Easy Mode Clause

[Illithian]

Hello.

This thread came off the "Development of a PP Tier" thread. Essentially, it is a description for a clause that I dubbed the 'Easy Mode' clause that would be for beginners in standard battling.

What it is: The Easy Mode clause is essentially a small list of banned pokemon that currently dominate the Standard metagame. These pokemon would be powerhouses and pokemon that are in general difficult to deal with.

Why it does: New players in the competitive scene often find themselves overwhelmed by the amount of options there are available. What combinations will work? Can I use them? Will the just get beaten down? Unfortunately, because of the way this metagame is designed, new players without much experience in prediction will often resort to using the powerhouses of the metagame. These powerhouses are the tried and true pokemon that are the best of the best. They can sweep like theres no tomorrow. Banning these incredibly powerful pokemon would seriously open up the metagame for less used pokemon to fill in the spots.

Why its useful: Allowing a new player to have a much more free selection of pokemon creates a much more new-player friendly metagame. If people can choose often overlooked pokemon on their teams and get used to the way they work, they can seriously get to know the odder pokemon in the Standard tier, and once they move off the Easy Mode, they'll have a much better appreciation for the less used pokemon and a much better understanding of strategy and prediction.

Another reason it would be useful is it allows new players to easily determine other new players. Experienced battlers probably wouldn't enjoy Easy Mode very much, so newer players could fight other newer players at a fairly equal skill level.

---

Randomspot made an excellent argument, and a revamping of the banlist is due:

Proposed banlist:

Tyranitar

Salamence

Scizor

Latias

Heatran

Togekiss?

Gyarados?

Reasoning:

Tyranitar: With amazing stats in everything except speed, access to a ridiculous move pool full of offensive moves, defensive, team support, and everything else, and a 50% boost in special defense due to sand stream. That's right, even though it's typing gives it tons of weaknesses, that doesn't matter. It soaks up special hits like there's no tomorrow.

Salamence: Yeah, it sucks in uber battling,but who cares? It dominates the current game. Offense? Standard DD. Defense? Well, it gets Roost and Iron Defense. It's also got just decent enough of a special move pool to run special sets. Intimidate means it can take a few hits before going down.

Latias: While I haven't encountered it too much, when I do, I'm usually screwed unless I stop and think for a while.

Scizor: Duh. This guy causes so many Pokemon to switch out, and CB hurts, even if the opponent resists. And if it's running a Sub, stat up, or Baton Pass set, it's pretty much a guarantee that Scizor will get a chance to sub/stat up/Baton Pass.

Heatran: Again, duh. Typing gives it fire immunity, poison immunity, resists to a lot of other stuff, and it's speed is just good enough to be boosted by a scarf. Or you can get sp atk up to ridiculous levels and specs it. Or you can sub up and fire off Will O Wisp to cripple Breloom and other switch ins. Or it can explode.

While not very centralizing, to a new player, Togekiss is devastating and easy to play. Paraflinch is incredibly easy to use and while it is counterable, I think if Togekiss was left alone, it would go on virtually every team. Newer players would have no idea how to predict to get in an Electivire or maybe a Jolteon and then the Togekiss could just switch out. Yes, Togekiss isn't fast, but a bad case of hax can end someone's wandering in competitive battling.

What do you think of this clause as a whole? Please vote in the poll.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Illithian
Changes to the banlist.

[randomspot555]

Instead of telling you why your list of proposed easy mode bans is wrong, I'll just go with my own.

I don't think Easy Mode should remove a TON of Pokemon. I think it should remove 6-7 of the biggest threats. Coincidentally, these threats usually have a roll or two to fill in Uber battling.

Tyranitar: With amazing stats in everything except speed, access to a ridiculous move pool full of offensive moves, defensive, team support, and everything else, and a 50% boost in special defense due to sand stream. That's right, even though it's typing gives it tons of weaknesses, that doesn't matter. It soaks up special hits like there's no tomorrow.

Salamence: Yeah, it sucks in uber battling,but who cares? It dominates the current game. Offense? Standard DD. Defense? Well, it gets Roost and Iron Defense. It's also got just decent enough of a special move pool to run special sets. Intimidate means it can take a few hits before going down.

Latias: While I haven't encountered it too much, when I do, I'm usually screwed unless I stop and think for a while.

Scizor: Duh. This guy causes so many Pokemon to switch out, and CB hurts, even if the opponent resists. And if it's running a Sub, stat up, or Baton Pass set, it's pretty much a guarantee that Scizor will get a chance to sub/stat up/Baton Pass.

