Speculation: Metagame changes/ New pokemon's roles

[Tbird]

Everything is so broken.

I wanted to post some thoughts... But that's all I can think of right now .

Someone grab me a coke, some popcorn, put some jazz on and let's watch this metagame break right in two.

[wraith89]

If Lightningrod indeed works like Mystery Dungeon's Lightningrod now, then Seaking is very viable. However... Zapdos gets Lightningrod? What did his two siblings get? Snow Cloak and Flame Body! Talk about more favoritism again... I knew it all along. Gamefreak's in love with that Thunderbird and trying to make us forget about the other two, mostly Articuno. Moltres is very good but that 100 base attack is a troll if it has nothing to use with it. I have a feeling they're going to make Zapdos the superbird and leave the other two to obscurity... it's been their plan all along.

And Tbird, I will gladly join you. Just pass me the popcorn and just sit back and relax as the chaos ensues...

[Gin]

When we first saw Gear come out, I thought it was neat. Interesting art, probably my favorite of the generation. But now, with its evo, it's guaranteed to be awesome. With

HP: 60

Atk: 100

Def: 115

SpA: 70

SpD: 85

Spe: 90

base stats, We can see that this guy has physical bulk typical of a steel, but GREAT attack and speed. While it may seem kind of meh compared to other, better sweepers, let's look at the movepool. Gear Chang is the big draw. +1 attack, +2 speed. This lets us outrun revenge killers, and the deadly SPEED BOOSTIKEN! Gear Saucer is a kind of meh STAB, but it can break through subs. I wish it had Meteor Mash, though, for increased sweepage. Volt Change for a pseudo Uturn (Tbird knows what I'm thinking there) to get out of Magnezone, and you're set.

[Tbird]

When we first saw Gear come out, I thought it was neat. Interesting art, probably my favorite of the generation. But now, with its evo, it's guaranteed to be awesome. With

HP: 60

Atk: 100

Def: 115

SpA: 70

SpD: 85

Spe: 90

base stats, We can see that this guy has physical bulk typical of a steel, but GREAT attack and speed. While it may seem kind of meh compared to other, better sweepers, let's look at the movepool. Gear Chang is the big draw. +1 attack, +2 speed. This lets us outrun revenge killers, and the deadly SPEED BOOSTIKEN! Gear Saucer is a kind of meh STAB, but it can break through subs. I wish it had Meteor Mash, though, for increased sweepage.

Gigigigiiggiigigear is one that when I looked at it I thought 'well it's not bad but it's not breaking the game'. It's got the physical defence of weezing, with opportunity to start attacking stuff So I don't mind it. It looks ugly as hell, but it'll be a very surprising pokemon to see in any case. I don't think magnezone will be the problem, however, chandelierthing will be. IIRC, that has stab fire and outspeeds it .

Volt Change for a pseudo Uturn (Tbird knows what I'm thinking there) to get out of Magnezone, and you're set.

.. Aww crap not again

I guess I'll comment on some of the abilities floating around.

First one that has caught my eye is slip-through. This ability allows a pokemon to 'get behind enemy walls and attack.' Sort of a reflect/ Lightscreen negator. Distribution isn't really anything to phone home about, however someone who does look like they will enjoy it is spiritomb, as the CB version often plays the lead role a lot It can make much better use of coming up against double screening leads.

Crobat also gets this ability, so it may help him with Nasty plot sets and such like. I'm not sure, but if it means he can get passed safe guard too, then he'll be the only thing capable of putting things to sleep if there's a safe guarder on the opposing team, which is pretty cool.

The sec0ond one would be encourage. For losing the secondary effect of a move the move gains more power ... Yay . Not quite sure how far this ability extends (such as Could Tauros pwn with giga impact and not have to recharge afterwards?) However we know that if it can freeze, paralyse or flinch etc etc, it now gains a power boost.

A pokemon that has caught my eye is the lovely mixed wall breaker, Nidoking. Running sets that most always have a fire blast here, or a Tbolt there, it can really make good use of the ability considering it's not-that-great attacking power. What it essentially means is that while it's running that ability, It can invest more heavily in speed/ Attack, as ice beam and thunderbolt will gain a boost, and as such not need as much investment to at least allow them to break even, while their attacking power gets boosted by more EVs being allowed to be pumped... fun time .

[ASuch]

People...There will always be some "Game Breaking" pokemon. That's the way it is. If there was no game breaking pokemon, then people would say things like "Duh, this generation has the weakest and St00pidist pokemon EVER!" Appreciate the game for what it is. Accept change. Change happens. If they change something, it's their right to. They make the game. Sure we have pokemon hacks, but they try to impress you with different things. A lot of people are just focusing on the pokemon. Maybe try focusing on some other changes. Wow, the battle sprites aren't static. Gee that makes it more liking. Thats new. There will be always some pokemon you won't like. Just appreciate that they give you these games.

[Tbird]

Hey I've been playing the game, and I absolutely love it. The thing is the pokemon, IMO, fail. Most by looks, others due to lazy stat distribution and others just because ... well look at that thing that looks like a regurgitated Smeargle and tell me it isn't fail .

As for things not being broken ... there's a 180 BP move that has the drawback of 'hurts allies'... Come on man, that's broken no matter how you look at it. Though I will give you that if everything is broken then nothing is, and the ones that are less broken will merely fall to UU, like we've seen in every generation.

Hell this generation has really just thrown a cat amongst the pigeons ... or whatever the saying is, it's done that!

Things will balance out for sure and it might even reach a nice balanced place, but skin deep, it all just looks broken; only time will tell though.

Edit:

As for appreciating that they gave us the games, I would happily let them do a recall and work an extra 6 months on the game to give me some better designs and better thought out stat distributions .

Edited September 21, 2010 by Tbird

[Sabeta]

That's the thing, I've been looking beyond the skin. I will admit a good chunk of the new Pokemon are just plain fail. (A Garbage Bag...Really...) But the vast majority are freakin' sweet. This metagame will be chaos at first.

Oh, and Wraith; the new item "Aiming Mark" will dispel all of your troubles with my Eel.

[wraith89]

People...There will always be some "Game Breaking" pokemon. That's the way it is. If there was no game breaking pokemon, then people would say things like "Duh, this generation has the weakest and St00pidist pokemon EVER!" Appreciate the game for what it is. Accept change. Change happens. If they change something, it's their right to. They make the game. Sure we have pokemon hacks, but they try to impress you with different things. A lot of people are just focusing on the pokemon. Maybe try focusing on some other changes. Wow, the battle sprites aren't static. Gee that makes it more liking. Thats new. There will be always some pokemon you won't like. Just appreciate that they give you these games.

