Questions about making Pokemon look as legitimate as possible.

[Narqui]

As I have a question about each attribute Pokemon can have / if they were changed. Basically, which (if any or all of these) changes I make with PKHeX will raise any suspicion about the Pokemon in question:

• Trainer
• Trainer ID
• Secret ID
• Memories
• Poke Ball (As long as it's allowed in the game)
• Nature
• Ability
• Met Location / Date
• Encryption Constant
• Relearn Moves
• Hell, most of the others.

Now, I understand that if you were to change any of these to where they were flat out illegal, that not only raises a red flag but would be an unusable Pokemon online, as well as may get you banned.

My question is: Even if everything is done *absolutely correctly* and is considered "Legal", is there ANY way for GameFreak or any fellow player to determine that these Pokemon may have (or definitely have) been hacked?

And BTW I'm not entering any tournaments so if GameFreak does have some way to tell that the general public does not, I'm not worried about this.

Any help (to any of the above bulleted concerns or more) would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

EDIT: PLEASE SEE TWO POSTS DOWN FOR MY CLARIFICATION OF WHAT I'M TRYING TASK. THANK YOU.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Narqui

[theSLAYER]

I have a feeling that this line of questioning was brought about due to a recent someone's video. Sigh.

18 minutes ago, Narqui said:

Even if everything is done *absolutely correctly* and is considered "Legal", is there ANY way for GameFreak or any fellow player to determine that these Pokemon may have (or definitely have) been hacked?

Depending on whether the other party does their homework, there is always a possibility of detecting whether a game or save had illegal modifications done to it.

For example, there are signs that the Game Sync feature used by Global Link actually stores your game save on their servers. If they may choose to implement it, they could compare the event flags and changes done to your save.
In this scenario, if you had a "before" save that has a particular Necrozma, and in the "after save" the Ball caught in attribute was changed, while other details like PID nature etc remained the same, it is obvious that that particular entry has been modified (thus hacked). [Because there is no legal way to change ball caught in in-game]

Now, to give an example from a "human not affiliated with GF" scenario. Let's say this player likes to upload a lot of their gameplay videos, and has a favorite team etc etc.
While not definitive, if a there's a particular party member with specific stats and nickname and attributes etc, and if one can notice the sudden attribute change,
it can raise a red flag. It depends on the accused player's personality and records of his gameplay/progress.

Though ultimately speaking, as long as the accused player does not make any mistakes, and there's no record of their progress,
there is no easy way to definitively tell.

[Narqui]

1 hour ago, theSLAYER said:

I have a feeling that this line of questioning was brought about due to a recent someone's video. Sigh.

Depending on whether the other party does their homework, there is always a possibility of detecting whether a game or save had illegal modifications done to it.

For example, there are signs that the Game Sync feature used by Global Link actually stores your game save on their servers. If they may choose to implement it, they could compare the event flags and changes done to your save.
In this scenario, if you had a "before" save that has a particular Necrozma, and in the "after save" the Ball caught in attribute was changed, while other details like PID nature etc remained the same, it is obvious that that particular entry has been modified (thus hacked). [Because there is no legal way to change ball caught in in-game]

Now, to give an example from a "human not affiliated with GF" scenario. Let's say this player likes to upload a lot of their gameplay videos, and has a favorite team etc etc.
While not definitive, if a there's a particular party member with specific stats and nickname and attributes etc, and if one can notice the sudden attribute change,
it can raise a red flag. It depends on the accused player's personality and records of his gameplay/progress.

Though ultimately speaking, as long as the accused player does not make any mistakes, and there's no record of their progress,
there is no easy way to definitively tell.

To clarify about the video thing, I don't know which video you're referring to. This question came solely from my own curiosity and the fact that I want to remain as safe as possible when it comes to creating Pokemon through PKHeX.

