Gen VI metagame speculation

[wraith89]

I know Tofu, I'm too predictable.

Eh Ice gets swept by Infernape in a mono type battle (okay, so you can Shell Smash Cloyster... but that's OP). Normals don't always due to their sheer versatility. Ice is still threatening offensively, I can guarantee you. I've used Hail teams before, consisting of a lot of Ice Pokemon, but having more than 2 or 3 is less than ideal, unfortunately. I don't see tiers as an absolute way to determine the usefulness of a Pokemon. A lot of NU Pokes, like Victreebel, are actually usable in higher tiers. But X being outclassed by Y doesn't make a Pokemon any worse than it is (Venusaur outclasses Victreebel, for example, but Victreebel can still function just as well and has some tricks up its sleeves like Sucker Punch). Some OU Pokemon would actually fit fine in the lower tiers, like Tentacruel or Gastrodon, but are just up there because they're "overused". I know that any other way of measuring Pokemons' mettle would be subjective and arbitrary, so I know why tiers are used in competitive metagaming, but I still don't see it as an end all to measure a Pokemon's worth. It doesn't work that way. Granted, some will always fail, like Kricketune or Watchog and the likes, without extreme support, but generally, all of them have strengths and weaknesses. Shedinja for example, also works much better in the unrestricted tier while doing bad in the constrained environments like NU where there are more things that would kill are common, such as Flareon or Mascargo or something. Also, the way they list counters, like, X can counter Y with Hidden Power Z. Like, what? Hidden Power isn't even a reliable method outside of simulators, and I loathe it when that's used as an argument for how one Pokemon can have perfect coverage or something. Yes, tiers can sometimes help you see, but also, there's those confounding variables. Aron was used much more than Aggron due to its cheesy Sturdy + Shell Bell + Sandstorm + Endeavor strategy, but does that make Aron better than Aggron? I don't see it that way. Vanilluxe, for example, is quite predictable with what it does. 95 Atk was put in the wrong stat, with little movepool to abuse that with, it's obviously using its 110 SpA to run random Ice Beam/Flash Cannon/Signal Beam and possibly Autotomise to raise that 79 speed of its. Oops, blocked by Flareon. Most of the usable Ices are mixed types, of course, and owe it more to their other typing than the Ice, which is a hinderance to a lot of them. There are notable exceptions, especially when they're offensively oriented. Offensive Pokemon are favoured in this generation, or if they're defensive with ways of boosting themselves to obscene levels (Cloyster). Normals, like Togekiss, at least does what they're supposed to do. But comparing Ice and Normals is comparing apples and oranges: doesn't work that way though. I don't see why we're doing this heh.

I see them trying to improve Ice types by adding new moves like Freeze Dry or ability like Refrigerate, but, what worries me is that they're tacked on to new Pokemon. A recent interview said new Pokemon are given priority with new moves like that, which worries me as well, as some slow Rock/Ice Pokemon clearly looking defensive and not too offensive is getting both otherwise great salvagable ability, but is going to get LOL'd on by Fighters and Steels, both who are very common and will continue to be common. I hope Freeze Dry gets great distribution, and some improvements will be given to Ice types, but you can see they gave Electrics and Grass some add-on inner abilities like immunity to paralysis or powder/spore moves, but nothing done to Ice type as a whole. That just worries me is all. Too soon to tell, of course, but Ice still stands as one of the worst typings out there.

Let's not talk about the low class citizens. They're Heatran-feed anyways. (jk you know we love you NU Pokemon). But we do need to move on before this drags on any further. I wonder how the whole Fairy / Fighting / Steel / Ghost / Dark / Bug / Poison / Psychic relations would work, as those were probably the most touched. Out of all of those, have you noticed Psychics didn't get a notable buff? A resistance to Fairy would have helped them, to be honest. Now Gardevoir can beat Gallade.

That Fletching just scared away your female Mega Mewtwo

[Toffeuy]

There's never going to be an absolute measure to a pokemon's strength. The whole concept of "absolute" is a mathematical one. When we're looking at a qualitative measure such as strength/usefulness/whatever you call it, there's always going to be an uncertainty, which in this case is rather large considering the details we are missing and the fact that there are varying factors. So the most appropriate idea would be to opt for the best available solution, which atm is tier classifications. Maybe it's just a matter of conflicting perspectives, you have your point and I have mine. I can tell you that indeed I would consider Aron a better pokemon than Aggron (at least in respect to competitive battling), however ridiculous you think that may be. So yes, let's jsut get over this already.

