Sorting Out a First OU Team

[PinkKitty]

Well, after messing around with Platinum for awhile and trying out a lot of different gimmicky teams to get a feel for the game, I really want to try and make my first team that is supposed to be fairly strong.

I have been doing plenty of reading here on the forums before posting to get used to the various jargon like STABs, Sweeper, etc. Also made sure to look at the tier listings so I can keep within the boundaries and looked at several common builds.

I generally try to avoid making anything overly generic in the games I play, so with this team, while I do not mind the idea of one or two generic team members, I do want to try and at least have a good mix of different kinds of Pokemon. I would prefer to avoid extremely common Pokemon like Blissey and Salamance if it can be helped.

I have always preferred having a well-rounded team, so having a good lead, a couple sweepers, a wall or two, and a set-up type Pokemon would likely fit my play-style best. Strictly offensive or strictly defensive are just not as fun for me.

Anyways... semi wall-of-text aside, I have done some intial research on the Pokemon types I would like, so here are a few ideas I had...

Arcanine - Attack/Mix Sweeper

Milotic - Bulky Water, possibly wanting to keep Mirror Coat

Dragonite - Attack/Mix Sweeper

Porygon-Z - S Attack Sweeper

Gengar - S Attack Sweeper

Celebi - Set-up (Stealth Rock, U-Turn)

Umbreon - Wish Support and Wall

Milotic is the only one on that list that I especially want on my team. I went out of my way to get her as I quite like them. =n.n= I have a few other Pokemon trained from previous teams like Houndoom, Kingdra, Tyranitar, every Eeveelution, etc, but it would be nice to train all new types.

I will definitely still be doing more research as the list I have so far obviously does not work too well, but I am also quite eager for any suggestions from the people here. =n.n= I am trying to learn a lot at once, so feel free to make suggestions as help building my first good team would be much appreciated. My normal prefernce is to train pretty/cute Pokemon, but OU can be rather lacking on those due to most Pokemon losing all cuteness from evolving.

Thanks in advance to anyone who helps out. =n.n=

EDIT: I added a first version of the team a couple posts down. Please feel free to give feedback and suggestions as I am very open to them. =n.n=

EDIT2: Some changes based on feedback have been posted~ They are in Post #12 of this topic. =n.n= Thanks everyone~

Edited October 5, 2009 by PinkKitty

[Scwib]

Heyo! I'm strictly a UU battler, but I've breached the wall of OU once or twice.

A good way to find builds for your pokemon is to google search (example) Milotic smogon.

I use that site sometimes for looking at the more common builds for whichever Pokemon i want to use.

-I dont mean to advertise, I hope you understand this isn't for my benefit, but for PinkKitty's benefit.

[PinkKitty]

Figured I would post an update since I have been doing some experimentation with my proposed team. =n.n= I sorted out a team to start with from the listed Pokemon, but of course, I will likely be updating the team several times.

The team itself is meant to be a balanced team with half of the team focusing on offense, while the second half focuses on defense such as setups and stall tactics. My overall goal is to have a team that flows nicely and adapts well, but obviously with my lack of experience, that is not going to happen on the first try. The first version of the team is as follows...

Arcanine @ Choice Band

Ability: Intimidate

Nature: Jolly

EVs: 6 HP, 252 ATK, 252 Speed

Role: Lead, Physical Sweeper

- Flare Blitz

- Reversal

- Roar

- Toxic

Comment: Main problem at the moment is the move-set... This is the first time I ever tried out Choice items, so Roar and Toxic are not very good additions to the list. Toxic can work if the opponent switches out immediately after, but Roar is definitely not good here. The rest... I maxed out her speed as much as possible so she could strike hard and fast immediately, but Flare Blitz is currently her only good way to start a battle. Recoil damage can pile up, so she is not going to be sweeping a whole team. Definitely still has lots of power behind her, though, as that Flare Blitz took out my friend's Drifblim in one shot would a critical (but oh gods the recoil + Aftermath). Arcanine's an iffy member of my team... I like her, but unless I find a more solid moveset that really works, then she will probably be replaced.

Gengar @ Life Orb

Ability: Levitate

Nature: Modest

EVs: 6 HP, 252 S. ATK, 252 Speed

Role: Special Sweeper

- Shadow Ball

- Thunderbolt

- Focus Blast

- Destiny Bond

Comment: More or less the most cookie-cutter Pokemon on my team... I decided on Destiny Bond instead of Hypnosis as I find the move more useful. If I do not send her up against a priority move abuser, then Destiny Bond is a fantastic way to get a very sudden kill. I like using it to get rid of some of my opponent's most destructive Pokemon. Sure it has its disadvantages, but I prefer it over the ever unreliable Hypnosis. (The Random Number Generator tends to hate me... a lot.) The rest of the moves are just cookie-cutter... Deals with any Pokemon with at least neutral damage and uses her massive S. ATK to try and take them down swiftly, etc etc.

Dragonite @ Dragon Fang

Ability: Inner Focus

Nature: Jolly

EVs: 252 ATK, 62 DEF, 196 S. DEF

Role: Physical Sweeper

- Outrage

- Dragon Dance

- Roost

- Substitute

Comment: Dragonite's role is simply... Use Substitute to setup Dragon Dance, going for multiple if the opponent does not take it out in one hit, and then proceed to Outrage to do as much damage as possible. The Dragon type being so potent for attacking really helps this out... but there are some obvious weaknesses. Most notably... Steel types... She has nothing to deal with them. A switch-in Steel-type is likely to bring Dragonite down, but otherwise she is quite set. Roost's useful side-effect of canceling out Flying weaknesses helps her out a lot if she needs to heal, so I wanted to hang onto it instead of giving her a second attack. Went with Dragon Fang over anything else because her only attack is Outrage, so I may as well get the most out of it without sacrificing HP through Life Orb.

Milotic @ Leftovers

Ability: Marvel Scale

Nature: Modest

EVs: 252 HP, 62 DEF, 196 S. ATK

Role: Bulky Water Sweeper

- Surf

- Ice Beam

- Mirror Coat

- Recover

Comment: I decided to take one of the standard Milotic setups and adjust it a bit. I wanted her to keep her general bulkiness, while managing to do some okay damage. I, for one, really like the moves Counter and Mirror Coat. If your opponent does not know you have it, you can score some easy one-hit kills on Pokemon who normally would not be able to. If the opponent DOES know you have it, it makes them cautious and easier to predict. I prefer it over Hypnosis... I just have no luck with sleep inducing moves other than Lovely Kiss with Wide Lens to help it out. The rest is fairly cookie-cutter... Surf for decent damage, Ice Beam for poking at things weak to it, Recover when the option is there, etc.