Also, I haven't even once gone online with ANY of my Pokemon that I have made through PKHeX, and I will not do so until I am certain I am able to make a Pokemon that is "100% undetectable (in terms of legality/legitimacy). Furthermore, I had already planned to make sure that once I do first introduce a hacked Pokemon, I've looked through it thoroughly (almost obsessively) to make sure that not only is it "legal", but raises absolutely no red flags, and once I DO introduce it, I will not make any further edits to that Pokemon, because I had thought the same thing you're saying (About introducing a Pokemon and then editing it and reintroducing it)

However, I am novice to intermediate (more on the novice side) on what raises red flags. So, my main question was this:

Of the things I've listed (And anything else you can change, but mainly the ones I've listed), would any of these changes end up raising a red flag because it does not correlate with the correct SID, TID, PID, Encryption Constant, etc? Or are all of those examples completely independent of other changes themselves?

Just to clarify, let's say I change a Mewtwo I caught from Naive to Timid. Let's say I change the Poke Ball, or any of the things that I listed. Do any of these value swaps affect anything besides the immediate swap itself? As in, by editing <whatever is on that list, may it be 1 or more things>, does anything else *need* to be changed in addition to that, in order for the Pokemon to remain legal and not raise any red flags?

[theSLAYER]

26 minutes ago, Narqui said:

and I will not do so until I am certain I am able to make a Pokemon that is "100% undetectable (in terms of legality/legitimacy)

Frankly if you need 100% guarantees, then you probably shouldn't be hacking.

There is always a chance that devs, programs and players make accidental mistakes. That is the only guarantee I can give you.

However, if you're willing to accept some risk...

27 minutes ago, Narqui said:

So, my main question was this:

Of the things I've listed (And anything else you can change, but mainly the ones I've listed), would any of these changes end up raising a red flag because it does not correlate with the correct SID, TID, PID, Encryption Constant, etc? Or are all of those examples completely independent of other changes themselves?

There's simply too much to talk about.
In Gen 3 & 4, PID, IVs, Nature, Gender, Ability, Encounter slots data are all tied together. For every Generation, not every Pokemon can be caught in every ball.
Transferring Pokemon across generations changes some data. Pal Parking Pokemon leaves behind trash bytes.

The best advice I can give you, is that you probably should NEVER create a Pokemon from scratch.
Modify one that you've caught/bred yourself, and make sure the encounter details and move combination matches possible data.

30 minutes ago, Narqui said:

Let's say I change the Poke Ball, or any of the things that I listed. Do any of these value swaps affect anything besides the immediate swap itself?

Depends on what you're swapping. Swapping the held item or Poke Ball caught in is typically harmless, as long as you swap it to a combination that is possible.

For Pokemon from Gen 3 and 4, changing any of the things that I mentioned in the previous segment would break the Pokemon.
(need to use RNGreporter to get the correct combination of details, and player has to double check its encountered in the correct encounter slot)

Pokemon from earlier generations also cannot have Egg Moves randomly mixed and matched, as certain combinations were impossible back then.
Even now, some people like putting Munchlax and Snorlax eggs moves on the same Snorlax, when that is not possible.
(It can only be hatched as a Munchlax or Snorlax, not as both lol)

PKHeX will let you know when you screwed up. So edit an existing creature that you caught/bred legitimately (at least this way, encounter details and trash bytes are likely already correct).

[Narqui]

29 minutes ago, theSLAYER said:

Frankly if you need 100% guarantees, then you probably shouldn't be hacking.

There is always a chance that devs, programs and players make accidental mistakes. That is the only guarantee I can give you.

However, if you're willing to accept some risk...

There's simply too much to talk about.
In Gen 3 & 4, PID, IVs, Nature, Gender, Ability, Encounter slots data are all tied together. For every Generation, not every Pokemon can be caught in every ball.
Transferring Pokemon across generations changes some data. Pal Parking Pokemon leaves behind trash bytes.

The best advice I can give you, is that you probably should NEVER create a Pokemon from scratch.
Modify one that you've caught/bred yourself, and make sure the encounter details and move combination matches possible data.

Depends on what you're swapping. Swapping the held item or Poke Ball caught in is typically harmless, as long as you swap it to a combination that is possible.

