Gen VI metagame speculation

[Tbird]

http://www.serebii.net/xy/pics.shtml

Check the full evolved fossil pictures out. Ice totally been screwed, hahaha. Wraith I think you're on to something.

However, here's something cool for you. It's as if Gamefreak could hear your incessant crying and said 'take this and shut up!!' New ice type move that is super effective against water, called freeze dry. If you ask me that's a fantastic move for Ice types, giving them a stab option to break down bulky waters. I dare say it'll be a special move, so weavile wont gain much from its inauguration, but any other specially inclined ice type with taunt would certainly enjoy it for general stall breaking purposes.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Tbird
God damn autocorrect.

[wraith89]

Those fossil evolutions... they are beautiful ㅠ__ㅠ ! Rex looks a bit like Groudon though but I cannot wait to see how both look competitively. Ice sauropod is gorgeous, but lawl Mach Punch / Bullet Punch

As for Freeze Dry, it seems like a great way to get Ice specials to get better coverage and to enhance their offensive capabilities... had it not been for them being too stupidly slow. Still, Water + Freeze Dry is unresisted by all but Shedinja (unless you have Mold Breaker). I hope its BP is high enough to be usable. Even something like 80 would be okay. I would like it even more if it was a version of Scald: and all Ice Pokemon and Water / Ice could learn it (but not other Water since Scald was denied to Water / Ice). Lapras would like to free up its moveslot so it doesn't have to run Thunder(bolt). I hope it becomes just that, and Ice may be golden (along with access to Hydro Pump to cover Fire and Rock types who are bothersome... and neutrally hit Steels).

What phone are you using?

[Find__Tab]

The new fossil Pokémon look great! I love them.

I hate to be negative nancy again but Freeze Dry? I don't really like it, although this might be because of how vague the description is.

Is Ice being retyped to be SE against Water?

Is it just this move?

Could this be the rumoured 'dual-type' move?

Assuming it's just this move, I still don't like it. Yeah, I get that it's to add more competitive-ness, but why not just give the current Pokémon a new move? Why re-type ice solely for this move and throw the entire concept of Pokémon's battle system out the window? Surely it wouldn't be that hard to add a new Electric move or something?

And ugh, dual-typed moves would be interesting, but so confusing. Confusing to the point that I really don't want it.

...Ice being retyped to be super-effective against water, however, is an idea I can really get behind. I hope that does happen - ice needs some buffs. So does Poison, actually. And Bug. ...And Fire. And Rock.

In fact, pretty much every type that isn't Ground, Steel, Fighting, Water or Dragon needs a buff... mainly Ice and Poison though!

[Tbird]

Nah I don't think it's anything as complicated as all that, plain and simple as it says on the tin, this move is super effective against water types (such as scald being a water move that can burn). Ice being super effective in general is something that I too could understand and get behind but if that were the case they'd have revealed that alongside the steel devamp (though I understand we can read too much into anything that hasn't been revealed.)

I am fully behind a poison buff, as a defensive typing its quite good, but with toxic being its main strong point, a move which every other type can learn regardless, it does leave a lot to be desired. But even then its not so much about the typing, its tht the Pokemon themselves have poor move pools and or stats. For instance Arbok with 100 speed and a bit more attack would be pretty damned awesome, because its move pool is fantastic. I think poison types have the portrayal of being rather shorty when in actual fact they're not half bad, Golbat is one of the bet walls around (in lower tiers) thanks to its typing and move pool (and eviolite).

[Find__Tab]

But why on earth would they make THIS move super against water?

You may as well slap 'electric' onto the typing. Having a type suddenly super effective against something it's not meant to be just makes the entire type-system pointless. Either change the whole type or none of it.

Scald makes sense. Sure, burning is a little weird, but it's still a status effect.

This, on the other hand? You may as well just call it a new type - I really hope this is a one off (or they change the entire type to be SE against water, of course) or this will really be a sour aspect of the new game for me.

[Tbird]

There's a survival technique used wherein a wet person will roll around in fine snow to dry themselves off as the water is absorbed from their body and into the snow. If a fish was dry it'd die. That much makes sense. There's no need to change the whole type. Any water Pokemon deprived of its water should indeed be weak to the attack that caused that effect.

See it as an additive or gimmick, personally I like it. It goes for a more realistic approach than anything else, which is lovely and more believable to me.

[Find__Tab]

I'd still prefer it as a psuedo-status affect. Like Attract or Confusion or something to use on water types.

Sure, it'd be largely useless, but at least it wouldn't destroy the very fundamentals of battling.

Ugh. I don't know why this annoys me so much. The other things at least made sense. Mega Evolution Pokémon are silly, but at least it has something to do with evolving. Which is, obviously part of Pokémon.

This though? No.

