Development of a PP Tier

[Varna]

A lot, from what I'm seeing. I'm with randomspot on this one; seems like a lot of work sped through really fast for only having 3 people doing it...

Oh, and while we're on the topic of new clauses; how about a No Rocks clause? :B If you're looking for things that have had a ridiculously large impact on how battles are fought, there it is.

[Greencat]

Illithian, many of the Pokemon you mentioned in your list couldn't work in Ubers. Why use Porygon-Z when Rayquaza or Lyogre does the job much much better? The class above HIgh Class, Overpowerd, is for Pokemon that can operate well in both OU and Ubers.

[Illithian]

Illithian, many of the Pokemon you mentioned in your list couldn't work in Ubers. Why use Porygon-Z when Rayquaza or Lyogre does the job much much better? The class above HIgh Class, Overpowerd, is for Pokemon that can operate well in both OU and Ubers.

You misinterpreted the point. I wasn't talking about moving them to ubers. We were discussing the potential for a tier between OU and Ubers. Thats when we came up with the Easy Mode clause, which I do think has potential.

Moving on. Bob, that project is very contradictory to this thread. We were trying to streamline the tiers by removing BL completely, and you want to move that many pokemon into it? I'm sorry, but that cannot work. Of that entire list of pokemon, there are some of them that are too powerful for the UU environment. The rest look like you're trying to remove every powerhouse there is, which is remarkably similar to the middle tier idea between uber and OU. Instead of what you're doing, which looks like were going back in time to D/P smogon, we should concentrate on moving pokemon between UU and NU until there is a solid metagame similar to Standard.

Note that having a SMALL banlist for UU isn't really a problem.

By the way, this Tier Discussion forum is here for a reason. You should really create a new thread discussing your idea and asking for suggestions & support. Theres a lot of work to be done in your project and it has a ton of potential, but this thread is cluttered with different ideas. I'm going to make a thread about the Easy Mode clause, and that discussion can go on over there.

This PP Tier idea needs to split up in a big way so we can get started with testing and actually get somewhere.

[Gin]

That list wasn't even gonna be posted. Its not really part of this project, it was before this.

[randomspot555]

That list wasn't even gonna be posted. Its not really part of this project, it was before this.

The list doesn't make sense at all.

If it isn't a part of this project (and apparently, it is, since you posted it in this thread, and said you and wraith were working on it), then why'd you mention it? Does it have anything to do with PP at all? Or was this just going to be done in secret?

I might be overreacting slightly, but it seems just as horrible as that tier list that was posted when the forums first opened. It's like you made drastic changes for the sake of making drastic changes instead of having any support behind them.

EDIT: As for the actual tiers, I still think this is the best method. You all can argue over names later

Uber

Standard

whatever our equivalent of UU is

whatever our equivalent of NU is.

When something is being tested, it's just assigned a "limbo" tag or something similar. I really don't see why there needs to be a 5th or 6th tier, which basically end up being BL limbo tiers and just end up confusing the hell out of people.

[Greencat]

You misinterpreted the point. I wasn't talking about moving them to ubers. We were discussing the potential for a tier between OU and Ubers. Thats when we came up with the Easy Mode clause, which I do think has potential.

You misunderstood again. I was also discussing the potential for a tier between OU and Ubers, except that it should be Pokémon that can operate well in both OU and Ubers, like Woubuffet and Garchomp.

[SCV]

You misunderstood again. I was also discussing the potential for a tier between OU and Ubers, except that it should be Pokémon that can operate well in both OU and Ubers, like Woubuffet and Garchomp.

The point of Wobbuffet and Garchomp being put in Ubers is that they don't work well in OU.

EDIT: Also, I agree with randomspot555.

We should not have endless amounts of in between labels. Just one label that will mean that we haven't decided where it should go. The proccess should always be the same.

Can it work in the lowest? Why?

If not, Can it work in the next up? Why?

If not, Can it work in the next up? Why?

If not, then it will go in the highest.

The details of how we'll decide "if not" based on the "why" that are provided is something we should also figure out. I think that everyone should be allowed to give their opinion. Logic trumps all. So if someone can give a well formed and backed up logical explanation of why someone works or doesn't work somewhere then it doesn't matter if they are not the person who battles the most on shoddy.

[randomspot555]

The point of Wobbuffet and Garchomp being put in Ubers is that they don't work well in OU.

Exactly. People should keep in mind that the uber tier is not meant to be balanced. It's just a ban list for the standard tier. A Pokemon that doesn't perform well in ubers means jack if it should be there. It should be there if it centralizes the standard tier.

[Gin]

Why not just post them? I don't see the point in secrecy.

I like the clause idea. It follows with the idea of keeping it simple.

I only posted it because of that.

It was before the whole tier idea revitalized, and it was recommended that I didn't post it as a thread here until we finished at least the uu.

[SilentFox]

Bob at least wait for me to write out the reasonings behind the propositions first X_X; regardless us three -looks at bob- will make a writeup of our findings AFTER we are done -looks at bob again-

[Greencat]

The point of Wobbuffet and Garchomp being put in Ubers is that they don't work well in OU.

Exactly. People should keep in mind that the uber tier is not meant to be balanced. It's just a ban list for the standard tier. A Pokemon that doesn't perform well in ubers means jack if it should be there. It should be there if it centralizes the standard tier.

Nevermind. I was misunderstood three times now. >_>

[Illithian]

Greencat, I'll try to break down my understanding of your posts so you can be more clear.

Illithian, many of the Pokemon you mentioned in your list couldn't work in Ubers.

Agreed.

Why use Porygon-Z when Rayquaza or Lyogre does the job much much better? The class above HIgh Class, Overpowerd, is for Pokemon that can operate well in both OU and Ubers.

I think this is what threw me off. Overpowered is probably our new name for Ubers. The hypothetical tier between OU and Ubers (which hadn't been named) was for pokemon that were very centralizing in the OU metagame. It had nothing to do with Ubers. It was essentially a banlist for OU. Most of the pokemon I mentioned were quite centralizing in the OU metagame, so banning atleast some of them would make sense for a new player. However, I opposed the idea because experienced players wouldn't like it and it would create disorder.

You misunderstood again. I was also discussing the potential for a tier between OU and Ubers, except that it should be Pokémon that can operate well in both OU and Ubers, like Woubuffet and Garchomp.

Wobbuffet and Garchomp were moved to Ubers not because it was predicted they would function well. In fact, if you read up on the Garchomp suspect, there was a massive opposition that Garchomp would become useless in Ubers. Well, he hasn't. The point of moving Wobbuffet and Garchomp was because they broke the Standard metagame and overcentralised it. Smogon could potentially move any pokemon up to Ubers, so long as it breaks the OU metagame, regardless how it would function in its new tier.

Ubers wasn't created to be a metagame. Its a banlist.

[SCV]

OK, it seems we are coming to a conclusion as to how many tiers we want.

Now we should discuss a testing method.

Tests should probably start once we have analyzed once we know what the new available movesets are after HG/SS is released. So we can use the remaining days to decide on a method, as well as names (there is already another thread the names).

The guys who have been testing, if you can post your method so we can see if that's what we want to use or modify. The testing you guys have done might not be applicable now (maybe it will be) but at least we can learn from the method.

[Gin]

This is dead for now, anyway, tiering will be shaken up in September. Closing