For Pokemon from Gen 3 and 4, changing any of the things that I mentioned in the previous segment would break the Pokemon.
(need to use RNGreporter to get the correct combination of details, and player has to double check its encountered in the correct encounter slot)

Pokemon from earlier generations also cannot have Egg Moves randomly mixed and matched, as certain combinations were impossible back then.
Even now, some people like putting Munchlax and Snorlax eggs moves on the same Snorlax, when that is not possible.
(It can only be hatched as a Munchlax or Snorlax, not as both lol)

PKHeX will let you know when you screwed up. So edit an existing creature that you caught/bred legitimately (at least this way, encounter details and trash bytes are likely already correct).

I apologize but I still think you're misunderstanding what I'm asking.

I do know that you can't have certain IV/Nature combinations, and more, in gen 3 and 4. (I do not create any Pokemon from 3/4 because of this reason). I know that I can't catch a Pokemon in Ultra Sun with a Heavy Ball for example. I know you can't hatch a Gen 6 Egg in a Gen 2 City. I know what you're saying with the Munchlax / Snorlax thing and I know you can't set the met date say, a date before the game itself was released, etc etc.

I also also only edit Pokemon that I catch on my own and NEVER from scratch.

Here is what I don't know and is my question (And trust me I know it's a rather abstract question and it's difficult for me to word it so people understand what I'm asking, but I will do my best):

Let's say I get all of that right: Met date, Poke Ball, Legitimate Moves, Created from scratch, Met Location, ALL of that. PKHeX says it's legal (which checks 90% of stuff but not stuff like met date and others, though let's also assume that's correct).

^That said, IF all of this IS correct, does the SID, TID, PID, Encryption Constant have ANYTHING to do with all of this? Or, can I leave it as is and not worry about it? And if they DO matter, is there a way to find the correct values to make the Pokemon COMPLETELY undetectable?

I hope I worded that right. =P I knew it was going to be hard to word before I even made the post. =P

Edited August 31, 2018 by Narqui

[theSLAYER]

28 minutes ago, Narqui said:

Let's say I get all of that right:

28 minutes ago, Narqui said:

That said, IF all of this IS correct, does the SID, TID, PID, Encryption Constant have ANYTHING to do with all of this?

and what I've been trying to tell you is, everything matters.

PID and EC might be connected (or separate) depending on generation you've imported the Pokemon from.
TID/SID pair might be connected, depending on generation you imported from.
[ Tho at the very least, if you're using game generated details, like you're editing an existing creature, TID/SID probably can be ignored at that point.
PID/EC might have connections, once again, depending on scenario.]

I can't give you a sweeping statement regarding whether they matter or not.
It's specific to the different scenarios/Pokemon.

What I can say is, if you can get EVERY SINGLE BIT of data correct, the Pokemon *MIGHT* go undetected.
 

However, I cannot say the same for your saves or your device.

28 minutes ago, Narqui said:

And if they DO matter, is there a way to find the correct values to make the Pokemon COMPLETELY undetectable? 

There is, but that's provided the user doesn't make any mistakes.
The user has to check that every single bit of data is correct, above what PKHeX tells you, if you're that worried about it.

To find the correct values (when they matter), for some scenarios you can use RNG prediction software, like RNGreporter (as I've said in an earlier post)

[Tho to be fair, Gamefreak's hack checks aren't as thorough as PKHeX presently.]
[but that can change. Ultimately, Pokemon are made up of data. As long as the data looks like the real deal, you're fine]

 

To make it less daunting, consider editing Pokemon from caught/obtained Gen 7 first, since there's less components to check and worried about there.
Then when you're more comfortable, slowly move down towards the older generations.

[Narqui]

1 hour ago, theSLAYER said:

and what I've been trying to tell you is, everything matters.

PID and EC might be connected (or separate) depending on generation you've imported the Pokemon from.
TID/SID pair might be connected, depending on generation you imported from.
[ Tho at the very least, if you're using game generated details, like you're editing an existing creature, TID/SID probably can be ignored at that point.
PID/EC might have connections, once again, depending on scenario.]

I can't give you a sweeping statement regarding whether they matter or not.
It's specific to the different scenarios/Pokemon.

What I can say is, if you can get EVERY SINGLE BIT of data correct, the Pokemon *MIGHT* go undetected.
 

However, I cannot say the same for your saves or your device.