On a side note, GameFreak have confirmed in an interview that there will be /no/ generation 6 Megavolutions. At all. This means not every starter will get a mega evolution (as was rumoured). It's probably just going to be used as a novelty that feeds off nostalgia, not that there's anything wrong with that of course. So it'll largely be Gen 1/2/3 Pokémon that get the megavolutions, although probably some gen 4 and very few gen 5s.

[wraith89]

Good grief. It is only one move: for all we know, it may be a lot like Scald, have 80 BP and have us choose between that move or the more powerful and reliable Ice Beam with 95 BP (especially if said Pokemon has access to Thunderbolt like Lapras). But for all we know, Trollfreak will disappoint once more, give the move awkward distribution, and may give it something like 40 BP...

I sure would not want Ice to be SE vs Water though. But specific niche moves that help bulkier Ice Pokemon break through stallfest Waters is not a bad idea. Now we need one SE vs Fire... or have Acid hit Steel types... eew bad idea with latter because Acid is 40 BP... and i am afraid Freeze Dry will be 40 BP as well

They said no sixth gen get a Mega evo... Mmmhh. I am scared: it might mean there may be a power creep with the sixth gen pokes making even fifth gens like Excadrill look bad and old pokes have to go mega to make up for the power creep... or it is just GF appealing to nostalgia. There is also them saying they will not release any balance patches in the future because they think they have the balance right this time. I am kind of scared... but we will see how it turns out.

[Tbird]

Did they EVER make balance patches? Balance patches are stupid anyway, its just the developers pandering to a few whiny kids, then other kids whine because they're favourites get nerfed. It's a slippery cycle I certainly would hate to see this, they've got plenty of time to test and make it right. And if it doesn't work? Well this is why we have tiers.

This does highlight something important though, for there to be a need to even mention balance patches we can deduce that something big has changed, potential pointer to new damage mechanics?

[wraith89]

Balance patches are mostly MMORPG stuff. I didn't like it when games kept on OPing/Nerfing certain classes or something that some became nigh unplayable while others worked too well. And yes, it is a neverending cycle. They did explicitly say that they are not doing that because they didn't want some kids' favourite to get nerfed: they don't plan on nerfing Pokemon anytime soon (yeah right Kyurem).

Tiers are fanmade stuff though: they don't develop Pokemon out of tier usage but out of general concepts of course. But I don't know if I'm supposed to be happy or if I should be skeptical when they say "they got it right" this time. They say they look at strategies in tournaments to see what's common and saw that everybody used the "metal plant thing" (I'm sure that's supposed to be Ferrothorn). And yeah, nobody can get apologetic about dragons anymore: even Gamefreak said "Dragons are OP" and hence fairies. Remember last time in Gen I how Psychics were too powerful they came up with not one, but TWO types to counteract them (Dark and Steel)? Think of it this way: a new game is a "new balance patch" of some way, and some things were affected like last time, and now Steels lost their resistance to Dark and Ghost, things may turn out different. Or when they make mistakes... like Heracross not being able to learn Bulk Up... or rearrange Pokemon's learning moves (like Sandslash), a new game remedies those kinds of stuff (along with add tutors). I hope they're not extremely liberal with their tutors like they were in Platinum. HEATWAVEZAPDOSYOUBREAKEVERYTHING

But I don't think a lot of other things will be too different. Kyuber will still be Uber, for example, and I don't believe things like Kricketune will see any more usage than it ever used to. Though last gen... they gave out Quiver Dance to the early butterfly Pokemon (of course Volcarona/Lilligant got the most usage out of it), which did in fact help them, so who knows what kind of addition we may expect on some of the forgotten unused Pokemon such as Kricketune. But who knows if another Cloyster-like change happens where a previously decent Pokemon becomes OU thanks to new role or move it finds (Shell Smash). We will see, but I don't expect things to change drastically for the most part.

Also:

Freeze Dry!

If Ice isn't getting any defensive boosts, it must become offensive. Now we need a SE Ice move vs Fire.

[Tbird]

See now that would be awesome, and it'd make sense. Ice melts into water anyway, so why when ice hits fire it's not very effective. Something like sea foam or general ice sludge would make for a good concept vs fire. Then Ice could kind of be the antithesis to steel, you know instead of resisting everything it instead kills everything. I'm still waitin for an ice move that's super effective against fighting, like I said to you a couple years back, it only makes sense. If nothing else hail should slow fighting and normal types down or something. Alas I digress from the topic.

That's a pretty cool TC, but I don't think we could use it on a strong speculatory level because of how sketchy they are in relation to the actual games a lot of the time. I do agree that it'll probably be trollingly weak like glaciate and scald and the other moves with 100% crit chance.