Celebi @ SilverPowder

Ability: Natural Cure

Nature: Jolly

EVs: 130 HP, 64 DEF, 252 Speed, 64 S. DEF

Role: Set-up and Staller

- U-Turn

- Protect

- Leech Seed

- Stealth Rock

Comment: Celebi is a definite odd-ball in this group... I make use of it to perform valuable set-ups instead of being aggressive. U-Turn is its ONLY attack to work with, so it is primarily a stalling Pokemon. Stealth Rock is a given... I need at least one of my team members to have it, so may as well give it to my Pokemon designed for setting things up. Leech Seed is also a very helpful addition. I can Leech Seed -> Protect to heal up Celebi slightly before switching out with U-Turn to have it ready for the next time it should set-up Leech Seed. U-Turn also works nicely for Pokemon that have a lot of different types of moves at their disposal to hit Super Effective on multiple types. If I think they will try to hit Celebi with Ice, Fire, etc, I can switch with U-Turn to somebody who can resist the attack, or if I think they will try to predict my U-Turn, I can Protect instead and let Leech Seed cause more mayhem. Of course, this is all assuming it does not get smacked with priority moves...

Umbreon @ Leftovers

Ability: Syncronize

Nature: Impish

EVs: 252 HP, 130 DEF, 128 S. DEF

Role: Partial Wall, Wish Support, Staller

- Payback

- Protect

- Wish

- Toxic

Comment: The match I had to test out this team really put the heat on Umbreon. Having to use Celebi and Umbreon to take on the likes of a highly aggressive Suicune and Hitmonchan, but stalling managed to work out. Umbreon's setup is fairly standard... Payback for poking at enemies who it will work well on, Wish and Protect to either heal herself or to pass the heal to a team-mate, and Toxic to quickly wittle down anyone not immune to it. If the Pokemon in play has Celebi's Leech Seed on it, using Toxic tends to always be a good idea... If the opponent switches, they may get the new Pokemon badly poisoned. If not, they have Leech Seed AND Poison on the Pokemon, giving Umbreon an advantage to work with by stalling with Protect and Wish. A Sky Uppercut from the above mentioned Hitmonchan only did around 65-70% damage to her (before Leftovers), so she is bulky enough to get her job done.

Threats:

I am honestly too inexperienced to really write up a good threat list. I have only played with two opponents... one who goes all-out Offensive, and one who is more balanced. One uses uncommon Pokemon setups from various tiers, the other tends to stick mostly to regular OU tactics. Naming specific threats and finding the holes in my team is where I need the most help as the sheer difference in experience between myself and several of the posters here will help me learn a lot.

This is really my first time trying to type up something like this, so I hope my format and everything was understandable... I will learn with time, I think. =n.n=;

[wraith89]

Hmmm... it looks like a nice team. I love it when people play with their favorites instead of those overused Pokemon... they are truly boring.

So Arcanine is a lead? First off, any lead Pokemon with a priority move (moves that make you go first) should sport that priority move! Let me think... Choice Band is not so great here as it limits you to one move. Since lead vs lead matches tend to be a rock-paper-scissor-esque game and many leads love to put Arcanine status'd up, try a Lum Berry. If Roserade puts you to sleep, you can attack it with a Fire attack, and then Extremespeed it to finish it off. However, this type of Arcanine tends to lose to Metagross leads... so if you think you will see those, you can stick a Focus Sash on Arcanine instead (an item that allows a Pokemon to survive with 1 HP provided that they had full HP to begin with... ideal on lead Pokemon). Arcanine wants to be Adamant so that it can attack with all the power it can get, but since yours is Jolly...

Arcanine@Lum Berry/Focus Sash/White Herb

Intimidate

Jolly Nature

EVs: 40 HP/252 Atk/216 Speed

- Flare Blitz

- Overheat

- Toxic/Reversal/Will-o-Wisp

- Extremespeed

The speed EVs, assuming Arcanine has 31 Speed IVs, hits 308, which outspeeds max speed Lucario and other base 90 speeders. It also outspeeds neutral base 100s. To outspeed neutral base 105s you will need to have 224 Speed EVs. Then Attack is maxed and the rest are dumped into HP. The idea is, attack hard with Flare Blitz and once they are weakened enough to low HP, use Extremespeed to finish them off. Now that I think about it, Flare Blitz's recoil makes Focus Sash less than ideal, but it is there if you think something like a Metagross lead will ruin your day. Overheat is for stuff like Forretress or Skarmory or any other "I have high defense but low special defense" Pokemon. For bulky waters, intoxicate them with Toxic and switch out. Stuff like Swampert leads usually tend to Stealth Rock first so Toxic will be a nasty surprise. It also destroys leads that like to use Focus Sash. If you do not like Toxic, then use Reversal, since spamming Flare Blitz will eventually bring Arcanine to low health and Reversal will do some nasty damage on non-Ghosts. However, if the lead you are facing happens to be a physical attacker like Gyarados, Will-o-Wisp will punish them (along with Intimidate) and lower their attack level... so choose wisely. It is also helpful on Metagross, seeing how Clear Body negates Intimidate's effect and burn will help a lot. Extremespeed is always there as a finisher or a last resort when Arcanine will get KOd the next turn. Roar has no place in your lead Arcanine, seeing how it is not the bulky type that is meant to wall Gyarados.

I will finish with this rate later because I am busy at the moment. However, try to find a way to incorporate the move "Stealth Rocks" somewhere in your team. In order to sweep properly, you will need that move, or else Focus Sash users will ruin your day. I do not know what your team's type is. Is it offensive? Stall? Balanced? I tend to play defensive for the most part though, so making an offensive team is a bit challenging for me =(

EDIT: Oh yeah... White Herb is so that Overheat can attack at full power for the second time without switching.

[PinkKitty]

Ah, I can see you are busy as you missed a couple things in my post. =n.n=; When it comes to Stealth Rock, my Celebi has it as setting things up like that is its primary purpose. I also mentioned before describing the team members that my team is aiming to be balanced, thus is why half of my team is primarily offense, while the other half is primarily defense.

Aye, Arcanine is definitely where the most adjusting needs to be done. =n.n=; I still want to have her very capable of dishing out a lot of damage, but it runs the complication of she is the only member who makes a good lead, so your suggestions will definitely come in handy for me deciding on whether or not to go with something other than a Choice Band. Most likely will as the things are rather limiting, especially for a lead. Arcanine's definitely a touchy one as I really need to make use of her strengths to be able to keep up with the other powerful Pokemon of the OU tier. =n.n=

Thanks very much for the advice so far, Wraith. =n.n= I look forward to the rest of your opinion as I imagine it will all help out in one way or another quite a lot. =n.n= The test battle I put them through earlier tonight managed to let them win despite my opponent getting all the luck with the random number generator, so if I can keep making them stronger and learn more about the game, I think it could be a pretty good team eventually. =n.n=

[memjee]

Arcanine - Extremespeed is one of the few bonuses it has over it's other fire competitors, and it's real helpful agaisnt sashers. I suggest to not used choice band (or toxic or roar), focus sash is the best option for a somewhat fragile lead imo. Willowisp is great in pair with intimidate to cripple a physical attacker. The white herb Overheat combo is also a good idea

Gengar - Your gengar looks good

Dragonite - she is simply outclassed by salamence when it comes to dding, but if you insist on running dd use earthquake to rid it's problem with most steels.

