Creation of the universe: Darwin or Bible

[kuoleva]

/facepalm Again, WRITTEN BY HUMANS. I could write a book and say it's the word of god. You couldn't deny it if you don't deny the fact that the bible was written by humans. Nobody seems to get it, people lie. NOTHING written by humans can be trusted. I despise when people use the bible as a crutch. Just because a book says so, does not mean it's true.

About reincarnation, you said god wants people to learn? Maybe I want to COME BACK and learn. I've seen one side of it, once. I haven't seen how people live in China, Finland, or even across the road. There is so much more to the world that I wouldn't be able to see in this life alone.

I'm going to start sounding rude here, but I'm tired and in a bad mood from earlier today. >.<

Maybe you are the ones not realizing his "love" is anger. What seems to be love is actually his evil... Perhaps you just don't realize it. No, we don't see things the way god does. But, honestly, I wish god would see it the way we do. Again with the question you keep dodging, why give us free will, then punish us eternally for it? Maybe I'm just blind, but really, I see no love in a lake of fire. "hay guiase i luff u but imma burn u cuz u no tell me u luf me, kthxbai". Apparently, YOU haven't seen the other facet. You talk about Allah being an angry god. Indeed, he is, but have you read your old testament lately? Been stoning some prostitutes have you? Where is the love in THAT? I know many people have twisted it and such, but groups like "God Hates Fags" make me sick to my stomach. And you know what? They read their bibles. They're doing what god apparently told them to: kill anyone different.

Oh, and Aphrodite was, and to me still is, a VERY powerful creator goddess. She was turned into the "sex fiend" when Greek society became patriarchal instead of matriarchal.

I don't mean to offend, but that is what I believe. I have Christian friends, they're all nice and fine, but really. I wish some people would open their eyes and realize following a book isn't very healthy. Although I do believe that anything that makes you do good in this world is healthy, groups like God Hates Fags make me want to become a serial killer. x.x It might just be my bad experiences have made me scared, literally being threatened with stoning or burning at the stake does not bode well for one's psyche. And I do mean literally, they even had the match out. No, I wouldn't report them, they're very good at playing innocent. Maybe I should call the ACLU.

Back OT, I'm for a combo. ;P

[Enkidu]

Ok so, what the hell? Most of these posts aren't even addressing the OP's question.

The exact same way theists think that Christian creation and religion "gives meaning" to life and is a deep and complex affair, is exactly how people like me also perceive the theory of Evolution ( and please don't rationalize it as Darwin vs Creationism ) The entire system of information and classification that makes up what the current theory of evolution is is not something that can be sum'd up in a mere 2 pages on some forum. The data acquired and used to prove that there is a high % that evolution is correct ( yes, not 100% prove the theory as truth ) spans hundreds of thousands of tests, hundreds of years of research, the life works of more than 100 scientists and the time/carbon/radioactive dating on millions of preserved fossils and the like.

In the same way you guys are saying that Evolution doesn't make sense ( from what seems to me is a clear lack of understanding of the information that was used in order to sum up this "theory" in a line or two that people seem to rip apart. ) Creation doesn't fit together perfectly either. Your essentially taking the Hegelian system of rationalization and taking out everything that helps it make sense and at the same time trying to weigh an incomplete assertion against ( one that most of you obviously agree with anyway ) a simple, faith based one.

Soren Kierkegaard anyone?

Do you know what Irks me though? That despite the fact that all of these religious organizations say things like " We have to believe 100% in the bible " that they still judge man on earth and shout obscenities, hateful messages and threats of death when they themselves repeatedly remind you that it is only gods right to judge man. That despite all of these things that people under the guise of "religion" do, because they believe in god and Jesus they can get away with saying and unfortunately doing whatever they want. While normal people who live good lives, even by their standards will "buuurn in hell" simply because their beliefs on something intangible and incomprehensible by the human mind differ.