[wraith89]

In most JRPGs and whatnot, Fire and Ice are both effective against each other. Though it's Pokemon, Fire resisting Ice is okay, or Moltres and the likes would be 4x weak to that, and I wouldn't like that. But a specialised Ice move that is effective on Fire would be great. And one that's effective on Steel, like Icecracker or something, idk. I always thought though Ice's resistances would be quite similar to Grass's (Elec/Grass/Ground), but nope. They went trolling with the one resistance deal. I'd like Ice to be a very good offensive typing, but the problem is the many defensive Ice Pokemon. They can always try to salvage it, like they did with Bug Pokemon and their trollingly low movepool in the past. Or really, just counting Ice and Water type as one type wouldn't have been too bad either, but alas, they are separate. It would have been fun if Ice resisted Electric and Grass moves (it does make sense if one thinks about it, but Grass types are already poor offensively it shouldn't) so they'd negate Water's weaknesses and Water negates their Fire and Steel weaknesses... leaving Water / Ice types to be only weak to Rock and Fighting. That'd be neat.

Mystery Dungeon Snow weather raises Ice Pokemon speed by 1 level. That'd be an interesting thing because these Ice Pokemon are trolled hard because they lack a Swift Swim / Chlorophyll / Sand Rush counterpart (they keep trying the whole defensive game by giving them Ice Body or Snow Cloak... seriously now!). Do keep in mind Hail and Snow were considered separate weather. Now just imagine Hail raising the speed of Ice Pokemon or passively raising something else, or perhaps power up Ice moves. Ice would be quite scary: I'd imagine Kyurem actually be a force to be reckoned with, or have Glaciate passively double power in Hail... maybe that's too overpowered. Being the antithesis of Steel would be quite cool, in my opinion. Problem is, the type chart explicitly states Rock types gain 1.5x SpDef in sand (to make up for most of their low SpDef... though Tyranitar / Bastiodon / Regirock / Cradily say hai...) while nothing is said about Ice except "immune to freeze". Hail has too little beneficial effect on specific Ice types (like Walrein) and hinders everybody else to be of any benefit, and probably only works for stupid FEAR strategies, which I find pointless for regular battles. Even though Sand hinders a great majority of Pokemon, at LEAST where it is helpful, it is quite helpful. I'm not sure, but I hope these new buffs aren't going only to the Rock / Ice fossil, because depending on one Pokemon that is 4x weak to Bullet Punch / Vacuum Wave / Mach Punch and weak to Grass / Rock / Water / Ground moves as well and most likely to be slow isn't quite helpful for the type in general.

This would be a "balanced" game then, if that were the case. Everything did have a drawback, such as Fighting moves having intense offensive coverage, but most of their moves had drawbacks ( Close Combat / Superpower / Hammer Arm ) and those that didn't were usually too weak to be used or worked on specific Pokemon or cases ( Low Kick / Low Sweep / Drain Punch <-- buffed in Gen V), or Dark moves which had specific strategies to be used ( Pursuit / Sucker Punch / Punishment / Foul Play ), or Steels with the defence to take nearly anything... Ice didn't really have much going for it, but imagine it hitting all the types it is not very effective against (I hope not against other Ice types though, because that would suck for Ice). Fire types is one side of the coin where it's offensively powerful and moves with high BST, but imagine Ice types finally getting some reliable role in the metagame rather than being a side type that had nothing going for it. Just expand their movepool beyond Powder Snow / Frost Breath / Icy Wind / Water Pulse and get some mean moves like Hydro Pump (hits Fire and Rock types super effectively) and give them an offensive role and have higher BP physical Ice moves as well for the likes of Mamoswine, Kyurem-B, Weavile, Beartic, DDLapras, etc and maybe they'll pose some sort of threat. I'm not sure how they'll salvage defensive Ice Pokemon (stares at Articuno and Regice), but something must be done. Now for stupid Fairies... and their overpowered resistances and effectiveness. Hmm...

Abra with Psyshock was the first Abra card too. There was also a Diglett with Mud-Slap before Gen II was released. The Magikarp card had Splash and Flail before Flail was released, and Flail did the same effect that it would in the later games. Fun tidbits and eventually we'll get moves like Thunder Jolt from Pikachu... hmm. Now that Freeze Dry is a move, can't wait to see other new things that come out. And maybe some old Ice Pokemon may get access to the move as well! Thank God I'm not typing this on my iPhone. -__-

[Mewtwo Ex]

It never came to my mind that certain type moves are for specific strategies... I guess Grass is more for stealing HP and Status Conditions - Absorb, Mega Drain, Giga Drain, Leech Seed / Grass whistle, Poison Powder, Sleep Powder. Fighting are almost 100% physical with the only exception being Aura Sphere. Poison moves are nerfed with 10/30 % chanse of poison. Heh Never thought of those... Rock - Flinch and critical...

