. Couldn't he just give Lucifer a slap on the wrist? I've been told there is only love and happiness in heaven, that somehow god takes away the pain. First off, that's hardly possible. Without hate, there is no love. Without war, there is no peace. Secondly, couldn't he just use the ability to make us like that on Lucifer? Or the entire world? Wait, that would be taking away free will, which he seems to do in heaven. If there is free will, there will be pain, hate, anger, loneliness, and other unsavory emotions. I've been told those things will be "taken off the menu" in heaven. Again, that would be taking away free will. Then why were we given it in the first place? I'd insert my sheep analogy in here again, but my hand is cramping.

Angels are completely different creatures from humans. I don't have all the answers, but I believe angels, although more powerful than we are, are more fragile in a way that once they make a mistake, they can NEVER correct it (hence fallen angels).

The very definition of heaven is perfection... why couldn't such a place exist? Obviously not here in this world... but to get there, you have to earn it. But since we all fall short, we depend on the one opportunity God gave us to reach there... it's only a matter of our choice to accept that.

Yes, God could have made everything just as perfect as heaven is, but then again, would we learn anything like that? EVERYTHING happens for a reason, don't forget. There are NO accidents, even if it seems like it is. You only have the power to make a choice, but you can never change the consequences. God knows what He is doing... we just don't see it the way He does (Isaiah 55:8). If He seeks a genuine relationship, there needs to be sacrifices. We CHOOSE to love, He won't ever MAKE us love Him. If you hate Him so much then do as you will... but that doesn't mean it's right. Think about it.

Also, I believe in reincarnation. I do NOT believe the actions and mistakes made in one lifetime are enough to judge the worth of a soul. Which brings me back to the "love me or die" concept of the Christian god. You said it's free will, all we have to do is believe. What if I would rather praise a loving goddess than an angry, jealous god? What if I don't trust words written by humans? Will I burn because of that? Seriously? I believe my Lord and Lady know that love is love, no matter if it's directed at Allah, Buddha, Krishna, Kali, Freyja, Loki, Arduinna, Nyx, Zeus, Aphrodite... You get my point.

The Bible begs to differ; 2 Timothy 3:16 says these are the Words of God... preserved throughout the years. I would love to show you that these words are indeed inspired by the living God, but not right now.

And again, you put God in a negative light by saying He is an angry and jealous God... but you haven't seen the other facet. What seems to be evil is actually His love... perhaps you don't realize it.

Reincarnation? :eek: Why would anyone want to live in this disgusting world again? You've seen this world once... you don't like it... why live here again? :-/

Allah? The moon god of war and belligerence? Loki? The god of mischief? Zeus? The womanizer? Aphrodite? The seductive promiscuous lusty girl? I don't know what you're thinking, but if those are my gods, I would just kill myself right now... I can't find any good qualities in them that matches YHWH... they fail in comparison.

Sorry if I went polemic on you but that is what I believe. And this time I tried to make it short so that people would stop giving up reading my entire wall of texts @_@

Let's get back to Creation vs Evolution, not about religion and whatnot