Yanmega for OU - Umbreon for UU/NU

[TERRA#493]

Pokémon: Yanmega

Current Tier: UU

Wished Tier: OU

I'd like to make use of my rights as a human, to choose Yanmega for OU.. (Nevermind, it just matches, because in Germany are currently the choices for the new Federa Chancellor =D). So yeah, back to topic ^^

What the Hell is the reason for putting that big, scary, fucking speedy insect (i'm talking about Yanmega) to UU? Common, a SpAtk Stat of 361, a skyhigh speed after just one Speed Boost it is a threat which everybody has to fear. Even in OU is can cause so much havoc - Azelf, Infernape, Alakazam, Machamp, Celebi, Cresselia are just 6 which not want to face Yanmega, with its STABed Bug Buzz or Air Slash. With HP Ground even Heatran cannot stop it. And just remember it's Hypnosis move. Nobody wants to defeat one Pokémon, because it misses with a move. The only real Pokémon (all Tier) who can do something against this thing are Blissey and Relaxo, Skarmory, Registeel and maybe 3 or 4 more. With its not-to-bad defenses it should survive at least one neutral hit. It can switch in on any Eartquake, Grass Knot, U-Turn too, which are very common moves, to get a Speed Boost and then sweep. So yeah, i'll add now all points, that speak for putting Yanmega back to OU.

! Impressive SpAtk, skyhigh speed thanks to Speed Boost

! One Speed Boost is almost garanted, because of decent defenses / Protect / Substitute / Focus Sash

! Good type-coverage with Bug Buzz + Air Slash + HP Ground

! Hypnosis as a sleep inducing move

! Very useful switch-in-opportunities, e.g. in Grass Knot, Eartquake, U-Turn or Close Combat

His only contra are really 4-time-weak to Stealth Rock and Hypnosis bad accurate. But with a Rapid Spinner the problem with Stealth Rock should be solved. Actually not really everybody has a Stealth Rock layer in his team too.

So, i just can say: YANMEGA FOR OU.

___

Oh, and just short: Umbreon is too useless in OU, where Close Combats from Infernape 7 Heracross or other heavy physical hits are too strong for it. All a Umbreon can do is really it's role as a Toxic Staller or as a Trap Passer, but as a Toxic Staller in OU, where Steel-Types like Metagross, Jirachi or Skarmory are on the field, it really has not much success.

[Gin]

Yes, multiple people here have treated Yanmega as BL/OU for a while. Thing is, does Umbreon mess up UU? That matters more then it failing in OU.

[randomspot555]

With a x4 weakness to rock plus the multilpe weaknesses Flying typing gives it, I don't see it having much hope outside of a lead Pokemon.

It's offensive movepool is also fairly shallow. It's one of the many special sweepers that basically needs a good HP to round out a Specs set. Compare that to Starmie, Gengar, and others who can utilize HP, but don't rely on it.

[wraith89]

With a x4 weakness to rock plus the multilpe weaknesses Flying typing gives it, I don't see it having much hope outside of a lead Pokemon.

It's offensive movepool is also fairly shallow. It's one of the many special sweepers that basically needs a good HP to round out a Specs set. Compare that to Starmie, Gengar, and others who can utilize HP, but don't rely on it.

It is also a revenge killer... and it is pretty potent. Yanmega is one of those Pokemon that is potent in UU/BL... but multiple testings with it in the UU tier pretty much showed that Yanmega is very dominant in UU battling (just ask the many people in Shoddy, we've all had troubles with Yanmega even with Stealth Rocks around). Sure its offensive movepool is fairly shallow but Garchomp was pretty much the same and look what happened to him. Bug Buzz and Air Slash STAB is pretty potent, Protect gives it scouting abilities and a free speed boost and Hypnosis has a chance of putting its switch-ins (like Scizor or stuff) to sleep... although unreliable.

That being said, I think Yanmega is too strong for UU (from massive personal experiences, not theorymoning)... the reason why it has been put in UU is because "HUR HUR ITZ TEH 4X STEALTH ROX WEAKZORS" and all. Sure it won't be completely dominating in OU, but it is able to take down many Pokemon in there, such as Azelf, Heracross, Celebi, and Infernape (believe it or not) and is a force in OU on its own. I can be wrong, but that is what I gather from using and trying to fight Yanmega itself (or me being extremely unlucky with Hypnosis always hitting me and it always criticaling me but whatever...)

Umbreon in OU on the other hand... o_o

I do not think it really belongs there. Easily Tauntable, Bug and Fighting weak, it really will not last long. I'm not saying it cannot work in OU, it can with the proper support, but usually it is Umbreon that is doing the support... and being Scizor/Heracross/Infernape/Lucario/Machamp weak and being Taunt bait is not pretty. =/

What dictates a tier is if it is too strong for something... it gets banned to the next level. Yanmega I think does break UU, and Umbreon seems to somewhat break UU as well... although it does not consistently perform well in OU (it does though if you can work it, I have done it), but Umbreon is too tough to take down in UU. Probably BL... but that is all I can say. It has no business in UU/NU... just promotes greater stall wars there which is annoying (as if Articuno was not enough already who actually has speed and has STAB Ice Beam)... Sure stuff like the Hitmons can take Umbreon, but then again, stuff like Blastoise can take down Tyranitar but is still UU for a reason.

