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Perfect Balance (type chart edit)

eworm

By eworm
in ROM - 3DS Discussion & Help

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eworm

eworm

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Posted (edited)

We probably all know that some types are objectively better or worse than others - so as a mental exercise I've tried to change the type chart and make every single type equally good, with the same amount of strong and weak points. I am aware that stats, Abilities, movesets and more are all elements that will still make some Pokémon better than others, but it's a step in the right direction.

Now I'd love to see a rom edit of XY and/or ΩRαS that uses my new type chart. No other changes necessary, just modified type effectiveness.

First of all, my thought process. Every existing type I gave points according to the following:

STRENGTHS:

- resisting a type = +1 point

- being super-effective = +1 point

- being immune = +2 points

WEAKNESSES:

- being hit super-effectively = -1 point

- being resisted = -1 point

- being immune'd = -2 points

And here is what I found:

STEEL — 15 strengths VS 7 weaknesses | Overall score: +8

FAIRY — 8 strengths VS 5 weaknesses | Overall score: +3

FIRE — 10 strengths VS 7 weaknesses | Overall score: +3

GHOST — 8 strengths VS 5 weaknesses | Overall score: +3

GROUND — 9 strengths VS 7 weaknesses | Overall score: +2

WATER — 7 strengths VS 5 weaknesses | Overall score: +2

FLYING — 8 strengths VS 6 weaknesses | Overall score: +2

ROCK — 8 strengths VS 8 weaknesses | Overall score: 0

DARK— 6 strengths VS 6 weaknesses | Overall score: 0

POISON — 7 strengths VS 8 weaknesses | Overall score: -1

ELECTRIC — 5 strengths VS 6 weaknesses | Overall score: -1

DRAGON — 5 strengths VS 6 weaknesses | Overall score: -1

FIGHTING — 8 strengths VS 10 weaknesses | Overall score: -2

ICE — 5 strengths VS 8 weaknesses | Overall score: -3

PSYCHIC — 4 strengths VS 7 weaknesses | Overall score: -3

NORMAL — 2 strengths VS 5 weaknesses | Overall score: -3

BUG — 6 strengths VS 10 weaknesses | Overall score: -4

GRASS — 7 strengths VS 12 weaknesses | Overall score: -5

Next was the difficult part - changing type effectiveness in a way that would make all type come to zero points, perfectly balanced. I tried for my changes to make as much sense as possible, though the results are debatable - and that's why I feel a hack is necessary. To test it out and see whether or not doing it this way would make the game more fair.

Here it is:

Important: The below changes were the first version, see this post below for a revised one (link leads to the revised version).

  Reveal hidden contents

Other things to do in the hack would include:

- changing the effectiveness of Flying Press accordingly;

- make Scald a reverse Freeze-Dry? I mean, it would be weird if that attack was resisted by Ice;

- no need to worry about Shedinja, no weaknesses were gained or removed from either Bug and Ghost type;

- make sure Will-O-Wisp still hits Rock-types, despite the new immunity;

- make sure Steel remains immune to poisoning as a status, despite losing the Poison-type immunity.

- maybe change some related NPC dialogue? At least the Gym Guide Guy could be checked for possible lies.

Edited by eworm
  • 1 month later...
zarexraze

zarexraze

Posted
Posted (edited)
  eworm said:

Here it is:

  Reveal hidden contents

Other things to do in the hack would include:

- changing the effectiveness of Flying Press accordingly;

- make Scald a reverse Freeze-Dry? I mean, it would be weird if that attack was resisted by Ice;

- no need to worry about Shedinja, no weaknesses were gained or removed from either Bug and Ghost type;

- make sure Will-O-Wisp still hits Rock-types, despite the new immunity;

- make sure Steel remains immune to poisoning as a status, despite losing the Poison-type immunity.

- maybe change some related NPC dialogue? At least the Gym Guide Guy could be checked for possible lies.

Okay, so I looked at this and transcribed all of these changes to a visual type chart as seen here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HsdszoX3w9YhsSEGJ6MI9PPbc_KQ7XFw8Qbwrs2qpZE/edit#gid=1808302713

The only things added/changed is the empty slots for a Sound type and a ??? type, both of which I wish to add to a balanced type chart.

I must say, this is absolutely AMAZING. This is so far the only type chart I've seen that manages to actually balance the type chart AND do so with logistics.

I do have a couple of issues with it though, some are me just nitpicking and others are more legitimate concerns.

