Should Stealth Rock be Banned?

[randomspot555]

im just mentioning that as a side note that some of my favorites are more susceptible to sr than others that happen to not be my favorites

and i relize its still possible to have a balanced game its just a bit harder then it would have been

So why should it be banned? Does SR force people to make a certain team? And I don't mean "You basically can't use X and Y Pokemon", I mean you basically carry at least one specific Pokemon or role.

Sure, it probably means my dream of a mono-flying Gym Leader is over, because unless a non-Delibird fliyer picks up Rapid Spin and I fool people into thinking Flygon is a flying type, they don't stand a chance. But no one making a balanced team is forced to carry anything to counter SR, and there are multiple ways to deal with all forms of entry hazards.

[SwitzaHouse]

This is true about P2, and no STAB sounds very strange. The clause idea sounds fair for everyone. Having to not worry about SR I think would be fun and some new team will come out of it. I feel that SR does centralize the game a bit, not too much I admit, but I do agree with what wraith said on how it does work a little too well.

Charizard beat by some floating pebbles!?! No way! GO, Charizard.

[Mewtwo Ex]

I quite frankly find this useless since this is becoming a quite dry thread. However if you have such a problem with Stealth Rock... Just get a Forretress to clean up the battle stage mess. I get Stealth Rock in almost every battle but i am not up for it being banned. If there is a way to do so even....

[randomspot555]

This is true about P2, and no STAB sounds very strange. The clause idea sounds fair for everyone. Having to not worry about SR I think would be fun and some new team will come out of it. I feel that SR does centralize the game a bit, not too much I admit, but I do agree with what wraith said on how it does work a little too well.

Charizard beat by some floating pebbles!?! No way! GO, Charizard.

It can't centralize the game "A bit". It either does or doesn't

[wraith89]

I quite frankly find this useless since this is becoming a quite dry thread. However if you have such a problem with Stealth Rock... Just get a Forretress to clean up the battle stage mess. I get Stealth Rock in almost every battle but i am not up for it being banned. If there is a way to do so even....

Only to have a Rotom block the way... allowing Rotom to freely set up or destroy your Forry, who was your only source of getting those rocks away. Sad how most rapid spinners are weak to Rotom >.<

Fortunately for Wifi users, Rotom appliances do not work in the wifi room! Hurray! Wait... is that a good thing or a bad thing?

[randomcouchpotato]

depends on who is using stealth rocks

[CrystalHawthorne]

Honestly, Stealth Rock is awful in the sense that is extremely overpowered, but universally will stay JUST under the threshold of 'broken'. Stealth Rock, as stated, is fantastic move. One turn of set up means that not only are your opponent's Pokemon running on about 88% health on their entry to play, but you've also effectively ruled out would-be threats such as Moltres and Yanmega. Unfortunately, stealth rock is admittedly a necessary evil. Without it, beasts such as Gyarados, Salamence, and even Zapdos and Scizor become very hard to tame.

[Turtlekid2]

I quite frankly find this useless since this is becoming a quite dry thread. However if you have such a problem with Stealth Rock... Just get a Forretress to clean up the battle stage mess.

Exactly. To survive Stealth Rock effectively, you need to be packing a Rapid Spinner such as Forretress. This wouldn't be a problem if SR wasn't so widespread, but the fact remains that an astounding number of teams carry the move. In other words, one is forced to carry at least one Pokemon of a certain role that could otherwise be replaced with a more useful one, or at least one that works better with the rest of the team.

Now, as I had hoped, some good points have been brought up. Certain 'mons such as Salamence and Gyarados would admittedly be more of a threat without Stealth Rock keeping them in check. And I'm not sure exactly how the Physical-Special split has affected such mainstays, but if the competitive scene remained relatively balanced and uncentralized without SR before Gen IV, surely counters and defenses could be devised like they always have? Also worth considering is that while the aforementioned OU sweepers and the like would be even more wicked without the influence of Stealth Rock, they are just that. "They" - plural; instead of one move necessitating a certain strategy, many different strategies would develop to deal with many different offensive threats. Obviously, this is a case of "woulda, coulda, shoulda," but I find it hard to believe that any of them could overcentralize the game more than SR already has.

[randomspot555]

Exactly. To survive Stealth Rock effectively, you need to be packing a Rapid Spinner such as Forretress. This wouldn't be a problem if SR wasn't so widespread, but the fact remains that an astounding number of teams carry the move. In other words, one is forced to carry at least one Pokemon of a certain role that could otherwise be replaced with a more useful one, or at least one that works better with the rest of the team.