Heatran: Again, duh. Typing gives it fire immunity, poison immunity, resists to a lot of other stuff, and it's speed is just good enough to be boosted by a scarf. Or you can get sp atk up to ridiculous levels and specs it. Or you can sub up and fire off Will O Wisp to cripple Breloom and other switch ins. Or it can explode.

Lucario, Magnezon, Metagross, and the Rotom forms are formidable threats, but they don't have nearly the "oh shit" feel of the above. Lucario's typing is good, but it's defense sucks so it can't afford to switch on much. Magnezone's sole purpose is to trap Scizor. Metagross is hampered by Trick and usually doesnt like STAB special attacks that it doesn't resist. Togekiss is easily counterable in so many ways that I lost count.

Mamoswine: See Metagross. Alakazam is something I've rarely encountered and I've never had a problem with it. Celebi and Jirachi have been annoying as hell but I don't think they're centralizing the way that the 6 I outlined are.

[novaspectre]

I fully agree with randomspot555's list of easy mode bans. I'm still somewhat new to the competitive scene and would appreciate an easy clause, even though I'd be going without it more often than with...

But I see the merit in the gesture, as well as the positive effects it can have in letting new players get their feet wet without getting washed away by the powerhouses of the standard metagame.

[Gin]

Yes, I agree with Random as well. Though, Zapdos and Infernape might also be added to the list. However, they're useless in ubers...

[randomspot555]

Yes, I agree with Random as well. Though, Zapdos and Infernape might also be added to the list. However, they're useless in ubers...

How are Zapdos and Infernape as centralizing as the ones I outlined?

[Illithian]

I agree with randomspot. I posted this late at night and I really didn't have time to think through different possibilities. Your banlist looks fine and makes sense.

However, there is something I'd like to clarify. Its not just the powerhouses that would go on that list. It would also be pokemon that are exceptionally difficult to deal with. I think if one more pokemon should go on that list, its Togekiss.

While not very centralizing, to a new player, Togekiss is devastating and easy to play. Paraflinch is incredibly easy to use and while it is counterable, I think if Togekiss was left alone, it would go on virtually every team. Newer players would have no idea how to predict to get in an Electivire or maybe a Jolteon and then the Togekiss could just switch out. Yes, Togekiss isn't fast, but a bad case of hax can end someone's wandering in competitive battling.

[Varna]

Big list 'o bans

I'd like to nominate Gyarados for consideration in that list. I find him to be extremely hard to deal with, barring a lucky spatk lightning hit, and that becomes really hard to do when facing a Bounce set. He might not be as bad as some of the ones on there, but I figured I'd say what comes to mind.

[randomspot555]

While not very centralizing, to a new player, Togekiss is devastating and easy to play. Paraflinch is incredibly easy to use and while it is counterable, I think if Togekiss was left alone, it would go on virtually every team. Newer players would have no idea how to predict to get in an Electivire or maybe a Jolteon and then the Togekiss could just switch out. Yes, Togekiss isn't fast, but a bad case of hax can end someone's wandering in competitive battling.

If a bad case of hax is going to make someone quit, they have much bigger problems then what happens in a Pokemon battle.

Whenever you start doing a ban of "allowed but powerful" (for lack of a better phrase) there's ALWAYS going to be a handful of Pokemon still allowed in that will end up on everyone's team. In a Kanto only tournament I recently participated in, all teams except one had Gengar. Another tournament had a similar theme to this, banning the most powerful, centralizing Pokemon, and allowing the rest, to foster creativity. But the OP even put "Even though I know all of you are gonna use Togekiss."

What about Trick users? That can mess someone's game up right away. There goes Gengar, Mismagius, Starmie, Spiritomb. Butterfree, Smeargle, and Breloom all have access to (near) 100% sleep.

There will always be good Pokemon allowed. But Togekiss is honestly one of the easier ones to counter (IE Swampert).

[Doc]

i guess this could work, its a good idea for newbies but i think you might as well just ban ubers and OU completely, anything OU can be devastating if used correctly and i think it would be simply a matter of opinion who gets banned or not, so the only way to be fair would be to ban all OU pokes.

personally ive given up on competitive battling anyway, no one ever follows the rules and if they do its very likely that they will know the game inside and out and you will drawn into a game where every HP and PP count, it will just be switch switch switch until one player gets the upper hand and wins, its just not any fun and renders most pokemon useless.

i guess having this clause would fix a couple of the issues i have with the game but im still not returning to competitive battling.