Personally I would play it's strengths (Huge movepool). mixnite is a good option. it also has other useful moves such as heal bell, dual screens and t-wave

Mixnite

112 Atk / 196 SpA / 200 Spe

Super Power

Draco Meteor

Flamethower

Thunderbold

Milotic - I like it, looks great

Celebi - Max the hp evs, looks good

Umbreon - don't know my umbreon

[PinkKitty]

Arcanine - Extremespeed is one of the few bonuses it has over it's other fire competitors, and it's real helpful agaisnt sashers. I suggest to not used choice band (or toxic or roar), focus sash is the best option for a somewhat fragile lead imo. Willowisp is great in pair with intimidate to cripple a physical attacker. The white herb Overheat combo is also a good idea

Hmm... I am really liking the idea of a White Herb setup for my Arcanine. Guess I will need to get my friend to help me out with the Battle Frontier some more then since we seem to get a LOT more BP for clearing it together than we would playing single player (8BP per clear as opposed to 3BP). =n.n= ExtremeSpeed also sounds quite nice as it is the only solid priority move my current team has access to. It will really help with getting Sucker Punch off of my back... My opponent loves that move... The only thing I have against Will-O-Wisp is its accuracy... 75% is pretty low, and knowing my luck when it comes to the RNG, it will be extremely unreliable. I will have to think carefully about that fourth move-slot... Reversal, Toxic, and Will-O-Wisp all have their tempting uses... The advice is quite helpful, though, as it is letting me see the advantages of each and helping me make my team stronger. =n.n=

Dragonite - she is simply outclassed by salamence when it comes to dding, but if you insist on running dd use earthquake to rid it's problem with most steels.

Personally I would play it's strengths (Huge movepool). mixnite is a good option. it also has other useful moves such as heal bell, dual screens and t-wave

Mixnite

112 Atk / 196 SpA / 200 Spe

Super Power

Draco Meteor

Flamethower

Thunderbolt

There is only one thing I really have against the "Mixnite" setup there... You basically just copy-and-pasted that from Smogon, right? While I realize Salamance is superior for my kind of setup with its higher natural Attack than Dragonite... It is just so painfully over-used... Plus, my Dragonite has a special place with me as she is an old favourite... and happens to be shiny... I am trying to avoid my team being overly cookie-cutter... If I were to just replicate Smogon strategies for all my Pokemon, I would be tirelessly predictable for anyone who has a decent amount of experience... I can see the strengths of having a more mixed setup, but I really do not want to have a third team member that is so close/identical to a common build... =x.x=;

Now as for Earthquake... That is one I was really debating back and forth as I know it would extremely useful... I would either have to give up Roost or Substitute... From the two... I would think Roost would be the one to go. I figure when relying most on Outrage for offense, healing would not get very many opportunities. Not to mention, if anything gets an attack off on her once she starts Outraging... it is probably going to be ice type, and thus she will be dead, as I have yet to see a Pokemon survive a hit from a 4x weakness. Hmm... Earthquake really is a tempting addition... Even if my hold item does not support it... I will have to think on it. May be best for me to wait on the rest of Wraith's review so I can get a second opinion to work with. =n.n=

Celebi - Max the hp evs, looks good

Hmm... maybe I should look up damage formulas. I am getting the feeling that DEF and S. DEF help out less than raw HP when it comes to keeping the Pokemon alive. Maxing Celebi's HP sounds like a good idea, though, so I will do that. =n.n= Thanks~ Now she will be even more annoying to get rid of.

Definitely a good bit of fine-tuning so far. I am surprised that this batch of my old favourites are actually functioning pretty well together. =n.n= I think this will end up being my "main" team to use once it is fully fine-tuned. After this I will probably make a raw offense team as the opponent I play with the most really hates stall tactics so I want to make sure he has fun too. =n.n=

[wraith89]

I would agree with memjee about that Dragonite. First off... if you want Dragonite to not be outclassed by Salamence, you would NEVER run Jolly. Period. Jolly Dragonites are just Salamence-lite. Adamant, however, is pretty awesome. Because of the huge Attack stat, Dragonite will get a big attack bonus just for running Adamant while Jolly can allow you to... hit 284 speed max? That does not help outspeed anything =(

Sure that Mixnite there is a copy + paste wallbreaking Dragonite... which I myself rarely use, but nevertheless effective. In fact, I run a Dragon Dancing one too! But wait... isn't Dragonite supposed to be outclassed by Salamence on Dragon Dancing? Well, not if you take advantage of the one trait it has over Salamence: its overall bulk. That means, invest more in HP to show Salamence who is king (or queen in your case... although my Dragonite is female too).

So in this case, we can run this set of EVs (this is the Dragonite I use quite a lot... the only Salamence I use is Specsmence ):

Dragonite@Leftovers/Dragon Fang/Lum Berry/Yache Berry

Adamant Nature

224 HP/84 Atk/200 Spd

- Dragon Dance

- Outrage

- Roost

- Substitute/Earthquake/Light Screen

I have seen Salamence running very similar sets trying to outlive Lucario and take its Extremespeeds. However, Dragonite has the defensive advantage. With those EVs (assuming 31 IVs everywhere, but change your EVs accordingly to fill in those missing stats if you need to), it will hit:

379 HP/357 Attack/226 Defense/212 Special Attack/236 Special Defense/246 Speed

246 Speed is there to outpace bulky Zapdos and other stuff that like to sit at 245. It also has the advantage of outpacing max speed Jolly Tyranitars... who would lose out a lot of bulk for putting in THAT much speed... and power for using Jolly, so ha! Salamence trying to run a bulky set like that will need to adjust their EVs to 192 HP/120 Def/160 SpD/36 Spe with Adamant nature... and will hit the following stats:

379 HP/336 Attack/226 Defense/230 Special Attack/236 Special Defense/245 Speed

And as you can see, not only will it stick at 245 Speed with the same HP/Def/SpDef as that aforementioned Dragonite, but it also loses out quite a LOT of attack (21 points to be exact)! So the only reason to actually use Dragonite over Salamence would be its overall defenses... and to take advantage of its attack. Do not ever run Jolly on that thing... EVER =(

So here is the explanation. Those stats hits 246 to outpace 245ers and yadda yadda... the HP EVs are, that HP is odd numbered so that you can switch into Stealth Rocks 5 times instead of just 4, and the remaining goes into attack. If you want the optimal leftovers recovery 384 HP, run 244 HP/64 Attack/200 Speed instead, and the attack power still hits 352, which is pretty high.