There is, but that's provided the user doesn't make any mistakes.
The user has to check that every single bit of data is correct, above what PKHeX tells you, if you're that worried about it.

To find the correct values (when they matter), for some scenarios you can use RNG prediction software, like RNGreporter (as I've said in an earlier post)

[Tho to be fair, Gamefreak's hack checks aren't as thorough as PKHeX presently.]
[but that can change. Ultimately, Pokemon are made up of data. As long as the data looks like the real deal, you're fine]

 

To make it less daunting, consider editing Pokemon from caught/obtained Gen 7 first, since there's less components to check and worried about there.
Then when you're more comfortable, slowly move down towards the older generations.

Alright, gotcha, thanks man. Sorry for the miscommunication both ways and my newbieness.

Final question though:

Do you know of any threads / websites / write-ups etc that contain more in depth information of this kind of stuff (Player ID, Trainer ID, Secret ID, the correlations between all of that, etc) so that I may educate myself more as I move along?

I would like to eventually become an absolute expert at this; for both the good (helping my friends that do care about hacked Pokemon determine if their Pokemon are hacked or not), and the naughty *wink*.

Thanks. And thanks for all the help so far.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Narqui

[theSLAYER]

Just now, Narqui said:

Alright, gotcha, thanks man. Sorry for the miscommunication both ways and my newbieness. 

no worries, miscommunications happen all the time XD

1 minute ago, Narqui said:

Do you know of any threads that contain more in depth information of this kind of stuff (Player ID, Trainer ID, Secret ID, the correlations between all of that, etc) so that I may educate myself more as I move along? 

For starters, this page has a scattered information regarding Fixing PID problems:

Tho notably, encounter slot information is missing too.
(you know how a Pokemon grass/cave encounter is random right.
Basically, PID generation and which encounter you meet is tied.
So certain species might not be able get certain PID during wild encounters,
cause their encounter slot doesn't match up, if that makes sense to you)

I gonna need to find time to rework the page..
For starters, it'll probably be easier to give you advise based on different Pokemon scenarios.

[Narqui]

Gotcha, thanks.

[theSLAYER]

7 minutes ago, Narqui said:

Gotcha, thanks.

No worries, any specific questions just tag me in this thread.
Someone (me or another random user lol) will probably come along and help you

[Narqui]

Alrighty, will do. Thanks brother.

[Sabresite]

Most people get in trouble when they try to pawn off injected events for high profile trade or sale. Also asking about hacking like this can get you banned on specific trading subs. Don't forget that now your name is out there, whether you end up trading a hack or not.

[Narqui]

On 8/31/2018 at 2:48 PM, Sabresite said:

Most people get in trouble when they try to pawn off injected events for high profile trade or sale. Also asking about hacking like this can get you banned on specific trading subs. Don't forget that now your name is out there, whether you end up trading a hack or not.

Oh trust me, I'm not a dishonest person or I should say I try my best not to be. I would never try to pass off a hacked Pokemon as legitimate. My reasoning behind wanting to know everything about how to make a Pokemon appear 100% legitimate rests solely on the fact that I do not want to ever come even remotely close to risking be banned by introducing said Pokemon online.

Also, I made sure this website / forum was alright with PKHeX and the like before I made my account. Also, I used a different username here so that nobody on any other forum could connect me to this username; not because I wish to do anything malicious, but simply to protect my image.

On 8/31/2018 at 9:58 AM, theSLAYER said:

No worries, any specific questions just tag me in this thread.
Someone (me or another random user lol) will probably come along and help you

You mentioned earlier in the thread that changing a Poke Ball is harmless as long as that Pokemon can be caught with that Poke Ball in that specific game; which seems to make sense. Though, I have another question if you don't mind:

What are all the things (that you know of) that I can edit without ANY worry whatsoever (or at least if you could list / confirm the ones you are certain of; if you don't know them all)? Currently what I would *assume* these things are:

• A Pokemon's Level (As long as it is legal)
• Move Pool (As long as the Pokemon can learn that move in the generation / game it was met in)
• Friendship
• Poke Ball (As long as it is legal)
• Met Level (As long as it is legal)
• Met Date (As long as it makes sense)
• Effort Values (EVs)
• Gender (This one I'm very uncertain of)

Are any of these wrong? If so, which ones? And if I'm missing any, please let me know which one(s).

