idea Perfect Balance (type chart edit)

[eworm]

We probably all know that some types are objectively better or worse than others - so as a mental exercise I've tried to change the type chart and make every single type equally good, with the same amount of strong and weak points. I am aware that stats, Abilities, movesets and more are all elements that will still make some Pokémon better than others, but it's a step in the right direction.

Now I'd love to see a rom edit of XY and/or ΩRαS that uses my new type chart. No other changes necessary, just modified type effectiveness.

First of all, my thought process. Every existing type I gave points according to the following:

STRENGTHS:

- resisting a type = +1 point

- being super-effective = +1 point

- being immune = +2 points

WEAKNESSES:

- being hit super-effectively = -1 point

- being resisted = -1 point

- being immune'd = -2 points

And here is what I found:

STEEL — 15 strengths VS 7 weaknesses | Overall score: +8

FAIRY — 8 strengths VS 5 weaknesses | Overall score: +3

FIRE — 10 strengths VS 7 weaknesses | Overall score: +3

GHOST — 8 strengths VS 5 weaknesses | Overall score: +3

GROUND — 9 strengths VS 7 weaknesses | Overall score: +2

WATER — 7 strengths VS 5 weaknesses | Overall score: +2

FLYING — 8 strengths VS 6 weaknesses | Overall score: +2

ROCK — 8 strengths VS 8 weaknesses | Overall score: 0

DARK— 6 strengths VS 6 weaknesses | Overall score: 0

POISON — 7 strengths VS 8 weaknesses | Overall score: -1

ELECTRIC — 5 strengths VS 6 weaknesses | Overall score: -1

DRAGON — 5 strengths VS 6 weaknesses | Overall score: -1

FIGHTING — 8 strengths VS 10 weaknesses | Overall score: -2

ICE — 5 strengths VS 8 weaknesses | Overall score: -3

PSYCHIC — 4 strengths VS 7 weaknesses | Overall score: -3

NORMAL — 2 strengths VS 5 weaknesses | Overall score: -3

BUG — 6 strengths VS 10 weaknesses | Overall score: -4

GRASS — 7 strengths VS 12 weaknesses | Overall score: -5

Next was the difficult part - changing type effectiveness in a way that would make all type come to zero points, perfectly balanced. I tried for my changes to make as much sense as possible, though the results are debatable - and that's why I feel a hack is necessary. To test it out and see whether or not doing it this way would make the game more fair.

Here it is:

Potentially Perfect Type Chart

Important: The below changes were the first version, see this post below for a revised one (link leads to the revised version).

 

THE CHANGES:

• now resistant to Fairy, Dark and Bug (+)

It was really difficult to come up with a way to balance the Normal-type. On one hand, it desperately needed help, but on the other - I couldn't just make it super-effective against something. Every Pokémon in existence can learn Normal attacks, which would make whatever type Normal would damage utterly useless.

Therefore, I settled on giving it a few resistances - but even that wasn't easy. What could such a "non-element" resist, after all? In the end I settled with Bug - the type representing the weakest of creatures - and the combo of "good and evil" in Fairy and Dark. Since Normal is such a perfect "neutral" type, I figured it could balance both of these.

• now weak to Poison (-)
• no longer resistant to Ice (-)
• now resisted by Ice (-)
• now resistant to Rock (+)

I think these changes are pretty self-explanatory. Ice needed a defensive buff and since Water freezes in low temperatures, Water seemed like - excuse my pun - a solid idea for a resistance. Since I went with this logic, it only made sense to take away Water's resistance to Ice as well.

The weakness to Poison stems from my point of view that the Death type shouldn't be awful offensively. Pollution is a big problem and it makes such a weakness perfectly reasonable, in my opinion.

Despite losing a resistance to Ice, Water has gained a new resistance to Rock-type in my chart. This is one of the decision I made late into the experiment, when I needed to balance things between just a couple of types. Considering Water is strong against Rock already, making it resistant to it doesn't seem that Farfetch'd. Especially if one considers that Rock is a "solid" type that can't properly "hit" or "slice through" a liquid. Yes, Water-types are rarely made of Water, but are mostly based on water-dwelling creatures, but again - since Rock is already at a disadvantage against Water, making it a Rock-resistance should be less glaringly weird than suddenly coming up with, say, a Fighting-resistance.

• no longer weak to Flying (+)
• now resistant to Rock and Ghost (+)
• now immune to Fairy (+)

Okay, here we go, the worst type. As well as my favorite one. For this one, I tried to keep the boosts defensive. Grass in this chart represents the quiet but stubborn nature that's not really hostile, but hard to get rid of. Therefore, I removed a weakness, added two resistances and an immunity.

Out of all the type's weaknesses, Flying has always made the least sense to me. Sure, birds eat seeds and fruit and whatnot, but they're not necessarily destroying plants. If anything, they fly high above all of them, safe from them. Not to mention not all the Flying types are based on birds anyway. Therefore, while Grass would remain not-very-effective against Flying types, I took away the weakness.

The immunity to Fairy is pretty obvious to me. When the new type was introduced, I was certain it would have some kind of relationship with Grass. I mean fairies and nature? Therefore, this is the one immunity I would give to Grass types without hesitation.