Broken? Sure I wouldn't mind a legendary uber being more than capable of destroying commonplace Pokemon but when you give Pokemon lazy designs with stats that make old Pokemon that were designed much better cry... I don't know, how would you feel? Or moves that are just completely insane (like the one Tbird mentions... 180 BP with only drawback hurting your allies... in singles that'd break.)

Like.. all right. To illustrate my point... and I know I'm exaggerating, but to prove one's point sometimes we have to use extremes. If I were part of TrollGamefreak and I came out with this as this generation's new... Butterfree...

Typing: Electric (reference to how so many stuff in this gen looks like they're from water but they don't possess that typing... like that eel or flatfish)

Ability: Levitate (no weaknesses... > : ) )

HP: 150

Attack: 111

Defense: 130

SpA: 155 <-- 1 point above Mewtwo's SpA

SpDef: 110

Speed: 181 <--- 1 point above Deoxys-S, the fastest Pokemon in the game

I don't know... how would you feel? Not only did something with a ridiculous design just totally usurp some former Pokemon but it also has one of the most ridiculous designs ever. I'd be like "I'm supposed to use that?" It's just that ridiculous numbers are thrown everywhere on poorly designed Pokemon... and I cannot get over that.

I will admit I do take a liking to some of the new Pokemon (like Gothivoir... but nothing replaces my old Gardevoir, or Mamanbou) but for the most part, it looks just... weird! I mean, we can get used to it I guess eventually, but even when Gen IV came, I wasn't too enamored with the new guys that came in, but to me, at least they appeared like Pokemon. That's all. The stuff here look like the love children of Pokemon + Digimon + Yu-gi-oh cards even... ha ha no idea but everything does turn out similar in the end. But who knows? Only time will tell... but I feel like stall will die out. Period.

[Tbird]

Typing: Electric (reference to how so many stuff in this gen looks like they're from water but they don't possess that typing... like that eel or flatfish)

Ability: Levitate (no weaknesses... > : ) )

HP: 150

Attack: 111

Defense: 130

SpA: 155 <-- 1 point above Mewtwo's SpA

SpDef: 110

Speed: 181 <--- 1 point above Deoxys-S, the fastest Pokemon in the game

Someone put this on our server NAO.

[Sabeta]

1) Eel's are commonly Electricly charged throughout their body, which they use to paralyze prey. It makes sense, quite crying. The only possible change needed here, is to possibly include Water in it's typing.

2) The game isn't that Broken, that's the thing. You're little example fabricated, and thus holds absolutely no relevance. Pokemon aren't Broken, they just look that way to you because they are better than previously.

3) You clearly haven't been paying attention to the new items or attacks, looking only at their stats, and being completely close-minded to their appearance. The reason they look "different" is because they are in a "far-off region" (America). So yes they don't look like Traditional Pokemon, but do they need to? No, change is a good thing, over half of the gamers were crying that each gen is just a repeat of the last, even you have been crying about the boringness of the metagame because it's so centralized, well from what I see it's now actually balanced. (except stall, it'll be nearly impossible to pull it off.) Take a look at all the Items, and all the Moves. You'll see that this metagame is going to be balanced. At first you'll thing "Why the hell is everyone so broken, poor gen I-IV" but then you'll realize the previous generations are being brought up to this level. There are even tons of new items as well, like the Aiming Mark. In case you were wondering, Aiming mark allows you to bypass Immunities, like Gravity did for Ground immunity, the Aiming mark will do the same.

[wraith89]

#1: Yes... that's right. I was thinking the same thing really.

#2: Oh yes it is. Every time something new is added expect them to outclass the old. By the way, that phenomenon is not only limited to Pokemon... so whatever. It seems very dangerous right now really, as they have mixed bigger numbers on Pokemon that don't look like they possess the stats or anything. Because they are better than previous ones... that's the thing. They expect us to use this new... stuff that they bought out. I don't know... I don't think I can. It seems the stats were lazily distributed and the designs were lazily implemented. You may not see it, but I kind of see it that way. Gen V at this point looks very offensive styled, makes no room for stall... which is the type of game some people play (like me... it was my preferred method of battling really). Lousy designs just do not help, no matter what their stats/abilities/etc are!

#3: Oh come on, do you truly think any metagame is truly balanced? There is no such thing even as of yet. Even if I say Starcraft is the most balanced thing I've ever played, I can still see a lot of issues in there too. Change is not always for the better. "In a far away region..." sure I can accept that. I don't just look at the stats, but stats definitely do play an important role in Pokemon. So does typing... so does abilities, and of course, held items. Some of the stuff don't look American at all though.

That being said, there will always be a top and a bottom in any metagame. No doubt about it.. that's what makes a metagame, much like social classes in real life and everything. Nobody was created equal... so we cannot really attain a balance. Maybe like an asymptote... always reaching but not being able to attain its goals. I just have a bleak vision of BW's metagame as everything is offensive or "one shot this and that", etc... it plagued the DP metagame somewhat, and got progressively worse in PlatHGSS as they added new move tutors to enable things like Salamence wreak greater havoc. You can say I'm afraid of the new possibilities... or unwillingness to change, but it's more "I'm treading on dangerous currents here". Will I adapt to it? Maybe... but there are a lot of issues I am unsure of.

Does adding stronger stuff like Aiming Mark necessarily balance the game out? Or rather break it? In any games, either buffing or nerfing something can bring detrimental results, leading to some stuff being completely unusable or just totally overcentralizing... controversy sparks on Ninetales and Politoed right now on their new abilities. Let me give you an example. A game my brother plays on his iTouch is this shooting game called Eliminate Pro... which introduced many weapons, and then the ultimate "Titan Pro" which was everyone's dream. But later on, they started adding more guns and eventually, this one called Menacer Pro came out. It had wall sticking properties, did a lot of damage, and was a rapid shooting gun. In fact, green balls were EVERYWHERE because of that. The gun required NO skills to use and people just beat others with ranks 300 + higher than them because of that. Needless to say, the Titan Pro was so outclassed... no one even uses that anymore. Although it is a decent gun, it looks downright obsolete because of the Menacer Pro. Later came the nerf... which didn't do anything to the gun... EXCEPT the firing rate was down. That ONE ASPECT totally rendered the gun unusable. Maplestory... Dual Bladers end up KSing others... not because the player is so good, but because the CLASS itself is good. They involve little to NO skills to use, as opposed to stuff like Crusaders. Starcraft II... most people play Terrans... although Starcraft does involve skills it seems it's a lot easier to use them right now than the other races... as Gin says, the Zergs have a LOT of problems competing right now. Now a question about the new Pokemon... will they end up requiring no skills just to own others? Or are you just so good because you know how to use it? Who knows?

