Development of a PP Tier

[Shogun]

I strongly agree to what SCV has said.

We should base the tiers on how it effects the metagame. By usage Kingdra and Heracross would be labled UU/Limdo, however clearly they are too powerful for the lower tiers.

[Varna]

However, basing it on stats/movepool/etc... is dangerously close to theorymon. If we're basing it on that, what's the point of even testing it?

If we are eliminating usage as a factor, then all we are left with is the game data and test battles. Testing it in that situation is the most important step. Testing sets it apart from simply being theorymon. We draw up a list of what we "think" will be accurate, test the living hell out of it, and make changes according to what was discovered. In that way, we won't have a tier list that fluctuates based on usage, which is essentially what everyone here wants to get away from.

I like the idea of a "condensed" list. High/Middle/Low. Maybe not those specific names (though they are simplistic enough), but the overzealous amount of tiers has always been one thing that I've hated about Smogon's.

As far as a test method goes, it's really just about dumping time into it. Make a ton of teams, battle with them. Notice a trend that seems too powerful? Point it out and then we can specifically look into it. Usage may not be a factor for the actual list, but it does help bring to light issues that need to be fixed.

[Gin]

As far as a test method goes, it's really just about dumping time into it. Make a ton of teams, battle with them. Notice a trend that seems too powerful? Point it out and then we can specifically look into it. Usage may not be a factor for the actual list, but it does help bring to light issues that need to be fixed.

As you said, that method is VERY work intensive. Unless more battlers join, and more of them decide to contribute their results, it will take years with that method. Either we double/triple shoddy battlers, or we adopt a new method. Also, us testers (There are 3 of us) have lives, too. We can only work so often, and its very tiring for us to battle and analyze them every night.

[Varna]

As you said, that method is VERY work intensive. Unless more battlers join, and more of them decide to contribute their results, it will take years with that method. Either we double/triple shoddy battlers, or we adopt a new method. Also, us testers (There are 3 of us) have lives, too. We can only work so often, and its very tiring for us to battle and analyze them every night.

Yes, it will take the most time among any method, but it is the most accurate way of doing things imo. Remember that this won't stop us from HAVING a tier list in the mean time, it only means that our changes will happen slower as we find problems that we originally overlooked.

Also, what do you mean "us 3"? I'm sure there are more people here willing to test than that.

[Gin]

By us 3, I meant the three of us who currently or have done work on tiering, Wraith89, SilentFox, and me. And that's what I was saying, we need more battler/testers for any method to feasibly work, especially more thorough ones such as this. I think, before any test based method we decide to implement, we first create a "Master list" of Pokemon that are obviously set in a certain tier, such as Kyogre in the "High" one, Tyranitar in the "Middle" one, and Linoone in the "Low" one. This would save time, work, and energy.

We could follow a model in which the results of battles are reported to a small group of experienced battlers (We could do the mentors, if we go through with that idea), who organize the data. That "Panel" of people look at the data collected and edit the "Master list" with their conclusions about tested Pokemon.

[randomspot555]

No offense meant, but what qualifies you three as testers? I thought the whole point of having a thread like this is to set up a method so the whole community can test.

I mean cmon, it's not that hard to have a battle on Shoddy, take some notes from it, and point out "Well, this seems broke because of [reason], but this seems fine due to [reason]."

[Gin]

We aren't qualified or official, we were just the people who SCV asked to set up the banlist for some of the ladders, and noone else was working on our tiers at the time. Therefore, we were the testers...

[randomspot555]

Okay, it just sounded like (or maybe I misread) that this whole shindig was a done deal. Good to know I'm wrong.

[Illithian]

Bob, if you intend to do it that way, no changes will ever be made. Smogon does it in that exact same way, except they have thousands of battlers who'll constantly report up on changes to the metagame. If our small community tries to do it their way, we'll just end up falling behind. Here, opinion can heavily influence what a person thinks of a pokemon. A person could make an extremely convincing argument for having Scizor in ubers, but it will never happen. Its pointless to drag out a process like that.

What really needs to happen is a streamlining of the tiers. Bob, whatever preconcieved ideas you have about the tiering system are out, because SCV wants to throw it all out the window. The streamlining should look something moderately like this:

- Ubers

- High Class

- Low Class

- Underpowered

This may look a lot like Smogon's current tiers, but several things would happen. Firstly, smogon's UU and NU tiers are hugely more affected by usage then OU is. As such, a streamlining of UU and NU could easily take place. Low Class would be a large set of pretty much every pokemon currently in UU and NU that is powerful enough to fit into the already created UU metagame, which would become the Low Class. High Class wouldn't really be streamlined much, but the banlist for it (BL) would probably be spread between High and Low Class. The Uber tier won't really be designed around the idea of a metagame, because the ubers metagame is so volatile and prone to changes that it can easily adapt. The Uber tier will be more thought of as a banlist for High Class, pokemon that affect the metagame too strongly.