As for the UU tier itself...

http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue3/featured_uu_rmt

http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue3/uu_analysis

Take a look at these Pokemon featured from the UU list. No longer do we see the Nidos or Blastoise or Vileplume but we see stuff that were former OU/BL dominating like Roserade (which seems pretty OU to me aside from being physically frail) and Milotic. What do you think has happened? =O

[Enkidu]

e reason why it has been put in UU is because "HUR HUR ITZ TEH 4X STEALTH ROX WEAKZORS"

Actually it dropped in ranking because people weren't using it enough and with it being Stealth rock weak, shallow movepool and easily counter-able by priority users ( scizor/Lucario anyone? )

Which also means that with SS up and SR on the field, even if you switch in Yanmega, and then switch out to trap and kill scizor/Lucario, Yanmega is then useless. Which makes it a one shot pokemon. ( as a late game sweeper it functions extremely well, assuming you aren't faced against an End game Priority user. )

Its UU status also isn't definitive, however people still aren't using it so smogon can't really get any numbers and give it a clear tier standing. And until further large scale testing is posted I don't think anyone can really make that decision here. Posting one or two war stories about how you swept someones team with a yanmega does not give anyone a clear understanding/overview of Yanmega's ability . Even more so here as everything is about consistency .

As for Umbreon, the abundance of Bug/Fighting attacks really makes it not that hard to counter. Umbreon breaking UU is a joke, however like yanmega it can be a potent force if used properly and is a decent UU option if you know how to use it properly.

[TERRA#493]

I've expected, that still some people don't want to let Yanmega in OU. But why? It is just scary in UU...

And do you know the Reversaler Yanmega? If you use the right EVs (104 Atk, 252 SpA, 152 Spe) and a Liechi Berry, it can even annihilate Blissey/Relaxo in OU and Registeel / Steelix / Regice in UU, while still fire off powerful special moves. You must remember: I don't have anything against a Yanmega with Tinted Lens ability, but with Speed Boost, it is just scary.. which doesn't mean, i underestimate Tinted Lens Yanmega however.

And to Umbreon: It doesn't matter to me, what happens with Umbreon at all, but in OU it just has not many chances to be effective. In UU it could at least try to Toxic one (because in UU there are not that common Steel-types like in OU Metagross, Jirachi, Magnezone, Forretress, Skarmory etc.) and stall him out. In UU there aren't THAT much Close Combats and importantly no Heracross, which can easily annihilate Umbreon.

[wraith89]

Actually it dropped in ranking because people weren't using it enough and with it being Stealth rock weak, shallow movepool and easily counter-able by priority users ( scizor/Lucario anyone? )

Which also means that with SS up and SR on the field, even if you switch in Yanmega, and then switch out to trap and kill scizor/Lucario, Yanmega is then useless. Which makes it a one shot pokemon. ( as a late game sweeper it functions extremely well, assuming you aren't faced against an End game Priority user. )

Its UU status also isn't definitive, however people still aren't using it so smogon can't really get any numbers and give it a clear tier standing. And until further large scale testing is posted I don't think anyone can really make that decision here. Posting one or two war stories about how you swept someones team with a yanmega does not give anyone a clear understanding/overview of Yanmega's ability . Even more so here as everything is about consistency .

Yes, Yanmega is easily revenge killed from the likes of Scizor or Lucario with their blasted priority attacks and with the right prediction, someone can get a free SD while Yanmega Protects. The lack of movepool also does hurt it, but I still cannot see it in UU. Perhaps the usage dropped because of the reduction of Hypnosis's accuracy? Back in DP I recall it being OU and people spamming it everywhere. Not to say Yanmega is uncounterable (Honchkrow seems to do well against Yanmega although it cannot take repeated STAB Air Slash or Bug Buzz) but it seems to be quite a force in UU, always taking down at least 1 Pokemon before it falls.

[Illithian]

Smogon is suspecting it, and I'm curious for the arguments their UU team puts up, as its their largest suspect group ever.

[blazerz144]

Personally I think Umbreon is effective in the OU tier. I play OU a lot, and i find umbreon to be very helpful.

massive def and spec def with good Hp

learns payback which doubles in damage after being hit + stab. can learn toxic, which is useful on almost any pokemon.

can learn substitute + moonlight which is great for stalling. when paired with infernape/blaziken and a psychic type its almost unbeatable because the only things umb has trouble killing are bug fighting and steel.