[foibles]

So we all know that somehow this world we all live in today, the entire universe came to be. The complexities of everything right down to mitosis all had to happen somehow. So how do you think that it happened. Darwin's theory has something to do with ooze that became X which became X which became X which became X and so on and then X turned into us or humans. The bible states that God created everything in 6 days on the 7th day he rested. I think those are the two main ones on the subject of creation. Please post your opinion and back up your answer...now for mine...

Right into your first paragraph you have already shown that you know nothing about evolution. Ya for you. The way life (in all acceptable probability) started off is carbon forming bonds with other elements to form what we call organic compounds. Some of these compounds formed the various building blocks of life (deoxy ribonucleic acid and ribonucleic acid to name a few) these molecules mutated over time and the organisms around them started to change (because proteins are the final manifestation of genes)

You see I believe in the bible. I think it makes more sense and I believe the bible to be 100% truth. The actual probability that over billions and billions of years the universe fell into the precise location it lies in is just inprobable. The actual idea that over billions of years the earth formed into the exact location it is now in order to sustain life. If our planet was just a little bit off where it is now life would be unable to exist! The actual theory that life came from inanimate ooze that was zapped by who knows what is just well 0.

First of all, the universe is not in an "exact position". It is a well known and well documented fact that, one: the universe and bodies withing the universe (galaxy clusters, nebulae, etc...) are constantly moving, and two: the universe is expanding constantly. And the idea that one planet out of many (there are an estimated 70 sextillion (or 7x10^22) stars in the universe, and it is safe to assume that many of them have more then one planet, even if we can not see them well) having the capability to support life is completely plausible, seeing as as we can see it right now there are probably two main necessities for life, those necessities being a heat/electromagnetic radiation emitting energy source, and dihydrogen monoxide. And I think I already discussed why your "opinion" about "inanimate ooze" is complete and utter BS.

The scientists that back this thing say that miracles are impossible because they dont see it and it is not able to be replicated. Well....what about your ooze! Did you see it? "well know it was X years ago no one was around..." is it able to be replicated? "Well know it is a once in an existance thing it can only happen once..." well then you are incorrect by your own basis.

It can and it has been replicated to an extent, under circumstances that were vary much like what was on early earth. The other thing is that miracles don't happen in the first place, which is why they cannot be replicated.

Well you know how they say that the ooze goes to X and then X well then how come there is not a single legit fossil record of a transspecies creature? Your answer-because they dont exist. The whole theory in my opinion is nonsense and the guy who made it up and his offspring are now filthy rich because of it and because of money no one is able to stop them.

For one thing it is easy to see evolution happening today. Some bacteria reproduce so quickly that you can literally SEE them evolving. You don't need a fossil record to prove that, when its happening under your very eyes. Also were you aware that there have been many religions that have only been enormous money making schemes? (The most notable one being the catholic church.)

There are a lot of wholes in the theory and the earth does not top 10000 years of age. The bible has the answers and I believe to be the greatest historical record in the history of man kind. The whole evolution thing just has to many wholes to believe in. Ok, there is my argument. Now what do you say?

Lets clear something up here. many of the facts in the bible have been PROVEN to be 100% wrong. For example, lets look at the jew's escape from Egypt. Not only was one man parting a huge lake a physical impossibility at the time, but after the Jews got away from egypt, they went from city to city. The catch? Many of these cities did not exist simultaneously. The whole thing about them conquering the "holy land"? Archeological records show that they Jews were an ingenious group in the so called "holy land" one of the things that actually set them apart the earliest is their practice of not eating pork, as is evidenced by the lack of pig bones in ancient Jewish fire pits, in contrast to those of other natives. So now you're probably asking yourself: "why would you make up a big story like that anyway?" Well, do you know how you claimed land back then? You conquered it. Claiming to have taken the holy land by force was as good as a title deed for the Jews. The entire thing looks like it was put together by a whole bunch of not very well informed theologians. It was.

That's me answer earth, is placed perfectly, if it's a tiny bit near the sun, we would all burn up, and if earth was a little bit further, we would all freeze, i think it's strange, that the ooze, or whatever, thought of an idea of putting the earth there, i know it's God's doing.