Psychic - Attack/Defense/Stategies - U MAD? B-)

So to keep on topic - I am sure that Fairy will have something similar - Maybe stats raising weak moves. Something like Silver Wind... but for fairies...

W - you taped that on your phone?!

One good picture of Articuno - Supplied

Now one not so good.

And a small trivie - Did you know Articuno's beak was once blue?

[wraith89]

Fighting are almost 100% physical with the only exception being Aura Sphere.

There's also Vacuum Wave and Focus Miss. Inversely, Psychic only has Psycho Cut and Zen Headbutt as physical moves. Dark types... all are physical except Dark Pulse and Night Daze, which were introduced AFTER the phys/special split, and all Dark moves were special before (I don't even...). Yes, Grass, despite its 5 weaknesses, does at least have 4 very good resistances, and can still play defensively thanks to their plethora of support moves, Fire having high offensive moves with most of their moves being over 80 BP, and Water is, well, balanced (except Scald because it is broken)? I'm unsure how well Fairies turn out, but I saw Draining Kiss heals 100% of the HP stolen. Come on... all the other drain moves heal 50% of the HP stolen... why must Fairy be an exception? A friend of mine did say maybe Fairies are just good types with not so good stats. However, some retconned Pokemon like Gardevoir and Azumarill are already solid enough, especially Azumarill... which will gain even more prominence as anti-metagame Pokemon than it already was. So I'm quite unsure how balanced the new Fairies are really going to be. A new (most likely Fairy) move called "Child's Play" was seen used by Marill against a Haxorus, dealing over 50% damage to it. I wonder how that works, because if the calculations were to work, that move has to be at least 120 BP, or it may be some weird move which works better the less evolved a Pokemon is (basing it on its nomenclature).

I liked Articuno much better when it was all blue

Most of everything else I did type on the phone, but not that long one. I don't have autocorrect on, fortunately, but touchpad is ridiculously difficult.

[wraith89]

[video=youtube;O7K-IVFMidA]

A new Pokemon Smash was released with Morimoto and Misaki battling each other with Mega Pokemon this time! I heard from someplace that in order for Megas to work, both parties must have a Mega or else Mega form is disallowed, so there is no unfair advantage. That sounds pretty neat, and it isn't like Smash Bros Brawl where only one player can get the Smash Ball and wreak havoc.

From what we see in this video:

• Important: Mega Evolution does indeed get a priority before anything else ever happens. I'm unsure which priority bracket it is, as we haven't seen things like switching out and Pursuit and the likes, but it's certain it takes place before any other conventional moves occur. I wonder what happens when you Mega Evolve and use, say, Sucker Punch at the same time.
  
• Also, keep in mind this battle was probably rigged in the sense that these Pokemon had 0 IVs and 0 EVs except for the featured Megas.
  
• Blaziken is faster than Pangoro, at least in this video.
  
• Malamar's Topsy-Turvy was designed to work in Doubles. I have a feeling people will abuse Draco Meteor / Overheat / Leaf Storm / etc with Topsy Turvy in doubles. Malamar may just run Focus Sash or something so it wouldn't keep fainting in one turn, unless it was just doing that and that's that. I'm going to expect anti-leads involving Follow Me Flash Fire Pokemon or Fairy Pokemon to counter this kind of thing (if only Heatran had Follow Me). Rage Powder Pokemon would certainly work against Leaf Storm, as generally most of them, like Volcarona or Amoongus, are 4x resistant to it. Malamar seems to be slower than Blaziken but faster than Rhyperior, so perhaps it's lingering around the 60-70 speed tier. However, it is not indicative of anything, because IVs/EVs/nature/rigged battle, etc.
  
• With that said, doubles is an increasingly popular battle mode, and it is used in official tournaments. A lot of Pokemon are more viable in doubles than in singles, such as Beheeyem. Malamar may just be that Pokemon.
  
• Mega Blaziken OHKOd Rhyperior with + 2 Overheat. Good God, is it really THAT strong? And I thought Blaziken was going to get an attack boost... don't tell me it also gains a Special Attack boost as well... along with Speed Boost. Ugh. OP. I don't like how it's promoted over the other two Hoenn starters, but I guess popular Pokemon always makes the top choice anyways, so who am I to say anything? Slowbro may be an answer to Mega Blaziken.
  
• We actually see Gogoat in battle. Seemingly, it is a bulky Pokemon as it took an Ice Beam from Slowbro (albeit unSTABed) and took a little less than 50%. It was seen using Horn Leech, I believe, which took a huge chunk off Slowbro, one of the big defensive bulky waters out there. Interesting. Still unsure about its speed tier, however, but it is certainly faster than Slowbro. Trick Room indicates that it is slower than Ampharos, however, unless Mega Ampharos also has a speed boost. From what we see, Gogoat is going to have a really high attack power.
  