Scizor and Bullet Punch has a massive impact on the metagame because of circumstances. It so happens that an extremely powerful revenge killer has been missing from the metagame for some time. Scizor gets STAB and Technician, an extremely potent combination, coming off 130 base attack, makes for an extremely strong revenge killer. He has his own problems, but they are outweighed by the fact that little else can claim what he can. However, Scizor's problems, including his 4x weakness to fire, incredibly low speed, and inability to actually do all that much outside of U-turn and Bullet Punch isn't nearly enough to land him a spot in ubers.

Some similar thought process to that would be used in determining ubers. The people who vote would be absolutely anyone who has played on shoddy. We can't and won't let random people vote on our tiers, but we should let all the competitive battlers have some say.

[Varna]

A streamlining of the tiers was part of the plan Bob was talking about, Illithian. I don't see why we can't test things on our own after that is accomplished, though. What is this stuff about "falling behind"? I wasn't aware we were on some sort of strict schedule. This is a hobby, not a job.

- Overpowered

- High Class

- Low Class

- Underpowered

Just a suggestion.

[Gin]

I think our goal should be towards 3 tiers, High (Overpowered) Middle (Standard) Low (Well... smogon's uu/nu)

[Illithian]

I think our goal should be towards 3 tiers, High (Overpowered) Middle (Standard) Low (Well... smogon's uu/nu)

I like Varna's set more.

A streamlining of the tiers was part of the plan Bob was talking about, Illithian. I don't see why we can't test things on our own after that is accomplished, though. What is this stuff about "falling behind"? I wasn't aware we were on some sort of strict schedule. This is a hobby, not a job.

- Overpowered

- High Class

- Low Class

- Underpowered

Just a suggestion.

I definitely like Overpowered as opposed to ubers, and I definitely think that 4 tier set would work. I must apologize, I misinterpreted what bob and you were talking about; I was under the impression that we were just going to slowly change in smogon fashion as opposed to a big change first, then testing. In that case, I agree.

However, I still say that the entire competitive community here should have some say. We are not a very large community so that shouldn't be too much of a problem, and if the vote is too controversial, of course we could make it more private among more experienced battlers.

[Varna]

I definitely like Overpowered as opposed to ubers, and I definitely think that 4 tier set would work. I must apologize, I misinterpreted what bob and you were talking about; I was under the impression that we were just going to slowly change in smogon fashion as opposed to a big change first, then testing. In that case, I agree.

However, I still say that the entire competitive community here should have some say. We are not a very large community so that shouldn't be too much of a problem, and if the vote is too controversial, of course we could make it more private among more experienced battlers.

We're in complete agreement, then. Ditto your last paragraph.

[Neo]

@Varna, When you say Overpowered, Do you tend to include only Ubers? Or some OU's like Tyranitar, Scizor Ect.?

Don't get me wrong, Overpowered sounds great but you will have to make the messege clear will it only be Ubers or A Mix of Ubers and OU's.

@Illithian: A Private testing is a good idea but for a timed period. After a few weeks of Private testing you could release it to the Community.

[Varna]

@Varna, When you say Overpowered, Do you tend to include only Ubers? Or some OU's like Tyranitar, Scizor Ect.?

Don't get me wrong, Overpowered sounds great but you will have to make the messege clear will it only be Ubers or A Mix of Ubers and OU's.

The intention is to make the tier itself essentially a ban list for High Class, so yes, strictly "ubers". What it contains would be up for debate. I wish I could come up with a more graceful naming convention for the 4 tiers, but it's 5:30 AM where I am and I lack the mental capacities to do so at the moment.

[Gin]

However, I still say that the entire competitive community here should have some say. We are not a very large community so that shouldn't be too much of a problem, and if the vote is too controversial, of course we could make it more private among more experienced battlers.

I was under the impression that all you had to do to be a tester was use the forum/shoddy server. If not, what would we set up as requirements?

[Greencat]

It would be nice to see it like this:

Ubers = Ubers

Overpowered = New Rank

High Class = OU

Standard = BL

Low Class = UU/NU

I feel that if a Pokémon can operate decently in Uber such as Metagross, Garchomp, and perhaps Kingdra then it may be better to place those special few in Overpowered. I haven't seen anyone consider this before--Ran between OU and Ubers, but this may work. And then there are some Pokémon that operate in Smogon's BL (Old Tier system) such as Espeon, but it does decent in OU. So there should be a group for those as well IMO.

Examples:

Ubers = Deoxys

Overpowered = Metagross

High Class = Swampert

Standard = Espeon

Low Class = Dustox

Thoughts?

[Varna]

The two goals I have in mind, for the tier system structure at least, are thus:

1. KISS. Keep it simple, stupid. It's annoying and convoluted to have a ton of tiers for marginal differences in power. If we're going that route, why not just rank all the Pokémon by numbers? Three to five seems to be fine, though the fewer the better imo.

2. Get away from Smogon's naming conventions. That's really all a matter of preference, but I think it'd distinguish us from them a lot more if we didn't use the same names for anything.