Bugs, I don't think would be affected very greatly, though I do have some doubts on that since steel may rise in use. Bugs might not get a realistic advantage despite resisting poison considering there aren't many especially damaging poison moves (but that may change) nor are there many bulky bugs. Steel might suffer an overall nerf since it is more of a defensive typing and it now no longer resists ghost + dark. Maybe Togekiss can take over the para-flinch trade from Jirachi? Ghost seems like it's gaining a nice buff as the darks may be controlled by fairies. Psychics seem like they would be able to survive any environment, so I didn't think they needed a buff. They always have great coverage moves and nice stats. Maybe Psychics gain a role by shooing off poisons for fellow fairies? I mean, logically psychics and fairies seem like a nice bond right? Not so sure about poison, poison always seemed like the oddball to me. They're not really known for their offence, and they're not really known for their defence, but they seem to work quite well usually. Meh, idk.

Haha, yeah, but that fletchling won't be long-lived, that was just me brushing up my PS skills after a long inactivity. I was experimenting effects and halfway through I ended up with a picture that seemed too nice to be deleted so i'm just using it as a temporary sig.

[wraith89]

I know your reasoning, and it is sound, but I can't really get 100% into it. It works to some extent, as some Pokemon's overall power, like Terrakion or Salamence, are quite high and are consistently useful so are indeed overused. It works for a lot of it, but generally, it's not possible to solely use tiers to analyse what Pokemon are better just because one is NU and one is RU. It's a controlled kind of thing, really, as they're basically restrictions to what can be used and what cannot be. Some Pokemon are clearly overpowered (Mewtwo and his cronies), but they were designed to be so. But for others... eh. It gets messy down there (i.e. lower tiers), and the tiers continually shift over time. Nidoqueen was NU and then RU not too long ago before they thought she was broken and bumped her up with her boyfriend in UU. I was upset to discover Dusclops better than Dusknoir, but that one I can understand. Regardless, you won't get much mileage out of only using tiers for this. Forget PEMN, forget stupid gimmicky things like FEAR Aron and whatnot, that's not the perspective we should be promoting. Not to mention wifi battling and simulator battles are completely different. Generally, Wifi battles are more of "anything goes", although Flat rules exist: simulator battles are regulated, built-in freeze and sleep clause are activated, and one can adjust their Hidden Power to whatever they want. Also there's the whole double battle thing where some Pokemon work better in doubles than singles.

Heracross has been totally shafted thanks to the inclusion of Fairies randomly resisting his dual STABs, further pushing him into obscurity. Unless they give him access to Steel and Poison moves, which I guess will find its way on to it, but will get walled by Ghosts (it already was anyways, as Night Slash barely did anything). Bugs don't resist Poison: they're neutral to it. Bugs already suffer ineffectiveness to Fighting, Poison, Ghost and Steel, but still hit Dark and Psychic super effectively. I do see the whole circle here, but they forgot to do that one thing: do something about Psychics so the circle would further enclose. Or have Ghost and Psychic BOTH resist Fairy so they won't be totally left out. Psychic's problem is they're still Pursuit weak, and still further walled by the likes of Darks and Steels. True, Alakazam is quite OP, but they'd do well with some modification with Fairy. Psychic as a defensive typing hinders a lot of Pokes, though the resist to Fighting helps out.

Poison as a typing is great defensively. Sure they're weak to EQ, but a lot of them have ways to counteract it, and are still weak to Psychic, but that isn't seen as much. However, that key resistance to Fighting, immunity to Poison as a status, resistance to Grass and Bug, all go a long way to Poisons. They're not so great offensively, but they do have huge neutral targets, but can't hit Steels. They can kill Fairies now too, which is a great buff. I'm unsure though, but I believe Poisons will gain acknowledgement further as defensive pivots, eating Toxic Spikes, setting them up, and chasing away Fairies (Gardevoir's Psychic will still kill them unless they're Skuntank and Drapion, who are hit by Fairy STAB).