And then come the resistances to Rock and Ghost. You'll find out that I gave a couple other types resistances to Ghost and the types I chose are the ones most connected with nature. Nature is full of life and energy, something ghosts, at least comprehended as dead spirits, lack and cannot suppress.

The resistance to Rock once again is - just like in case of Water type - mostly me turning a one-side advantage into a two-sided one. The result, incidentally, is that all the Rock type's weaknesses now also resist it.

• now resisted by Psychic (-)
• no longer resistant to Fairy (-)
• now deals no damage against Rock (-)

Psychic type has received a couple of new resistances, among them being Fire. Considering the type is all about mind-over-matter, I have decided that skilled Psychics can overcome the sensation of intense heat with mind power alone and thusly resist Fire attacks. It might be a stretch, but I didn't make it one-sided - you'll find Psychic now also resists Ice, the opposite element.

In my chart Fire loses its Fairy-resistance. It never made much sense to me anyway.

And finally the biggest change - one of the few new immunities. Rock is now immune to Fire completely, not just resistant. I don't even think it's that much of a stretch. I'd probably make an exception for Will-O-Wisp. If Rock-types were impossible to burn, they could be a bit too much.

• no longer resistant to Bug (-)
• now resistant to Steel (+)
• now resisted by Bug, Fairy and Grass (-)

I was surprised how hard Ghost type was to balance, but after some brainstorming, I settled for this. Resistance to Steel is reasonable enough, I think. Why would a ghost be damaged by the most "material" type? Sure, you can think of several "horrory" creatures that are damaged by silver, but that's for the Fairy type to represent.

I removed the resistance to Bug mostly because of the fact Bug now resists Ghost and two-way resistance would probably make it seem weird. Like I said, I gave several types connected to nature resistances to Ghosts which are already outside the circle of life. Those types are Bug, Grass and Fairy and I think it makes enough sense.

• now resistant to Steel (+)
• no longer resisted by Fairy and Poison (+)
• now weak to Poison (-)

It felt weird to buff the Fighting type, knowing how solid it already is. Nevertheless, it would turn into garbage if I balanced all the others and left it alone, so I gave it some more power. Because Fighting type is quite obviously meant to be an offensive one, I removed two resistances to it from the chart. I always thought the Poison-Fighting relationship was backwards and Poison should be strong offensively on Fighting and not defensively - which is what I did.

Additionally, I made Fairies lose their resistance to Fighting, because even if magic can take down a knight, so can a knight smash a little fairy. Fighting remains weak to Fairy, it just has more of a chance now.

• no longer strong against Grass (-)
• now resisted by Ice (-)

Poor Flying-types, I was forced to give them nothing but nerfs. I've already explained why I removed Grass type's weakness to it and I think Ice resisting it also doesn't require much discussion. After all, what is a bird to do with a block of ice? It's not food, it's not shelter - if anything it's unpleasant and makes the bird want to fly far south. Blowing on an ice cube doesn't really melt it either.

• now strong against Fighting and Water (+)
• no longer ineffective against Steel, just resisted (+)
• no longer weak to Ground (+)
• no longer resistant to Bug and Fighting (-)
• now resisted by Psychic (-)

Both of Poison type's new offensive advantages I have already explained - I really think Poison should be a solid offensive type, it's freakin' Poison for crying out loud. I also removed Steel type's immunity, but kept it a resistance. I know some think Poison could be strong against Steel even, considering steel can be melted with acid and whatnot... But that would be way too drastic a change. Steel types could still be immune to poisoning, but not Poison-type attacks.

Similarly, Psychic types now resist Poison. A strong mind can suppress the effects of toxins.

Ground is no longer super-effective on Poison-types. I'm not sure why it was in the first place.

Making Poison an offensive type also means taking some of its defensive advantages. I chose to take away two of its resistances, namely Fighting - again, one can poison a martial artist, but why would a martial artist be unable to punch a poisonous mushroom or spider? - and Bug. Explanation for the latter below.

• no longer resisted by Fairy, Ghost and Poison (+)
• now resisted by Normal (-)
• now resistant to Ghost and Psychic (+)

Remember how my goal for Grass type was to make it more defensive? Bug type is the opposite - representing the more... forward part of nature. Bugs bite you, bugs sting you, bugs crawl all over you, annoy you, they're everywhere. Therefore, I tried to make the type more offensively viable.

That's why I chose to remove some Bug-resistances from the chart. Fairy's resistance was a cruel joke of Game Freak and I'm taking it back with no regrets.

Ghost types are now resisted by Bug, not the other way around, and I've already explained my reason twice. Poison no longer resists Bugs either, being more of an offensive version of itself. Besides, real bugs can eat pretty much everything, from garbage to corpse, and not get a bellyache, I think they should be able to take on a Poison-type.

Another huge perk for Bugs is how they're too simple-minded to be bothered by Psychic attacks. They're now valuable as one of only two types (other than Psychic itself) that can take a Psychic hit.

However, Bug types, as mentioned before, are resisted by Normal type now, a resistance that represents their overall low position in the animal kingdom.

• now resisted by Grass and Water (-)
• now immune to Fire (+)
• now resistant to Ice (+)

Hey, you know what Rock-type Pokémon specialize in? Yes, defense. So why is Rock type so awful defensively? Here's a fix - at the cost of getting offensively disadvantaged (against two types you will most definitely switch out from, so who cares), Rock gains a resistance to common Ice attacks (Rock/Grounds rejoice) and an immunity to Fire.