Already been discussed

If you have visited church, people are getting saved, either emotionally, or physically, like last Sunday, we had an Healing Service, and this one boy, he was deaf at birth, or something, which made him have to use a hearing aid, when it was his turn to get prayed for, and healed, the pastor shouted to take off his hearing aids, thus the pastor, and everyone around started praying, and the boy asks his mum why are people so loud, and his mum started crying.

You know there is a possibility that he had ear damage at birth, or that there was some mutation in some homeotic gene that caused delayed hearing development. I would explain this now, but I don't feel the need to unless you really want to know what I'm talking about.

there has been numerous cases where the patient is healed, and the doctors are fumbling trying to figure out, like once there was a guy he was due to die from cancer like a week away, and when he asked for the prayer request, he miraculously healed, the doctor's were astonished, there wasn't any trace of Cancer left.

Cancer can die too you know. The other thing is that this kind of thing is often nothing more then urban legend, and thus should be taken with a grain of salt. But trust me, the laws of physics are not violated in normal hospitals

I believe wholeheartedly in the truth of Genesis.

This is not simply some religion for me. In fact, I don't follow a religion. I am a Christ-follower, a Christian as they may call them, in a very personal, very spiritual sense. It is my being and my everything.

This thing I have with God, it's a relationship. A real, true and powerful, intimate love relationship. Think of a newlywed man and woman, the passion they feel for each other and the zeal they have for life. That is me to my Lord and Saviour, Jesus.

In other words, this thing you have is a bunch of more or less arbitrary chemical and electronic signals in an organ that is the direct result of millions of years of genetic mutations. You are incredible my friend. One other thing: I really don't know how many newlywed people you have met, but all of my experinces with them have involved a LOT of sex (AKA hormonal action). Are you trying to say that you have a hormonal/sexual relationship with someone you can't see, feel, touch, or any other evidence of existence?

He was this guy who healed broken lives, and I have felt this healing in my life. He humbly laid His life down, and gave Himself to men to die an excruciating death on a Roman cross. And then, three days later, rose. Conquering death. He proved to even His own doubting disciples who He was, once again. Amazing.

have I not already discussed why the bible should be taken with a grain of salt? Try finding anything about Jesus' rebirth in roman records from that time, trust me, you will NOT find any.

That is Genesis. Birth. Death. Restoration.

genesis: physical impossibility. Birth: AKA sexual reproduction, a simple biological process. Death: cells ceasing to function. Restoration: In the case of rebirth, another physical impossibility.

God said let there be light, and there was light. Universe. One spoke word.

"Uni" = One and "Verse" = spoken word.

What does this even mean?

That is what I simply believe, nothing less. The signs are everywhere, His fingerprints detailed in our very blood. Nothing anyone could ever say will change this for me, because I simply know it is true, it screams it in my heart and in my mind. There's no going back. I am His. :]

This screams heroin addict to me. I have met them so I would know too.

only posting this down here so that the thing will let me post!

[Okami]

/facepalm Again, WRITTEN BY HUMANS. I could write a book and say it's the word of god. You couldn't deny it if you don't deny the fact that the bible was written by humans. Nobody seems to get it, people lie. NOTHING written by humans can be trusted. I despise when people use the bible as a crutch. Just because a book says so, does not mean it's true.

Yes. You're absolutely correct. The Bible was absolutely written by humans. The Holy Spirit is basically in charge of working through humans, and that is how God's Word is communicated effectively through broken, sinful creatures like us humans. It is written by humans so it can be understood by humans.

Here's an example. Look at the Ten Commandments.

Exodus 20: 1-17, New Living Translation

1 Then God gave the people all these instructions

2 “I am the Lord your God, who rescued you from the land of Egypt, the place of your slavery.

3 “You must not have any other god but me.

4 “You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea.

5 You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected—even children in the third and fourth generations of those who reject me.