As for the moveset, Dragon Dance is needed, Outrage is your usual STAB attack and not many things like to eat a STAB Outrage after a DD, Roost is there to heal the dragon's HP when it is low, and Substitute is helpful for scouting. You can replace Substitute with Earthquake so that an unsuspecting Steel who thinks Dragonite will Outrage will switch in to eat an Earthquake instead (note: there are things named Skarmory or Bronzong that will laugh at your face for doing that, but Dragonite has no business dealing with them anyways, at least not this variant). Light Screen is an option just in case something like a Vaporeon wants to come in and Ice Beam the dragon to death and makes Dragonite a better team player.

The items? Well, there is Leftovers if you like extra health recovery, but Dragonite will not be doing as much damage as wanted. Dragon Fang is there because you originally suggested it and it seems that Outrage is the only attack you are planning on using. Lum Berry... well, that somewhat defeats the whole purpose of having Substitute against status, but it is one time use. However, it has another usage: remember Outrage's secondary effect? How it confuses the user after 2-3 turns? Problem solved. Dragonite gets to go on an Outrage for another time! Yache Berry is there to reduce the potency of an Ice attack against Dragonite... it does help and Dragonite is bulky enough to take at least 1 Ice attack... from stuff not named Abomasnow or Glaceon, but that's another story.

Since your Dragonite uses Outrage, make sure you get rid of Steels and other stuff before attempting to sweep with this. Priority move users like that blasted overused Scizor with its Bullet Punch and Lucario with Extremespeed and the most dangerous against Dragonite, Mamoswine with its 130 Attack and STAB Ice Shard (!!!), should be gotten rid of. It is amazing how all three are weak to Fire, is it not? Your Arcanine could deal with Scizor easily, Lucario somewhat, but Mamoswine's EQ should be avoided and it might be lucky enough to survive a Fire attack =|

This Dragonite is a late game sweeper and is bulky enough to live through late game onslaughts not named 6 DD Gyarados =P Use it later in the game once all its threats are out and it will make your opponents cry.

(!!) Gotta go study for a test, bye!

[Illithian]

For once, I completely disagree with wraith. Dragon Dance Dragonite is a Bulkymence lite thats slower.

The fact is, with HGSS here, Dragonite has gained an unbelievably useful move: Extremespeed.

I've been using this set to extremely good effect on both Smogon and CAP ladders:

Dragonite (M) @ Life Orb

Ability: Inner Focus

EVs: 112 Atk/200 Spd/196 SAtk

Mild nature (+SAtk, -Def)

- Extremespeed

- Draco Meteor

- Flamethrower

- Superpower

As a Mixnite, it works very well. However, the thing is Extremespeed really glues the set together; thunderbolt on the old set was mostly filler, but Extremespeed lets it make the most out of every move it has. Mainly, Dragonite can use Draco Meteor and Superpower in tandem with each other with little drawbacks, as Draco Meteor lowers your special attack and Superpower lowers your attack.

Anyway, as for the rest of your team, the simple fact of the matter is that the standard cookie cutter pokemon do outclass the lower tier pokemon. Now that isn't to say the lower tier pokemon shouldn't be considered though.

Going a little more into this, Lum Berry Arcanine can work fine as a lead. Your Gengar looks close to standard. However your Celebi does't work. Firstly, SilverPowder really doesn't work. 20% more damage to U-turn may look good on paper, but losing Leftovers recovery is absolutely unacceptable especially considering your strategy with Leech Seed and Protect. Secondly remove Stealth Rock for Grass Knot. Celebi has a fair special attack to work with and its STAB Grass Knot can do quite a bit even to those who resist it, so be ready to use it. It will increase Celebi's usefulness as a whole and her staying power.

By the way, you also don't want to use Stealth Rock in the middle of a match. Most teams (barring stall) don't have time to do that: every turn counts.

Milotic... ooh it worries me because Suicune does the same thing except better.

Then we've got Umbreon. To be honest with you, I'm biased against umbreon because I think its outclassed by other stallers. But thats by the by. The nice thing is, stall pokemon aren't cookie cutter because their underused. There are great stallers in OU that simply don't get used much. I don't think umbreon is quite what you need though. See Umbreon has fantastic defenses but everything else is useless. As such, we need to be thinking about who you're using Umbreon to wall, then other pokemon can be suggested.

[wraith89]

For once, I completely disagree with wraith. Dragon Dance Dragonite is a Bulkymence lite thats slower.

Actually, you will never reach the same bulk as Dragonite with a Bulkymence and maintain an attack as powerful as Dragonite would... which I pointed out. Keep trying but you won't... unless you attack from the special side. Also it is not susceptible to Togekiss's Air Slash or Jirachi as a Bulkymence is.

And I believe she is playing on Wifi, not Shoddy so unless she lived in Japan, there is no Extremespeed sets yet aside from GTS and whatnot.

However, for Milotic, I will agree with Illithian. Suicune usually does the job better and can also Rest + Sleep Talk to get rid of status while Calm Mind boosts its Special Attack and its already impressive Special Defense. So what can Milotic do over her fellow bulky water? Hypnosis. Milotic is bulky enough to afford one miss or two if the shaky accuracy hurts. Mirror Coat is cool and all, but then again, I do not know what special attackers aside from electrics or some oddball like Specstile with Leaf Storm would actually be encouraged to attack Milotic's forte (base 125 SpDef!). They would usually attack its weaker base 79 defense, so Mirror Coat does not see much use, but it can net a surprise KO if you can predict correctly. But other than that, try Hypnosis.

[memjee]

Yea I'm not doubting it.. it was copy/pasted from smogon, that doesn't change the fact it's a better choice if you run dragonite. Actually I had no idea dragonite had extremespeed, it's something you should put into heavy consideration if you don't run dd.

I too see your point of view. I too enjoy running unique sets.

Another pointer is if you run sub on dragonite give it leftovers so you can sub more.

gl on your team, and post your changes if any.

[PinkKitty]

Wow, definitely getting a lot more feedback than I was expecting. == Thanks, everyone! Now I had best get to commenting...~

So in this case, we can run this set of EVs (this is the Dragonite I use quite a lot... the only Salamence I use is Specsmence ):

Dragonite@Leftovers/Dragon Fang/Lum Berry/Yache Berry

Adamant Nature

224 HP/84 Atk/200 Spd

- Dragon Dance

- Outrage

- Roost

- Substitute/Earthquake/Light Screen

I am liking this setup quite a bit. Sacrifices a good chunk of Attack, but the Dragon Fang will help out Outrage a lot to make it as useful as before. I do believe I shall make my Dragonite very similar to this, just gotta account for the fact that my IVs are most definitely not perfect.

For once, I completely disagree with wraith. Dragon Dance Dragonite is a Bulkymence lite thats slower.

The fact is, with HGSS here, Dragonite has gained an unbelievably useful move: Extremespeed.

...

Firstly, SilverPowder really doesn't work. 20% more damage to U-turn may look good on paper, but losing Leftovers recovery is absolutely unacceptable especially considering your strategy with Leech Seed and Protect. Secondly remove Stealth Rock for Grass Knot. Celebi has a fair special attack to work with and its STAB Grass Knot can do quite a bit even to those who resist it, so be ready to use it. It will increase Celebi's usefulness as a whole and her staying power.

