Water Vs Fire!!

[Enkidu]

Here's the ultimate arguement for water types.

There are 7 Great water types in the OU metagame which consists of 49 Pokemon. Why is water so great?

1) Lack of grass moves. 99% of the time if a Pokemon uses a grass move its going to be an unSTABbed Grass knot. Very few Pokemon learn Grass Knot. There's probably only around 5 on OU that do.

2) Lack of physical electric moves. The strongest physical electric move you'll see is an unSTABbed Thunder Punch. Water types with naturally high defense can shrug this off and heal the damage.

3) Most of the water types have high special defense. The most common anti-water move is a special attack. This is why for a long time Suicune was "OMG NO WEAK!" because of Calm Mind. Sure you could use thunderpunch, but with 100 HP and 115 defense you're only laughing at yourself.

Water types are fearful and powerful. There are 7 OU waters. There are only 2 OU Fires. You can blame

Thats actually untrue many pokemon can learn grass moves ( almost half of OU )

Starmie/Breloom/Metagross/Gengar/Alakazam/Latias/Togekiss/Abomnasnow/Bronzong/Empoleon/Infernape/Blissey/Cresselia/Flygon are the ones I found in a matter of seconds that can learn grass moves. ( decent ones anyway )

The fact remains that grass type attacks will be passed up in favor of ones that offer MUCH better coverage anyway. See thunderbolt/Ice beam.

Now I keep hearing water "plays more defensively" but I find this largely untrue, water types are relegated to switching in and stopping powerful fire types ( Infernape/heatran) and dragons ( Flygon/Salamence/Dragonite ) making them just as offensive as everyone else, just with more bulk. Granted water "walls" fire but thats like saying flying types wall ground types so that makes them better.

Fire is not just a hit and run type! Even more so as your only referencing Infernape ( Which is ONE fire type ) There are 17 total fire types ( including Legendary's but not including Not fully evolved pokemon ) but there are 50 total water types ( again not counting NFE's, but counting legendary's. )

2/17 in OU versus 7/50 !

It's really an unfair comparison to say that water types have more "versatility" just because their are more of them, and in terms of % of usable pokemon out of the total, its actually in fire types favor.

The only reason Fire types CANNOT be run defensively most of the time is that GIANT stealth rock weakness, meaning they cannot afford to switch in and out very often ( with the exception of heatran who makes a amazing wall if used right. )

Ugh, done. I don't even like fire types that much. Sheesh.

[Mysteryman]

Water types pwn

[wraith89]

Thats actually untrue many pokemon can learn grass moves ( almost half of OU )

Starmie/Breloom/Metagross/Gengar/Alakazam/Latias/Togekiss/Abomnasnow/Bronzong/Empoleon/Infernape/Blissey/Cresselia/Flygon are the ones I found in a matter of seconds that can learn grass moves. ( decent ones anyway )

The fact remains that grass type attacks will be passed up in favor of ones that offer MUCH better coverage anyway.

Granted water "walls" fire but thats like saying flying types wall ground types so that makes them better. <- Totally wrong.

Fire is not just a hit and run type! Even more so as your only referencing Infernape ( Which is ONE fire type ) There are 17 total fire types ( including Legendary's but not including Not fully evolved pokemon ) but there are 50 total water types ( again not counting NFE's, but counting legendary's. )

2/17 in OU versus 7/50 !

It's really an unfair comparison to say that water types have more "versatility" just because their are more of them, and in terms of % of usable pokemon out of the total, its actually in fire types favor.

The only reason Fire types CANNOT be run defensively most of the time is that GIANT stealth rock weakness, meaning they cannot afford to switch in and out very often ( with the exception of heatran who makes a amazing wall if used right. )

Ugh, done. I don't even like fire types that much. Sheesh.

I think Destati meant lack of STAB users of Grass Knot in OU... but Grass Knot is learned by ALMOST anything, which befuddles me to no end :-/

And Fire types do vary for the most part, sure... but in the end they are trying to sweep... like Ninetales who has these support moves, but also uses Nasty Plot to give her a chance to sweep.

The unfair part is what I said before. You've read my post, right?

Yeah, defensive fire types = NOT their nature! Fire has amazing coverage and offensive power, but should be weak defensively just like normal fire. Earthquakes and Surfs being thrown everywhere... and those Stealth Rocks @_@

[Enkidu]

And Fire types do vary for the most part, sure... but in the end they are trying to sweep... like Ninetales who has these support moves, but also uses Nasty Plot to give her a chance to sweep.