6 But I lavish unfailing love for a thousand generations on those who love me and obey my commands.

7 “You must not misuse the name of the Lord your God. The Lord will not let you go unpunished if you misuse his name.

8 “Remember to observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

9 You have six days each week for your ordinary work,

10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath day of rest dedicated to the Lord your God. On that day no one in your household may do any work. This includes you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, your livestock, and any foreigners living among you.

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.

12 “Honor your father and mother. Then you will live a long, full life in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

13 “You must not murder.

14 “You must not commit adultery.

15 “You must not steal.

16 “You must not testify falsely against your neighbor.

17 “You must not covet your neighbor’s house. You must not covet your neighbor’s wife, male or female servant, ox or donkey, or anything else that belongs to your neighbor.”

(I'm breaking it down for my own personal use here)

The four of the first five commandments are spoken directly by God. In the first person, I mean, but Moses is telling the people these just as God told to him. The people cannot handle it, and so Moses switches to third person.

If the entire Bible was written directly by God it would scare the living hell right out of us. We would be so afraid of a Being that powerful, that we'd basically be brainwashed by our fear into worship. God doesn't want that, He wants us to choose for ourselves on exactly who we believe He is.

What's the quote I'm thinking of by CS Lewis, guys? Help me out here.

It's right there at the tip of my tongue...something about Jesus was either crazy, something, something, or that He was who He said He was. Grah, I can't think of the actual quote...

Other favorites by CS Lewis, though:

"God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: it is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world."

"Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you find that you have excluded life itself."

And, of course, me being a Narnia nut

"'Safe?' said Mr. Beaver...'Who said anything about safe? 'Course he isn't safe. but he's good. He's the King, I tell you.'"

Oh, and Foibles, you are the incredible one here. All I can do is sit here and ROFL in amazement that you would say such things in response to my reality.

[pokemonfan]

Darwin is not known for his ideas on the creation of the universe, at least get that part straight before you make a debate thread.

1.Based on what I've seen so far (I have not read everything) I think I should rename the thread does anyone know how I can do that?

2. Ultimate wall of text! Its super effective (sorry but I just loved that joke)

3. for this thread I'm going to have to set apart some quality reading time to read everything.

4. I never thought this thread would generate so much discussion. Not that lots of people have posted its more like the many walls of texts countered by other text walls.

[Okami]

Exactly how I feel... and the fact modern Bibles omit the MOST IMPORTANT part of the baptism part or cast doubt on it (see if Acts 8:37 is in your Bible or not) makes me wonder if this apostate age will ever get it right :-/

Shoot, sorry for my late response to this, Wraith. I got so caught up! In my primary Bible , it goes from Acts 36:

As the rode along, they came to some water, and the eunuch said "Look, there's some water! Why can't I be baptized?"* to Acts 38: He ordered the carriage to stop, and they went down into the water, and Philip baptized him.

HOWEVER, there's that *.

{Okami smiles} :]

Which then goes down to the footnotes: Some manuscripts add Verse 37, "You can." Philip answered, "if you believe with all your heart." And the eunuch replied, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

My Bible does that in a lot of areas, though. It adds texts that have been omitted or only found in certain manuscripts to the footnotes. Which is nice, because it means that they are still there! And I agree, it is most definately important when it comes to baptism...going back to what my pastor says!

[Zafur]

Okami, kuoleva is basically saying that there is no proof that the Bible is actually related to God, at all. One could lie about having the Holy Spirit guide them to write a book. Saying that it's the Holy Spirit doesn't prove it to people, especially ~2000 years later.

Unless you knew that and was just clarifying about the Holy Spirit for other reasons...

____

... Honestly, I'm getting a bit "turned off" at the the repeated mentioning of humans being so bad. It's quite obvious we're not perfect, but we were created in his image. So... Why is this mentioned so much in almost every other post? Lol I saw in some it was actually related but... it seemed thrown in too much. Religious debates seem to be quite depressing. O_o;;

___

@pokemonfan: Of course it has! Religion is always the cause for a lot of debate. And... walls of texts in debates are... Kind of needed, most of the time. Especially since you usually need to back things up and whatnot.

