Water Vs Fire!!

[pokemonfan]

yeah, your welcome.

Well, I would do it if I was certain that my opponents highest was infernape and the rest of his/her pokemon are well undertrained. My friend owned my whole team with infernape. I was frustrated because I'd trained really hard for the battle. So if I ever battle him again he better watch out, my jirachi is coming for his monkey.

Not trying to offend you but ninetales, vulpix is way prettier and cuter. It doesn't really matter but ninetales lost beauty big time. (In my opinion) I dont like how mudkip evolves, hideousness is gained and all essence of cuteness is gone.

[Enkidu]

WHOA wait, fire types have just as much "variety" as Water types. There are just LESS fire types. Moltres and Heatran make 2 of the best Toxic/Substitute stallers in the game but at the same time rule offensively as well.

Arcanine can WALL A GYARADOS. <- THATS impressive, even more so for an offensive pokemon thats weak to water. Gyarados's STAB.

Both types are good, the only thing water types have over fire types is a a non Weakness to Earthquake and Neutrality to stealth rock. Simply passing them off as weak because SR ruins them will get your team sweeped by a bellyzard or walled to death by a moltres ( if that same moltres isn't Sweeping through your team because you weren't worried about getting SR down )

Magmortar devastates Bulky offensive types team, and can even learn thunderbolt to cripple most water types that would switch in with his decent special attack. Think of Magmortar like a Slower gengar, with access to a STAB fire attack.

Torkoal? One of the defacto best rapid spinners ( along with Starmie ) in the game, and is the ONLY one who could and still can beat Dusknoir/Dusclops one on one. ( not counting the new rotom formes. )

Houndoom, Typlosion? Versatility is not limited to water types.

[pokemonfan]

Ugh, well Torkoal is a rapid spinner but a good surf would destroy him. Magmortar's thunderbolt would do nothing against marshtomp or quagsire and his fire moves wouldn't be as effective either. As for arcanine, gyarados doesn't have to be in, plus moves like dragon rage can do some significant damage. Gyarados is also a flying type. (this surprises me I thought it would be dragon) Heatran is double the weak against water types because of steel plus fire. However, his ability would cover up his steel type weakness to flames.

You make a good argument however, I still will defend water types. As for houndoom and typhlosion well you got me there but when it comes to palkia and kyogre what do you have to say?

[Enkidu]

Thats the beauty of having type coverage + speed.

Steel is NOT weak to water.

Dragon rage does a LOL 40 damage a hit.

And my pokemon theorymon's were just examples of versatility for fire types. Both types are good, there are just more water types.

[wraith89]

WHOA wait, fire types have just as much "variety" as Water types. There are just LESS fire types. Moltres and Heatran make 2 of the best Toxic/Substitute stallers in the game but at the same time rule offensively as well.

Arcanine can WALL A GYARADOS. <- THATS impressive, even more so for an offensive pokemon thats weak to water. Gyarados's STAB.

Both types are good, the only thing water types have over fire types is a a non Weakness to Earthquake and Neutrality to stealth rock. Simply passing them off as weak because SR ruins them will get your team sweeped by a bellyzard or walled to death by a moltres ( if that same moltres isn't Sweeping through your team because you weren't worried about getting SR down )

Magmortar devastates Bulky offensive types team, and can even learn thunderbolt to cripple most water types that would switch in with his decent special attack. Think of Magmortar like a Slower gengar, with access to a STAB fire attack.

Torkoal? One of the defacto best rapid spinners ( along with Starmie ) in the game, and is the ONLY one who could and still can beat Dusknoir/Dusclops one on one. ( not counting the new rotom formes. )

Houndoom, Typlosion? Versatility is not limited to water types.

Yep, you are absolutely right. I use a bulky Moltres set myself, and he works very well and even walls Heatran (Pressure stalling FTW)

However, I will say that the versatility is very limited somewhat with the Fire types due to the lack of species (water is the most abundant species so it's really unfair). I like Camerupt because he doesn't have to play like a sweeper and can deal with stuff like Raikou and Zapdos.

Arcanine has a BST greater than any non-legendaries except for those BST 600s and Slaking... so of course he can be EV'd to take hits from Gyarados (factoring in Intimidate). However, he's better off as a mixed sweeper, and he'd still be countered by a Mixpert quite easily. Arcanine is versatile, I'll give you that.