By the way, you also don't want to use Stealth Rock in the middle of a match. Most teams (barring stall) don't have time to do that: every turn counts.

Milotic... ooh it worries me because Suicune does the same thing except better.

Then we've got Umbreon. To be honest with you, I'm biased against umbreon because I think its outclassed by other stallers. But thats by the by. The nice thing is, stall pokemon aren't cookie cutter because their underused. There are great stallers in OU that simply don't get used much. I don't think umbreon is quite what you need though. See Umbreon has fantastic defenses but everything else is useless. As such, we need to be thinking about who you're using Umbreon to wall, then other pokemon can be suggested.

Well, as Wraith mention, I do not have access to Heart Gold or Soul Silver, so I am stuck within Platinum's limitations. =n.n=; ExtremeSpeed sounds like a good addition for when those come out that I can use to supe up my Dragonite a bit, but it will have to wait a few months for Heart Gold to make its US/Canadian release. A priority move on a slowish Pokemon like Dragonite though, I agree, is veeeeery nice. =n.n=

Totally agreed on the general uselessness of SilverPowder. I tried it in some battles and added damage was quite bleh. Also decided to follow other advice and max out Celebi's HP EVs as the "universal defense" of HP seems to work out better than boosting the defensive stats... weird how that always seems to be the case in the majority of damage formulas. I do have a reason for Stealth Rock being on Celebi in particular... I will explain that more further into the post as I have changes to discuss~

I have a couple reason for picking Milotic over others like Suicune. The biggest reason is simply that I really love Milotic. The stats and what she can do is not really a concern to me, I just love her design~ She is sufficiently strong enough to keep going against the stronger Pokemon out there, so I want to keep her on my team. =n.n= Most of the pretty/elegant/cute Pokemon out there are either very weak, or a bit TOO strong (Mew). It is merely a case of picking favourites over picking what is statistically best. ...Also my friends and I tend to follow a rule of only one legendary per team, and Celebi was my choice, thus, no room for Suicune. =n.n=;

Umbreon... I wanted at least one of the Eeveelutions on my team as I love every single one of them... just... most get wiped out way too easily. The poor things are by no means balanced as some are dramatically more useful than the others (Jolteon, Vaporeon, Umbreon). My Umbreon actually puts up a pretty strong defense from its experience in battle. She is kind of stuck acting as a "universal" wall of sorts, since I have no secondary wall (unless Milotic counts... not really). Her purpose is more of being a helpful cleric and Toxic... Valuable, valuable Toxic. I know there are better Pokemon for the job, but I really do want a team with a few of my favourites on it... =n.n=;

So what can Milotic do over her fellow bulky water? Hypnosis. Milotic is bulky enough to afford one miss or two if the shaky accuracy hurts. Mirror Coat is cool and all, but then again, I do not know what special attackers aside from electrics or some oddball like Specstile with Leaf Storm would actually be encouraged to attack Milotic's forte (base 125 SpDef!). They would usually attack its weaker base 79 defense, so Mirror Coat does not see much use, but it can net a surprise KO if you can predict correctly. But other than that, try Hypnosis.

Well, in my case the opponent differences makes a strong impact on my decision to keep Mirror Coat. I tend to face opponents who take totally different approaches than what is commonly seen on Smogon, and Shoddy, etc. My opponent tends to get very nervous when he knows Mirror Coat is a threat, and that nervousness can help me out a lot. That, and I cannot properly describe my poor luck with Hypnosis... it is just awful. I suppose I DO have my current Milotic's parents handy, though, I could breed another to use Hypnosis and have the two of them be swappable with one another so I do not have to worry about erasing Egg Moves. =n.n= I will give it some thought.

Yea I'm not doubting it.. it was copy/pasted from smogon, that doesn't change the fact it's a better choice if you run dragonite. Actually I had no idea dragonite had extremespeed, it's something you should put into heavy consideration if you don't run dd.

I too see your point of view. I too enjoy running unique sets.

Another pointer is if you run sub on dragonite give it leftovers so you can sub more.

gl on your team, and post your changes if any.

Ah~ Since I play on the official game I only have so many hold items to go around. I know a lot of you use Shoddy so you can get them via a drop-down list, but I have to get them the hard way! Right now I only have 2 Leftovers and they currently belong to Milotic and Umbreon so that puts a hitch in giving them to anyone else, so I had to improvise a bit. =n.n=; Thanks for the well-wishes, though. =n.n=

Alrighty... now then...

The following is the list of changes I have made to my team...

Arcanine @ White Herb

Ability: Intimidate

Nature: Jolly

EVs: 6 HP, 252 ATK, 252 Speed

Role: Lead, Physical Sweeper

- Flare Blitz

- Overheat

- ExtremeSpeed

- Reversal/Toxic

Comment: I decided to leave her EVs alone. I face very unconventional opponents, so it is nice to be able to out-speed odd builds, too. For example, my usual opponent's Weavile is actually SLOWER than my Arcanine... yikes. I have a distinct hatred for Metagross, so naturally the idea of having Overheat handy sounded like a good idea to me. Alternatively I can just switch in Gengar to try for Focus Blast since she can dodge Earthquake... I guess the main thing to consider is whether or not said Metagross will try to open with Agility or something. I tend to like Toxic over Will-O-Wisp. The gradually increasing Poison damage and higher accuracy sounds nicer to me than slightly lowered attack and lower accuracy of Will-O-Wisp. I also like Reversal since I only have one other, rather inaccurate, Fighting move to work with. Having a second one would be nice... I will have to experiment with both, perhaps.

Dragonite @ Dragon Fang

Ability: Inner Focus

Nature: Adamant

EVs: 206 HP, 84 ATK, 220 Speed

Role: Physical Sweeper

- Outrage

- Dragon Dance

- Roost

- Earthquake/Substitute

Comment: HP is the universal defense, so may as well make use of the bulk as Wraith suggested. =n.n= Arcanine is my preferred early-battle physical attacker, so Dragonite is indeed the one to come in later and try to clean things up. I left her with the Dragon Fang to get as much out of Outrage as I can (like I said, no more Leftovers). Debating between Earthquake and Substitute. Substitute works for stopping attempts to lay statuses on her, and works very well to setup a Dragon Dance when she is slower than the opponent (at first). However... no one else on my entire team has a Ground attack, so this makes Earthquake very desirable and helps with a lot of Dragonite's weaknesses... This is another one I will have to swap around a bit and see which I end up ultimately liking better. Right now, leaning towards Earthquake. I refuse to use Salamance... the blasted thing is uuuugly and horribly over-used... *hugs her shiny Dragonite*

Celebi @ Miracle Seed

Ability: Natural Cure

Nature: Jolly

EVs: 252 HP, 252 Speed, 6 S. ATK

Role: Set-up and Staller

- U-Turn

- Protect

- Leech Seed

- Grass Knot/Stealth Rock

Comment: More of the whole "HP is the universal defense" thing. Beefed up her HP to as high as it will go, and now I hit a small problem. Celebi is the only ideal member for me to have Stealth Rock on... Should someone's lead be a counter to Arcanine, I can switch in Celebi for just about anyone (other than Rock) to take minimal damage and setup the Stealth Rocks. If it is a Water type that also has an Ice move at their disposal, I can switch out with U-Turn... This is a bit finnicky, though... Thus, I look into the suggestion of Grass Knot. One problem is, this is my only Celebi... and it is Jolly. I also have no Leftovers left to give to it. Thus, the question would be, is Grass Knot REALLY worth giving up Stealth Rock? I suppose I can give both a shot and see how much damage Grass Knot is capable of. I gave it a Miracle Seed in hopes that it can make Grass Knot's damage within acceptable strength. I shall have to see how it turns out...