1. I really don't see Psychic being weak to Dragon. This is still a kids game, and my first thought of seeing the new weakness was "But I thought kids saw dragons as awesome, not scary".

2. I always thought that the reason why Ground was good on Poison was based on radioactive waste being buried deep underground, away from other life forms so that it can decompose naturally.

3. I find it hilarious that Pokemon like Breloom, which have abilities like Poison Heal, are now 4x weak to Poison. Also, Poliwrath I'm so sorry for your loss...

4. Because of Bug now resisting Ghost, Shedinja would actually no longer be weak to Ghost, which in Shedinjas' case means an immunity to Ghost.

5. As one that is hopeful for new types in the future, this doesn't really allow for any room for types like the Sound type. I guess that's saying something bout how good this type chart is, but still...

6. Though I haven't checked all possible type combinations, one of the reasons why a new type was added in Gen 6 was to prevent 0 weaknesses due to dual type pairing. Pokemon like Spiritomb, which had no weaknesses in Gen 5, now became weak to Fairy. But due to this type chart, a Ghost and Fairy typed Pokemon would have zero weaknesses. I personally find this ironic though, since my original concept of the Sound-type would be super-effective on both Ghost and Fairy types. :)

Edited by zarexraze
eworm

eworm

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Oh hey, someone actually read this. Let me address a few things:

· I admit I missed the Fairy/Ghost lack of weaknesses. Even though such a Pokémon doesn't exist (though it's coming and it's adorable), it is in fact possible to use Trick-or-Treat on a Fairy-type this gen. I do think having a combination with absolute zero weaknesses means risking creating something too good... But in this case, such a Pokémon would have no resistances either - only immunities to Dragon, Normal and Fighting. And even those are offset by how both its STAB options can be completely ineffective against Normal or Grass Pokémon.

All in all, I don't think this would be a huge problem, but I might try to do something about it if I have the time. Every change here has to be balanced by other changes and it always creates a chain reaction, it's not that simple.

· Shedinja indeed loses a weakness, my mistake - but I don't think that's actually a bad thing. The poor mon could use a little something, it's already killed by every kind of passive damage (or any Mold Breaker) and even lacks in offensive stats to make it usually worth it.

· Personally, I am quite against adding new types - eighteen is already a huge number (ask any newcomer to the franchise, but even long-time fans can forget some resistances and such) and the very reason behind me creating this chart was to balance them without another addition. Fairy is still very fresh anyway.

· Poison Heal Breloom does sound hilarious in this chart, I admit.

· Psychic being weak to Dragon is almost a necessity - if any type I'm afraid could be broken in my chart, it's Psychic. It's now great defensively and can only be resisted by itself, Dark (but commonly learned Focus Blast or Dazzling Gleam make it a non-issue) and Bug. So I needed it to have a weakness, and since the Dragon type makes sense, I took the opportunity. It stands to reason the "strongest" type would be super-effective against the potentially actually strongest type.

Because my console is using the newest firmware (11.0.0), I am unable to install custom firmware. Thus, I'm unable to play .cro-edited hacks and those are the only ones that can change the type chart. But if someone else is able to and wishes to play with my chart, please do (I can supply the edited DllBattle.cro file even) and by all means, keep me notified here if at any point something seems unfair or broken or otherwise unbalanced.

zarexraze

zarexraze

Posted
Posted (edited)

About the whole new type thing, to be fair, during the whole Light and Sound theory spiel, a lot of people said that seventeen types is enough. Then we got Fairy. I do agree that the Fairy-type is still fairly new (I swear that's not a pun, trust me), but I want to do the new types for fan games that I'm planning to do, NOT as speculation for the future. The ???-type (or Problem-type as I call it) is just impossible to put in official lore and contexts due to it's design, and I believe we got our answer for the Sound-types future in the shape of Noivern. I still believe that to this day, due to it being a bat and lurking in the night, it's a double play on words and design when it's literally the "nail in the coffin" for Sound-types.

As for the other things:

- I agree with Shedinja. All the way. 1 HP doesn't help it though...

- The way you put it actually makes the Ghost/Fairy typing pretty balanced. It's basically the same situation with Eelektross. It's zero weaknesses seems like a dream come true, until you see it's number of resistances and it's Speed.

- I can see your point with Psychic being weak to Dragon, it is a necessity in this case, I just find it funny that now the almighty and powerful Mewtwo will truly cower in fear to the true overload and master of our realm, Sir Goomy.

- I may be alone on this, but I actually don't see the Fairy-typing in Mimikkyu. I do love it's design though, it's creepy and adorable. The perfect combination.