Previous gen are bought up to that level? Nah I don't believe so. I won't deny the old Pokemon did get buffed... they have indeed. I did research on some Pokemon's moves and everything... it can only help so much, but face it. One thing they cannot change are base stats, which is why I put an important emphasis on that. Stuff that was stuck with its stats from its debut will ALWAYS remain that way (Gen 1--> Gen 2 special split was an exception, but forget about that). 109 speed? 108ers... 116, etc... are you kidding me? How are we to compete with that? Some Pokemon like the legendary birds received absolutely no new moves (okay, new TMs... but that can only help so much). Some stuff, however, they managed to break, like Blaziken with Speed Boost. Like I said, buff/nerf can be a dangerous thing. I like Dragonite's new ability... BUT it only works at 100% HP. Boo. Heracross's overconfidence ability... meh too bad. Stuff that switches in after it OHKOs something will be a counter anyhow. They are paying attention to some of the old stuff, which is good... but it's really not enough to make them all that great or catch up to the rest, MOSTLY because of the said base stats. Mewtwo's Psycho Break, however, is a welcome addition as Mewtwo needed a signature move. Some they just broke beyond repair (as Blaziken, Zapdos, etc...)... others, well... I don't know, but would giving Gale to Pidgeot really help it that much? Many of the stuff that they bring is also very Double/Triple battle centric, such as that 180 BP move, Douse, etc... Pidgeot will always remain inferior to the other birds. Dream World only gave it Pigeon Heart of all abilities, when something like even HUSTLE could benefit greatly, you know? And stuff that wanted evolution... now why could they not do that in this generation? Is it because they want people to be enamored with the new Pokemon and just forget about the old? Could be... 156 Pokemon... more than the original 151... not to mention a #000 taking the role of Missingno... you know, they might as well! Anyhow, I was looking forward to evolutions for stuff like Delibird or Farfetch'd or even Jynx... but again, that has been denied. Heck, they troll Delibird with another version of its EXISTING ability! And funny how I'm the only one who noticed that immediately... and how Mamanbou isn't even an evo for Luvdisc. That's a shame... it really is (but I really do like Mamanbou... I really do).

One thing I know for certain is the restricted access of Stealth Rocks, which can be a good or a bad thing.

Much like I wouldn't know how the game turns out, you wouldn't know either. I don't blindly think everything will be well... one has to be critical of what appears to happen. Like me, you are also guilty of theorymoning here... "new items and buffs on old Pokemon will balance it out for sure!"... no not completely. If stall is not viable (it was dying in Gen IV anyhow but at least manageable)... meh, what can I do? Pokemon is leaning towards offensive direction... and it always has been. Cannot say it's really balanced if there is no other modes of playing really.

I WILL say this though... many of us got our wishes come true. "Give us something new!"... you've got it. "Stop spamming Zubats!"... you've got it (but half of that wish came true as it was replaced by some other idiotic bat). This list will be quite long so... I'm just gonna stop there. I guess they just HAD to add the new stuff (to keep the franchise going of course!)... but really they just don't fit with the rest of the other Pokemon.

Am I saying they shouldn't change stuff at all? No... Pokemon should be dynamic and changing, and I welcome many of the changes implemented in BW, new possibilities are always cool... but something about this does not feel right. Ever since Gen IV I suspected Pokemon would not be for kids anymore... it's really for nerds. All right, so Pokemon grew up... or maybe we grew up. I don't know, but I think I'm through with it. I guess GF is really smart there... more money for their franchise. Great. But losing traditional values of Pokemon really does make me question it. Like Digimon... after the second season, I got entirely lost and just stopped. Closed-minded to appearance eh? I'd hate to be the person that uses Pokemon I don't care for but only care because their stats or ability or movepool is better than stuff that I've grown attached to... it seems that's what elitists do. Only look at the numbers. Numbers are the only thing that they'd ever care for... dull... boring... and closed minded from other possibilities and busy with the matters of consequences. What can I say? I hope we're not retrogressing to a macro scale of Gen I (what a trainwreck of a metagame that was... if you can call that a metagame!)...

Edited September 21, 2010 by wraith89

[Sabeta]

#1: Yes... that's right. I was thinking the same thing really.

Glad we're on the same page here.

#2: Oh yes it is. Every time something new is added expect them to outclass the old. By the way, that phenomenon is not only limited to Pokemon... so whatever. It seems very dangerous right now really, as they have mixed bigger numbers on Pokemon that don't look like they possess the stats or anything. Because they are better than previous ones... that's the thing. They expect us to use this new... stuff that they bought out. I don't know... I don't think I can. It seems the stats were lazily distributed and the designs were lazily implemented. You may not see it, but I kind of see it that way. Gen V at this point looks very offensive styled, makes no room for stall... which is the type of game some people play (like me... it was my preferred method of battling really). Lousy designs just do not help, no matter what their stats/abilities/etc are!

Let me first take a look at the current Metagame. #3 Gengar, #4 Gyarados, #6 Starmie, #9 Dragonite, #13 Machamp. So with Four Generations, Generation I takes up 1/3rd of it. 4 Pokemon came from Gen IV, 2 from Gen II, and 4 from Gen III. What do these numbers tell me? It says that Generation I is the best. These Pokemon have withstood the test of time, and can compete in today's metagame, so I don't see where you're coming from with all this talk of Pokémon getting more broken each generation. I will give you that this Generation has a considerable spike in stats than previous generations. Here is what many are calling the most broken Pokemon from this Generation:

Aekeosu

Type: Rock/Flying

Ability: Faint Hearted

Base Stats:75 140 65 112 65 110 [Total:567] (Here's an interesting tidbit, his National Dex number is also 567)

Just by looking at it's stats premiliminarily, you'd think he's extremely broken. Something that fast, and with such absurd attack? Not to mention his great Special attack as well. Even Salamence can't boast figures like that, and he's been deemed Über! Let's take a closer look; however, first we'll gesture over to it's ability. It's effect is " If it's HP drops below 50%, Attack is reduced by half", and no, he doesn't have a Dream World ability to fix this. a single Bullet Punch from Scizor ruins him. After that, his best stat is his respectable 112 Special Attack, and a great Speed Number. His strongest special attacks are Focus Blast, Earth Power, and Dragon Pulse, two of which are Egg Moves. So if you go the special attacking route, you'll be easy to predict, and if not, then you only have access to one maybe two of these moves, and none of them are STAB for you to take advantage of. He doesn't even break the 600BST needed to be a pseudo legend like Salamence. He's an Early Game sweeper, meant for Hyper Offense, and that's it. Once you see all of what he is, instead of just glancing at it, you start to see it's not so bad after all. (I didn't cover everything here, because this argument isn't about him really.)