[Illithian]

i guess this could work, its a good idea for newbies but i think you might as well just ban ubers and OU completely, anything OU can be devastating if used correctly and i think it would be simply a matter of opinion who gets banned or not, so the only way to be fair would be to ban all OU pokes.

personally ive given up on competitive battling anyway, no one ever follows the rules and if they do its very likely that they will know the game inside and out and you will drawn into a game where every HP and PP count, it will just be switch switch switch until one player gets the upper hand and wins, its just not any fun and renders most pokemon useless.

i guess having this clause would fix a couple of the issues i have with the game but im still not returning to competitive battling.

Competitive battling is a game of skill. Its hard to keep up.

In any case, my argument against this is as such:

Many OU pokemon are spent. They were good in D/P, but the Platinum metagame renders them useless. The fact is, with Platinum, there are a good 6 or 7 pokemon that EVERY team in the game has atleast one of, and most have two. Salamence, Latias, and Scizor are the main ones. Scizor + Latias is extremely deadly as they complement each other quite well. Salamence by itself rips through teams, and often Scizor is paired with it to get rid of the remnants.

Yes, most OU pokemon can be deadly in some way. But the 6 that randomspot mentioned are easy to use and absurdly difficult to counter and get rid of. No other pokemon can hope to match up to that level, in this metagame.

Ubers being banned is a given.

Also, to your original point, how do people not follow the rules? On shoddy its enforced.

[randomspot555]

I'd like to nominate Gyarados for consideration in that list. I find him to be extremely hard to deal with, barring a lucky spatk lightning hit, and that becomes really hard to do when facing a Bounce set. He might not be as bad as some of the ones on there, but I figured I'd say what comes to mind.

Honestly, I agree. For the most part, DDdos serves the same role as Mence but with a different move pool and typing. It's a monster in the game and very hard to counter if you're not familiar with porygon-2 and the Rotom forms.

i guess this could work, its a good idea for newbies but i think you might as well just ban ubers and OU completely, anything OU can be devastating if used correctly and i think it would be simply a matter of opinion who gets banned or not, so the only way to be fair would be to ban all OU pokes.

personally ive given up on competitive battling anyway, no one ever follows the rules and if they do its very likely that they will know the game inside and out and you will drawn into a game where every HP and PP count, it will just be switch switch switch until one player gets the upper hand and wins, its just not any fun and renders most pokemon useless.

i guess having this clause would fix a couple of the issues i have with the game but im still not returning to competitive battling.

Thanks for telling us how you feel on something you won't participate in?

[HottSushiz]

This sounds like a interesting clause, it's defiantly convent to those who are just starting out, well I'm all towards it.

Hmm just a suggestion how bout Metagross, with Ninjask baton pass set.

It's quite annoying if you don't have a Pokemon to stop Ninjask from Sword dancing and speed boosting up, then Baton Pass to a Pokemon with 2 weakness. And moves like Explosion, Thunderpunch, Meteor Mash, and Earthquake.

[randomspot555]

This sounds like a interesting clause, it's defiantly convent to those who are just starting out, well I'm all towards it.

Hmm just a suggestion how bout Metagross, with Ninjask baton pass set.

It's quite annoying if you don't have a Pokemon to stop Ninjask from Sword dancing and speed boosting up, then Baton Pass to a Pokemon with 2 weakness. And moves like Explosion, Thunderpunch, Meteor Mash, and Earthquake.

No.

First off banning Metagross due to "Ninjask Baton pass set" would mean banning all BPers, and that's dumb.

Second, Roar/whirlwind.

[Varna]

No.

First off banning Metagross due to "Ninjask Baton pass set" would mean banning all BPers, and that's dumb.

Second, Roar/whirlwind.

Taunt?

[Illithian]

We are not going to ban Baton Passing, a strategy so hard to execute and so rare, just because its slightly difficult to deal with. Yes, it can sweep teams, but a new person will be swept by a BP team one time before they figure out how to deal with it. Anyway, Varna, as you mentioned, Taunt breaks Baton Pass chains and hits through Substitute.

I'm hesitant to ban Gyarados. Hes not nearly as powerful as Salamence. His main moveset consists of Waterfall, Earthquake, Stone Edge, and/or Ice Fang, along with DD. His massive weakness to one of the most common types makes him easily counterable by more then just the Rotom forms. As such, I don't think he should be banned. Still, I put him up for consideration.