- I did a double check on the type combinations, and there is one other type combo that should be looked at: Normal/Ghost. By this type chart it also has no weaknesses, but it has resistances to Poison, Bug, Steel and Fairy, has three immunities to Normal, Fighting and Ghost, and it's two stab options are pretty threatening. The only solace I can see is that the only way to get this typing in battle is with Trick-or-Treat, but the typing could possibly appear in the future.

Hey, since we're in the discussion for type chart changes, could you take a look at my version? It's not balanced number-wise, like you did, but I really tried to take other factors into account, like moves and abilities and what not (for example, this type chart assumes that all entry hazards now have a 5-turn limit, which I also plan to do in the fan games), so I'd love some sort of feedback from it. And yes, the Sound and Problem types are there, because of reasons previously stated. I will say this though, the ???-type does seem broken on the outset, but that type is planned to have a very low average stat total. Like, legendary ???-types would probably have stat totals like 500-535. The offensive coverage is also planned to be vast, but uncommon. A.k.a. most Pokemon can learn them, but only about two or three, at the most.

Here it is: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1j3MT2DwS_wmG4iI0OW65Woc1lBYy1i6pRApVwty6gfw/edit#gid=184606815

Edited by zarexraze
Misspelled something
eworm

eworm

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Normal/Ghost would, just like Fairy/Ghost, have no weaknesses indeed. So I decided to alter my chart a bit. After much deliberation, those are the changes I implemented, some of which are "going back to normal" actually. Enjoy the chain:

grass.png

  • no longer immune to Fairy, just resistant (-)
  • now strong against Ghost (+)

ghost.png

  • now weak to Grass (-)
  • now strong against Steel (+)

steel.png

  • now weak to Ghost (-)
  • back to not being weak to Dark (+)

dark.png

  • back to not being strong against Steel (-)
  • no longer weak to Bug (+)

bug.png

  • no longer strong against Dark (-)
  • now strong against Ground (+)

ground.png

  • now weak to Bug (-)
  • back to being strong against Poison (+)

poison.png

  • back to being weak against Ground (-)
  • back to not being resisted by Psychic (+)

psychic.png

  • back to not resisting Poison (-)
  • back to not being weak to Dragon (+)

dragon.png

  • back to not being strong against Psychic (-)
  • no longer ineffective against Fairy, just resisted by it (+)

fairy.png

  • no longer immune to Dragon, just resistant (-)
  • no longer ineffective against Grass, just resisted (+)

The link in the first post updated with a new PDF.

Now Normal/Ghost and Fairy/Ghost do have a weakness (Grass), while Shedinja doesn't go back to having five. Immunities are made into resistances and the new weakness of Steel is changed from Dark to Ghost. Psychic loses the "weird" Dragon weakness, Grass having an advantage over Ghost is a basic "life vs death" concept and Bug now beats Ground, like I actually wanted from the start, but didn't know how to balance it out.

  • 4 months later...
ithilelda

ithilelda

Posted
Posted (edited)

  It is interesting to see that different efforts on balancing the type chart can come to a convergence and I'd like to say good work first! I have a type chart quite similar to yours! However, a perfectly balanced chart may not result in a perfectly balance game. One problem is that the offensive ability and the defensive ability of a type are different things. Another problem is that you can't balance a type without looking at the actual pokemon population and the move pool.