Dark is now a great offensive typing: it traded away its Steel ineffectiveness for Fairy, though they don't generally learn Steel or Poison moves to complement their Dark offence. A + 2 LO Sucker Punch from Absol can actually OHKO Scizor with SR, so they don't stand a chance. Metagross and Bronzong and Jirachi now have an unfortunately Dark and Ghost weakness, but resist Fairy thankfully. Steels will still see a lot of usage, despite their two weakness to Dark and Ghost gone. But I think they should have tried to differentiate Dark and Ghost more as offensive typing: have one not effective on Fairy and the other good against it, for example. Ghosts will now have a hayday, especially Gengar with that beastly typing. It will actually find reason to run STAB Sludge Bomb, which is stronger than Shadow Ball, and doesn't have to use Focus -Oops I missed- Blast to get coverage. Scizor may find itself 2HKOd by Gengar as it switches in. I'm unsure, but this doesn't look like a Psychic's game to me: they've missed out this gen (unless you're Mewtwo), but some outstanding Pokes like Jirachi, Reuniclus or Alakazam still remain.

I cannot read that little sphere thing Fletching is holding. What does it state?

[Toffeuy]

There's really too much to consider that my head is blowing just thinking about this. On one hand you have all the advantages one type gets due to changes, then you have to consider the changes of every other single type and how abundance of use would be affected, and then whether the change in abundance would itself become an advantage, and then how this advantage would affect use, and then use back to advantage, it's like a cyclic system with random branches going out at random intervals that it's completely messing with me.

There's a point I made before about the random nature of competitive players' response being the key factor, and after considering that mindblow earlier, it's become especially prevalent that it would indeed be what most affects the changes in the Gen VI metagame. Because use and type advantages themselves are directly correlated, and that type advantages aren't subject to random audience interpretation, it is again all chance; who sets the trend, how influential a trend is, etc. I hate to mention this chance thing again because we are trying to reach something conclusive but fact is what in theory may seem completely correct in practice could be absolutely wrong. For example, i'm still convinced that most Fairies would probably only be defensive threats but no-one, including me would be surprised if that wasn't the case.

But despite this, i'll still make the attempt at prediction, after all, I guess the word "speculation" in the title of this thread makes up for everything I just blabbered on about. Heracross can be useful in countering the rise in steels, so I wouldn't discount him straight away, but that leads to a decrease in steels, which leads to a decease in fighting, which leads to an increase in steel and so that just brings us back to my previous point T_T

I noticed that many Fighting pokemon have access to Poison Jab so that in a way may provide some leverage against Fairies. A lot of them learn Bullet Punch as well, but that move isn't really threatening unless it's by Scizor.

We might be overlooking Fire's involvement in the change. Fairy -> Rise in Steel -> Rise in Fire -> Controls Fairy + Steel? Fire isn't known for its defence but being able to switch in safely on a Fairy and deal the offence it is reputed for would be excellent for wallbreaking and preventing a sweep.

I don't usually have any problems dealing with pursuit when using a Psychic, considering most of them learn focus blast anyway (yes, I know what you're going to say, a few learn aura sphere though). Latios is a bit of an exception, since I always run choice on it. *Opponent sends in Tyranitar* *Uses thunderbolt to do 15% dmg anyway*

Wouldn't having Ghost resist Fairies be a bit too much? Gengar would be all the more OP, it is infamous for being a glass cannon but i'm tipping that it would be able to survive a neutral fairy hit and 1HKO back with sludge bomb. That does stop fairies a bit, and maybe that's what you're getting at but then Gengar as an individual pokemon would be OP.

Ah, poison, it's funny i've never looked at them that way, defensively that is. Possibly because the likes of Gengar and Venusaur have overshadowed that thought. It's interesting to note that Toxicroak may have great use in the new metagame. It has one of the more damaging Poison Jabs and it has Sucker Punch to counter Psychics. What wouldn't surprise me though, is if they decided to give most Fairies access to the move Psychic, in which case Toxicroak will cry and heal itself with dry skin ? Maybe it's just me but when thinking Fairies I think magic, and Psychic is as magic as it gets.

Btw, the drama I was mentioning before was Journey to the West. It's funny that when you google translate fairy into Japanese, you get 妖精, but when you go Chinese, you get 仙女, and these two have almost opposite connotations associated with them.

Lol, I did not consider that when making the ball but here's a little clue for you:

It'd help if you knew a little carbon chemistry.

[wraith89]

I'm being short here, as I don't like typing on the iPhone, but I will try. I want a Fairy Cresselia. Then we'll talk defensive.

Heracross will still hit Steels effectively, I guess, but I hope it has new toys to play with so it can actually do something about Fairies.. maybe. I really liked its Guts abusive sets and I hope it won't be completely put down by the likes of Lucario and Scizor, both outdoing the poor bug in many ways.