[Concorde105]

I'm pretty much atheist, and so I kinda believe in Darwin's theory about evolution. I don't know, maybe there was some kind of divine being that gave us a push out the door and might be watching over us right now. But creation of the universe? That, I am way out of my depth. i have no idea what could have happened, although I do think that the science is right. OK, that was pretty much a rant for me on these kinds of subjects.

See ya.

[wraith89]

Shoot, sorry for my late response to this, Wraith. I got so caught up! In my primary Bible , it goes from Acts 36:

As the rode along, they came to some water, and the eunuch said "Look, there's some water! Why can't I be baptized?"* to Acts 38: He ordered the carriage to stop, and they went down into the water, and Philip baptized him.

HOWEVER, there's that *.

{Okami smiles} :]

Which then goes down to the footnotes: Some manuscripts add Verse 37, "You can." Philip answered, "if you believe with all your heart." And the eunuch replied, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

My Bible does that in a lot of areas, though. It adds texts that have been omitted or only found in certain manuscripts to the footnotes. Which is nice, because it means that they are still there! And I agree, it is most definately important when it comes to baptism...going back to what my pastor says!

Why would that verse along with others like Matthew 18:11 be put in the footnotes? I am of the belief that these Minority Texts (Codex Vaticanus and Sinaiticus) are screwed up. The footnotes somewhat cast doubts on the readers by putting "some manuscripts say"... ringing Genesis 3:1 into my mind, where the serpent says "Yea, hath God said..." subtly deceiving their readers into thinking maybe these parts are interpolations or whatnot. I want the WHOLE Word... nothing BUT the whole word, not footnotes stating "this may or may not have been here..." Notice how those omissions are conveniently important verses... and I'm not liking that.

I'm pretty much atheist, and so I kinda believe in Darwin's theory about evolution. I don't know, maybe there was some kind of divine being that gave us a push out the door and might be watching over us right now. But creation of the universe? That, I am way out of my depth. i have no idea what could have happened, although I do think that the science is right. OK, that was pretty much a rant for me on these kinds of subjects.

See ya.

So WHAT convinces you to think that evolution is right? There has to be a driving force other than saying "it's the opposite of the unthinkable special creation; therefore it must be right"... you'll need to base it on facts. Science cannot prove EVERYTHING... and many times their theories are based on assumptions.

I am NOT against science. I do science myself... but using it the wrong way and saying it is the answer to everything is wrong. And no, the answer is NOT 42.

Edited May 6, 2009 by wraith89

[Okami]

Yeah I know =/ I just always overclarify....sorry.

Hm...but then what comes of it when the earliest manuscripts of the Bible are found to be written within 200 years of the actual dates of happening...I believe the earliest found was written about 30 years afterwards.

And yet some of today's most (Oh, what's the word?) valuable....important....books on history, were written within 400 years or later (Up to 1000 or even more) of the events of which they were written...

Which one is more likely to be accurate?

I mean, we lose information as time goes on, either way. But the thing is, people are more likely to accept those other manuscripts as real and true before they're going to accept that a manuscript of the gospel of Luke is also real and true. It's really sad when you research it, because both have credentials for different reasons. Credibility should be given to the early-age Christians because they wrote down what Jesus said and preserved it as they remember it.

Think about it, sometimes the disciples talk about themselves in openly human ways. They're basically dumber than dirt sometimes, and it opens them up as realistic characters, because why would someone making it up bother with such miniscule and plain STUPID details as some of the things written.

I mean, come on, even after Jesus died, they forgot that He said He would raise again on the third day...instead of being happy and excited that Jesus was going to be raised, they were huddled in fear in a locked building. They simply forgot. What sort of IDIOT forgets that their Lord is coming back to redeem them?! I know I certainly wouldn't! I would be countining the hours "Okay guys, Jesus' comin' back in approximately 36 hours..." sort of dealio.