Flareon plays defensively (on the special side, of course) because of her lack fo movepool on the physical side.

Houndoom and Typhlosion only do one job... and that's sweeping. They can't ever go for a defensive role... but Typhlosion is only used for his ChoiceScarf'd Eruption as lead... that's about all. Houndoom usually attacks from the special side and uses Nasty Plot SOMETIMES just to power up his moves... but other than that, his use is confined to attacking.

Infernape can attack from both sides of the spectrum but he's still only doing one thing: and that's attacking.

As for those defensive fire types, Magcargo and Torkoal, they're very unfortunate. Defensive fire types just don't match up. Fire should be more offensive... and Torkoal as a rapid spinner is unfortunately VERY SLOW and weak to Stealth Rocks and cannot switch into anything like Earthquake or Stone Edge or even Surf... although his defenses MAY allow him to take a hit or two from the physical side. As for Magcargo, this poor escargo has a 4x weak to Water and Ground. He'd do very good in NU where there are many bugs (but Whiscash still owns him)... and he gets Recover, but unfortunately for that typing, defense doesn't work.

I really didn't mean to say Fire types are not versatile, but all I see from Fire types are the sweeper side of it... because the defensive versions in short of Moltres or Ninetales or Arcanine just doesn't seem to make sense.

Not trying to offend you but ninetales, vulpix is way prettier and cuter. It doesn't really matter but ninetales lost beauty big time. (In my opinion) I dont like how mudkip evolves, hideousness is gained and all essence of cuteness is gone.

Are you kidding me? Ninetales is one of the most beautiful Pokemon there is... sure Vulpix is more cuter, but Ninetales is more... elegant and beautiful. You can't deny that beauty of the kitsune...

Ugh, well Torkoal is a rapid spinner but a good surf would destroy him. Magmortar's thunderbolt would do nothing against marshtomp or quagsire and his fire moves wouldn't be as effective either. As for arcanine, gyarados doesn't have to be in, plus moves like dragon rage can do some significant damage. Gyarados is also a flying type. (this surprises me I thought it would be dragon) Heatran is double the weak against water types because of steel plus fire. However, his ability would cover up his steel type weakness to flames.

No one would switch Torkoal into a Water type... ever. Magmortar still has other ways to deal with Marshtomp or Quagsire (Sunnybeam anyone?) but most Magmortars wouldn't stay in any of those (Marshtomp should be Swampert btw). Poor Magmortar needs a better ability than Flame Body

Dragon Rage = EXACTLY 40 damage... not good for competitive battle.

And that Gyarados is only walled by the rare defensive sets... but Arcanine really can't do much against a Gyarados either barring Thunder Fang. Gyarados can set up with ease (usually the bulkyset) and hit back with strong Waterfalls. This particular Arcanine is weak on the special side though so Mixperts usually do the trick.

Heatran is doubly weak to Ground, not Water. Steel is not weak to water, but water attacks tend to be effective only because not many Steels aside from Dialga or Empoleon resist Water. Heatran is scared of Earthquakes/Earth Powers.

Edited April 29, 2009 by wraith89

[Phreen]

Wow, I really don't know, both sides make exellent comments, hm its also 50/50, well I think I'll choose........

[pokemonfan]

Thats the beauty of having type coverage + speed.

Steel is NOT weak to water.

Dragon rage does a LOL 40 damage a hit.

And my pokemon theorymon's were just examples of versatility for fire types. Both types are good, there are just more water types.

It is too weak to water! BTW dragon rage is consistant that is why i like it. Consistency so you know that it will always work 40 HP damage and you dont have to worry about type advantages.

I also made a typo, it should be swampert.

[wraith89]

It is too weak to water! BTW dragon rage is consistant that is why i like it. Consistency so you know that it will always work 40 HP damage and you dont have to worry about type advantages.

I also made a typo, it should be swampert.

If you want consistency go for Seismic Toss or Night Shade. Otherwise stuff like Sonic Boom and Dragon Rage have no role outside of in-game. They're also banned in Little Cup for being a 100% accurate OHKO moves (at least Dragon Rage is). Plus, consistent =/= best. Consistently doing 0 damage will get you anywhere? Probably not.

Heatran can actually survive even Empoleon's Surfs with a sliver of HP left. Heatran's a legendary, so yeah... that's a good thing. You realize Flareon survives Surfs from stuff like Blastoise pretty well, right? Yeah, Fire types are good in many ways.