Also, more reasons why not. Comparing their base stats, Salamence is bulkier and faster, has higher base attack and special attack, and same HP. Gyarados has higher SpD, but lower attacking stats. Salamence has the same # of resistances and only one more weakness. Comparing movepools, Salamence has:

Outrage

Earthquake

Fire Blast

Stone Edge

Draco Meteor

Hydro Pump

Crunch

Brick Break

Aqua Tail

Gyarados has:

Waterfall

Stone Edge

Ice Fang

Earthquake

Payback

Avalanche

Bounce

As far as coverage, theres a massive difference. And Salamence gets to use an extremely powerful mixed set to boot.

Gyarados isn't nearly as powerful as Salamence, and unless something can come close to matching him, it isn't a good idea to ban them.

[Skyfire]

Blissey? Blissey is the most used pokemon in smogon server. She walls almost every special sweepers and has the highest HP.

[Substitute]

I say it's a good idea..only if it's an option for people that aren't familiar with competitive battling. After they're used to it..they can probably easily slide into the competitive scene.

[Illithian]

Blissey? Blissey is the most used pokemon in smogon server. She walls almost every special sweepers and has the highest HP.

What are you talking about? Blissey is 12th most used pokemon, behind Swampert, Gengar, Latias, Rotom-A, Lucario, Infernape, Tyranitar, Metagross, Heatran, Gyarados, Salamence, and Scizor.

[Substitute]

So when is this idea going to be applied? We could make a special thing on shoddy for it too.

[wraith89]

I'm hesitant to ban Gyarados. Hes not nearly as powerful as Salamence. His main moveset consists of Waterfall, Earthquake, Stone Edge, and/or Ice Fang, along with DD. His massive weakness to one of the most common types makes him easily counterable by more then just the Rotom forms. As such, I don't think he should be banned. Still, I put him up for consideration.

Also, more reasons why not. Comparing their base stats, Salamence is bulkier and faster, has higher base attack and special attack, and same HP. Gyarados has higher SpD, but lower attacking stats. Salamence has the same # of resistances and only one more weakness. Comparing movepools, Salamence has:

Outrage

Earthquake

Fire Blast

Stone Edge

Draco Meteor

Hydro Pump

Crunch

Brick Break

Aqua Tail

Gyarados has:

Waterfall

Stone Edge

Ice Fang

Earthquake

Payback

Avalanche

Bounce

As far as coverage, theres a massive difference. And Salamence gets to use an extremely powerful mixed set to boot.

Gyarados isn't nearly as powerful as Salamence, and unless something can come close to matching him, it isn't a good idea to ban them.

I thought about that... and it seems as if Salamence is superior in every way (can attack from both sides of the spectrum, more powerful, better movepool)... but... there are some stuff Gyarados can do what Salamence cannot do.

You're forgetting Gyarados's typing... and not to mention water is a very good typing defensively and offensively. Water isn't resisted by steel, is neutral on MANY things, and with a few DDs (it's VERY easy to get some DDs in and Starmie's TBolt from the "standard" set doesn't even OHKO), Gyarados is still pretty potent (not to mention even Scizor cannot handle Gyarados). Electric moves are nowhere near as rampant as Ice moves (sure, electric moves are still there, but you'd be surprised how lacking it is compared to Ice). You're also forgetting one move: Taunt. Yes, that's right... Taunt screws over phazers like Skarmory and prevents people from using WoW/TWave on Gyara which would otherwise be detrimental on Salamence. People always hated me for using Taunt Gyarados with Waterfall/Stone Edge/Dragon Dance with the defensive EVs (just ask many people here).

While I'm still iffy about banning Gyarados outright (as well as this whole easy mode concept), I've seen Gyarados force switches and always gets in at least 1 DD and in my experience, he is quite easy to abuse. I've used Gyarados with the usual Dragon Dance and 97% of the time it swept teams that were even well prepared for it. Jolteon comes in... only to die from a Jolly version'd EQ or even STAB Waterfall (most offensive DD Gyaras are Jolly to outpace Jolty after + 1). Zapdos dies to Stone Edge and defensive versions don't outspeed it so it cannot switch in directly lest it wants to be 2HKOd. Not to mention in the early stages of DPP Gyara was paired with Electivire... making it very easy to lure an electric move in and speed up the otherwise mediocre paced Electivire. I mean think about it. How many bulky waters out there pack HP Electric just to deal with Gyarados (which isn't enough to OHKO unlike Ice Beam which usually OHKOs Sally)?