" as they have mixed bigger numbers on Pokemon that don't look like they possess the stats or anything"

My only response to this is, since when do magical make-believe critters have to obey the laws of physics and have big burly arms in order to be strong. You also claim that the Pokemon have Lousy Designs, you're argument has been repeatedly "They no longer look like Pokemon." Well guess what. They DO look like Pokemon, because they ARE Pokemon, and they were made by GAMEFREAK. You can say they don't look like it all you want, but the simple fact of the matter is...they are, and they do. You have no control over that, and if you have a problem, take it up with GameFreak. The metagame shifts each generation. This time around, Stall sucks, learn2play a new style, or keep trying with stall until you find a way to make it work. If you liked Stall, you might like Bulky Offense, if you are any good you should know what that is. If not, take a gander at my RMT for an example. That'll end this section of the rant.

#3: Oh come on, do you truly think any metagame is truly balanced? There is no such thing even as of yet. Even if I say Starcraft is the most balanced thing I've ever played, I can still see a lot of issues in there too. Change is not always for the better. "In a far away region..." sure I can accept that. I don't just look at the stats, but stats definitely do play an important role in Pokemon. So does typing... so does abilities, and of course, held items. Some of the stuff don't look American at all though.

With Mence and Latias gone, this metagame is as close to balanced as we can get. I did not say; however, that this future generation would be balanced, but that so far it seems that way. Keep in mind that when I say this, I am not saying that "Stall will be just as good as Hyper Offense, and vice-versa." but that our metagame will be more than the same 15 Pokemon spammed repeatedly. Small paragraph gets small reply.

Does adding stronger stuff like Aiming Mark necessarily balance the game out? Or rather break it? In any games, either buffing or nerfing something can bring detrimental results, leading to some stuff being completely unusable or just totally overcentralizing... controversy sparks on Ninetales and Politoed right now on their new abilities. Let me give you an example. A game my brother plays on his iTouch is this shooting game called Eliminate Pro... which introduced many weapons, and then the ultimate "Titan Pro" which was everyone's dream. But later on, they started adding more guns and eventually, this one called Menacer Pro came out. It had wall sticking properties, did a lot of damage, and was a rapid shooting gun. In fact, green balls were EVERYWHERE because of that. The gun required NO skills to use and people just beat others with ranks 300 + higher than them because of that. Needless to say, the Titan Pro was so outclassed... no one even uses that anymore. Although it is a decent gun, it looks downright obsolete because of the Menacer Pro. Later came the nerf... which didn't do anything to the gun... EXCEPT the firing rate was down. That ONE ASPECT totally rendered the gun unusable. Maplestory... Dual Bladers end up KSing others... not because the player is so good, but because the CLASS itself is good. They involve little to NO skills to use, as opposed to stuff like Crusaders. Starcraft II... most people play Terrans... although Starcraft does involve skills it seems it's a lot easier to use them right now than the other races... as Gin says, the Zergs have a LOT of problems competing right now. Now a question about the new Pokemon... will they end up requiring no skills just to own others? Or are you just so good because you know how to use it? Who knows?

Ducks fly South during the Winter; my parents fly south during the Winter; therefore, my parents are Ducks. This is the connection you are trying to make between Pokémon and these other games. It doesn't work, so stop using these ridiculous examples.

Previous gen are bought up to that level? Nah I don't believe so. I won't deny the old Pokemon did get buffed... they have indeed. I did research on some Pokemon's moves and everything... it can only help so much, but face it. One thing they cannot change are base stats, which is why I put an important emphasis on that. Stuff that was stuck with its stats from its debut will ALWAYS remain that way (Gen 1--> Gen 2 special split was an exception, but forget about that). 109 speed? 108ers... 116, etc... are you kidding me? How are we to compete with that? Some Pokemon like the legendary birds received absolutely no new moves (okay, new TMs... but that can only help so much). Some stuff, however, they managed to break, like Blaziken with Speed Boost. Like I said, buff/nerf can be a dangerous thing. I like Dragonite's new ability... BUT it only works at 100% HP. Boo. Heracross's overconfidence ability... meh too bad. Stuff that switches in after it OHKOs something will be a counter anyhow. They are paying attention to some of the old stuff, which is good... but it's really not enough to make them all that great. Mewtwo's Psycho Break, however, is a welcome addition as Mewtwo needed a signature move. Some they just broke beyond repair (as Blaziken, Zapdos, etc...)... others, well... I don't know, but would giving Gale to Pidgeot really help it that much? Many of the stuff that they bring is also very Double/Triple battle centric, such as that 180 BP move, Douse, etc...

~whistle~ Long paragraph. This'll take a while to break down. You say Base Stats can't be changed, but why should they? Let's compare two very similar Pokemon, one we all know and love. Machamp. The other, is almost his exact clone, Roopushin. Let's break them down and have a look-see.

90 130 80 65 85 55 [505]

105 140 95 55 65 45 [505]

Well wouldja look at that. The have the SAME BASE STATS. So from Generation I, to Generation V, there has been no sudden spike in the BST. The only difference is the distribution. Here, we have a bulkier Machamp, but without No-Guard. They are equals in every since of the word, and if you had bothered to look at pokemon as a whole, instead of saying "WTF 140 HAX THIS GAME SUCKS." You'd have realized that. (For the record, I find this guy one of the slightly more unimaginative Pokemon. He even evolves via Trade like Machamp.) Giving him new moves, and this will effectively "catch him up". Some Pokemon, struggled more than others, and for them, they were usually given new and better abilities. I mean, how epic is Gliscor now that he can heal 1/8th in Sandstorm instead of 1/16th. Some of these new Pokemon, are of course better than others. That's how things have always been. No matter what you do, Machamp will always pummel Blissey into oblivion, does that make him Broken? No, of course not. Some Pokemon, yes will be Uber. That shadow dragon we got might just make it, who knows, but the vast majority is on Par with previous generations. Maybe they'll have some sort of "edge" thanks to better stat distribution, but our old favorites are still viable, and will still be useful. Of course some will get gipped out of the curve, sometimes things happen. I mean, before SR, Charizard was barely playable, and now. Gone completely. These things happen, and while you might not like all of them, it's the way they are. Nothing is overly broken here, if it is, Tiering will set it right.