• now resistant to Steel (+)
• no longer strong against Poison (-)
• now resisted by Dragon and Psychic (-)

I don't think I need to explain the Steel resistance - Steel needed a lot of nerfs and Ground is already a good option against it.

What is this about Dragon and Psychic types resisting Ground-attacks? Well, considering almost every Psychic Pokémon has telekinetic powers to float, I've decided even without the actual Levitate Ability, they could partially escape the damage from Ground attacks. Dragons needed a buff, but considering how high their stats typically are, I didn't want them to benefit too much from it anyway. Sounds cruel, but yes, the main reason I gave Dragons a Ground resistance is because so many of them are already immune to the type anyway. Stay with me though, Dragon fans, because I actually gave them another, more useful new toy...

• now resisted by Fighting, Ghost and Ground (-)
• no longer immune to Poison, just resistant to it (-)
• no longer resistant to Ice and Psychic (-)
• now weak to Dark and Electric (-)

Oh boy, here we go. The type I had to absolutely ruin for balance to even be a word worth using. I tried my best not to make Steel utterly useless, nor did I change its role. It's still defensively amazing. Just not defensively broken.

The lost resistances have been explained already, just like the change from Poison-immunity to a resistance. The rest?

I removed two of Steel's resistances. One is to Ice type, which remains weak to Steel attacks, but deserves a fighting chance. Especially since its sister type, Water, isn't resisted. A bit of a stretch, but hey, try removing eight chart-points from a type without stretching at all and then we'll talk.

The other lost resistance, Psychic, is a pretty hilarious one, considering the reason Steel type was introduced in the first place was largely to nerf Psychic types. However, the resistance doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense. Sure, if a Pokémon is a robot, it has no real brain to mess with - but they can still be picked up with telekinesis and thrown against the wall, not to mention plenty of Steel-type Pokémon are not machines, just Pokémon with metallic bodies.

And of course, let's address the most striking change - two new weaknesses. Steel might be designed to take hits, but with only three weaknesses, it's been forcing people to run three types of attacks on every team if not every Pokémon. I have nothing against Fire, Ground and Fighting Pokémon, but Steel's abundance made them abundant... And well, Ice type is pretty much extinct now, thanks. Electric weakness is here simply because if water conducting electricity equals a weakness, Steel has no reason not to follow the same logic. I chose Dark for the other weakness, because if anyone could find and exploit a weak point in the Steel-types' armor, it would be the sneaky Dark Pokémon.

• Now strong against Steel (+)

That's it. Yeah, not much change here.

• no longer resisted by Water and Steel (+)
• now resisted by Psychic and Rock (-)
• now resistant to Dragon, Flying and Water (+)

Oh, Ice type. You poor thing, it's okay now, don't cry, it's all good.

Glorious resistances to Dragon (because that advantage was used much better by Water-types than actual Ice-types) and two of the most common types in the games (bar Normal) certainly helps all those defensive Ice-types that could survive maybe two hits despite all their bulk.

Offensive trouble with Water and Steel are now replaced with Psychic and Rock. Again, a well-trained mind can withstand any temperature, while Rock is harder than Ice and meant to be a defensive type.

• now strong against Steel (+)
• now resisted by Normal (-)

Dark was already well-balanced, so the changes here I kept to a minimum.

• no longer resisted by Steel (+)
• now resistant to Fire, Ice, Ground and Poison (+)
• now resisted by Bug (-)
• now weak to Dragon (-)

All of the above I have already explained, except for this new surprising weakness. Dragon? Super-effective against something that isn't itself? Yes, considering the weaknesses of the Psychic type are meant to be fears, I deem a Dragon weakness reasonable.

• now strong against Psychic (+)
• now resisted by Ice (-)
• now resistant to Ground (+)

All mentioned before.

• no longer resisted by Fire (+)
• now resisted by Normal (-)
• no longer resistant to Fighting and Bug (-)
• now resistant to Ghost (+)
• now deals no damage against Grass (-)

Again, see above.

Other things to do in the hack would include:

- changing the effectiveness of Flying Press accordingly;

- make Scald a reverse Freeze-Dry? I mean, it would be weird if that attack was resisted by Ice;

- no need to worry about Shedinja, no weaknesses were gained or removed from either Bug and Ghost type;

- make sure Will-O-Wisp still hits Rock-types, despite the new immunity;

- make sure Steel remains immune to poisoning as a status, despite losing the Poison-type immunity.

- maybe change some related NPC dialogue? At least the Gym Guide Guy could be checked for possible lies.

Edited September 21, 2019 by eworm

[zarexraze]

Here it is:

Potentially Perfect Type Chart

THE CHANGES:

• now resistant to Fairy, Dark and Bug (+)
  

It was really difficult to come up with a way to balance the Normal-type. On one hand, it desperately needed help, but on the other - I couldn't just make it super-effective against something. Every Pokémon in existence can learn Normal attacks, which would make whatever type Normal would damage utterly useless.