Uh oh, I haven't made arguments for water types yet. I shall do so soon

Edited May 1, 2009 by wraith89

[pokemonfan]

Yeah, I would like some water defenders. When it comes to surviving surf, you know, it isn't the top water move. Hydro pump is the normal one but then hydro cannon comes in with more power and accuracy makes it the top of water moves. Plus with a rain dance on, torrent up high because of low HP makes a pokemon knowing this unstoppable practically. I'd like to see a fire type survive that.

I've always liked the move dragon rage ok. So I'm a little bias when it comes to the move's efficiency.

[wraith89]

Yeah, I would like some water defenders. When it comes to surviving surf, you know, it isn't the top water move. Hydro pump is the normal one but then hydro cannon comes in with more power and accuracy makes it the top of water moves. Plus with a rain dance on, torrent up high because of low HP makes a pokemon knowing this unstoppable practically. I'd like to see a fire type survive that.

I've always liked the move dragon rage ok. So I'm a little bias when it comes to the move's efficiency.

Hydro Pump has that accuracy problem. One wrong move, you're dead. Especially against a Heatran, Empoleon would have to face an Earth Power if Hydro Pump misses... and that's never good. Yes, it hits more often than it misses, but the fact that it DOES miss should make you question using it if you are sweeping. I only prefer Surf thanks to its better accuracy and PP.

Nobody uses Hydro Cannon in a serious battle. It's a Water type Hyper Beam, and that recharge turn will cost you your match if used wrong. And you're giving a situation in regarding torrent and rain. What if it was the other way around... if it were sunny?

I know what fire type would survive that: a Magcargo with *gasp* Water Absorb! <--- yeah I know, it's hacked, but -__-

EDIT: Uh oh... I think I argued for fire too much. Now the ratio b/w Fire and Water preferences is 7:6. @_@

[pokemonfan]

Oops, I forgot about the hydro cannon downside. I also, know the other side if it was sunny, ability blaze was activated, and blastburn was used. However, I highly doubt that a fire pokemon can survive a decent surf. Water types rule and I'm surprised fire has the lead as of this post. Fire pokemon, usually, have the same basic concept, hit and die. It is hard for a fire type to maintain either a good defense or special defense stat if it is battling with the purpose of a higher atk or sp. atk stat. So then, if they do hit first and their foe survives, well then they perish. I'm just making a point, if fire types are so good, how come they usually have the same flaw filled tactic? I mean, blazikan and infernape are excellent examples in the speed + a higher atk stat= enemy KO. Water pokemon can survive those hits so clearly fire types have a flaw right there.

[wraith89]

Oops, I forgot about the hydro cannon downside. I also, know the other side if it was sunny, ability blaze was activated, and blastburn was used. However, I highly doubt that a fire pokemon can survive a decent surf. Water types rule and I'm surprised fire has the lead as of this post. Fire pokemon, usually, have the same basic concept, hit and die. It is hard for a fire type to maintain either a good defense or special defense stat if it is battling with the purpose of a higher atk or sp. atk stat. So then, if they do hit first and their foe survives, well then they perish. I'm just making a point, if fire types are so good, how come they usually have the same flaw filled tactic? I mean, blazikan and infernape are excellent examples in the speed + a higher atk stat= enemy KO. Water pokemon can survive those hits so clearly fire types have a flaw right there.

Infernape's Grass Knot says hi. It easily OHKOs Swampert after a single Nasty Plot... and it with Life Orb Milotic and Suicune and Slowbro can also be OHKOd.

Also, I made the point before, but Fire types are also versatile. You just don't notice it, while the general idea is indeed sweep. Sure, Ninetales is one of those bulkier types, but her movepool seems to indicate supporting status sweeper with the new addition of Nasty Plot and all.

Surf doesn't always OHKO fire types. For some bizarre reason, stupid Infernape survived my Surf from Swampert and almost OHKOd my Swampert with Grass Knot (yes, even an Infernape).

This topic is about personal preferences. Since I like to play defensively and like Water types (they're my favorite types), I picked water. But as for the fire types, they match people's tastes so well. Many people like quick sweeping things that are powerful... hence why stuff like Charizard is popular with kids.

[Destati]

Here's the ultimate arguement for water types.

There are 7 Great water types in the OU metagame which consists of 49 Pokemon. Why is water so great?