To the rest of your argument. The pokemon you listed were mostly NU in the first place. Of course it's not going to help much for them, they've been NU, and will stay NU. Some others, like Politoad went OU overnight. Regardless, they can't help them all. Competitively speaking, most of our favorites will still be viable, if not moreso than usual. (I believe you had a SD Breloom set, correct? Well it can get technician now. Imagine all the fun you can have with Mach Punch now.) I wont pretend to know exactly how this metagame will play out, but I do know for sure that it wont break. Besides, with the convenience of Wifi, I'm almost certain that Gen-IV will still be popular to play. (Similar to how ADV is popular in some circles.) So it's not like your being forced into this generation. If you don't want it, don't buy it. You don't want to compete, fine, don't.

One thing I know for certain is the restricted access of Stealth Rocks, which can be a good or a bad thing.

I know you probably want it too, but it wont. There are over 100 Pokemon who still get SR, and the only thing stopping them is a quick migration. The only Draw Back is you wont get new egg-moves/abilities. That's it.

Much like I wouldn't know how the game turns out, you wouldn't know either. I don't blindly think everything will be well... one has to be critical of what appears to happen. Like me, you are also guilty of theorymoning here... "new items and buffs on old Pokemon will balance it out for sure!"... no not completely. If stall is not viable (it was dying in Gen IV anyhow but at least manageable)... meh, what can I do? Pokemon is leaning towards offensive direction... and it always has been. Cannot say it's really balanced if there is no other modes of playing really.

It will be more balanced this generation, from what I've seen. Of course I can't predict the future, but it just feels like there's going to be way more diversity.

I WILL say this though... many of us got our wishes come true. "Give us something new!"... you've got it. "Stop spamming Zubats!"... you've got it (but half of that wish came true as it was replaced by some other idiotic bat). This list will be quite long so... I'm just gonna stop there. I guess they just HAD to add the new stuff (to keep the franchise going of course!)... but really they just don't fit with the rest of the other Pokemon.

Weather or not Kuromoi is stupid or not, is you're own opinion, and as such isn't fact. It is a new bat pokemon, and I actually preffer it's design over Zubat. (But perhaps that's because I'm tired of seeing it, lol.) Yep, we got something new, finally. Not all of it I agree with. (See: Trash Bag) but the majority I like. That ninja-bug looks cool (I'll give you that 135 speed is pretty bad, but so is ninjask, and he gets speed boost to boot.) They don't fit in? If you've payed close enough attention, each generation has it's own design flare to it that seperates it form each geneartion. Each region "feels" different from the rest, this one might feel slightly more different in that it is "farther away."

[/endrant]

[wraith89]

I lag even worse in school... I'll go ahead and delete your double post.

Let me first take a look at the current Metagame. #3 Gengar, #4 Gyarados, #6 Starmie, #9 Dragonite, #13 Machamp. So with Four Generations, Generation I takes up 1/3rd of it. 4 Pokemon came from Gen IV, 2 from Gen II, and 4 from Gen III. What do these numbers tell me? It says that Generation I is the best. These Pokemon have withstood the test of time, and can compete in today's metagame, so I don't see where you're coming from with all this talk of Pokémon getting more broken each generation. I will give you that this Generation has a considerable spike in stats than previous generations. Here is what many are calling the most broken Pokemon from this Generation:

Aekeosu

Type: Rock/Flying

Ability: Faint Hearted

Base Stats:75 140 65 112 65 110 [Total:567] (Here's an interesting tidbit, his National Dex number is also 567)

Just by looking at it's stats premiliminarily, you'd think he's extremely broken. Something that fast, and with such absurd attack? Not to mention his great Special attack as well. Even Salamence can't boast figures like that, and he's been deemed Über! Let's take a closer look; however, first we'll gesture over to it's ability. It's effect is " If it's HP drops below 50%, Attack is reduced by half", and no, he doesn't have a Dream World ability to fix this. a single Bullet Punch from Scizor ruins him. After that, his best stat is his respectable 112 Special Attack, and a great Speed Number. His strongest special attacks are Focus Blast, Earth Power, and Dragon Pulse, two of which are Egg Moves. So if you go the special attacking route, you'll be easy to predict, and if not, then you only have access to one maybe two of these moves, and none of them are STAB for you to take advantage of. He doesn't even break the 600BST needed to be a pseudo legend like Salamence. He's an Early Game sweeper, meant for Hyper Offense, and that's it. Once you see all of what he is, instead of just glancing at it, you start to see it's not so bad after all. (I didn't cover everything here, because this argument isn't about him really.)

" as they have mixed bigger numbers on Pokemon that don't look like they possess the stats or anything"

My only response to this is, since when do magical make-believe critters have to obey the laws of physics and have big burly arms in order to be strong. You also claim that the Pokemon have Lousy Designs, you're argument has been repeatedly "They no longer look like Pokemon." Well guess what. They DO look like Pokemon, because they ARE Pokemon, and they were made by GAMEFREAK. You can say they don't look like it all you want, but the simple fact of the matter is...they are, and they do. You have no control over that, and if you have a problem, take it up with GameFreak. The metagame shifts each generation. This time around, Stall sucks, learn2play a new style, or keep trying with stall until you find a way to make it work. If you liked Stall, you might like Bulky Offense, if you are any good you should know what that is. If not, take a gander at my RMT for an example. That'll end this section of the rant.

I'm well aware that certain old Pokemon have been standing up for a very long time and are still solid cores to the standard metagame. Also, Generation I had more Pokemon than the other generations additions, so ratio wise... think of it that way.

Dragonite was BL actually due to its lack of STAB and interesting moves... and had nothing to really offer over bulky waters or whatever, except for a ginormous movepool. In fact, it wasn't even noticed until Gen IV, and even then it was not really going to do anything that Salamence and Garchomp could already do. Okay, DD + Outrage. But that got denied once Outrage tutor came in and made Salamence a devastating weapon of mass destruction. And tiers do not say everything. Stuff like Alakazam that has dropped down are very viable and yet they're considered UU for some reason. Why would that be?