• Mega Ampharos makes a debut in battle. Yay.
  
• Mega Ampharos OHKOd Mega Blaziken with Thunder (accuracy boosted from Slowbro's Rain Dance). Ouch. They did say its Special Attack is boosted. Gogoat also falls to a Dragon Pulse after an Ice Beam from Slowbro.
  
• Mega Ampharos, as you may have forgotten, has Mold Breaker, resulting in a surprise KO on Shedinja. However, it was announced after it transformed... that it had Mold Breaker.

[Toffeuy]

On the topic of types (not PKM types in this case, just the general definition of the word) of moves, I've always lamented at the fact that all but one priority move is physical (Vacuum Wave). I really think they would introduce a few special priority moves this gen, perhaps a fairy type one along with it? I'm also expecting a greater variety in typing, a flying or ground seems to me like it would be a sweet addition. They would provide some measures against pokemon such as Blaziken which has speed boost and atm only has aqua jet for that purpose.

And about both parties requiring to have a mega, that seems very impractical. I can imagine the mess that would cause in both gameplay and online, does that mean half the time the mega stones are just a useless waste of an item space, or are there going to have to be extra classifications in battle types, etc.? Why not just stick to a simple use it or not scenario? It's like choosing to use an OU pokemon (well, other than a few such as ferrothorn) in Ubers. In most cases, they don't compete. And so, in most battles, they are never used. It's that simple. If it's not good enough, don't use it. If choosing not to mega evolve gives you a disadvantage against someone who does use it, then choose to mega evolve. It's at the player's fault that they would choose to give a handicap to their opponent. There's always going to be someone who likes the underdog label and so if it suits them, then just choose not to mega evolve, as long as they don't force everyone else to go along with them.

[wraith89]

Ugh Fairy priority. Dear God, please no. They're already the best offensive and defensive typing that was ever made. It looks quite unfair. Although having special versions of priority would be nice... as Vacuum Wave is quite rare. Imagine physical STAB Fairy priority for Azumarill to (ab)use alongside Aqua Jet.

While Blaziken destroys single battles in many cases, it is more than able to be handled in double battles, where it is more fast paced and Trick Room is more common than not. I think most of these people had doubles in mind... but unfortunately, singles is the most commonly used battle form out there.

You can either go Mega or no Mega at all. It isn't a requirement to hold a Mega Pokemon. It is a requirement for both to have one IF you plan on using Megas. I'm sure if one guy holds a Mega and the other doesn't, there'd at least be a warning or something stating that. Also, Gamefreak doesn't think of Pokemon in terms of OU or Ubers. That's a fan based terminology and has nothing to do with official Nintendo tournaments and whatnot.

[Toffeuy]

They're already the best offensive and defensive typing that was ever made.

Lol, the melodrama wraith! There's really no way for us to know the potential of a type based on type effectiveness. For example, let's talk about the offensive aspect of dragons and normals prior to Gen VI. Dragon is resisted only by steel, and Normal is resisted only by rock and steel. Based on these facts alone, you would expect dragon to only be slightly superior to normal (remember we're talking about offensive only atm). Yet, Dragon dominates Normal in sweepers and wallbreakers. It is not the type effectiveness which determines how useful a type is, it is the pokemon found within the classification. Dragons have ridiculously high attack/special attack along with speed and they have great movepools for great coverage (almost all phys dragons learn earthquake). In addition, the strongest of dragons get abilities to complement their stats/moves, Dragonite gets multiscale so it can DD to make up for its speed, Garchomp gets sand veil so it can set a sub up, Salamence gets either Intimidate or Moxie to set up DD or sweep on the spot. On the other hand, normal gets tons of HP and absolutely no defence to complement it. And while Dragons have these gamebreaking abilities, normal gets Regigigases and Slakings.

On another note, while Fighting is mainly physical, I am almost certain Fairy will be special-oriented. Well at least logically that would seem to be the case, when you think fairies don't you just think magic? If that's true, then nevermind Azumarill.

And about the OU/Uber thing, that was an analogy with respect to the rules you are bound to when competing online. Yes, it has nothing to do with official Nintendo stuff but that wasn't the point, it was just to provide an insight into the nature of knowingly giving your opponent a handicap.

EDIT: About the Blaziken and Rhyperior, i'm too lazy to do it myself, but if you use damage calculator i'm almost sure it'd be normal for even a regular Blaziken to pull that off. Blaziken's special attack is twice the special defence of Rhyperior, and it also gets a STAB on that 140 BP Overheat.

[LEGOanimal22]

There's really no way for us to know the potential of a type based on type effectiveness.