I think the resistance to Fairy was just tacked on to Fire to help them get more screentime: they will never be known as defensive Pokemon and it's just a bonus to help Reshiram not become weak to it, I guess (though Kyurem is now weak to... pink stuff. Ew). Fire was used to keep an offensive presence, though they are certainly MUCH better at defence than Ice Pokemon ever will be (sigh). It really helps Heatran a lot though: it'll probably be the premier Fairy killer (any Fairies not named Azumarill, that is, unless they pull a Bellossom and Azumarill miraculously loses its Fairy typing).

Those 40 BP moves in general are terrible without STAB and are only used for priority. Unfortunately, lots of Fighters don't even have access to Mach Punch. At least those with Bullet Punch can strike holes on Fairies now. But lol @ awkward Poison Jabs. Going to see a lot of them on Conkeldurr and such. Toxicroak will have a fun time with STAB Poison Jab, but will probably get manhandled, because as you said, Fairies being magical may learn Psychic moves, and they resist Sucker Punch and Vacuum Wave. Grr. I used to think of magical supernatural Pokes as Psychics and Ghosts, as they learned Psychic moves generally (along with the random Umbreon and Murkrow line, as Dark might count alongside the other two). I do like how they incorporated the types in so they'd be effective against each other. But it had better not completely be, well, outdone by Fairies and Steel. Because right now, I only see Fairy + Steel dominating (Mega Mawile!).

Eh I just didn't like Sableye and Spiritomb suddenly getting a weakness. That was stupid really. Of course, Gamefreak's favoured Electric types still remain up there, as Eelektross remains the only Pokemon (yet) with no weaknesses. OF COURSE (though it's not particularly super powerful). Most defensive Ghosts anyways, since they are devoid of life (they are ghosts after all), have low HP to offset their high Defences. Also I'd like the two types to be linked, along with Psychic: in fact bring the whole lot in! Then it'll be one major circle that will keep people on their toes. I wish they'd done more than just make Fairy into this uber offensive/defensive typing that just may take the place of Dragons and Fighting types of the past. These guys, admittedly, DID see the rise in Steel types that would consequently appear, so they did the right thing in removing Ghost and Dark resistance. I still wish they did something for Psychics though. Being Pursuit weak still keeps them in check, especially from your usual Pursuit/Sucker Punch trapsters (Drapion is going to have a fun time with STAB Poison Jab to toy around with Fairies as well).

Ah, 서유기 (西遊記)? I do not like Google translate, but Koreans/Japanese follow traditional Chinese characters (漢字), pronounced "Hanja" in Korean and "Kanji" in Japanese, though Kanji does modify some and turns it into simplified mode. We all have the same terminology, but different pronunciations, if you may. But mainland PRC, of course, has to use Mao's 1953 Simplified commie form, which I don't really like. I prefer the old regular scripts, and I'm a bit conservative on the matter, as I sometimes use Chinese characters to transcribe Korean words (most Koreans purely use only Korean script Hangul these days). Oh 仙女... we also use that too (선녀, heavenly (idk if that's the right English word for it?) woman, though 仙 is made out of 人 and 山, human and mountain), which of course are exclusively female beings, so that wouldn't work. 요정 (妖精) is more general, I believe, and even includes mischievous elves and stuff.

Yes, Tofu Coffee. I can see it spells out your name. But the sequencing is funny.

Also revealed...

MEGA CHARIZARD X? It's actually got the typing we all wanted: Fire/Dragon! And it doesn't even have Levitate... it has its physical attack boosted, and has an ability that increases that even more. What? Okay, Ground weakness. Eww. But are they really doing the two version exclusive Mega Evolutions now? Also, why are they only giving special treatment to Fire starters anyways? I mean, I'm sure they'll do the rest, but like... wow. Anyways, I think it is more aesthetically pleasing than the other one, though I'm unsure how useful this one will be. He looks powerful, all right, and Swords Dance/Dragon Dance/Belly Drum may actually be useful, but before he comes in, you still need to remove Stealth Rocks, as it will STILL chip off 50% of its HP before it transforms. Unless, of course, SR was nerfed this generation (please please so I can use my weaksauce Articuno with the movepool size of a Caterpie properly!) I just realised Mega Blaziken also had its shiny's colours... I wonder what Mega Charizard's other colours would be, unless of course, Megas do NOT have a shiny colour. I know we all laughed at Charizard's battling prowess for a long time (I didn't), but I think Charizard may now get the recognition it deserves. The other one is still useful for weather wars, especially since Sun is the least detrimental to a normal non-weather team, it can keep away Weather Pokemon and actually destroy them if used properly. This one will kill everything with its sheer force (no, not the ability). Looking forward to this!