Nah the Archaeopteryx is another Slaking with less of a penalty (a penalty regardless)... but still quite powerful. However its stats are more or less scarier than Salamence if you look at it that way. The defenses lack as usual but still scary unless you possess some priority move or something that can take the hit and dish back heavy damage (something like Metagross or Azumarill comes into mind).

I'm not even saying one strategy should be as good as the other... that would be boring. However, it should at least make room for versatility, you know. Bulky offense? I use that sometimes, but honestly, I find stall more fun (or annoying, depending on which side you're in)... making it work if it doesn't work, let's say, is like trying to make a Caterpie sweep an entire team. You know what I'm saying?

"They DO look like Pokemon, because they ARE Pokemon, and they were made by GAMEFREAK."

I don't know, of course they are Pokemon but I can still say they look a lot like Fakemon. Quality has gone down the drain in fact. Care to tell me why some people think this way? Maybe they see it in a different angle than you do. Just maybe you know... people think a bit differently than what is within the norms? I could say the same about Gamefreak... they may have been thinking differently when they bought this generation out. The game is good, I'm certain... but some people like me and some others think the Pokemon in this game somewhat ruined the experience. Why would you think that is? It's really our opinion though, you do not need to agree with it, but understand where we are coming from at least. Likewise, I see where you are standing, and it's fine.

With Mence and Latias gone, this metagame is as close to balanced as we can get. I did not say; however, that this future generation would be balanced, but that so far it seems that way. Keep in mind that when I say this, I am not saying that "Stall will be just as good as Hyper Offense, and vice-versa." but that our metagame will be more than the same 15 Pokemon spammed repeatedly. Small paragraph gets small reply.

Who invited Latias to OU in the first place? Variety is always a good thing, I won't argue with that. But same thing will happen: add more Pokemon, the same Pokemon will still be spammed, but in a different number but possibly in the same ratio as in the past. It's always going to happen so no argument there.

Ducks fly South during the Winter; my parents fly south during the Winter; therefore, my parents are Ducks. This is the connection you are trying to make between Pokémon and these other games. It doesn't work, so stop using these ridiculous examples.

You are missing the point here. Every game with a competitive metagame has this aspect, whether you like it or not. You can say in the early stages Pokemon like Garchomp required no skills to use and pretty much "overspecialized" this metagame, requiring at least two counters to the SD Yachechomp to take down. You buff something, you can end up breaking it (SpeedBoostiken). You nerf something, you can end up making it lose a lot of potential (say goodbye to elemental punching Alakazam). Simple as that.

~whistle~ Long paragraph. This'll take a while to break down. You say Base Stats can't be changed, but why should they? Let's compare two very similar Pokemon, one we all know and love. Machamp. The other, is almost his exact clone, Roopushin. Let's break them down and have a look-see.

90 130 80 65 85 55 [505]

105 140 95 55 65 45 [505]

Well wouldja look at that. The have the SAME BASE STATS. So from Generation I, to Generation V, there has been no sudden spike in the BST. The only difference is the distribution. Here, we have a bulkier Machamp, but without No-Guard. They are equals in every since of the word, and if you had bothered to look at pokemon as a whole, instead of saying "WTF 140 HAX THIS GAME SUCKS." You'd have realized that. (For the record, I find this guy one of the slightly more unimaginative Pokemon. He even evolves via Trade like Machamp.) Giving him new moves, and this will effectively "catch him up". Some Pokemon, struggled more than others, and for them, they were usually given new and better abilities. I mean, how epic is Gliscor now that he can heal 1/8th in Sandstorm instead of 1/16th. Some of these new Pokemon, are of course better than others. That's how things have always been. No matter what you do, Machamp will always pummel Blissey into oblivion, does that make him Broken? No, of course not. Some Pokemon, yes will be Uber. That shadow dragon we got might just make it, who knows, but the vast majority is on Par with previous generations. Maybe they'll have some sort of "edge" thanks to better stat distribution, but our old favorites are still viable, and will still be useful. Of course some will get gipped out of the curve, sometimes things happen. I mean, before SR, Charizard was barely playable, and now. Gone completely. These things happen, and while you might not like all of them, it's the way they are. Nothing is overly broken here, if it is, Tiering will set it right.

Base stats cannot change, but sometimes, you can play around with them and make a Pokemon more viable. For example, Azumarill was what one would consider a troll fairy Pokemon in GSC. 100/50/80/50/80/50... eww right? Gen III somehow rectifies that by giving it Huge Power, making the bunny have an equivalent of a base 150 attack! Gen IV did it an even better deal by giving it physical STAB and more moves to abuse. I mean, I wish they would at least try a similar approach to other Pokemon. Some of them even have the potential to evolve. The reason why I pick on Pidgeot a lot is because it has evolved to its final form (3 times and that's that), its two ability slots have been taken, its stats are as if it were a second stage Pokemon, and its movepool is rather shallow too. The only thing I can say will help it is a special item of some sort to give it SOME edge over the other birds, you know? There was that Dream World thing too to give Pokemon some amazing abilities, but of course they messed up on Pidgeot for that too. No other Pokemon aside from Hitmonchan and that sorry excuse of a legendary Pokemon Articuno (at least from what I can think of) got screwed up that badly.

They could also have gone the simpler way... evolve them! Like you know... stuff like Chimecho or Delibird become fighting monsters? Sandslash become a faster ground? Who knows? Evolution would have sufficed for many of them. And because of the "it's a different region you cannot see old Pokemon dur hur" argument, I can also say THEY DO NOT EVEN HAVE TO BE IN GAME! Think about this... remember the 17 Pokemon near the back of the Pokedex in Sinnoh? Until Platinum, they were not even part of the game's story at all! Gamefreak was thinking about the competitive players who wanted to, you know, evolve some of their old favorites so they can actually be competition worthy! It would be really nice if they have done that here too... but apparently they could not do that either. What a shame.

Charizard wasn't barely playable before SR. In fact, it was quite a devastating force especially in GSC... but watered down slightly in Advance as bulky waters became more prevalent and its only advantage was Belly Drum, which can be a liability as well.

Tiering will set it right... that's what it was like when we had stuff like Garchomp come in and mess around with people. What about afterwards? Turns out he was overly broken (according to the people... I'm not talking about my personal experience here though).