I guess that's why I love the Twelve (well, Eleven at this point....) because they show that all of us make mistakes...

And remember, Jesus told Mary to go "Tell the disciples, and Peter." Peter, who had denied Him, He was now forgiving. And later He asks Peter three times "Do you love me?" And Peter's all like "Uh...yeah, of course I love you!" (And probably mumbling in frustration 'Why are You asking me this...You know the answer, Jesus!!') And Jesus then replied "Feed my sheep." It's Jesus' simple way of making up the thing that was wronged.

Hah...overclarification again. I got excited with this one!!

[wraith89]

There are NO originals... remember that :-/

We do have 5000 + manuscripts of the New Testament though (more than any other books... the runner up Homer's writings only number around 600... lame -__-)... but to take the words of the minority texts where they don't even agree with each other seems to question these new translations. Plus the whole new translations of the Bible stuff started by the heretics Westcott and Hort. I don't like that... I don't like that at all.

If God promised to preserve His words, He DID preserve His words in one way or another. I'm of the opinion it is the King James Version (based off Erasmus's Textus Receptus which was based off the Majority Texts) after studying this issue for a while. You don't have to agree with me, but I've done my research on this, and I wholeheartedly believe the modern Bibles are of error. Now I'm not saying there cannot be new translations of the Bible. It would be nice if we did, but in this apostate age, I highly doubt anyone can come up with a good one unless they were used by God to do so. I was REALLY hoping it was the New King James Version, but even that one has errors. I don't feel like explaining the history of the texts right now... and we should get back to creationism vs evolution.

I mean, come on, even after Jesus died, they forgot that He said He would raise again on the third day...instead of being happy and excited that Jesus was going to be raised, they were huddled in fear in a locked building. They simply forgot. What sort of IDIOT forgets that their Lord is coming back to redeem them?! I know I certainly wouldn't! I would be countining the hours "Okay guys, Jesus' comin' back in approximately 36 hours..." sort of dealio.

I guess that's why I love the Twelve (well, Eleven at this point....) because they show that all of us make mistakes...

And remember, Jesus told Mary to go "Tell the disciples, and Peter." Peter, who had denied Him, He was now forgiving. And later He asks Peter three times "Do you love me?" And Peter's all like "Uh...yeah, of course I love you!" (And probably mumbling in frustration 'Why are You asking me this...You know the answer, Jesus!!') And Jesus then replied "Feed my sheep." It's Jesus' simple way of making up the thing that was wronged.

I love this part. At one point, they're all fraidy cats and run away like chicken when the Roman officials grab Jesus... and after a certain miraculous event, the disciples are brave and are willing to risk their lives... along with many other followers. Would anyone have lived and died for a lie? They knew the resurrection would have happened... and Christianity still remains strong today, despite the numerous opposition occurring. This demands a closer examination on why it really is. I'll tell you why... because he has risen from the grave!

[Zafur]

Don't need to say sorry, I think I over clarify sometimes also...

I HAVE heard that people usually go to the King James version of the Bible when they want to check for the closest translation possible.

And yeah, I'm pretty sure that we may never be able to explain everything with science, but I sure hope we get close. :3

[Okami]

Hey, science has a special place in my heart. I love learning about the human anatomy. I would love to see advances in research on autism and cancer and other disorders and the like. And I simply ADORE the complexity that we call the brain.

That's why I don't like it when people simply brush aside my beliefs and why I tend to clarify things. The fact is, I just feel sometimes like I've got the best of both worlds...why would anyone want to crush that? Wait, nevermind, I know that answer. I just wish people would respect it. I've got a bit of an overactive emotional drive and hypothalamus, people: that's how my relationship with Jesus Christ is so so REAL. ;P

I can be a completely realistic person while also being a very spiritually mature one as well. I firmly believe it. While others may not, it does not sway my views any.

Which then goes back to my original post, of course.

[Enkidu]

Science cannot prove EVERYTHING... and many times their theories are based on assumptions.