Phew... sorry for the text wall. You all have been so helpful that I had a whole lot to talk about, hehe. =n.n= I am still very open to further feedback now that I have had time to comment on everything and post up my changes. =n.n= Thanks once again~

[wraith89]

Well, in my case the opponent differences makes a strong impact on my decision to keep Mirror Coat. I tend to face opponents who take totally different approaches than what is commonly seen on Smogon, and Shoddy, etc. My opponent tends to get very nervous when he knows Mirror Coat is a threat, and that nervousness can help me out a lot. That, and I cannot properly describe my poor luck with Hypnosis... it is just awful. I suppose I DO have my current Milotic's parents handy, though, I could breed another to use Hypnosis and have the two of them be swappable with one another so I do not have to worry about erasing Egg Moves. =n.n= I will give it some thought.

LOL I do not play on Smogon often (I think I only did three times in total!)... but I suppose Mirror Coat has its own uses. If you were to play on Shoddy, you would see more things running Hidden Power Electric (just because they get to manipulate their IVs and whatnot). And you are right. Wifi is a different environment from Shoddy, and I like it that way. But if you want to try an abusive set, try a Bold Milotic with 252 HP/252 Def/6 SpA with Rest + Sleep Talk + Ice Beam + Surf. It is pretty fun because not only is status no longer a problem, but Rest activates Marvel Scale. And I am glad to see people play with their favorites, not because one thing outclasses another. Hypnosis is a bummer... everybody here knows me and how much RNG hates me (just ask ANYONE here) and it always misses for me but everytime they use it it always tends to hit... and when I DO hit, they wake up immediately.

As for Celebi? You sure love speed boosting Pokemon o_o

Where did you get one anyways? Since yours is a - SpA version, I would try something along the lines of Swords Dance + Baton Pass. Baton Pass at least is not affected by Pursuit, but U-turn could be useful I suppose. Do you have a spare Leftovers? Leftovers is probably the most useful item for Celebi. But then again... there is nothing you can really pass SD to other than Dragonite or Arcanine... so what about...

Celebi@Leftovers

Jolly Nature

252 HP/6 Atk/252 Speed

- Leech Seed/Baton Pass

- Seed Bomb

- Swords Dance/U-turn

- Protect/Substitute

Subseeding is a pain... and Sword Dancing to attack with STAB Seed Bomb is an even bigger pain. I just don't know what to do with your Celebi though... I will have to think about it more because I do not know how exactly it benefits your team... the dryad does take water/ground attacks aimed at Arcanine and grass/electric attacks aimed at Milotic though...

[Illithian]

Okay, since you don't use Shoddy, that changes things. Anyway, lets go:

For Arcanine, White Herb + Overheat can work very well; however, beware of Focus Sash. Thankfully Arcanine gets Extremespeed to take out Sashers. Also, a warning, often Metagross runs Occa Berry, which will halve any Fire damage, so you may want to open with Flare Blitz when facing Metagross just in case. By the way, burn halves the opponent's attack, which is massively important against many physical attackers, especially Gyarados. And its great to hit random Arcanine switch-ins, who are often physical and ground or rock type. Still, Flare Blitz + Overheat is very useful and don't get rid of Extremespeed. I would consider W-o-W over Reversal/Toxic. Really, it depends how much you fear Rock types (Tyranitar).

If you run Outrage on Dragonite, then using Dragon Fang is acceptable, as it will seriously boost damage. 20% more damage coming from a 180 base power move (including STAB) boosts it to 216 base power, which is a respectable damage boost. If you have access to a Life Orb, consider that. I would use Earthquake over Substitute until you get another Leftovers.

For Celebi, I understand your problem, as its very difficult to get multiple Celebi's. Fortunately there is a solution. The great thing about Celebi is that it has base 100 everything, including attack. Not only that, but for a Grass type move which gets STAB, you can use Seed Bomb to get a nice 80 power physical move to replace Grass Knot. Its not a solid replacement but its very unexpected and will do respectable amounts of damage. However if you need Stealth Rock, its worth keeping.

I'm going to give you one more piece of advice, and its about Gengar. Gengar is a good special sweeper, but really falls to Scizor with Bullet Punch. Perhaps another special sweeper in the OU group would work. Since you don't have legendaries available, I'd reccomend selecting from this group:

Empoleon - SubPetaya can do unbelievable amounts of damage. Torrent boosted Surfs with a petaya boost is extremely powerful.

Togekiss - Paraflinch (Paralysis + Flinch) is very powerful, because with Togekiss's Serene Grace, theres little chance of an opponent pulling off an attack. You can also run Nasty Plot if you want.

Anyway can't think of any more on the spot.

[PinkKitty]

As for Celebi? You sure love speed boosting Pokemon o_o

Where did you get one anyways? Since yours is a - SpA version, I would try something along the lines of Swords Dance + Baton Pass. Baton Pass at least is not affected by Pursuit, but U-turn could be useful I suppose. Do you have a spare Leftovers? Leftovers is probably the most useful item for Celebi. But then again... there is nothing you can really pass SD to other than Dragonite or Arcanine... so what about...

Celebi@Leftovers

Jolly Nature

252 HP/6 Atk/252 Speed

- Leech Seed/Baton Pass

- Seed Bomb

- Swords Dance/U-turn

- Protect/Substitute

Subseeding is a pain... and Sword Dancing to attack with STAB Seed Bomb is an even bigger pain. I just don't know what to do with your Celebi though... I will have to think about it more because I do not know how exactly it benefits your team... the dryad does take water/ground attacks aimed at Arcanine and grass/electric attacks aimed at Milotic though...