The same way CM/CroCune and Cursepert try to sweep? Choice specs vaporeon? Sub Petaya/Agility Empoleon? Raindance dragon dance kingdra? CB aqua jet Azumarill? DD gyarados? There are more offensive Water types than their are fire types.

3 is mostly because of typing, I guess. Water types are only weak to two types and have very good defenses generally. Fire types are weak to Stealth Rocks and the ever common Earthquake for the most part. The only two OU Fire types, as you notice, are sweepers. To be a good fire type, you need to be strong. To be a good Water type, you need to be very defensive. I guess that's my input.

Yea, buts more metagame oriented than stat/ability wise.

[wraith89]

The same way CM/CroCune and Cursepert try to sweep? Choice specs vaporeon? Sub Petaya/Agility Empoleon? Raindance dragon dance kingdra? CB aqua jet Azumarill? DD gyarados? There are more offensive Water types than their are fire types.

Think percentage wise. Most fires are sweepers.

[Enkidu]

8.5 of the 17 fire types are sweepers, with the other's being status inducers/Walls.

( I say .5 because there is one that does both...but isn't very good at either but outside of that has no real role )

Out of the 50 water types, the majority of them are sweepers themselves, with only something like 15 of them being walls/ defensive pokemon. So I'm still going with bad comparison.

[pokemonfan]

Yeah, well the name some Enkidu. That would be nice. Are they decent ones? I mean some of the best water types, in my opinion, are starters I really dont like the other water pokemon in the games (with the exception of poliwhirl I love him and vaporeon) I just see water types as well more defensive because of their more bulky evolutions. I dont think cyndaquil puts on that much weight..and neither does chimchar and ponyta doesn't get that much bigger, magby grows but steadily there isn't a huge leap like from wooper to quagsire or marshtomp to swampert. Plus, when considering the legendaries I think kyogre suicoone, and palkia have a large advantage over the other legendaries. Plus, Kyogre has always been somewhat like my favorite legendary. Kyogre (drizzle ability) suicoone (covers grass weakness with ice moves) and palkia (water + dragon type=a high resistance to most types.

Although, I'm quite bias to water types I realize the fire type advantages. Next time I play a generation IV game I will pick chimchar because I've grown somewhat tired of the constant water choosing with all of my generation IV games. Plus, in firered I chose charmander because charizard is awesome but I still think water types are better. Plus blastoise did not strike my fancy so I did not choose squirtle. I was very close to choosing bulbasaur though.

[Destati]

Starmie/Breloom/Metagross/Gengar/Alakazam/Latias/Togekiss/Abomnasnow/Bronzong/Empoleon/Infernape/Blissey/Cresselia/Flygon

Energy Ball is always outclassed by T-bolt. Most pokemon that learn Energy Ball also learn T-bolt. And of course I exaggerated a bit, its more like 10-15, but it also has to deal with whether or not its a good choice to use Grass Knot on that set and if the Pokemon is meant to attack like that. Also, Giga Drain isn't going to do crap for Flygon = D

The reason water is so powerful in ubers is because of the boosts it gives. Boost to water moves. Boost to Thunder Accuracy. Kyogre and Palkia learn those moves, as does Manaphy. Groudon... makes it pretty so fire can deal more damage and Pokemon can heal more health with synthesis/solarbeam charges faster blah blah. There's no real strength in ubers for that though. Skymin and Ho-oh work nicely along side Groudon, but thats it. You need a friggen Exeguttor to use Solar Beam because Groudon's sp. atk isn't going to penetrate Kyogre at all.

And Fire types were bad this metagame even before SR got popular. The early metagame was about one thing: Garchomp and how to counter it. Unfortunately for Fire Types, Garchomp and its counters both happened to counter fire types.

[pokemonfan]

?Cant a water type counter garchomp with a move like surf?

[ZMaster]

?Cant a water type counter garchomp with a move like surf?

Garchomp is also Dragon type, nullifying it's Ground weakness.

I vote for Water types. Although Fire types are scarce, they are still over-favored. It would be nice to see more Fire types, but not if they all out-speed water types.

[wraith89]

Blah. I actually like Fire types, but once Infernape hit the scene, I only started hating Infernape really... that's about all. Electrics are a bigger pain really. They're the giants of this metagame: one weakness, very fast, very strong, not weak to Stealth Rock naturally... so Fire types are really mini-Electrics. To tell you the truth, I prefer Infernape over Electrics any day.