One isn't forced to carry a Rapid Spinner to get rid of SR. Not only is it possible to make a team that isn't weak to SR, but quite easy to do.

Let me explain what over-centralization is. It's when one is forced to carry at least one Pokemon to deal with a specific threat, AND that Pokemon has little other use besides dealing with that threat. If one is forced to carry a Pokemon that has little other use besides doing one task, then it's overcentralization.

But as I've demonstrated before, every single Rapid Spinner does more than just get rid of SR. They also get rid of Leech Seed, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes (Toxic Spikes is especially notable since Roserade has climbed up as a lead). Not to mention many of them have tons of other uses. Starmie can absorb status and directly counter Gyarados. Tentacruel can auto-absorb Toxic Spikes with Liquid Ooze, knock off items from opponents (Trick Scarf Rotom HATES that), and a handy fighting resist and, if EVd correctly, never is OHKOed by Heatran's Earth Power. Claydol LEVITATES over spikes, resists SR, and immune to sand storm. Donphan...okay, Donphan kind of sucks, but at least he gets Knock Off, Rock Tomb, and Roar.

[wraith89]

Tentacruel isn't even 2HKOd by Earth Power from Heatran either... unless Heatran is spec'd or something. Mine even survives a Specs Alakazam's Psychic, which is worth noting. The best spinners in my opinion are Tentacruel and Forretress for OU. And Donphan isn't too bad... it's just not as great as the other spinners

Anyways yeah stuff like Leech Seed, other entry hazards, and binding moves like Wrap/Whirlpool/Fire Spin are all canceled out when using Rapid Spin (I used it with Blastoise in GSC wondering why such a weak move with 20 BP and 40 PP exists... and I would ALWAYS get released from Tangela's Bind, which was when I found out it had an effect other than "the user spins rapidly"). Stealth Rocks are not overcentralizing but as someone pointed out it is a "necessary evil" or else stuff like Zapdos will wreak havoc all over the place.

I'm still considering a no-Stealth Rock clause and see how it goes. A long time ago I had some NU battles without Stealth Rocks partly because NU (well, before the infestation of Tauros/Tangrowth/Nidoqueen/Medicham/Articuno/Regice/Entei etc...) were mostly bugs and fires and Delibirds who all hate Stealth Rocks. And it seems that stuff like Focus Sash are a lot more useful... with things having more durability than they normally would. Yeah... a game without Stealth Rocks is a lot different from a game with it, I'll tell you that.

[randomspot555]

A Stealth Rocks optional clause I wouldn't be oppose to just like items clause or the dozens of other dumb clauses like the Skarmblisscress clause, I doubt I'd ever play by it though.

[Tbird]

Really good points here. I got to say I hate SR. Pretty much just sour grapes on my part. I feel the same as everyone else no need to go over every point again. I wouldn't like to see it banned because then you are just taking away a part of the game. And frankly if someone is packing SR that's one pokemon on there team lost (In a role sense anyway.) People might not like packing a rapid spinner, but you got to think on the other hand the opponent has given up a roll for his SR. It's give and take in that sense.

Due to there be so many good and bad points for it to be banned I think it would be a good idea to simply slam a clause into the game wherein a player can decide whether or not he/she wants to be involved with SR. But even that could be detrimental - I mean if you put a clause on any move that has a somewhat valid case behind it we'll all be up the creek when all of a sudden 100 people rise up asking for a ban on sucker punch because Absol keeps killing their Gengar; it'll be hard to say no when they play the 'SR clause' card.

So although I'd really love to see SR banned so that I can use some of my favourites more often, and because I think it'd add to the game by creating more choice and allowance of new strategies, I think for the time being it's a case of don't fix what aint broken. (In the same breath I am really really really for the clause idea though :L)

[randomcouchpotato]

true enough, i am against stealth rocks because i dont use it, i use sucker punch a ton so i am completely for it. this is all mostly opinion on whether or not it would be banned.

[Varna]

I'd love to play some games where it wasn't used just to see how it would work out, but I wouldn't support a ban (I don't support any). The fact of the matter is that it's a one turn attack that takes away a decent chunk of HP from ALL of your opponent's Pokémon, and renders a lot of strategies and items much less useful or even obsolete. It's too stupidly good not to use. Is this a bad thing? Maybe, maybe not. If you're worried about "over centralized metagames" and whatnot, I suppose it could be a concern.