Therefore, I settled on giving it a few resistances - but even that wasn't easy. What could such a "non-element" resist, after all? In the end I settled with Bug - the type representing the weakest of creatures - and the combo of "good and evil" in Fairy and Dark. Since Normal is such a perfect "neutral" type, I figured it could balance both of these.

• now weak to Poison (-)
  
• no longer resistant to Ice (-)
  
• now resisted by Ice (-)
  
• now resistant to Rock (+)
  

I think these changes are pretty self-explanatory. Ice needed a defensive buff and since Water freezes in low temperatures, Water seemed like - excuse my pun - a solid idea for a resistance. Since I went with this logic, it only made sense to take away Water's resistance to Ice as well.

The weakness to Poison stems from my point of view that the Death type shouldn't be awful offensively. Pollution is a big problem and it makes such a weakness perfectly reasonable, in my opinion.

Despite losing a resistance to Ice, Water has gained a new resistance to Rock-type in my chart. This is one of the decision I made late into the experiment, when I needed to balance things between just a couple of types. Considering Water is strong against Rock already, making it resistant to it doesn't seem that Farfetch'd. Especially if one considers that Rock is a "solid" type that can't properly "hit" or "slice through" a liquid. Yes, Water-types are rarely made of Water, but are mostly based on water-dwelling creatures, but again - since Rock is already at a disadvantage against Water, making it a Rock-resistance should be less glaringly weird than suddenly coming up with, say, a Fighting-resistance.

• no longer weak to Flying (+)
  
• now resistant to Rock and Ghost (+)
  
• now immune to Fairy (+)
  

Okay, here we go, the worst type. As well as my favorite one. For this one, I tried to keep the boosts defensive. Grass in this chart represents the quiet but stubborn nature that's not really hostile, but hard to get rid of. Therefore, I removed a weakness, added two resistances and an immunity.

Out of all the type's weaknesses, Flying has always made the least sense to me. Sure, birds eat seeds and fruit and whatnot, but they're not necessarily destroying plants. If anything, they fly high above all of them, safe from them. Not to mention not all the Flying types are based on birds anyway. Therefore, while Grass would remain not-very-effective against Flying types, I took away the weakness.

The immunity to Fairy is pretty obvious to me. When the new type was introduced, I was certain it would have some kind of relationship with Grass. I mean fairies and nature? Therefore, this is the one immunity I would give to Grass types without hesitation.

And then come the resistances to Rock and Ghost. You'll find out that I gave a couple other types resistances to Ghost and the types I chose are the ones most connected with nature. Nature is full of life and energy, something ghosts, at least comprehended as dead spirits, lack and cannot suppress.

The resistance to Rock once again is - just like in case of Water type - mostly me turning a one-side advantage into a two-sided one. The result, incidentally, is that all the Rock type's weaknesses now also resist it.

• now resisted by Psychic (-)
  
• no longer resistant to Fairy (-)
  
• now deals no damage against Rock (-)
  

Psychic type has received a couple of new resistances, among them being Fire. Considering the type is all about mind-over-matter, I have decided that skilled Psychics can overcome the sensation of intense heat with mind power alone and thusly resist Fire attacks. It might be a stretch, but I didn't make it one-sided - you'll find Psychic now also resists Ice, the opposite element.

In my chart Fire loses its Fairy-resistance. It never made much sense to me anyway.

And finally the biggest change - one of the few new immunities. Rock is now immune to Fire completely, not just resistant. I don't even think it's that much of a stretch. I'd probably make an exception for Will-O-Wisp. If Rock-types were impossible to burn, they could be a bit too much.

• no longer resistant to Bug (-)
  
• now resistant to Steel (+)
  
• now resisted by Bug, Fairy and Grass (-)
  

I was surprised how hard Ghost type was to balance, but after some brainstorming, I settled for this. Resistance to Steel is reasonable enough, I think. Why would a ghost be damaged by the most "material" type? Sure, you can think of several "horrory" creatures that are damaged by silver, but that's for the Fairy type to represent.

I removed the resistance to Bug mostly because of the fact Bug now resists Ghost and two-way resistance would probably make it seem weird. Like I said, I gave several types connected to nature resistances to Ghosts which are already outside the circle of life. Those types are Bug, Grass and Fairy and I think it makes enough sense.

• now resistant to Steel (+)
  
• no longer resisted by Fairy and Poison (+)
  
• now weak to Poison (-)
  

It felt weird to buff the Fighting type, knowing how solid it already is. Nevertheless, it would turn into garbage if I balanced all the others and left it alone, so I gave it some more power. Because Fighting type is quite obviously meant to be an offensive one, I removed two resistances to it from the chart. I always thought the Poison-Fighting relationship was backwards and Poison should be strong offensively on Fighting and not defensively - which is what I did.

Additionally, I made Fairies lose their resistance to Fighting, because even if magic can take down a knight, so can a knight smash a little fairy. Fighting remains weak to Fairy, it just has more of a chance now.

• no longer strong against Grass (-)
  
• now resisted by Ice (-)
  

Poor Flying-types, I was forced to give them nothing but nerfs. I've already explained why I removed Grass type's weakness to it and I think Ice resisting it also doesn't require much discussion. After all, what is a bird to do with a block of ice? It's not food, it's not shelter - if anything it's unpleasant and makes the bird want to fly far south. Blowing on an ice cube doesn't really melt it either.