I agree with you. A pokemon's potential is measured just by its typing. It also matters on it stats and learnset. You also have to consider the power of a certain move. We also have these glorious things called Type-Enhancing items

[wraith89]

I like drama: my post count says 3000 now. I think I should stop here. The reason Dragons were doing so well was because of their generally high base stats and some had the proper movepool to complement it. Otherwise, Overheat and Leaf Storm would be in the same vein as Draco Meteor, or Thrash and Petal Dance would be as threatening as Outrage. Not to mention Dragon hits EVERYTHING neutral except their own (2x effectiveness) and Steel (1/2x effectiveness). Normals don't claim the same, as they have high neutral coverage, much like Water or Poison or Electric, but still not effective on Rocks, Steels, and of course has no effect on Ghosts. They can run a Fighting move or some coverage move to deal with them, but that's where base stats come in. Return isn't nearly as frightening as Draco Meteor or Outrage, however, even if their base powers are around 20-40 apart. Also, they're not resistant to anything except Ghost (immunity), unlike Dragons who resist Fire/Water/Electric/Grass moves. Yes, Normals didn't have much threatening Pokemon, not to mention a lot of them gets walled hard by either Ghosts or Steels, depending on who they are. Dragons could just run a complementary Ground/Fighting or Fire move and there was their coverage. Now we'll see awkward Flash Cannons / Iron Tail tacked on to some of them for no real reason other than to hit Fairies SE. Well, I guess Fire hits them neutrally, but the aim for Fire Blast and whatnot was to score the OHKO/2HKO on Steels, but I'm unsure if it can accomplish the same thing on Fairies. Though we don't need Dragons to be any stronger than they already are. I know they can just make Fairies have stats that are akin to Pidgeot or the likes, but even so, that typing is rather ridiculous, as it has the right weaknesses (two quite obscure ones) and resistances (resisting some of the most used attacks including one immunity). The thing about Fairies is that unlike Steels, who only tanked Dragons, they can actually take their hit and respond back with STAB Fairy move, which isn't something Steels were able to do. The only Steel that was able to answer Dragons was Empoleon (unless you want to run Ice Beam Bastiodon), who wasn't always reliable because of the gaping Ground/Fighting weakness and that low speed. And don't mention Ice types. Yes, we don't know how anything is turning out just yet, but the typing in itself is already quite broken. It will also mean a sharp rise in Steel types, but thankfully they nerfed them slightly. They said they "had it right this time". I don't know if that's true or not, but we will see. But it's already quite the best offensive/defensive type it seems (Steel still trumps them defensively, but I meant as a mix). I'm just very skeptical of Fairies atm. Their inclusion was the right idea, but idk if it was executed correctly.

We don't know about the Physical/Special thing yet. I used to think Dark was physical and Ghost was special... but it was the other way around. Water and Ice were deemed special but they got Ice Shard and Aqua Jet. The move Child's Play seems quite physical if you ask me... going up straight front to the foe and hitting them. Or better yet, there will be an absence of Fairy priority. They already super buffed these moves, like Draining Kiss healing 100% of the stolen HP as opposed to 50% like the rest of them (unless they buff the others like Giga Drain / Drain Punch to do the same). I'm wondering what the theme for Fairy will be. We have deceptive Darks, offensive Fires, powerful yet penalty inducing Fighting, stalling Grass, etc...

There's most likely going to be separate modes for Mega and Non-Megas, so there wouldn't be any need to worry about your "Mega Stone handicap", unless they mess that one up too.

Regular Blaziken does indeed have a chance to OHKO with + 2, but on 0/0/0 Rhyperior with 0 IVs. Even with max IVs, it does colossal damage, but it generally doesn't OHKO. Also base stats don't work that way: 55 and 110 isn't * 2 multiplication.

I wonder if we're going to see a surge of Trick + Ring Target Lati@s or something now. Draco Meteor them Fairies!

[Toffeuy]

No don't stop T_T. Yes, that's exactly what I was saying: it's their generally better stat distribution and movepools, and that has nothing to do with the type itself, it's the pokemon. You have a point in that fairies can also counter attack with a super effective hit, but yes we'll have to see how it plays out. Perhaps this calls for an increased impact in being able to predict your opponent, like how you go for a Hydro Pump on Choiced Rotom-W because you predict a ground type to come in and take the volt switch (and then you fail miserably as they send in Jellicent). The people at Gamefreak aren't total idiots, i'm sure they would introduce at least a few things to balance it out a bit. Maybe new steel or poison moves, now to think of it, a poison priority would be a really nice idea too. It's also interesting to note that most of the time it depends on the player's decisions and their response to the implementations rather than the ideas put out themselves. The problem is that the community's response will be quite random, certain ideas will directly affect the chance, but a large part is still up to chance. If people are to firmly believe that dragons can still have the impact they did in Gen V, then fairies in that case may be OP. If no-one is to believe dragons are of any use anymore, fairies lose a significant role in the game. It's really unpredictable, one guy might make an extremely successful team using either dragons or no dragons, and as people start gaining ideas from looking at this team, they are influenced into doing the same and hence that starts a trend. In this case, it all comes down to whether the first influential team within the community will have dragons or not, and any subsequent famous teams may bring back or further diminish the role of fairies. You just seem a bit more than just skeptical on fairies, to the point that you're being cynical.