[randomspot555]

I'd love to play some games where it wasn't used just to see how it would work out, but I wouldn't support a ban (I don't support any). The fact of the matter is that it's a one turn attack that takes away a decent chunk of HP from ALL of your opponent's Pokémon, and renders a lot of strategies and items much less useful or even obsolete. It's too stupidly good not to use. Is this a bad thing? Maybe, maybe not. If you're worried about "over centralized metagames" and whatnot, I suppose it could be a concern.

Well, I'm concerned about that type of nerd-speak, but I think it keeps the game in check. Salamence could switch in and out with few worries and Zapdos wouldn't have to pack Roost.

[Varna]

And at the same time, their opposition wouldn't suffer from a chunk of their HP being gone and not being able to use Focus Sash. Wouldn't Regice make a decent Zapdos counter at that rate, even? It just seems like a give and take scenario to me, honestly.

[randomspot555]

And at the same time, their opposition wouldn't suffer from a chunk of their HP being gone and not being able to use Focus Sash. Wouldn't Regice make a decent Zapdos counter at that rate, even? It just seems like a give and take scenario to me, honestly.

With base 90 HP and base 90 Sp Def and access to Heat Wave?

Maybe in the world of Gen III, but with the additional moves from Plat, HG, and SS, it's a whole different ballgame. Zapdos picked up Heat Wave. Zapos other perfect counter (in the world of Shoddy anyway), Swampert, isn't as useful now due to widespread use of HP Grass over HP Ice.

[wraith89]

Regice takes Heat Wave from defensive Zapdos (standard) as if it was Rock Smash... offensive Zapdos still can't get past the specially defensive versions as Regice has base 200 SpDef (which is crazy). I ran a Calm Regice with only 8 SpDef investment, which hit 480 I believe and no Zapdos stood in its way. Regice's STAB Ice Beam hurts Zapdos and Resttalk allows it to not be affected by Pressure as much. Regice is an amazing counter to Zapdos and I've been using one as such during my testing period for Regice, but with SR rampant, carrying a Regice is impractical when you already have Tyranitar and Blissey doing the dirty work for you. Nonetheless I like Regice.

[randomcouchpotato]

i believ over at serebii they have a no entry hazards clause so if we start using that here then we could end this discussion/argument and those that want to use stealth rocks simply dont battle with said clause

[randomspot555]

i believ over at serebii they have a no entry hazards clause so if we start using that here then we could end this discussion/argument and those that want to use stealth rocks simply dont battle with said clause

SPPF does not have a "no entry hazards" clause. Their Wi-Fi Battle forum follows Shoddy standard rules to a T EXCEPT they also list "no hax items" as standard rules as well. ALL other clauses they list are under "NOT STANDARD" , which is basically a nice way of saying "these are mostly pretty dumb, but people still battle with them."

We're holding off on making a Shoddy rule to use until Shoddy 2 comes out, last I checked.

[memjee]

nice suggestion.

Yea a entry hazard clause wouldn't be bad.

It ruins stall teams though.

And makes the metagame purely face paced sweepage.

Personally I'd like it if nintendo put more ways of countering it other than rapid spin.

[Shogun]

I think there should be more Rapid Spinners, ones that aren't really weak to Rotom. I can not think of one of the current Rapid Spinners as not being weak to Rotoms. Donphan, Forretress, Sandlsash, Tentacruel are some great Rapid Spinners who are all weak to Rotom.

[randomspot555]

I think there should be more Rapid Spinners, ones that aren't really weak to Rotom. I can not think of one of the current Rapid Spinners as not being weak to Rotoms. Donphan, Forretress, Sandlsash, Tentacruel are some great Rapid Spinners who are all weak to Rotom.

It sucks, but Rotom isn't a particularly hard Pokemon to deal with. Blissey, Snorlax, or Tyranitar (watch out for Will O Wisp) can all handle Rotom, or at least force a switch.

What I kind of think would be cool is a Ghost-type that learns Rapid Spin. That means you get your spin blocker AND user all in one.

[Midna312]

Now to my suggestion...I think its a WIMPY MOVE!!!!!!SORRY...BUT ITS TRUE

[Midna312]

Dont know what you mean Riolu Aura Sphere Now but your ideas are amazing. Actually all your ideas are.GOOD JOB GUYS!