• now strong against Fighting and Water (+)
  
• no longer ineffective against Steel, just resisted (+)
  
• no longer weak to Ground (+)
  
• no longer resistant to Bug and Fighting (-)
  
• now resisted by Psychic (-)
  

Both of Poison type's new offensive advantages I have already explained - I really think Poison should be a solid offensive type, it's freakin' Poison for crying out loud. I also removed Steel type's immunity, but kept it a resistance. I know some think Poison could be strong against Steel even, considering steel can be melted with acid and whatnot... But that would be way too drastic a change. Steel types could still be immune to poisoning, but not Poison-type attacks.

Similarly, Psychic types now resist Poison. A strong mind can suppress the effects of toxins.

Ground is no longer super-effective on Poison-types. I'm not sure why it was in the first place.

Making Poison an offensive type also means taking some of its defensive advantages. I chose to take away two of its resistances, namely Fighting - again, one can poison a martial artist, but why would a martial artist be unable to punch a poisonous mushroom or spider? - and Bug. Explanation for the latter below.

• no longer resisted by Fairy, Ghost and Poison (+)
  
• now resisted by Normal (-)
  
• now resistant to Ghost and Psychic (+)
  

Remember how my goal for Grass type was to make it more defensive? Bug type is the opposite - representing the more... forward part of nature. Bugs bite you, bugs sting you, bugs crawl all over you, annoy you, they're everywhere. Therefore, I tried to make the type more offensively viable.

That's why I chose to remove some Bug-resistances from the chart. Fairy's resistance was a cruel joke of Game Freak and I'm taking it back with no regrets.

Ghost types are now resisted by Bug, not the other way around, and I've already explained my reason twice. Poison no longer resists Bugs either, being more of an offensive version of itself. Besides, real bugs can eat pretty much everything, from garbage to corpse, and not get a bellyache, I think they should be able to take on a Poison-type.

Another huge perk for Bugs is how they're too simple-minded to be bothered by Psychic attacks. They're now valuable as one of only two types (other than Psychic itself) that can take a Psychic hit.

However, Bug types, as mentioned before, are resisted by Normal type now, a resistance that represents their overall low position in the animal kingdom.

• now resisted by Grass and Water (-)
  
• now immune to Fire (+)
  
• now resistant to Ice (+)
  

Hey, you know what Rock-type Pokémon specialize in? Yes, defense. So why is Rock type so awful defensively? Here's a fix - at the cost of getting offensively disadvantaged (against two types you will most definitely switch out from, so who cares), Rock gains a resistance to common Ice attacks (Rock/Grounds rejoice) and an immunity to Fire.

• now resistant to Steel (+)
  
• no longer strong against Poison (-)
  
• now resisted by Dragon and Psychic (-)
  

I don't think I need to explain the Steel resistance - Steel needed a lot of nerfs and Ground is already a good option against it.

What is this about Dragon and Psychic types resisting Ground-attacks? Well, considering almost every Psychic Pokémon has telekinetic powers to float, I've decided even without the actual Levitate Ability, they could partially escape the damage from Ground attacks. Dragons needed a buff, but considering how high their stats typically are, I didn't want them to benefit too much from it anyway. Sounds cruel, but yes, the main reason I gave Dragons a Ground resistance is because so many of them are already immune to the type anyway. Stay with me though, Dragon fans, because I actually gave them another, more useful new toy...

• now resisted by Fighting, Ghost and Ground (-)
  
• no longer immune to Poison, just resistant to it (-)
  
• no longer resistant to Ice and Psychic (-)
  
• now weak to Dark and Electric (-)
  

Oh boy, here we go. The type I had to absolutely ruin for balance to even be a word worth using. I tried my best not to make Steel utterly useless, nor did I change its role. It's still defensively amazing. Just not defensively broken.

The lost resistances have been explained already, just like the change from Poison-immunity to a resistance. The rest?

I removed two of Steel's resistances. One is to Ice type, which remains weak to Steel attacks, but deserves a fighting chance. Especially since its sister type, Water, isn't resisted. A bit of a stretch, but hey, try removing eight chart-points from a type without stretching at all and then we'll talk.

The other lost resistance, Psychic, is a pretty hilarious one, considering the reason Steel type was introduced in the first place was largely to nerf Psychic types. However, the resistance doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense. Sure, if a Pokémon is a robot, it has no real brain to mess with - but they can still be picked up with telekinesis and thrown against the wall, not to mention plenty of Steel-type Pokémon are not machines, just Pokémon with metallic bodies.

And of course, let's address the most striking change - two new weaknesses. Steel might be designed to take hits, but with only three weaknesses, it's been forcing people to run three types of attacks on every team if not every Pokémon. I have nothing against Fire, Ground and Fighting Pokémon, but Steel's abundance made them abundant... And well, Ice type is pretty much extinct now, thanks. Electric weakness is here simply because if water conducting electricity equals a weakness, Steel has no reason not to follow the same logic. I chose Dark for the other weakness, because if anyone could find and exploit a weak point in the Steel-types' armor, it would be the sneaky Dark Pokémon.

• Now strong against Steel (+)
  

That's it. Yeah, not much change here.