And as for the countering Garchomp... not really. Once Yachechomp with Swords Dance came in... that thing tore down so many Pokemon that it took THREE Pokemon to take the menace down. That's why it was banned to ubers, I guess, or it was those electrics who complained they had a very powerful counter and therefore voted the land shark out so they'll rule the metagame, but I don't know what I'm talking about... However, I took down Garchomp with Vaporeon... but only when Garchomp was holding Life orb...

[Narwhal]

I cannot pick because Swampert and Blaziken are always in my party on Diamond. I like both equally.

[wraith89]

I cannot pick because Swampert and Blaziken are always in my party on Diamond. I like both equally.

That's awesome. I like Water-Fire synergy

I can't wait until a Fire/Water type comes out... that'd be cool... (thinks of Antipode from Chronotrigger... meh)

[pokemonfan]

A water and fire type? That just sounds impossible. Anyway, I guess you may be right on the garchomp thing but I'm not to sure. I think that a decent water type could bring him down. As for the conspiracy with the electric types I think you are definitely wrong there. I just dont know. I still say water, I mean you cant even dream of a fire type bringing down a garchomp.

[wraith89]

A water and fire type? That just sounds impossible. Anyway, I guess you may be right on the garchomp thing but I'm not to sure. I think that a decent water type could bring him down. As for the conspiracy with the electric types I think you are definitely wrong there. I just dont know. I still say water, I mean you cant even dream of a fire type bringing down a garchomp.

You read the Bible, right?

Read Job 41 and tell me about the sea creature Leviathan who breathes fire... how's that?

BTW Leviathan is a dragon... a dinosaur... if your footnotes say something like "a Nile Crocodile" or "a whale" do read that passage and tell me any of those creatures can breathe fire or survive hits from arrows, swords, and spears...

Edited May 2, 2009 by wraith89

[ZMaster]

You read the Bible, right?

Read Job 41 and tell me about the sea creature Leviathan who breathes fire... how's that?

LoL.

Anyhow, a Water/Fire type would be really cool =D It would be insane.

A Elec/Ground would be nice as well lol! Imagine they make an evolution for Pikachu, branching to the Elec/Ground type? Pretty damn awesome.

[wraith89]

LoL.

Anyhow, a Water/Fire type would be really cool =D It would be insane.

A Elec/Ground would be nice as well lol! Imagine they make an evolution for Pikachu, branching to the Elec/Ground type? Pretty **** awesome.

Electrics need more dual types, I agree... but don't make them so broken!

[ZMaster]

Electrics need more dual types, I agree... but don't make them so broken!

Physical Electric/Ground type would be a nice addition. The available weakness would be grass and ice, though.

Water/Fire would probably be weak to Electric still, but I have yet to check on the Move Effective Pokétch App.

A funny type would be Electric/Bug

[wraith89]

Electric/Bug sounds cool. Volbeat and Illumise are the closest examples we can get... but they're not part Electric.

[Narwhal]

An electric/poison pokemon would be cool, but... back to fire vs water. I use both in double battles because normally one of them is super effective, because Blaziken has blaze kick and double kick that covers 2 types, and Swampert with muddy water and earthquake covers 2 types, so they are super effective on normal/grass/ice etc. with Blaziken and electric/fire/rock/ground etc. on Swampert.

[kuoleva]

I personally like fire, but I think they're going to get desperate with types, and start making ones that make no sense. I'm honestly waiting for Fire/Ice, or Electric/Ground. >.<

I hardly ever use water in battles, if I need to go against a fire, I bring ground, to cover both fire and electricity. Unless it's also part ice, I never have water pokemon. Kyogre is the only water pokemon I use. Other than the occasional Vaporeon, when I need a surf and don't feel like bringing my beaver.