And I think I should clarify that I am not speaking of Gen 3 or 4, but rather Gen 6/7 exclusively.

Thanks in advance.

 

Edited September 1, 2018 by Narqui

[Sabresite]

I don't know of anyone who has been banned (by GF/Nintendo) for hacked pokemon. I don't even think the people spreading Zeraora to SM via bots were banned.
If a pokemon is considered egregiously hacked then you will simply not be able to play online. While you could theoretically be banned, again, I have never heard of confirmed cases of this.  Things that would be considered are illegal abilities, illegal pokeballs, illegal moves. That is pretty much it.

[theSLAYER]

Yup, they presently haven't banned modifications to Pokemon.
They've presently only banned units with modifications done to their 3DS.

If we're looking at a isolated system where we only care about modifications done to a Pokemon,
What you've mentioned should suffice.

[Narqui]

20 hours ago, theSLAYER said:

Yup, they presently haven't banned modifications to Pokemon.
They've presently only banned units with modifications done to their 3DS.

If we're looking at a isolated system where we only care about modifications done to a Pokemon,
What you've mentioned should suffice.

Yes, they aren't "presently" banning for modded Pokemon, but they may in the future and nobody truly knows when / if this will ever happen.

Nintendo is a business. It's just basic math in this sense: If they assume more people are quitting over people modding Pokemon than there are modders themselves, the sound financial decision is to ban the modders.

And yes, maybe the scales will never tip to the wrong side. Maybe we will be free to mod legal Pokemon for eternity, but if there's even a .01% chance that this may happen, I don't wish to take ANY risks whatsoever.

So if I may repeat my previous question, if someone would be so kind as to answer to the best of their ability:

Is there *ANY* way to even tell if any the following attributes were edited? If so, which ones? And if there are additional attributes I haven't listed that you know are completely undetectable changes, what are they? (Once again, Gen 6/7 exclusively).

• A Pokemon's Level (As long as it is legal)
• Move Pool (As long as the Pokemon can learn that move in the generation / game it was met in)
• Poke Ball (As long as it is legal)
• Met Level (As long as it is legal)
• Met Date (As long as it makes sense)
• Effort Values (EVs)
• Gender

I would be *incredibly* grateful to an answer to this question. Thank you.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Narqui

[theSLAYER]

19 minutes ago, Narqui said:

Is there *ANY* way to even tell if any the following attributes were edited? If so, which ones? And if there are additional attributes I haven't listed that you know are completely undetectable changes, what are they? (Once again, Gen 6/7 exclusively).

• A Pokemon's Level (As long as it is legal)
• Move Pool (As long as the Pokemon can learn that move in the generation / game it was met in)
• Poke Ball (As long as it is legal)
• Met Level (As long as it is legal)
• Met Date (As long as it makes sense)
• Effort Values (EVs)
• Gender

20 hours ago, theSLAYER said:

What you've mentioned should suffice.

^ was my response to you (specifically that portion),

i.e Those entries can be edited (to legitimate values) and be indistinguishable from a non-edited mon.
Probably can throw in PP Ups used while you're at it

[Narqui]

2 hours ago, theSLAYER said:

^ was my response to you (specifically that portion),

i.e Those entries can be edited (to legitimate values) and be indistinguishable from a non-edited mon.
Probably can throw in PP Ups used while you're at it

Wonderful. Thank you so much.

One last question for clarity:

I did not add things such as nature, IVs, etc onto that list because of what you stated previously. I know you were referring to Generation 3/4 but how about all other generations where such values or whatever were coded differently? (Gen 6/7 is my main concern here simply because I *believe* you can catch all existing Pokemon in those games; or at least the vast majority) Am I free to edit those as well in non-Gen 3/4 (or specifically Gen 6/7) and have it be indistinguishable from a legitimate Pokemon as well? Or does TID/SID etc also correlate with such values as they do in Gen 3/4?