• no longer resisted by Water and Steel (+)
  
• now resisted by Psychic and Rock (-)
  
• now resistant to Dragon, Flying and Water (+)
  

Oh, Ice type. You poor thing, it's okay now, don't cry, it's all good.

Glorious resistances to Dragon (because that advantage was used much better by Water-types than actual Ice-types) and two of the most common types in the games (bar Normal) certainly helps all those defensive Ice-types that could survive maybe two hits despite all their bulk.

Offensive trouble with Water and Steel are now replaced with Psychic and Rock. Again, a well-trained mind can withstand any temperature, while Rock is harder than Ice and meant to be a defensive type.

• now strong against Steel (+)
  
• now resisted by Normal (-)
  

Dark was already well-balanced, so the changes here I kept to a minimum.

• no longer resisted by Steel (+)
  
• now resistant to Fire, Ice, Ground and Poison (+)
  
• now resisted by Bug (-)
  
• now weak to Dragon (-)
  

All of the above I have already explained, except for this new surprising weakness. Dragon? Super-effective against something that isn't itself? Yes, considering the weaknesses of the Psychic type are meant to be fears, I deem a Dragon weakness reasonable.

• now strong against Psychic (+)
  
• now resisted by Ice (-)
  
• now resistant to Ground (+)
  

All mentioned before.

• no longer resisted by Fire (+)
  
• now resisted by Normal (-)
  
• no longer resistant to Fighting and Bug (-)
  
• now resistant to Ghost (+)
  
• now deals no damage against Grass (-)
  

Again, see above.

Other things to do in the hack would include:

- changing the effectiveness of Flying Press accordingly;

- make Scald a reverse Freeze-Dry? I mean, it would be weird if that attack was resisted by Ice;

- no need to worry about Shedinja, no weaknesses were gained or removed from either Bug and Ghost type;

- make sure Will-O-Wisp still hits Rock-types, despite the new immunity;

- make sure Steel remains immune to poisoning as a status, despite losing the Poison-type immunity.

- maybe change some related NPC dialogue? At least the Gym Guide Guy could be checked for possible lies.

Okay, so I looked at this and transcribed all of these changes to a visual type chart as seen here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HsdszoX3w9YhsSEGJ6MI9PPbc_KQ7XFw8Qbwrs2qpZE/edit#gid=1808302713

The only things added/changed is the empty slots for a Sound type and a ??? type, both of which I wish to add to a balanced type chart.

I must say, this is absolutely AMAZING. This is so far the only type chart I've seen that manages to actually balance the type chart AND do so with logistics.

I do have a couple of issues with it though, some are me just nitpicking and others are more legitimate concerns.

1. I really don't see Psychic being weak to Dragon. This is still a kids game, and my first thought of seeing the new weakness was "But I thought kids saw dragons as awesome, not scary".

2. I always thought that the reason why Ground was good on Poison was based on radioactive waste being buried deep underground, away from other life forms so that it can decompose naturally.

3. I find it hilarious that Pokemon like Breloom, which have abilities like Poison Heal, are now 4x weak to Poison. Also, Poliwrath I'm so sorry for your loss...

4. Because of Bug now resisting Ghost, Shedinja would actually no longer be weak to Ghost, which in Shedinjas' case means an immunity to Ghost.

5. As one that is hopeful for new types in the future, this doesn't really allow for any room for types like the Sound type. I guess that's saying something bout how good this type chart is, but still...

6. Though I haven't checked all possible type combinations, one of the reasons why a new type was added in Gen 6 was to prevent 0 weaknesses due to dual type pairing. Pokemon like Spiritomb, which had no weaknesses in Gen 5, now became weak to Fairy. But due to this type chart, a Ghost and Fairy typed Pokemon would have zero weaknesses. I personally find this ironic though, since my original concept of the Sound-type would be super-effective on both Ghost and Fairy types.

Edited July 15, 2016 by zarexraze

[eworm]

Oh hey, someone actually read this. Let me address a few things:

· I admit I missed the Fairy/Ghost lack of weaknesses. Even though such a Pokémon doesn't exist (though it's coming and it's adorable), it is in fact possible to use Trick-or-Treat on a Fairy-type this gen. I do think having a combination with absolute zero weaknesses means risking creating something too good... But in this case, such a Pokémon would have no resistances either - only immunities to Dragon, Normal and Fighting. And even those are offset by how both its STAB options can be completely ineffective against Normal or Grass Pokémon.

All in all, I don't think this would be a huge problem, but I might try to do something about it if I have the time. Every change here has to be balanced by other changes and it always creates a chain reaction, it's not that simple.

· Shedinja indeed loses a weakness, my mistake - but I don't think that's actually a bad thing. The poor mon could use a little something, it's already killed by every kind of passive damage (or any Mold Breaker) and even lacks in offensive stats to make it usually worth it.

· Personally, I am quite against adding new types - eighteen is already a huge number (ask any newcomer to the franchise, but even long-time fans can forget some resistances and such) and the very reason behind me creating this chart was to balance them without another addition. Fairy is still very fresh anyway.

· Poison Heal Breloom does sound hilarious in this chart, I admit.