Please Gamefreak allow us to trade Mega Stones. I may get X but I want Mega Mewtwo Y because I like its playstyle and looks better

I just realised though, with the diverging Mega Stones, it will keep people on their toes, regarding whether the Pokemon is a regular Pokemon, Mega Evo X or Mega Evo Y. How awesome is that?

[Find__Tab]

I'm just going to ask... There's been a lot of information leaked, but none of it is "official". They're all pretty much true, though. Final Evo of the starters, some new Pokémon (including that one luchador bird that was confirmed) and some other stuff. Are we going to talk about them or are we going to only talk about the "official" stuff (to avoid spoilers and other similar things?)

I mean, I'm not sure if everyone here would be okay with the starter's final evos being ruined for them, although I'm personally okay with it.

EDIT: Waiiiiit. So apparently this leaked information is from Canada, where it's supposedly already been released?

Yeah, this stuff is official then. Will PO or Showdown or whatever comes next be soon, then? I'd be interested in seeing the meta.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Find__Tab
Update

[Toffeuy]

At first sight I thought M Charizard X looked way better than Y, but then if you watch the

, its wings are too small !!!! I hope this is just a distortion in the game sprite and not the actual design. Small wings and a large body work for I guess stuff which are intended to be cute, but not that supposedly "badass" design of the rest of its body T_T

I'm not so keen on the three different versions of a pokemon yet, sometimes less is more. It seems a bit messy but maybe it won't turn out that way.

Though M Charizard Y's ability seems more attractive, i'm a lot more interested in X. Regular Charizard is more of a special attacker but M Charizard X seems to be almost purely physical, it does after all get a significant attack boost and also an ability to augment that single characteristic (Source). I'm intrigued by the strategy mega evos might add to the metagame. Because you can choose when to mega evo, that can mean an instant change between stats which are beneficial for entirely different conditions. The very thing that limits Meloetta's usefulness is its inability to transform at command without using a turn, but with mega evos, this isn't the case (but this isn't entirely the same thing since Meloetta can revert back and Relic Song actually does decent damage). That means Mixed Attackers can come about without needing both decent Attack and Special Attack to begin with, since the dominance in Attack or Special Attack can switch so easily between transformations, with Charizard -> M Charizard X possibly being the perfect example. Maybe we should discuss the prospects of mega evos in terms of the controlled timing of their transformation.

Other things are needed for Mega Evolution to succeed, and those secrets will be explained later!

When a Pokémon is holding its Mega Stone, the Mega Ring and Mega Stone resonate, triggering Mega Evolution. It is said that the strong bond between a Pokémon and its Trainer also plays an important role in making these two items resonate.

Source

Still not sure if we could even choose when to mega evo, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few restrictions like first turn only or full HP only, maybe even full happiness with the pokemon? (the "bond" they are talking about?)

[Tbird]

Charizard x is goin to be a beast, Heatran will be the only thing able to resist its STABs, and even then its got high speed and EQ, if we can still class base 100 as high. And what's this? No more 4x SR weakness.

You know Charizard is about to unleash unholy hell on all tht once mocked him.

This gon be good.

[LEGOanimal22]

Even though Mega Charizard X doesn't lose its Ground and Rock weaknesses, it is still a killer. Its new ability, Tough Claws, will be great for STAB Dragon and Fire physical moves. Flare Blitz and Dragon Rush will be great for this murderer.

[Toffeuy]

Charizard x is goin to be a beast, Heatran will be the only thing able to resist its STABs, and even then its got high speed and EQ, if we can still class base 100 as high. And what's this? No more 4x SR weakness.

You know Charizard is about to unleash unholy hell on all tht once mocked him.

This gon be good.

Well unless pokemon can maintain their mega evos after switching out, it will still suffer from 4x SR weakness, and that's assuming it has already mega evolved once before SR was even put up. And there might be fairy/type which resists fire type of pokemon so Heatran probably wouldn't be the only one.

[Find__Tab]

Dual typed moves are confirmed, it's not just freeze whatever.

Elemental Punches are part fighting, Solar Beam is grass/fire, etc.