Well... I really like to be able to go first if I have no speed boosting buff to make use of. =n.n=; In Celebi's case, it is vital for it to go first so it can poke with U-Turn, then escape. I use this primarily for baiting things like Ice Punch so I can transfer the hit over to someone else while still doing some damage. I will have to do a damage comparison between Grass Knot and Seed Bomb to see which works out better... With my current setup, Grass Knot was able to do around 55-60% damage to my friend's Suicune, so that is fairly acceptable. Definitely came in handy... that thing is annoying. Celebi seems to be pretty tough, too... Said Suicune's Blizzard only managed around 60% as well. Knowing my friend, it probably had a good 200+ EVs into S. ATK. He favours pure offense. =n.n=;

That aside... the Celebi itself is basically a clone. A friend of mine got one via event in third gen (apparently) and thus a clone was made. Cannot tell if it was really gotten from the event or not, so legality is questionable, but eh, its stats are most definitely believeable so I will use it anyways... =n.n=; I have no spare Leftovers to give it, though. I would need to receive that from a trade since I only have Platinum, and only one DS, thus, no trading to myself from other versions. =n.n=;

Okay, since you don't use Shoddy, that changes things. Anyway, lets go:

For Arcanine, White Herb + Overheat can work very well; however, beware of Focus Sash. Thankfully Arcanine gets Extremespeed to take out Sashers. Also, a warning, often Metagross runs Occa Berry, which will halve any Fire damage, so you may want to open with Flare Blitz when facing Metagross just in case. By the way, burn halves the opponent's attack, which is massively important against many physical attackers, especially Gyarados. And its great to hit random Arcanine switch-ins, who are often physical and ground or rock type. Still, Flare Blitz + Overheat is very useful and don't get rid of Extremespeed. I would consider W-o-W over Reversal/Toxic. Really, it depends how much you fear Rock types (Tyranitar).

If you run Outrage on Dragonite, then using Dragon Fang is acceptable, as it will seriously boost damage. 20% more damage coming from a 180 base power move (including STAB) boosts it to 216 base power, which is a respectable damage boost. If you have access to a Life Orb, consider that. I would use Earthquake over Substitute until you get another Leftovers.

For Celebi, I understand your problem, as its very difficult to get multiple Celebi's. Fortunately there is a solution. The great thing about Celebi is that it has base 100 everything, including attack. Not only that, but for a Grass type move which gets STAB, you can use Seed Bomb to get a nice 80 power physical move to replace Grass Knot. Its not a solid replacement but its very unexpected and will do respectable amounts of damage. However if you need Stealth Rock, its worth keeping.

I'm going to give you one more piece of advice, and its about Gengar. Gengar is a good special sweeper, but really falls to Scizor with Bullet Punch. Perhaps another special sweeper in the OU group would work. Since you don't have legendaries available, I'd reccomend selecting from this group:

Empoleon - SubPetaya can do unbelievable amounts of damage. Torrent boosted Surfs with a petaya boost is extremely powerful.

Togekiss - Paraflinch (Paralysis + Flinch) is very powerful, because with Togekiss's Serene Grace, theres little chance of an opponent pulling off an attack. You can also run Nasty Plot if you want.

Anyway can't think of any more on the spot.

*shudders* Oh gods how I HATE Metagross... The thing's stats are simply ridiculous considering it is not even a legendary, and its typing is a huge pain, too! Especially since most Fire and Ground attacks are physical and not special... The result of one of those with a Focus Sash or Occa Berry is definitely going to come down to the individual decisions made I suppose... I COULD switch in Gengar to dodge the inevitable Earthquake, but it may be going for Agility... I hate those things... In regards to Will-O-Wisp, though... 50% decrese or no, I just have an extreme hatred for moves with below 80% accuracy. They constantly let me down, especially when I need it to hit the most. Gengar's Focus Blast already annoys me enough as is... =n.n=;; I do not deny Will-O-Wisp's usefulness, I just seemed to be destined to fail with it... *shakes fist at the RNG and grumbles*

Only problem I see with using a Life Orb on my Dragonite with her current setup is the fact that it kind of defeats the purpose of her being bulky... =n.n=; The extra 10% it would boost Outrage does not really seem worth it when she would lose 20-30% of her sizeable HP just using the move to its completion. Cursed Ice attacks, though. The one test battle I put Version 2 through so far, my opponent had 5 out of 6 Pokemon with at least one Ice attack. No chance for Dragonite to survive, whatsoever... ow.

Seed Bomb, Grass Knot, Stealth Rock... I may have to load up my Shoddy test server to run some experiments to find out which would be most useful. Stealth Rock's damage is really pitiful on anything not weak to Rock... and having a Grass attack would be nice, especially against things like Swampert. Hmm... my Celebi's definitely a weird one... it may be considered gimmicky, but so far she has been very helpful! It can take a hit from my team's weaknesses really easily, which is a definite plus. Leftovers would definitely help for setting up Leech Seed though... A third one would be nice. =n.n=;

A couple problems turn up when suggesting to replace Gengar... It is probably a bad idea for me to have the same weakness on more than two Pokemon of my team. Gengar helps out by only sharing a weakness with one another party member, Celebi.

With Empoleon in there, it and Umbreon would be Fighting weak, and it and Arcanine would be Ground weak. Ground being especially bad due to how common it is... Gengar lets me switch it in from Arcanine to dodge Ground attacks, which is a nice way to help out as a team-mate. Only other switch-ins I have being Celebi and Dragonite. Empoleon's definitely not a bad option, but it may not help the team as much as Gengar.

Togekiss has a clear problem... Ice and Rock. Having it in my team would result in half of my team being weak to both Ice and Rock resulting in a rather glaring weakness. =n.n=; What is worse, that would make my ENTIRE main offensive half weak to Rock... Not good at all. =n.n=; ...as for Para + Flinch... I try to not go too over-board with the evil strategies. =n.n=; I want my friends to have fun battling and not just get extremely frustrated from such nasty tactics... I know I put limitations on my team's abilities with such additional little "rules out of respect", but it is a game, and the goal of a game is for everyone who plays to have fun, not just the winner. =n.n=

I am definitely liking the second version of my team over the first, though. I feel they work together better than before.

I do have a small video of me trying out the team... You need to be signed into YouTube to view it though. It also is a limited access private video (did not want to break my current series), but if you want to view it, then here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch_private?v=LbaC8z_yZoo&sharing_token=0epyxLyNjCYn4e9amfwC6Q==

I recorded it via getting my cartridge's save file and using that within an emulator, thus the game's framerate may vary, but at least the visual quality is as good as it will get. =n.n= (Music was recommended by Roahm, my friend. )

Thanks once again, all. =n.n= I have a few more things to think about now~

EDIT: Oh right, forgot to mention... The video also shows another reason why I like Destiny Bond... Roahm's Weavile had a Focus Sash on it, but a Focus Sash does not protect against Destiny Bond! =n.n= Thus, not taking the gamble with Focus Blast's low accuracy ended up being the BEST choice in that situation...

[Illithian]

Several things to point out. First of all, sub-petaya Empoleon will do a massive amount of damage. Torrent boosted Surf is unimaginably powerful. Not to mention Agility will let this Empoleon outspeed much of an opposing team.