· Psychic being weak to Dragon is almost a necessity - if any type I'm afraid could be broken in my chart, it's Psychic. It's now great defensively and can only be resisted by itself, Dark (but commonly learned Focus Blast or Dazzling Gleam make it a non-issue) and Bug. So I needed it to have a weakness, and since the Dragon type makes sense, I took the opportunity. It stands to reason the "strongest" type would be super-effective against the potentially actually strongest type.

Because my console is using the newest firmware (11.0.0), I am unable to install custom firmware. Thus, I'm unable to play .cro-edited hacks and those are the only ones that can change the type chart. But if someone else is able to and wishes to play with my chart, please do (I can supply the edited DllBattle.cro file even) and by all means, keep me notified here if at any point something seems unfair or broken or otherwise unbalanced.

[zarexraze]

About the whole new type thing, to be fair, during the whole Light and Sound theory spiel, a lot of people said that seventeen types is enough. Then we got Fairy. I do agree that the Fairy-type is still fairly new (I swear that's not a pun, trust me), but I want to do the new types for fan games that I'm planning to do, NOT as speculation for the future. The ???-type (or Problem-type as I call it) is just impossible to put in official lore and contexts due to it's design, and I believe we got our answer for the Sound-types future in the shape of Noivern. I still believe that to this day, due to it being a bat and lurking in the night, it's a double play on words and design when it's literally the "nail in the coffin" for Sound-types.

As for the other things:

- I agree with Shedinja. All the way. 1 HP doesn't help it though...

- The way you put it actually makes the Ghost/Fairy typing pretty balanced. It's basically the same situation with Eelektross. It's zero weaknesses seems like a dream come true, until you see it's number of resistances and it's Speed.

- I can see your point with Psychic being weak to Dragon, it is a necessity in this case, I just find it funny that now the almighty and powerful Mewtwo will truly cower in fear to the true overload and master of our realm, Sir Goomy.

- I may be alone on this, but I actually don't see the Fairy-typing in Mimikkyu. I do love it's design though, it's creepy and adorable. The perfect combination.

- I did a double check on the type combinations, and there is one other type combo that should be looked at: Normal/Ghost. By this type chart it also has no weaknesses, but it has resistances to Poison, Bug, Steel and Fairy, has three immunities to Normal, Fighting and Ghost, and it's two stab options are pretty threatening. The only solace I can see is that the only way to get this typing in battle is with Trick-or-Treat, but the typing could possibly appear in the future.

Hey, since we're in the discussion for type chart changes, could you take a look at my version? It's not balanced number-wise, like you did, but I really tried to take other factors into account, like moves and abilities and what not (for example, this type chart assumes that all entry hazards now have a 5-turn limit, which I also plan to do in the fan games), so I'd love some sort of feedback from it. And yes, the Sound and Problem types are there, because of reasons previously stated. I will say this though, the ???-type does seem broken on the outset, but that type is planned to have a very low average stat total. Like, legendary ???-types would probably have stat totals like 500-535. The offensive coverage is also planned to be vast, but uncommon. A.k.a. most Pokemon can learn them, but only about two or three, at the most.

Here it is: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1j3MT2DwS_wmG4iI0OW65Woc1lBYy1i6pRApVwty6gfw/edit#gid=184606815

Edited July 18, 2016 by zarexraze
Misspelled something

[eworm]

Normal/Ghost would, just like Fairy/Ghost, have no weaknesses indeed. So I decided to alter my chart a bit. After much deliberation, those are the changes I implemented, some of which are "going back to normal" actually. Enjoy the chain:

• no longer immune to Fairy, just resistant (-)
  
• now strong against Ghost (+)
  

• now weak to Grass (-)
  
• now strong against Steel (+)
  

• now weak to Ghost (-)
  
• back to not being weak to Dark (+)
  

• back to not being strong against Steel (-)
  
• no longer weak to Bug (+)
  

• no longer strong against Dark (-)
  
• now strong against Ground (+)
  

• now weak to Bug (-)
  
• back to being strong against Poison (+)
  

• back to being weak against Ground (-)
  
• back to not being resisted by Psychic (+)
  

• back to not resisting Poison (-)
  
• back to not being weak to Dragon (+)
  

• back to not being strong against Psychic (-)
  
• no longer ineffective against Fairy, just resisted by it (+)
  

• no longer immune to Dragon, just resistant (-)
  
• no longer ineffective against Grass, just resisted (+)
  

The link in the first post updated with a new PDF.

Now Normal/Ghost and Fairy/Ghost do have a weakness (Grass), while Shedinja doesn't go back to having five. Immunities are made into resistances and the new weakness of Steel is changed from Dark to Ghost. Psychic loses the "weird" Dragon weakness, Grass having an advantage over Ghost is a basic "life vs death" concept and Bug now beats Ground, like I actually wanted from the start, but didn't know how to balance it out.

[ithilelda]

  It is interesting to see that different efforts on balancing the type chart can come to a convergence and I'd like to say good work first! I have a type chart quite similar to yours! However, a perfectly balanced chart may not result in a perfectly balance game. One problem is that the offensive ability and the defensive ability of a type are different things. Another problem is that you can't balance a type without looking at the actual pokemon population and the move pool.