  Let's start by analyzing move pool and then pokemons to see how Fairy comes to its birth. Normal, Fire, Grass, Fighting, Flying and Dragon all have 120 power 100% accuracy moves. Water, Electric, Ice, Poison, Ground, Psychic may also have them but limited to a handful of pokemons, or they only have not so accurate gambler (hydro pump 85%, blizzard 70%, etc.). Thus, a way to counter pokemons of these types is quite a good measure in how OP the type is. Before XY, Normal has Ghost immunity, Fire and Flying are hindered by a popular move I will come to later, and Grass is nowhere near the others with its massive ineffectives (seriously 7 ineffectives out of 18??). It leaves Fighting and Dragon the most devastating attackers. However, Fighting type pokemons aren't that popular because of their general lack of base stats. Dragon was the BIG problem. There are tons of 600s that are dragon, and most of them have attack stats above 120. Consider the fact that Dragon was only resisted by Steel, this had boiled down to the Outrage/Draco meteor war at the end of BW era. Everyone used dragon, and to wall them, you had to use steel, and steel was nonetheless a super type back then (still resisted ghost and dark, 14 resistances out of 17 types, haha great job!). This is the actual reason that Fairy was born with its immunity to dragons. On the otherhand, the problem for Fire and Flying I mentioned earlier, you probably have already guessed, was stealth rock. This stupidly OP entry hazzard kind of banned most fire types from the metagame with the only exception of Blaziken and Heatran. It consequentially added the viability of steel typing again, which is weak to fire and strong against rock (and probably also boosted fighting presence, which is strong against rock too). This is why a nonsense resistance and a nonsense weakness were added to Fire and Fighting when XY released, although I do doubt that Game Freak was playing favorite on Charizard and Blaziken. Fairy's strength to Dark was added purely for Hydreigon, who had no 4x weakness before (there's nothing to do with the dark/ghost perfect typing thing. It doesn't matter how many weaknesses you have. The big problem is how many resistances you have. dark/ghost pokemon really never do well in that area, so they are never too popular). If you have faced a choice specs Hydreigon in BW, you knew what terror meant. Thus, Fairy's typing had solid reasoning except the bug thing (I 100% agree with you. It is a bad joke! U-turn and Scizor is not a Bug problem, it is a pokemon problem!), and I would not nerf it too much besides removing the bug resistance. You could stretch a little bit by adding more weaknesses (I agree well on the weakness to grass), but I would not remove the immunity.

  Of the other types, Dragon is not weak because of the reasons I've mentioned above. Move pool and Pokemon availability should always be considered. I actually nerfed it further. In reality, Azumarill, Diancie and Mawile are quite OP so they should receive a nerf, not dragons receiving a buff. Garchomp, Dragonite, Latios and Hydreigon are cheat buttons for kids, but they should not be so for prepared matchmaker. On the other hand, due to their superior base stat, Dragon could still sweep the entire team if Fairy was beaten up.

  I would also suggest the removal of Ice's weakness to Rock instead of adding other resistances. Stealth Rock IS the main problem. Fire and Flying are strong attackers so it is fair to cut their health in half. Ice barely has good pokemons. The top "Ice" type in use is actually protean Greninja...Greninja is OP because it is the only thing that's valid in OU who could do a STAB ice beam to kill that ubiquitous Landorus-T/Garchomp/Dragonite/Gliscor!

  Moreover, I also felt the same thing that Ghost is pretty hard to balance, so I moved Dark around a little bit to solve the problem that Dark and Ghost are too similar offensively. By doing so, I am incapable of assigning a 4x dark weakness to Aegislash, so I made my decision to give it 4x Ghost. Either way, Giving Aegislash a 4x shouldn't raise too much debate. Everyone knows that it is OP.

  Finally, IMO the water type problem should be solved not by nerfing it, but by actually buffing it's enemy- Electric. The infinitesimal buff is a bad news for Skarmory but not for water type pokemons... I have yet to come up with anything valid as a electric buff. Maybe this thread could serve as the ground for discussion.

Edited by ithilelda
  • 2 years later...
SAHunterMech

SAHunterMech

Posted
Posted

Hello there, old thread but I wanted to reach out and say thanks for trying to tackle this. It's been one of my biggest pet peeves over the years, how some times are just straight up better than others. And don't get me started about the logic - - - I always catch myself going, "Well steel has to be weak to electricity, that just makes sense! Buuuuut nope!" This being said, I don't think perfect balance is achievable, but a better effort can certainly be made than what Game Freak has accomplished so far and you have made the first big strides.

I used your changes (and revisions) as a base for a new chart. I'll say right off the bat that my philosophy is to prioritize fairness over the logic of type interactions; I shuffled some stuff around and made a chart where no dual-types have more than one 4x weakness and the amount of 2x weaknesses in each type, single or dual, is more evenly spread. I plan to make a custom version of Pokémon showdown with this type chart, altered stats, new abilities, new items and alterations to statuses/hazards in an effort to make the game more fun on a competitive level. That also being said, I hold the firm believe that a game that is fun on a competitive level can have that fun trickle down to the casual level too.

New Type Chart.jpeg

  • 4 years later...
Lucieya

Lucieya

Posted
Posted

Your approach to balancing the type chart is intriguing. A lot of thought went into trying to make each type equally viable. The idea of testing this in a ROM hack of XY or ΩRαS is a great way to see how these changes play out in practice.

I highly recommend reviewing the type matchup guide for anyone interested in delving deeper into type matchups. It could offer additional insights and be a valuable resource for refining your balanced type chart.

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