To the rest of your argument. The pokemon you listed were mostly NU in the first place. Of course it's not going to help much for them, they've been NU, and will stay NU. Some others, like Politoad went OU overnight. Regardless, they can't help them all. Competitively speaking, most of our favorites will still be viable, if not moreso than usual. (I believe you had a SD Breloom set, correct? Well it can get technician now. Imagine all the fun you can have with Mach Punch now.) I wont pretend to know exactly how this metagame will play out, but I do know for sure that it wont break. Besides, with the convenience of Wifi, I'm almost certain that Gen-IV will still be popular to play. (Similar to how ADV is popular in some circles.) So it's not like your being forced into this generation. If you don't want it, don't buy it. You don't want to compete, fine, don't.

Dusclops had less of a BST than Pidgeot and ended up OU... where did Pidgeot end up? Distribution matters a lot as well apparently.

Meh, I proposed a lot of changes that could have really helped some stuff that have been outclassed by many others, like Hitmonchan, Pidgeot or Carnivine and stuff like that even. There's no helping for stuff like Beedrill or Butterfree who were meant for early game pwnage really for in-game purposes, but the other Pokemon I've mentioned could be salvaged if something was done for them. Like I said, I agree with the high and low class Pokemon or whatever... I'm no communist.

Breloom will hurt even more with Bullet Seed actually. Think about BP 55 * 2-5 times. A minimum of 110 base power... wouldn't that be interesting?

Don't worry about me not playing anyhow, but as someone who played Pokemon for quite a while I have the right to say what I feel about the new generation. I'd like to play with the new Pokemon, but... what am I going to do with these guys? You either give or take, agreed... but let's say I don't like some of these new Pokemon.

It will be more balanced this generation, from what I've seen. Of course I can't predict the future, but it just feels like there's going to be way more diversity.

I'm only hoping you're right, but right now it looks like an utter trainwreck, maybe regressing into the likes of the offensive Generation I metagame, only in a larger scale. Who knows?

Weather or not Kuromoi is stupid or not, is you're own opinion, and as such isn't fact. It is a new bat pokemon, and I actually preffer it's design over Zubat. (But perhaps that's because I'm tired of seeing it, lol.) Yep, we got something new, finally. Not all of it I agree with. (See: Trash Bag) but the majority I like. That ninja-bug looks cool (I'll give you that 135 speed is pretty bad, but so is ninjask, and he gets speed boost to boot.) They don't fit in? If you've payed close enough attention, each generation has it's own design flare to it that seperates it form each geneartion. Each region "feels" different from the rest, this one might feel slightly more different in that it is "farther away."

Yes, I do like some of them too, but for the most part, I think the quality has been butchered. That's just me. You don't have to agree, but see where I am coming from if you can. For example, I like the feminine plant that resembles Roserade in terms of stats (and pure Grass). It still appears Pokemon-ish to me. I don't know about some of the others though. The only generation I saw that had a unique design flare was Generation III, where Hoenn Pokemon were more or less more exotic than the others. Gen II, I can't say much since it's merely a sequel for Gen I and it fit right in. Gen IV though... it was still Pokemon. Still the same type of Pokemon that I can get used to, despite how it had more emphasis on the competitive edge. I cannot help but get disappointed at Gen V's Pokes. That's how I am.

[Tbird]

Stepping outside of the above ...

I have updated the OP with all the need-to-know information that I can think of, if anyone feels I should link to moar sites feel free to tell me and I'll add 'em pronto

[Sabeta]

Considering that most of the argument has derailed into opinionated territory; I'm gonna go ahead and wrap things up. I do in fact understand where you are coming from. For the record, I liked these Pokemon since before I saw their stats, so don't count me in as the crowd that only cares about numbers. I always find it more fun to when with an unorthodox strategy than spamming awesome OU Pokemon. Anyways, I can understand your opinion, and I respect that. Anything further than that though' we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Oh, and my argument sounded really heated. that's just how I type when I'm trying to make good points, I hope you didn't take offense to it or anything. ^^

[wraith89]

Don't worry about it. But since Pokemon is growing and I might just be growing out of it, that might be it. I'll let it slide for now though... every generation has to be different regardless.

[Sabeta]

It's all good. That was an epic debate though.

[wraith89]

Anyone else have thoughts about this game's new ultimate revenge killer?

"You may have beaten me, Scott Pilgrim, but can you beat YOURSELF?"

[hgsssprite]132[/hgsssprite]

Ditto!

Okay, before you think I am just trolling, no, this ONE minor change has completely made Ditto officially into the game's best (or worst) revenge killer. Yes, that's right. It is no longer confined to be your breeding mule! Why would that be? Dream World gave Ditto the ability ECCENTRIC, which allows it transform into its opponents' Pokemon the moment it sets its feet into the battlefield. Perhaps this is how Ditto was MEANT to be used?

Ditto @ Choice Scarf

Ability: Eccentric

(Jolly/Timid Nature)

252 HP (really all it needs as it transforms copying the opponent's stats)

- Transform (troll move on Eccentric Ditto)

Choice Scarf? So how is this going to work? Well, if all is right (a BIG IF mind you), Ditto copies EVERYTHING about its opponents, INCLUDING ALL STAT BOOSTS. Now that your opponent has set Salamence up to + 6... you're gone? Well, say hello to Ditto, who comes in, snags the boost, AND is an extra speed level higher than its foe. Chances are, most Pokemon are able to beat a clone of themselves, especially with higher speed. Now you have a Ditto with + 6 attack, + 7 speed, who can fire off an Outrage to sweep the OTHER GUY in his face! Ditto will definitely discourage anyone from being very greedy with boosting themselves up.

That's not to say it's without drawbacks. You're not revenging a + 6'er behind a Sub (but they're most likely not in one at that time... but they could, so...) nor are you taking out, well, stuff like a CroCune with Water Absorb (CM/Surf/Rest/Sleep Talk). But aside from that, MANY MANY Pokemon are capable of revenging their own clones, such as Infernape or Garchomp or the aforementioned Salamence or Gengar, etc...

Now will it overcentralize the metagame and be sent immediately to ubers like Wobbuffet? Or will it be OU usable? Either way, Ditto is not the same anymore... no longer the gimmicky Pokemon that it used to be because of this ONE change.

Smogon has some thoughts about it as well

Any thoughts, questions, comments?

[Sabeta]

I wasn't aware Ditto Copied Stat Boosts as well. I thought he only copied Base Stats.

Even still, this might (Big might) bump him to Ou, or more likely BL. His main fault is everything is set to 5 PP, so he wont be around for an overly long time.