Science doesn't aim to prove everything, maybe the people that represent science do, but its similar to how the people who represent religion aren't always acting in the right. That doesn't demerit religion for you, does it?

Science is our way as rational beings to attempt to try and understand the universe. We aren't aiming to "prove everything" but it is our attempt to logically understand the natural world. Science is not claiming ( the way religion IS claiming ) that we know everything. But unlike religion, science can be proven wrong, and that act of proving it wrong ( IE: through evidence ) is what science is about.

[Zafur]

I love science too. I'm an animal person and... One for genetics, actually. <3

...Which kind of explains my stance in this thread, I guess. Lol

But I love knowing about other random parts of science too.

...Getting way too off topic. ><

[Concorde105]

So WHAT convinces you to think that evolution is right? There has to be a driving force other than saying "it's the opposite of the unthinkable special creation; therefore it must be right"... you'll need to base it on facts. Science cannot prove EVERYTHING... and many times their theories are based on assumptions.

OK, whoa, wraith89; I never said that science was right and special creation was wrong; I'm sorry if you interpreted it that way. What I meant to say was that there could have been special creation, I just believe that Darwin's theory was correct. And, now, of course, chickens supposedly evolved from T. Rexes. That does seem a bit odd... But, really. I know Pokémonfan said that there was never a transspecies fossil found; that doesn't mean that there aren't any. I'm sorry, I just believe that things evolved, because if a divine force helped us, where did that divine force come from? Was it created by another? Because if that happened, the one that created ours was probably created by another, which was most likely created by another, and so on and so on. I'm not gonna get in the way of your beliefs, and this is starting to be too philisophical for me. So, uh... Bye, people.

EDIT: Like Endiku said:

Science is our way as rational beings to attempt to try and understand the universe. We aren't aiming to "prove everything" but it is our attempt to logically understand the natural world. Science is not claiming ( the way religion IS claiming ) that we know everything. But unlike religion, science can be proven wrong, and that act of proving it wrong ( IE: through evidence ) is what science is about.

I totally agree with this.

Oh yeah. /end rant.

[Varna]

I'd just like to point out the loveliest logical fallacy I've seen repeatedly in this thread:

1. The Bible says that God is real.

2. The Bible is the Word of God.

---

Therefore, God is real.

SORRY! DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT. :< If you can't see why this is a huge mistake, I don't think anyone can help you.

[kuoleva]

I'd just like to point out the loveliest logical fallacy I've seen repeatedly in this thread:

1. The Bible says that God is real.

2. The Bible is the Word of God.

---

Therefore, God is real.

SORRY! DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT. :< If you can't see why this is a huge mistake, I don't think anyone can help you.

/me agrees completely.

Really. Just... Really. I don't think it's possible to explain to people just because a books says so, does not make it true. A book is a book. Ink printed on sheets of dead trees. Nothing can or will make it otherwise. If it is the word of god, so be it. But for all we know, it's just a book. A horribly mistranslated book that could have been the product of a few drunk guys going, "Hey, we should write a book and say it's the word of god just to screw with people, and see if anyone believes it."

That's just my opinion, though. Please, just please with the "MAH BOOK SAID IT SO IT'S TRUE". >.< I'm not denying the fact that it accurately (or as accurately as we know) details historical events. But things like the plagues? Things that could be explained either by nature or some crazy person. Here I go with conspiracy corner, but come on. I'm not denying the fact that Jesus was real, but that he was the son of god? Again, maybe some of his drunk buddies, said "lol we should write a book, and make you the son of god. I bet people would buy it".

I'm not saying your beliefs are wrong, I'm just saying a book has to be the WORST crutch you could use in an argument. If you're going to use the bible, can I use the Necronomicon?

/endrant

[Okami]

As one of my favorite songs states:

I'm not claiming to hold all the answers, but I'm holding on to the One who does~ 33Miles

That's my view, simply put. :]

Oh...and I had another good laugh at that one post that related me to a heroin addict today...or rather, called me a heroin addict. Just because, today being NDoP...it was like, no I'm not addicted to heroin...I'm addicted to JESUS~ <3 lovelovelove.