Unlike dark or ghost which don't have any obvious connotations, fairies are always associated with some magic aren't they? Come on, they're fairies! Last thing i'd expect is for Tinkerbell to use its fingernails for a fairy claw on Garchomp. The word "fairy" just seems like a very light-hearted thing. I would certainly be able to imagine them being able to play a support role (fairy entry hazards rofl) or even specially defensive, but not really mercilessly destroying a dragon. If that is the case then maybe that settles the debate on being that offensive monster that is to cause trouble to every other type. I don't know but when I think fairy I picture something using light screen or reflect, not so much large scale magic which obliterates everything.

At this point, I still wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a separation but whatever, i'm not extremely against either anyway, just would prefer that there wasn't.

Oh, and I probably wasn't very clear in what I said, but I was meaning base stats.

And I like drama too, i'm watching a few episodes after posting this.

[wraith89]

Ew 3K + 1. Next milestone is probably 3210 or 3333 or something. Eh.

I know that gameplay is increasingly becoming switch heavy and offensively oriented. I was quite cynical of the former Gen as well, because in the beginning stage I remember everything was hitting way too hard for their own good. You get new guys with insane attack power like somewhere in the 140s and basically dethroning old milestones with ugly new Pokemon that made no sense except to outclass previous Pokemon. With things like Haxorus, with sky high attack of 147, access to boosting moves, Taunt to stop Skarmory, and Mold Breaker to prevent Levitating Pokemon from walling Earthquake, or Conkeldurr with high attack power, Bulk Up, Drain Punch, and even the rare Mach Punch with large bulk all in one package, Reuniclus with super high bulk enough to survive a Heracross's Megahorn and Magic Guard that used to be exclusive on Clefable for example, Excadrill with its perfect typing, perfect learning movepool, perfect ability, and perfect speed to even troll on Hitmonlee, and perfectly outclassing Sandslash... and these were just "minor Pokemon" and not something like a legendary. I have every right to be cynical: the metagame right now isn't exactly balanced per se, but we did adapt to it after a while. I know it's too early to tell, but by typing alone Fairy is already amazingly powerful. Ice types, for example, by typing alone is horrendous, but so are their Pokemon because they keep giving them a movepool as wide as Wobbuffet's and lame stat distributions. I know how imbalanced Dragons were, but it made sense because they're meant to be the ultimate typing: all those dragons generally reach their final form on high level. Their gimmick even shows because they also resist the typings of the starters, including Electric. Fairies are a nice idea in general, but it almost looks like a typing made to just "tack on" to the typing chart to make correlations with some dominant types and become the new dominant type itself. It sort of forces people to run Steel and Poison attacks now, which were not common. I don't mind that they are Fairy's weaknesses, but I do mind that they are their ONLY weaknesses. So I am afraid: things already hit too hard in this generation, I wonder what's next. Lugia being brought down to UU? I'm sure Dragons will still be used, though, due to their high stats, versatility, and sheer power. That's why Fairies have a role: but they also kill Fighters and Dark types too... which already guarantees them a spot. I think Azumarill will soar to high usage now: a neutrality to Bullet Punch hardly compromises for its new effectiveness against Dragons and common Fighters and even Dark types (should it get the right movepool). Not that I mind, Azumarill is cool and I use it a lot, and it already has a hard counter in Jellicent (unless Fairy attack magically becomes super powerful that it 2HKOs the jellyfish). Alas, poor Hydreigon.

I think Bite/Faint Attack/Crunch/Pursuit/etc were quite obviously physical. The only Dark special attack, Dark Pulse, was introduced in Gen IV. Then came Snarl and Night Daze in Gen V. And yet they were counted as Special? I don't even want to know what they were thinking then. Ghost moves... I think they had the intention of Shadow Ball being special, as it lowered SpDef every time, and yet ran off physical attack on the only Ghost Gengar and Misdreavus at that time... 65/60 Atk. Yeah right. As for Fairies, I don't only think about your pink Tinkerbell characters, nymphs, dryads, fair folks, etc, but faes and dwarves and pixies and elves of the mischievous kinds, and even mythological satyrs and of malevolent kinds. The term 妖精 would encompass all of that (though Korean and Japanese invariably decides to make it "Peh-uh-ri" instead of their native words for Fairy), so I can see it going either way. Unless they really mean for... pink... little cutesy wutsy things to slay almighty Dragons, which I'm sure Trollfreak would GLADLY oblige to. But a lot of their attacks shown so far, such as Fairy Wind or Moonblast, appear to be specially oriented. I would think so too, actually, but I'd like to leave an open mind for that.