Also, while I'm on the subject of TID/SID, in Gen 6/7 am I also able to edit Trainer Name, Trainer and Secret ID freely and have it still be indistinguishable from a legitimate Pokemon? In other words, is Trainer ID / Secret ID / Name completely independent of all other attributes? I suppose answer to the above question would also answer this one but I just want to clarify for 100% certainty.

 

[theSLAYER]

I'm going to thread very lightly saying this, as I don't want to provide misinformation. This is all to the best of my knowledge.

For Gen 6/7, it appears the PID and other values that were associated back in Gen 3/4 can be modified freely,
because I was told "the RNG system is sufficiently random".

However, with the correct seed, those values could be predicted (hence allowing for RNG to even work).
If you look at the screenshots in this page, you'll see that there's a program that accurately predicted PID, Ability, Gender, IVs.
(I've managed to obtain the shiny Hat Pikachu based on that program's work + the NTR overlay)

With that being said, it might take an impossible amount of computing power to reverse RNG search based on PID and stats.
Since I'm not a developer nor do I thoroughly know how the 3DS RNG system works, I can't guarantee it is not impossible in the future.
 

Now that I've laid down the context, here's to me answering you part-by-part.
 

6 hours ago, Narqui said:

I did not add things such as nature, IVs, etc onto that list because of what you stated previously. I know you were referring to Generation 3/4 but how about all other generations where such values or whatever were coded differently?

Yes, while coded differently, people have been able to RNG pokemon accurately in those games.
Refer back to my statement regarding "I can't guarantee it is not impossible in the future"

6 hours ago, Narqui said:

Am I free to edit those as well in non-Gen 3/4 (or specifically Gen 6/7) and have it be indistinguishable from a legitimate Pokemon as well?

Refer back to my statement regarding "I can't guarantee it is not impossible in the future"

6 hours ago, Narqui said:

Or does TID/SID etc also correlate with such values as they do in Gen 3/4?

Frankly, I got no clue regarding this. I need to read up on whether TID/SID RNG can be done in Gen 6 and 7.
Even in Gen 3 and 4, they weren't always generated as pairs at the start of the game, so can't say definitively.

6 hours ago, Narqui said:

Also, while I'm on the subject of TID/SID, in Gen 6/7 am I also able to edit Trainer Name, Trainer and Secret ID freely and have it still be indistinguishable from a legitimate Pokemon? In other words, is Trainer ID / Secret ID / Name completely independent of all other attributes?

Trainer Name shouldn't be a problem. As for TID/SID, read the block directly above this response (I can't definitely say portion)

 

Closing Statement
Ultimately, if we look back at an earlier reply I made to you:

On 8/31/2018 at 9:37 PM, theSLAYER said:

Frankly if you need 100% guarantees, then you probably shouldn't be hacking.

There is always a chance that devs, programs and players make accidental mistakes. That is the only guarantee I can give you.

However, if you're willing to accept some risk... 

I cannot give you the 100% guarantee you appear to be seeking. If you want to hack, you need to accept some risk on some level.
Granted, I think it is good that you want to know what can and cannot be done. It beats being a noob that just makes fake hacks and screwing themselves over.
It is probably safe to do as many edits as you want to do presently, but who knows if the system is going to change in the future?

The next best advice I can offer you, if you still have doubts, is to:
1. refrain from hacking entirely or
2. Perform limited/small edits, but keep a note somewhere of what edits you made. IF anyone (else) gets banned somewhere down the road, we'll likely report it.
We may (or may not) find out how these bans came to place, and you could check whether you've made that offense.
Tho of course, I also cannot guarantee what led people to be discovered.

[edit: For the record, I myself no longer directly modify my games that I use for online services, even if I don't battle others.
If I need to make edits, I'll modify the Pokemon on another game on another 3DS, then trade it over to my main game.
So the advice I'm giving you isn't something I'm just preaching without practicing ]

There was a time that certain people appeared to have gotten banned from Game Sync/Global Link (myself included).
As for me, it was something as easy as changing my 3DS save region when it's impossible.
For others, it appears to have been having one hacked Arcanine (invalid form ID) or perhaps impossible amount of balls in the Bag.
(I could find you that link if you want. Keyword was probably Banhammer Strikes again or something)