1) Lack of grass moves. 99% of the time if a Pokemon uses a grass move its going to be an unSTABbed Grass knot. Very few Pokemon learn Grass Knot. There's probably only around 5 on OU that do.

2) Lack of physical electric moves. The strongest physical electric move you'll see is an unSTABbed Thunder Punch. Water types with naturally high defense can shrug this off and heal the damage.

3) Most of the water types have high special defense. The most common anti-water move is a special attack. This is why for a long time Suicune was "OMG NO WEAK!" because of Calm Mind. Sure you could use thunderpunch, but with 100 HP and 115 defense you're only laughing at yourself.

Water types are fearful and powerful. There are 7 OU waters. There are only 2 OU Fires. You can blame water, rock and ground for that.

[RoarOfSpace100]

Fire is my choice (Charizard FTW)

[wraith89]

Here's the ultimate arguement for water types.

There are 7 Great water types in the OU metagame which consists of 49 Pokemon. Why is water so great?

1) Lack of grass moves. 99% of the time if a Pokemon uses a grass move its going to be an unSTABbed Grass knot. Very few Pokemon learn Grass Knot. There's probably only around 5 on OU that do.

2) Lack of physical electric moves. The strongest physical electric move you'll see is an unSTABbed Thunder Punch. Water types with naturally high defense can shrug this off and heal the damage.

3) Most of the water types have high special defense. The most common anti-water move is a special attack. This is why for a long time Suicune was "OMG NO WEAK!" because of Calm Mind. Sure you could use thunderpunch, but with 100 HP and 115 defense you're only laughing at yourself.

Water types are fearful and powerful. There are 7 OU waters. There are only 2 OU Fires. You can blame water, rock and ground for that.

#1 is correct... but Swampert still hates it (she can still survive, but not with a lot of health).

#2... Electivire says hi, but he usually goes mixed.

#3 is mostly because of typing, I guess. Water types are only weak to two types and have very good defenses generally. Fire types are weak to Stealth Rocks and the ever common Earthquake for the most part. The only two OU Fire types, as you notice, are sweepers. To be a good fire type, you need to be strong. To be a good Water type, you need to be very defensive. I guess that's my input.

Someone vote for Water... it's now 8:6 for Fire to Water @_@

[ZMaster]

I kind of agree with Destati. Water types generally are harder to counter than fire types, as I see.

The only problem I see is that water types don't have much raw offense.

[wraith89]

I kind of agree with Destati. Water types generally are harder to counter than fire types, as I see.

The only problem I see is that water types don't have much raw offense.

You haven't seen Floatzel or Kingdra or Azumarill in battle, now have you? Vaporeon can also work as a special attacker, but that's not really her purpose. Gyarados is certainly a threat with raw power...

[evandixon]

Water:

-water has the fewest weaknesses out of all the types

-in the anime, the water type has hidden gills, to absorb the oxogen in the water

-there are more water types than any other

[wraith89]

Water:

-water has the fewest weaknesses out of all the types

-in the anime, the water type has hidden gills, to absorb the oxogen in the water

-there are more water types than any other

The first point is wrong though. Stupid Electric types only have one weakness... and there's magnet rise to get rid of it now >:-[

There's also those generic Normals with Fighting weakness only.

[Phreen]

You haven't seen Floatzel or Kingdra or Azumarill in battle, now have you? Vaporeon can also work as a special attacker, but that's not really her purpose. Gyarados is certainly a threat with raw power...

You forgot about starmie, it has pretty good defensive stats, and a good special atk, although its base HP of 60 is eh.

[wraith89]

You forgot about starmie, it has pretty good defensive stats, and a good special atk, although its base HP of 60 is eh.

Ok. Starmie. Sweeper... but I use it as a spinner mostly though.

[Phreen]

does the starmie spinner combo work, I only taught mine special moves, think I should have put recover in their too, and fire is winning, wow I thought water would be

[wraith89]

Vote for water... NAO.

But yes, Starmie is a good spinner, but it dies to Weavile's Pursuit... which is BAD. Starmie's a good spinner though, but special sweeping Starmie also works.

[Phreen]

I'm hoping water wins, not that I hate fire though, maybe I should make my starmie a spinner.

[wraith89]

If Starmie doesn't work, other spinners work, like Donphan or Blastoise (yes, the latter is in UU, but is perfectly usable in OU if used properly)