If you think you do have it right this time Gamefreak, don't disappoint me. But so far, it seems like they put some interesting quirks on some old types (Grass types being immune to Powders and such, Electrics gaining paralysis immunity (further making Zapdos/Thundurus nigh unstoppable, I'm going to have to carry massive Icy Winds for this), Ghosts being able to escape traps), and yet they STILL forget to buff the ONE TYPING that ACTUALLY needed it the most (*cough*Ice*cough*). However I do understand their intention on Fairy types. I do like the idea, in fact, I'm actually amazed it took them this long to make it. But it already appears rather... awkward.

Korea is drama central. We're full of it here.

[Toffeuy]

Ice isn't even that bad, normal is the worst type.

Number of ice pokemon in OU: 3

Normal in OU: 1

Ice in Ubers: 2

Normal in Ubers: 1

And ice is even super effective against 4 of the most commonly used types out there.

Also, if watching dramas taught me anything, it's that 妖精 are just a bunch of human-animal hybrids who have not trained their abilities and morality enough to become a god...

[wraith89]

Please, you're thinking by tiers again. That is not how we do things here. And if Normals weren't so, they wouldn't be, well, Normal. I wouldn't say Normals are bad, as many have more uses than Ice types will ever have, especially because generally their movepools are large despite their lack of resistances. There's still Blissey, Togekiss, Clefable, Snorlax, Lickilicky, both Porygons, Braviary, Swellow, Tauros, Miltank, Staraptor, and many others that are quite usable (I know a lot of them are considered NU but even so they all have a valuable niche). As a typing, Ice is terrible. It only resists itself, and many times when its paired with another type, it loses its sole resistance that Ice brings. Many otherwise good stat Ice types like Vanilluxe or Lapras are hindered by a lot of reasons, such as sparse movepool, bad defensive typing to go with their otherwise defensive leaning stats, is too specialised with its function (Cryogonal), or low base attack STAB (Weavile). IF they were ALL offensive killing types, it would be a different story. But for whatever reason, they keep lacking because Gamefreak apparently thinks Ice would be too broken if they decided for whatever reason they'd give them a STAB over 75 BP or speed over 79.

Ice as an offensive type is great, but nobody uses Ice STAB because many Water types who are defensively superior gains access to Ice Beam anyways. Ice is, and still is, possibly the worst type. Mamoswine is saved because of STAB EQ to go along with Icicle Crash and immune to both damaging weathers and actually neutral to Fire and SR. And one of the OUs you mention is Kyurem-B, who should have been Uber, but isn't simply because it's Ice and doesn't have a reliable STAB Ice to run off its physical attack.

妖精 is actually a generic term for fairy (요정 in Korean), not just the specific drama you watched (Idk which one you are referring to).

[Toffeuy]

I thought you might have something to say about that, I know you don't like the idea but tiers are possibly the best way to tell how useful a pokemon is. Useful ones get used more, tiers might be a bit of an arbitrary thing (well aren't all classifications?) but the fact that people would use certain pokemon is a clear indication of their strength. There's probably no better way to assess the usefulness of a type than looking at the abundance of its use. Rather than looking at usefulness through potential, using distribution statistics provide far better supporting evidence. I know very well some pokemon in lower tiers can be an absolute game changer (I don't even remember how many of my OU teams used Pory2) but that's based on personal experience; that is, evidence from 1 person alone. And any evidence from a single person alone is never reliable, the evidence is accurate and it's valid, but in no way reliable. For the reliability factor to be accounted for, it is necessary to include the community as a whole, and that means looking at usage statistics and hence tier distribution. "Blissey, Togekiss, Clefable, both Porygons, Tauros, Miltank", to me, these pokemon aren't even in the same league as Cloyster, Mamoswine, Abomasnow, both non-Uber Kyurems and Weavile in terms of usefulness.

I've played the monotype tier before, and Ice is probably one of the most threatening teams as long as your opponent isn't using fire/fighting, but normal can barely compete regardless of which type team you are versing. Normal pokemon have even worse movepools than ice. In many cases, there might be a wider movepool but it almost always lacks combinations to make effective coverage. And because normal isn't super effective against anything, there is no such thing as a STAB super effective move, and that greatly hinders its usefulness yet again.

I think we're straying a little off-topic here, so as a last note let me just say: I am speculating that in Gen VI, Ice will not be the worst type.