Example:

Overpowered = Deoxys

High Class = Metagross

Standard = Swampert

Low Class = Espeon

Underpowered = Dustox

I definitely enjoy the idea of a tier between the concepts of "ubers" and "ou". It would make cases such as Wobuffet and (especially) Garchomp much less of a headache to deal with.

[Illithian]

I'm completely against having a tier between Overpowered and High Class. You might as well just send all the 'standard' pokemon into BL, because almost every pokemon has a good argument as to why its incredibly powerful. These are pokemon that all could easily be argued for something above HC (high class):

Blissey, Bronzong, Electivire, Gyarados, Heatran, Infernape, Jolteon, Flygon, Metagross, Mamoswine, Magnezone, Salamence, Scizor, Porygon-Z, Rotom-A, Togekiss, Suicune, Lucario, and Zapdos.

Yes, I realize thats still not all of HC, but think about this. If you get rid of Metagross, you have to get rid of all the other pokemon who have moves on par with Metagross. Lucario, Scizor, Salamence, Togekiss, Mamoswine, and Magnezone would be a minimum. The beneficial effects of that is it allows people to use less used pokemon that are outclassed by the powerhouses, but it also means that stall will be the best team strategy in the game.

However, implementing a clause called "Easy Mode" that bans all the powerhouses is a much more convenient idea. Experienced competitive battlers would rather not have to deal with ANOTHER tier. Instead, newer players could enjoy a much more open metagame where you could use your favorite pokemon and actually succeed. It would be a metagame that would be remarkably reminiscent of D/P.

[randomspot555]

An optional clause banning the many "good in ubers environment but aren't ubers themselves (ie Heatran, Tyranitar, Scizor, Meta, etc...)" has a nice sound to it, as long as it's optional. It'll be interesting to see how that works.

I think the best thing to do, at this point, is pick a handful of Pokemon that seem to perpetually fluctuate in tiers and usage and test them our selves to see where they should fall. Donphan, Milotic, Staraptor would be great candidates for this. MAYBE Ambipom and Crobat.

I also really think no more than 4 names for tiers is needed:

Whatever our equivalent of uber is.

Whatever the standard tier will be called.

Whatever the equivalent of uu will be called

Whatever the equivalent of neverused will be called

And when testing crap, we just put it in the appropriate [limbo] category between two tiers and thus don't need any dumb BL list.

[Gin]

I like the "Easy Mode" Clause idea, its MUCH better then having a tier in between "Uber" and "High".

@Random

We were already testing those, that project is a work in progress. I can PM you the pokemon under study, if you want.

[Varna]

Why not just post them? I don't see the point in secrecy.

I like the clause idea. It follows with the idea of keeping it simple.

[Gin]

I would post them, but the list is kind of long, and I didn't think anyone would read the list if they did not care for it. Here it is, anyway.

Confirmed:

Abomasnow

Arcanine

Articuno

Azumarill

Clefable

Crobat

Entei

Froslass

Gardevoir

Houndoom

Ludicolo

Magmortar

Mesprit

Milotic

Miltank

Mismagius

Moltres

Ninetales

Porygon 2

Raikou

Roserade

Shaymin

Spiritomb

Staraptor

Tangrowth

Uxie

Yanmega

Needs Testing:

Absol

Ambipom

Blaziken

Charizard

Donphan

Dugtrio

Espeon

Feraligatr

Floatzel

Gallade

Hariyama

Honchkrow

Jumpluff

Jynx

Kabutops

Lapras

Leafeon

Marowak

Regice

Regigigas

Regirock

Registeel

Relicanth

Slaking

Slowbro

Slowking

Steelix

Swellow

Tauros

Torterra

Ursaring

Walrein

These are all Pokemon that should be moved from UU/NU permenantly out of UU up to BL. Note that BL is sort of a Limbo tier, as Pokemon constantly move to and from there.

[randomspot555]

Articuno in OU? No way.

With Heatran and Scizor on every other team (often the same), Metagross and Swampert as leads, and x4 weak to rock (meaning 50% gone from SR damage).

Add onto that that it's only stellar stat is it's special defense, and that doesn't mean too much when you have 50% gone just by switching in.

Remembe rthe point of testing lower tiered for higher tiered placage is if they are just completely overcentralizing the lower tier. It should not be "can they do well in the upper tier?". Porygon-2 is a great Gyarados and Salamence counter, but it doesn't seem to break the lower tiers in half like Staraptor did over at Smogon.

All the others in "confirmed" (and for 3 people, you seem to have sped through the work) could at least have a case made for them, but I have no idea how one could make the case that Articuno is centralizing the lower tiers.

[SCV]

I would post them, but the list is kind of long, and I didn't think anyone would read the list if they did not care for it. Here it is, anyway.

These are all Pokemon that should be moved from UU/NU up to OU. Note that BL is sort of a Limbo tier, as Pokemon constantly move to and from there.

How much would these have to be modified under what seems like what were headed for (4 tiers)?