  Let's start by analyzing move pool and then pokemons to see how Fairy comes to its birth. Normal, Fire, Grass, Fighting, Flying and Dragon all have 120 power 100% accuracy moves. Water, Electric, Ice, Poison, Ground, Psychic may also have them but limited to a handful of pokemons, or they only have not so accurate gambler (hydro pump 85%, blizzard 70%, etc.). Thus, a way to counter pokemons of these types is quite a good measure in how OP the type is. Before XY, Normal has Ghost immunity, Fire and Flying are hindered by a popular move I will come to later, and Grass is nowhere near the others with its massive ineffectives (seriously 7 ineffectives out of 18??). It leaves Fighting and Dragon the most devastating attackers. However, Fighting type pokemons aren't that popular because of their general lack of base stats. Dragon was the BIG problem. There are tons of 600s that are dragon, and most of them have attack stats above 120. Consider the fact that Dragon was only resisted by Steel, this had boiled down to the Outrage/Draco meteor war at the end of BW era. Everyone used dragon, and to wall them, you had to use steel, and steel was nonetheless a super type back then (still resisted ghost and dark, 14 resistances out of 17 types, haha great job!). This is the actual reason that Fairy was born with its immunity to dragons. On the otherhand, the problem for Fire and Flying I mentioned earlier, you probably have already guessed, was stealth rock. This stupidly OP entry hazzard kind of banned most fire types from the metagame with the only exception of Blaziken and Heatran. It consequentially added the viability of steel typing again, which is weak to fire and strong against rock (and probably also boosted fighting presence, which is strong against rock too). This is why a nonsense resistance and a nonsense weakness were added to Fire and Fighting when XY released, although I do doubt that Game Freak was playing favorite on Charizard and Blaziken. Fairy's strength to Dark was added purely for Hydreigon, who had no 4x weakness before (there's nothing to do with the dark/ghost perfect typing thing. It doesn't matter how many weaknesses you have. The big problem is how many resistances you have. dark/ghost pokemon really never do well in that area, so they are never too popular). If you have faced a choice specs Hydreigon in BW, you knew what terror meant. Thus, Fairy's typing had solid reasoning except the bug thing (I 100% agree with you. It is a bad joke! U-turn and Scizor is not a Bug problem, it is a pokemon problem!), and I would not nerf it too much besides removing the bug resistance. You could stretch a little bit by adding more weaknesses (I agree well on the weakness to grass), but I would not remove the immunity.

  Of the other types, Dragon is not weak because of the reasons I've mentioned above. Move pool and Pokemon availability should always be considered. I actually nerfed it further. In reality, Azumarill, Diancie and Mawile are quite OP so they should receive a nerf, not dragons receiving a buff. Garchomp, Dragonite, Latios and Hydreigon are cheat buttons for kids, but they should not be so for prepared matchmaker. On the other hand, due to their superior base stat, Dragon could still sweep the entire team if Fairy was beaten up.

  I would also suggest the removal of Ice's weakness to Rock instead of adding other resistances. Stealth Rock IS the main problem. Fire and Flying are strong attackers so it is fair to cut their health in half. Ice barely has good pokemons. The top "Ice" type in use is actually protean Greninja...Greninja is OP because it is the only thing that's valid in OU who could do a STAB ice beam to kill that ubiquitous Landorus-T/Garchomp/Dragonite/Gliscor!

  Moreover, I also felt the same thing that Ghost is pretty hard to balance, so I moved Dark around a little bit to solve the problem that Dark and Ghost are too similar offensively. By doing so, I am incapable of assigning a 4x dark weakness to Aegislash, so I made my decision to give it 4x Ghost. Either way, Giving Aegislash a 4x shouldn't raise too much debate. Everyone knows that it is OP.

  Finally, IMO the water type problem should be solved not by nerfing it, but by actually buffing it's enemy- Electric. The infinitesimal buff is a bad news for Skarmory but not for water type pokemons... I have yet to come up with anything valid as a electric buff. Maybe this thread could serve as the ground for discussion.

Edited December 7, 2016 by ithilelda

[SAHunterMech]

Hello there, old thread but I wanted to reach out and say thanks for trying to tackle this. It's been one of my biggest pet peeves over the years, how some times are just straight up better than others. And don't get me started about the logic - - - I always catch myself going, "Well steel has to be weak to electricity, that just makes sense! Buuuuut nope!" This being said, I don't think perfect balance is achievable, but a better effort can certainly be made than what Game Freak has accomplished so far and you have made the first big strides.

I used your changes (and revisions) as a base for a new chart. I'll say right off the bat that my philosophy is to prioritize fairness over the logic of type interactions; I shuffled some stuff around and made a chart where no dual-types have more than one 4x weakness and the amount of 2x weaknesses in each type, single or dual, is more evenly spread. I plan to make a custom version of Pokémon showdown with this type chart, altered stats, new abilities, new items and alterations to statuses/hazards in an effort to make the game more fun on a competitive level. That also being said, I hold the firm believe that a game that is fun on a competitive level can have that fun trickle down to the casual level too.

[Lucieya]

Your approach to balancing the type chart is intriguing. A lot of thought went into trying to make each type equally viable. The idea of testing this in a ROM hack of XY or ΩRαS is a great way to see how these changes play out in practice.

I highly recommend reviewing the type matchup guide for anyone interested in delving deeper into type matchups. It could offer additional insights and be a valuable resource for refining your balanced type chart.