Aside from that, in your video, you exemplify why Umbreon is bad. Yes, it can take a hit, but its so slow and pathetically weak that it can't do anything to an opponent. The most Umbreon can do is toxic and try to stay alive, which is useless. There are plenty of other things you could use. Cresselia works well, and negates your ground issue. She can also do lots of fun gimmicky stuff like Lunar Dance, but also useful things like Charge Beam, Calm Mind, Wish, and other things that let her stall but proceed to be able to deal damage. Unfortunately Cress is a legendary, but... =|

Dusknoir can do something, but lack of instant recovery or anything really makes him bad. Lets see... Gliscor has immunity to ground and resists fighting, along with his massive defense can be a great replacement for Umbreon. Hes also fast, and has plenty of attack and a really useful Earthquake STAB. I highly reccomend him to replace Umbreon.

Umm...

Yeah, my advice for now

[PinkKitty]

*nods* Overall I am definitely not opposed to swapping out Umbreon (least favourite of the Eeveelutions... Looks more like a dog, the rest remind me more cats... =n.n=; ), but the big question is with whom... Right now Umbreon works as my main defensive staller, and has Wish to give other members of my team a second chance. Unfortunately in the video, by the time I sent her out, Umbreon really had nothing left to do other than try to poke Machamp once or twice to make really darn sure Grass Knot would kill it... In a previous battle, Umbreon ended up being one of the key reasons why I survived by using Toxic on Suicune and healing Celebi... but yeah... offensively, Umbreon has absolutely nothing to offer...

The big question is who to replace her with that will not open up a gaping weakness to my team... Gliscor's definitely out due to not only being weak to Ice, but 4x weak to it! Definitely not able to replace a key defensive member with a glaring weakness like that... and with Dragonite already being 4x weak to Ice, that creates a rather noticeable problem.

Oh, was not aware that Empoleon learned Agility... =n.n=; That would help a lot provided I can switch one in at an opportune time to slip in Agility. Of course... what would the hold item be...? Leftovers is out, and Life Orb would really be risking it considering it would not have much HP left to offer up to said Life Orb... Hmm... I do already have two switch-ins to handle Ground types, so Gengar's Levitate is not essential... Thanks to Agility, Empoleon does indeed sound potent, but how to make it work best...

Perhaps I should list off my most liked Pokemon to give some sort of list of the ones I like to use or something...

[wraith89]

To get Agility on Empoleon, you need a female penguin to breed with a male Floatzel with Agility (not so hard, is it?)

The problem is, Empoleon has amazing resistances, but his three weaknesses (Electric/Fighting/Ground) are too common. We cannot add another Ghost in your team because that would give you THREE Pokemon weak to stuff like Tyranitar or other darks, which is not good at all... and adding Empoleon means another Ground weakness. Joy.

So you have Arcanine/Milotic/Dragonite/Celebi/Gengar/Umbreon...

A physical wall... what about Skarmory? Insane physical defenses, can spike/stealth rock, roost away damage, and blow stuff away... however it hates fire and electric moves and most special attacks in general. I suppose Celebi can take electric attacks and fire attacks can be directed at Arcanine/Dragonite/Milotic... hmm... and it can wall most Metagross and blow them away while racking up SR or Spikes damage)

Skarmory@Leftovers/Shed Shell (first item for recovery, second to escape from Magnezone, which Skarm absolutely hates)

Impish Nature

252 HP/X Def/X Speed (switch around the speed to hit 180-182 and put the rest in defense... and put some in attack if you feel you are not doing enough damage. Someone tells me with 212 Attack Skarmory can OHKO any Infernapes using Brave Bird in switch-ins... but max HP is a must.)

- Whirlwind (breed with Pidgeot or Staraptor to get this, if not, use Roar)

- Spikes/Stealth Rock (pick one, but Skarmory is one of the few capable spikers while so many stuff can SR, but you are lacking someone to SR)

- Roost (must have)

- Drill Peck/Brave Bird (first one needs breeding with Fearow or Dodrio, the latter needs breeding with Staraptor)

Edited November 13, 2009 by wraith89

[PinkKitty]

Skarmory... does not sound like a bad idea at all, really. Especially considering my main opponent seems to come at me with physical Electric attacks instead of Special ones... I do have a different Skarmory trained so I would have that parent available... I shall post the old Skarmory's setup just because she was specifically raised as a gimmick to use in Roahm and I's all STEEL type battle.

Skarmory @ BrightPowder

Ability: Keen Eye

Nature: Careful

EVs: 100 HP, 150 ATK, 60 DEF, 100 S. DEF, 100 Speed

Role: Being annoying

- Aerial Ace

- Mud-Slap

- Spikes

- Roost

Can you tell this was well before I started doing a lot of reading on how to make my Pokemon stronger? Much as I listed on the role, this gimmicky Skarmory's task was to do nothing more than abuse the heck out of accuracy lowering... I have the replay of the ridiculiusly gimmicky battle here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch_private?v=xFF7am_QjCE&sharing_token=v1ilCa_VFop28FDJQ1SeAg== (We chose a slow BGM for this one due to my... shenanigans... )

That aside... Skarmory is DEFINITELY an option for replacing Umbreon. Finding a moment to use Wish without making it too easy to predict what I am going to do is rare... very rare. Skarmory has that delightful habit of being a Steel type, and the Flying type compliments it beautifully to avoid the two most common weaknesses. I suppose I have a couple birdies to put into the daycare, then, as raising another Skarmory for the sake of trying this out sounds like a plan. =n.n= I will probably go with Stealth Rocks over Spikes just because of how much longer it takes to lay down Spikes... Three turns is a lot to give up to get optimal damage out of them. Chances are Whirlwind will only find itself used if I think Skarmory can survive a hit from one of its weaknesses to blow away the offending Pokemon. =n.n=;

[memjee]

If you can obtain petaya berry with your empoleon that would be by far the best choice.

It's a known combo and personally is my favorite.

Empoleon - Petaya Berry Modest

Agility

Substitute

Surf

Icebeam/Grass Knot

Once again, this is a smogon moveset. So you might be turned off by it.

Bring it to one of it's 12 resistences. Agility.. then keep subbing until you reach 25% or less. Petaya Berry and Torrent activates and you can begin to sweep. Problem is it's a one time thing and blissey ways this. And so does vapoureon if you run icebeam. That's it's gameplan, it's easy if you know when to do it

[Illithian]

Alright Pink heres my quick advice here:

1. I still reccomend Gliscor, as hes a great physical wall, but his ice weakness is... bad

2. Skarmory is very difficult to use effectively. Use Brave Bird (very good attack), and Roost, and you'll want to use Whirlwind. Spikes is up to you, if you want to use Whirlwind a lot then you can go with it, but its rather long to set up.

However Skarmory gets STEALTH ROCK! Which means you can take Stealth Rock off your Celebi (finally) and use it on a Skarm. I highly reccomend this. Using a Skarmory set with Brave Bird / Roost / Whirlwind / Stealth Rock has setup options and tons of walling potential. Just be careful not to leave it in on a fire attack and liberally switch in Milotic as Skarmory has pathetic special defense.