[Enkidu]

Yeah, well then name some Enkidu. That would be nice. Are they decent ones? I mean some of the best water types, in my opinion, are starters. I really dont like the other water pokemon in the games (with the exception of poliwhirl I love him and vaporeon) I just see water types as well more defensive because of their more bulky evolutions. I dont think cyndaquil puts on that much weight..and neither does chimchar and ponyta doesn't get that much bigger, magby grows but steadily there isn't a huge leap like from wooper to quagsire or marshtomp to swampert. Plus, when considering the legendary's I think kyogre suicune, and palkia have a large advantage over the other legendary's. Plus, Kyogre has always been somewhat like my favorite legendary. Kyogre (drizzle ability) suicune (covers grass weakness with ice moves) and palkia (water + dragon type=a high resistance to most types. )

Although, I'm quite bias to water types I realize the fire type advantages. Next time I play a generation IV game I will pick chimchar because I've grown somewhat tired of the constant water choosing with all of my generation IV games. Plus, in fire Red I chose charmander because charizard is awesome but I still think water types are better. Plus blastoise did not strike my fancy so I did not choose squirtle. I was very close to choosing bulbasaur though.

Why should I have to name ANYTHING when everyone's only referencing 2 water pokemon as being defensive? The jist of what you guys have been saying is " WATER POKEMON ARE DEFENSIVE BECAUSE CM SUICUNE USED TO BE UNSTOPPABLE " In turn why do I have look shit up? Go do it yourself.

But for the sake of arguement, these fire types are bulky ( but as people say bulk is wasted on fire types )

Arcanine,Camerupt,Entei,Flareon, Ho-oh,Heatran Macargo, Moltres and Torkoal. Thats 9 of the 17 fire types. Which for arguments sake, we will call 50 % Although they can also run offensive sets.

Water types have defensively:

Bibarel, Blastoise, Cloyster, Empoleon, Gastrodon, Gyarados, Lanturn, Lapras, Milotic, Walrein, Suicune, Swampert, Vaporeon Whiscash, Quagsire, Slowbro,Slowking, Ludicolo and Matine.

Also as you can see, many of these guys can also run offensive sets.

Thats 19/50 nowhere near close to half. Lets say I even missed 5 Pokemon( which I don't think I did ) Thats still under half of what fire has.

I don't even know what I'm arguing anymore. Ugh.

[wraith89]

Why should I have to name ANYTHING when everyone's only referencing 2 water pokemon as being defensive? The jist of what you guys have been saying is " WATER POKEMON ARE DEFENSIVE BECAUSE CM SUICUNE USED TO BE UNSTOPPABLE " In turn why do I have look $H!X up? Go do it yourself.

But for the sake of arguement, these fire types are bulky ( but as people say bulk is wasted on fire types )

Arcanine,Camerupt,Entei,Flareon, Ho-oh,Heatran Macargo, Moltres and Torkoal. Thats 9 of the 17 fire types. Which for arguments sake, we will call 50 % Although they can also run offensive sets.

Water types have defensively:

Bibarel, Blastoise, Cloyster, Empoleon, Gastrodon, Gyarados, Lanturn, Lapras, Milotic, Walrein, Suicune, Swampert, Vaporeon, Whiscash, Quagsire, Slowbro, Slowking, Ludicolo and Mantine.

Also as you can see, many of these guys can also run offensive sets.

Thats 19/50 nowhere near close to half. Lets say I even missed 5 Pokemon( which I don't think I did ) Thats still under half of what fire has.

I don't even know what I'm arguing anymore. Ugh.

Whoa! Chill... no need to get serious :-/

This topic's become more of a "who's better" topic when no one really is. It's more of a which one do you prefer thing... so yeah, let's just stick with that. I don't see why you're so angry about it

[Enkidu]

I hate getting responses like

Yeah, well then name some Enkidu. That would be nice. Are they decent ones?

" Wheres your proof" when no one else ( except destati ) has even given me any numbers/information to work with.

This whole thread has mostly been " I THINK WATER, SO ITS BETTER or I LIKE FIRE, SO ITS BETTER" which isn't answering the question.

Edit* heres the original question

Ok, there has always been this age long debate about which is better. Now, in relation to pokemon which types are better water types or fire types. Forget the fact that water types can own fire types naturally (I'm bias towards water) and please back up your reasoning.

[wraith89]

I hate getting responses like

" Wheres your proof" when no one else ( except destati ) has even given me any numbers/information to work with.

This whole thread has mostly been " I THINK WATER, SO ITS BETTER or I LIKE FIRE, SO ITS BETTER" which isn't answering the question.

It's PF though... he doesn't know any better about the deep aspects of competitive battling if you haven't been following his posts. Take it easy on him and try to know your audiences :-/

And yeah, these type of arguments are supposed to be objective, not subjective... I'd give out figures, but I was defending the fire types that whole time just to play Devil's Advocate with PF.