Time in prayer is always time well spent for me. We always have a good laugh. [Thanks Lord, love You!]

[Zafur]

Wait. What? Doesn't a velociraptor count as "transspecies"?

From Wikipedia:

Fossils of dromaeosaurids more primitive than Velociraptor are known to have had feathers covering their bodies, and fully-developed, feathered wings. The fact that the ancestors of Velociraptor were feathered and possibly capable of flight long suggested to paleontologists that Velociraptor bore feathers as well, since even flightless birds today retain most of their feathers.

In September 2007, researchers found quill knobs on the forearm of a Velociraptor found in Mongolia. These bumps on bird wing bones show where feathers anchor, and their presence on Velociraptor indicate it too had feathers. According to paleontologist Alan Turner,

A lack of quill knobs does not necessarily mean that a dinosaur did not have feathers. Finding quill knobs on Velociraptor, though, means that it definitely had feathers. This is something we'd long suspected, but no one had been able to prove.

___

The more that we learn about these animals the more we find that there is basically no difference between birds and their closely related dinosaur ancestors like velociraptor. Both have wishbones, brooded their nests, possess hollow bones, and were covered in feathers. If animals like velociraptor were alive today our first impression would be that they were just very unusual looking birds.

___

According to Turner and co-authors Norell and Peter Makovicky, quill knobs are not found in all prehistoric birds, and their absence does not mean that an animal was not feathered – flamingos, for example, have no quill knobs. However, their presence confirms that Velociraptor bore modern-style wing feathers, with a rachis and vane formed by barbs.

[foibles]

OK, whoa, wraith89; I never said that science was right and special creation was wrong; I'm sorry if you interpreted it that way. What I meant to say was that there could have been special creation, I just believe that Darwin's theory was correct. And, now, of course, chickens supposedly evolved from T. Rexes. That does seem a bit odd... But, really. I know Pokémonfan said that there was never a transspecies fossil found; that doesn't mean that there aren't any. I'm sorry, I just believe that things evolved, because if a divine force helped us, where did that divine force come from? Was it created by another? Because if that happened, the one that created ours was probably created by another, which was most likely created by another, and so on and so on. I'm not gonna get in the way of your beliefs, and this is starting to be too philisophical for me. So, uh... Bye, people.

EDIT: Like Endiku said:

I totally agree with this.

Oh yeah. /end rant.

There is nothing "philosophical" about this. Belief in anything really should be grounded in reality. When all the evidence points in one direction, and people still think otherwise, it is usually called stupidity. People really need to stop bending over backwards like this and stand up for what all evidence points toward.

And that other post simply makes you seem more jesus addicted. Seriously, it's not something to be proud of.

[girox]

hum... Choosing between the bible and darwin... well... I'd Choose Arceus

Don't want to be rude (I'm catholic and all...) but the bible is like an antique sci fi novel and darwin... well he believed we and teh monkeyz were cousins... so yeah I stick with Arceus

[Enkidu]

I really think someone should delete that last post, it's ignorant to no end.

By simply saying

well he believed we and teh monkeyz were cousins

it shows your lack of even a pathetic attempt to understand the theory, meaning I believe you don't even have a right to say it's wrong.

Your faith also seems ill met if your calling the bible an Antique Science fiction novel as well.

[girox]

I really think someone should delete that last post, it's ignorant to no end.

By simply saying it shows your lack of even a pathetic attempt to understand the theory, meaning I believe you don't even have a right to say it's wrong.

Your faith also seems ill met if your calling the bible an Antique Science fiction novel as well.

It was just a short and "fun" way to say it... gosh I'M SORRY and yes my faith isn't what it used to be 13 years ago I have my reasons why to think like that and I do know about darwin's theory

gee...

[Okami]

I think it's mostly in your wording, Girox. I guess because this is a more mature-based discussion thread, the way you put it just wasn't fitting for some others =/

You're forgiven, though. :]