Edited February 22, 2010 by randomspot555

[Shogun]

Yanmega is too strong for UU, but too weak for OU. It's best put in BL.Yanmega is a great Pokemon in my opinion, but is now a gimmik in OU.

Yanmega's big downfalls is it's Stealth Rock weakness, weaknesses to many of common types in OU such as Fire, Ice and that it falls short to 1HKO most things. Although it has some great resistances, such Grass, Fighting, and Ground. Unfortunately, most Pokes have a secondary attack in which hinder or KO it with Stealth Rock. (Swampert has Ice Beam, Celebi has Thunderwave, and Lucario can use other attacks to 2HO)

It's a great threat, but fails to 1HKO most pokes. A lot of the things like Gyarados, Salamence, Tyranitar, Scizor, Swampert, and Vaporeon, are not 1KOed, even with an item and Stealth Rock to boost it's potential. A lot of people now use Rotoms, Skarmory and Zapdos which wall Yanmega.

As for how I would recommend a Yanmega to be used:

Yanmega - Modest - Life Orb/Petaya Berry

28 HP, 8 Defense, 252 Special Attack, 216 Speed.

Air Slash

Bug Buzz

Hidden Power-Ground

Protect/Substitute

Life Orb is my favorite set, it allows it to drain it's health down quickly on both it'self and the oposing.

Life Orb allows it to 1HKO Lucario and Heatran with Hidden Power-Ground.The Substitute+Petaya Berry is also usable, using Substitute till Yanmega's HP is under 33% to activate Peteya Berry and increasing Yanmega's Special Attack by one level. It also gives Yanmega a chance to hide behind in case something used a move like Stealth Rock or switches out. This set often fails because many things are not 1HKO'd by Yanmega's moves and it risks fainting if it attacks instead of Substituting down.

Feel free to comment on my bad grammar and poor wordings.

If you have any questions or would like to comment, I'm always happy to respond.

[randomspot555]

Personally I think Umbreon is effective in the OU tier. I play OU a lot, and i find umbreon to be very helpful.

massive def and spec def with good Hp

learns payback which doubles in damage after being hit + stab. can learn toxic, which is useful on almost any pokemon.

can learn substitute + moonlight which is great for stalling. when paired with infernape/blaziken and a psychic type its almost unbeatable because the only things umb has trouble killing are bug fighting and steel.

Just because you're able to beat someone on Wi-Fi doesn't prove much. It just shows that your opponent kinda sucks.

Umbreon is one of the easiest Pokemon to come in and set up on, if not just completely KO it by yourself. At worst, Scizor and come in, get Mean Looked, and U-Turn out.

I've all too often been able to set up massive amounts of Curse or Swords Dance on Umbreon.

Toxic Orbed Breloom is also a decent counter since it can't be put to sleep.

[Nabarl sent out Mew!!!]

Umbreon is a stall time. It is not meant to be strong.

But i did use a raw power Umbreon once. It took forever to kill things.

[Shogun]

Infernape, Lucario, Scizor, Heracross, Gliscor, Tyranitar, Skarmory, Forretress, Heatran, Metagross and a lot of other things make Umbreon less attractive. I honestly haven't seen it be used effectively more then a very minimal amount of times in OU. So why is it OU on Smogon? o . -

What do you guys think about opening up a new discussion about Latias being Uber?l

[warmnoodles]

Yanmega fits very well in BL and Umbreon usually can survive a lot of attacks from the likes of infernape and lucario due to its walling prowess so thats why he fis in OU and Mean Look is usefull

[randomspot555]

Umbreon can not survive much without several boosts in defense from Curse.

Dark typing is a pretty bad type if you want to wall.

[Gin]

To everyone, Umbreon is whatever it is at the time you are reading this because of USAGE. Usage determines most tiering. Then, misfits are dropped into BL and Ubers. Obviously, people will try to use the best stuff in a competitive metagame(That is the whole point), so usage can dictate how stuff is playing out in the metagame better than having people theorymon it out, unless you're trying to get something banned (Salamence, Latias, etc., where a council was best to sit down and talk about it). Yanmega seems fine in BL, he's by far too broken in UU, but he's not used enough for OU. Umbreon is fine wherever it is. Really, there is no real need for change for either of these guys.

[Sabeta]

Yanmega should stay BL. I've seen his sweeping capabilities as a lead in OU, and they are quite outstanding; however, it will never be good enough for OU, unless SR gets nerfed hard. The fact that it can only join the frey a maximum of Two times, is quite hard on him (Less if we factor in SS) not to mention the abundance of priority users (coughscizor) Will leave him sorely hurting. Very short repy, but it seems everyone else has made better points already.

As for Umbreon, it really depends on the metagame it's in. I mean, if we still had Salamence, Latias, and Garchomp, you can bet it'd be UU, but for now it seems to be OU. Perhaps, due to the flip-floppyness of it's nature, it should just take the middle ground and go BL.