Most Salamence I've found were actually not too hard to deal with... which was very surprising. Well... it's probably because I've used Mamoswine (my answer to a + 6 Salamence) which OHKOs it with Ice Shard... unless you were using a defensive Salamence, which isn't as nearly as threatening, but still... there are ways to deal with Salamence... but Gyarados isn't as easy. If you ever let Salamence set up and rampage through your team, then that's your problem (although they're easy to abuse just as much as it is with Gyara). Once it starts Outraging, just send in Skarmory (or some other steel... I'm sure you have a Steel somewhere in your team) and phaze it out or incapacitate it somehow. Gyarados doesn't use Outrage usually (unless you were me using bizarre movesets) and Taunt versions deal with Skarmory anyhow. Yes, Gyarados is SR weak... guess what? So is Salamence.

Overall... just think about it.

[Skyfire]

What are you talking about? Blissey is 12th most used pokemon, behind Swampert, Gengar, Latias, Rotom-A, Lucario, Infernape, Tyranitar, Metagross, Heatran, Gyarados, Salamence, and Scizor.

srsly.. last time I check it was Blissey but it was long time but bleeh.

[randomspot555]

Blissey? Blissey is the most used pokemon in smogon server. She walls almost every special sweepers and has the highest HP.

blissey is one of the easiest Pokemon to counter. Your counter is any physical attacker.

[Illithian]

Wraith, Mamoswine is the only true Salamence counter in the game. Yes, he is very powerful, but most people don't use him. Without Mamoswine, people have an extremely difficult time taking down Salamence, often having to rely on shaky prediction to kill him. A new person can't rely on that at all.

As for Gyarados, he is easily counterable. His low physical defense and speed is a big problem, being that most choice scarf pokemon will outspeed him and easily OHKO. Not only that, but hes extremely easy to wall. Any physically defensive pokemon simply switch in and Gyarados is forced out. Water STAB may be extremely powerful, but Dragon is only resisted by Steel, and provides much better neutral coverage. Salamence can also wallbreak, which Gyarados cannot.

[wraith89]

Wraith, Mamoswine is the only true Salamence counter in the game. Yes, he is very powerful, but most people don't use him. Without Mamoswine, people have an extremely difficult time taking down Salamence, often having to rely on shaky prediction to kill him. A new person can't rely on that at all.

As for Gyarados, he is easily counterable. His low physical defense and speed is a big problem, being that most choice scarf pokemon will outspeed him and easily OHKO. Not only that, but hes extremely easy to wall. Any physically defensive pokemon simply switch in and Gyarados is forced out. Water STAB may be extremely powerful, but Dragon is only resisted by Steel, and provides much better neutral coverage. Salamence can also wallbreak, which Gyarados cannot.

Mamo's not really a counter... because it can go down to a Fire Blast or something. Like Weavile it is a revenge killer I suppose (unless you get in on a DD). And there are other ways to bring down a Salamence. Let's see... SR... sand... most likely Life Orb recoil... isn't that enough residual damage to bring it down to KO range from something like... Swampert?

And you say that Gyara is "easily counterable". Have you fought a Gyarados before without having to use your vaunted Latias or something? It's not "easily" walled either (yes, I've had my Arcanine wall a Gyarados, but that was under certain circumstances). Gyara in my opinion can be as menacing as Salamence... even if their stats beg to differ, Gyarados really isn't an "inferior Salamence". People were not afraid of bulky Gyara for no reason you know.

Most of those physical walls that you mention like Skarmory or Bronzong can be easily taunted while Gyarados can set up with impunity (watch out for Explosion though) and proceed to sweep your team. It really isn't that easy... although I will agree that Salamence is much more intimidating thanks to 135/100 stats as opposed to 125/81 and mence can wall break. But even so... being locked into Outrage can be disappointing when the opponent sends out something that can destroy you/wall you.

[Illithian]

Firstly, Mamoswine is an incredible Salamence counter. Its not hard for him to get in on an Outrage or something and get back with Ice Shard. And Weavile can indeed counter or revenge kill.

It is true that Gyarados can run taunt, but his main counters, Rotom, Celebi, and really any pokemon that has an electric move can take care of him.

See, the thing about Gyarados is that while he can sweep a team, there are lots of pokemon that can take him down when he has +1 DD. Salamence doesn't. With +1, Salamence can easily run through an entire team and the only way to even attempt to take him down is a revenge kill. Very few pokemon can revenge kill Salamence.

Not only that, but we've only talked about the DD sets. The mixed sets for Salamence are arguably even more deadly, and Gyarados can't claim to have any real usable sets aside from DD and resttalk.