[wraith89]

"The stats are copied exactly, without regard to EVs, IVs, and level"

Yep, even boosts... EVERYTHING (HP being the exception... Shedinja with more than 1 HP )

If you used a + 6 Outrage though... good luck surviving that (if you're not Metagross or something... and even then it would probably hurt a LOT and therefore unable to switch in directly). And of course, it is very dependent on who he copies and whatnot. We'll see how it turns out, but so far, it looks really scary.

The 5 PP isn't really a huge setback, if you use Outrage, that won't matter. And if you're not using Outrage or another locking move, you can always switch out and come back to ruin another set upper's day and regain the 5 PP anyhow. Aside from that, they are assuming you Scarf it so you can outpace the guy you want to revenge (or better yet sweep). Basically you are turning your opponent's smug face against him after he gets his + 6 on Garchomp.

Don't bother testing stuff out at Shoddy just yet though... Ditto is BUGGED there.

And if all is true, we have the best revenge killer in game... hmm... (I have a BAD feeling we got trolled by Gamefreak again... but let's hope not)

Ditto being even considered in OU or BL is a HUGE history maker right there, don't you agree?

Oh yeah, and like Wobbuffet, Ditto vs Ditto match will be...... I guess EVs are better spent maxing HP, and the rest into Attack/Def in case of a struggle war? Highly situational but I don't know where else it would go.

[Sabeta]

Perhaps, just to avoid such matches, it will go straight on up to Uber. Keep in mind if they were both Eccentric, they would need to come in simultaneously. In all honesty though, I think Politoad's rise from edge of obscurity to potential Uber overnight is bigger history.

[Tbird]

"CONFIRMED Breeding a Dream World female parent with any male parent (but not vice versa) has a chance of giving the offspring its respective Dream World Ability. It is unknown whether Ditto counts as the female for this purpose, and we won't know until DW Ditto is released."

Woo hoo .

But yeah... ditto is .. scary. Who'd a thunk it.

I believe there was an argument about 'a level 1 Groudon would still be Uber due to inf' weather' or something like that?

I really hope Ninetales and Politoed don't get the boot. They won't be able to cope in Ubers. However, a pokemon isn't classed uber by its strength in ubers, so who knows; I may just get sick of the sight of them .

I'm feeling a lot more optimistic about it all I must say. I've been looking at a lot of the new toys given; egg moves and such... and well I gotta say it's looking good . For instance, wraith pointed out to me how Arcanine now gets Close combat ... Aint that something! Combine that with this Justice heart ability and you have yourself a lovely little Ttar counter - hell an-anything-that-uses-a-dark-attack counter. It also gets wild jolt to eliminate those pesky waters As well as maintaining extreme speed and flare blitz.

As to be expected it can get nitro charge too, I think some sort of set with that could be put together quite nicely. With an adamant nature and + 1 speed that's 350 atk/ 433 Speed, slap on morning sun Close combat and a filler and you're good to go. Hell something like Morning/Nitro Charge/Fire Blast/Close Combat could work. Just theorymonning, I know , but still, things are looking up .

What else have we got...

Oh yeah politoed gets endeavor too . So whilst setting up rain, it could run Endure/Endeavor/Body Slam/Surf @ salac berry, to maybe some use. Gimmicky? Maybe... But I wouldn't mind seeing how it works. It would only hit 393 speed, however, so aero leads don't have to worry just yet (but that's why body slam is on the set, Body slam on the taunt, if para hits then finish it with surf ) And in that situation, it would retain the salac berry and be able to endeavor some later on .

Oh...

And the age of stealth rock has fallen folks. As with it, suicide leads will probably fall too. Two things have caused this, No SR TM, and the mischievous heart ability. Non attacking moves get priority here; Leparsudu gets this ability as well as taunt, not to mention Erufuun can use this ability + sleep powder.

Leparasudu: Fake Out/Taunt/Thunderwave(Yawn)/_Filler_ (Protect/Sub/Charm/Fake Tears/Rain Dance/ Sunny Day[<- for if Toed + Tales get the boot]) Sounds like it could be a great lead .

I mean people will still want to use SR leads and the like, but coming up against something like that will severely hinder their use.

There's a lot of cool new toys floating around for sure at this point. The viability might be questionable; but I sure as hell want to try it out .

[Sabeta]

This is Gamefreak's way of "Nerfing" Stealth Rocks. I can Promise you that because of Gen-IV, it will still be very prevalent in teams. The only difference, is that it wont be on leads anymore, and will instead by reserved for Bulky Pokemon who can set it up on the opponents switch out. Spikes might completely vanish, with the state stall will be in.

Politoad and Nintetales wont be Uber. They'll be OU. Now that we have all 4 weathers viable in OU permamently, we don't have to worry so much about them being Uber. The main reason that Drought/Drizzle would be uber is because of super amazing over-centralization. Everyone would have to run a Rain Dance team or be swept. Here; however, it's a matter of keeping your Weather inducer alive. Gen-V metagame will likely be extremely weather friendly, and Trick Room will shoot up in usage too. (It will be difficult for weather teams to play when their speed boosts are now against them.) Bulky/Hyper Offense will be the main play styles, either with or without weather, and Stall will be nearly impossible, but still do-able if the person is good enough. (A friend of mine is already working out plans. He loves Stall more than any other play style.)

[wraith89]

I hope Swampert gets Stealth Rocks as a hereditary move... because its Dream World ability Damp really helps it against suicide leads such as Metagross.

Meh, frankly they could have just reduced the damage output of Stealth Rocks, for 4x to become 25%, 2x to become 18.75%, 1x to become 12.5% (and the rest to be the same) or something. I guess the smaller distribution of Stealth Rocks due to the lack of TM CAN help, but as Sabeta points out, migrating from Gen IV will easily solve (or worsen, depending on your point of view) the problem. The Leopard looks like a great anti lead so far... who needs Aerodactyl? Okay fine, Stealth Rocks.

This metagame is very heavily weather influenced. We have Sand Throw as a sandy alternative to Swift Swim, Ninetales and Politoed with auto weather inducing moves (coincidentally these two are some of my favorite Pokemon), and other weather abusers coming in with abilities like Dry Skin on Jynx, Hydration on Vaporeon, etc. We do not know how tiering will turn out yet... so OU/Uber or not, it's none of our business now.

[Sabeta]

The main downside to any form of migration, is no Dream World abilities, so really. If a pokemon has a good enough DW ability it shouldn't carry rocks, but those who have extremely lame ones, well they'll be having fun their way.

Ftr, TMs can be passed via breeding. The Male must know the TM, and the baby must be capable of learning it. I believe both need to be the same species as well.