I'd like to point out that Elemental Punches no longer have a reason to exist and solar beam loses type coverage on EVERYTHING. Seriously, you may as well make it a normal type move. Neutral on water, grass, bug, rock, steel. What's the point?

Dual typed moves only get one STAB though, I've heard it's the "labeled" type, though. As an example, Fire Punch will be listed as a fire type move, and only fire types will get STAB from it, even if it's part fighting.

Some rumours are that Stealth Rock does 10% health to neutral, meaning it's 5%, 10%, 20% and 40% - It can no longer 2HKO things. I'm pretty happy about this, although they'll probably annoy me again by giving it part ground typing or something stupid. Yeah, I know it's not "all" the moves that are getting a second type, but it still annoys me.

Auto-Weather is (again rumoured, I don't have the game personally) to be limited to 5 turns like normal weather moves. I actually like this one. Yveltal's stats are mentioned to be "about the same as Kyrum's".

Looks like Yvetal's base stats are almost identical to Kyurem's. It probably doesn't have any EVs in that screen shot since it's at a nice round level and doesn't seem to have any experience gained towards level 51.

Yveltal has 145/145/88 minimum offenses and like 125/88/115 minimum bulk. Im obviously off because with these mins i get 708 bst and asumming those are mins ivs in reality it will be lower for 680 bst

"yveltal is 130/130/95/130/95/100"

More Mega Pokémon, including a Gyarados that literally looks like it was fused with Magikarp. Seriously, it's Gyarados' head on Magikarp's body. Except massive, I guess.

Starter final evo's:

There's more info, but this is all I can be bothered to type up before going bed. I hate most of these features, but I'll get over it. At least it looks like they're trying to balance things.

EDIT: "and Magneton knows a move called Electric terrain, basically a electric type rain dance."

WE GOT A NEW WEATHER EVERYBODY!

I'm wondering what it is - my guess is slow speed on everything but electric and ground, but it could be something like shadow tag too. Hard to guess

Oh, and it'll probably boost the power (and maybe accuracy?) of electric moves. ...Maybe provide temporary entry hazards?

Edited October 7, 2013 by Find__Tab

[LEGOanimal22]

Auto-Weather is (again rumoured, I don't have the game personally) to be limited to 5 turns like normal weather moves. I actually like this one. Yveltal's stats are mentioned to be "about the same as Kyrum's".

This better not be true. This will ruin my rain team

EDIT: "and Magneton knows a move called Electric terrain, basically a electric type rain dance."

WE GOT A NEW WEATHER EVERYBODY!

A possibility for an Electric boost? Dedenne could definitely benefit from this move.

[Tbird]

I've had a quick look through all the, still fully unconfirmed, leaks and if in 10 or so days they turn out to be true I dare say we truly are going to have a massive rethink on what constitutes as uber. Now, Gengar and aero dactyl are your glass canons that hit hard but not hard enough to be stand alone sweepers, just sort of softeneners. they both don't need any more speed so if they follow trend and get a boost to say 130+ in special / attack, they're going to be absolute monsters. They'll both still have problems with priority, that is unless they OHKO whatever switches in, or throw up a sub as to choose the right move to spell doom with.

I think OU will feel a massive massive MASSIVE power creep, and the lower tiers will be full of the has-beens that don't get a boost, thus making them much more diverse... Either that or ÜBER will be massive this gen which'll pretty much go against the point of that tier.

Then there'll also be the anti-meta teams that don't use megas just to screw with those that do. I think that that fat alone could be what saves the megas from getting the boot.

As for the dual typed moves, I'm excited so long as they are done right. The right way to do it would (in my opinion of course) would be to apply effectiveness of the secondary typing and ignoring the resistances. Otherwise like previously stated every move will just be neutral. Which'll be shit.

They coul also spin it so that the secondary typing doesn't gain the full super effective boost. I do believe you can recode ROMs in a way that makes effectiveness be as low as only 1.1 effective. In any case if its not currently doable with the current and previous gens (which I'm sure it is) I'm sure Nintendo could do that now. It'd be good because it would put somewhat of a cap on how much damage can be dealt, for instance Ferrothorn would be 6x weak to fire punch, and they'd be strong enough even without stab. 75 + stab = 112.5 x 6 = 675. That's stupid. But again, even if that is the case it might be needed to somewhat mitigate how powerful other pokes are going to be. Fight fire with fire and all that.

I guess we'll see in just over a week!

[wraith89]

Guys, I would like to remind all of you that any leaks or non-released official information should STAY IN SPOILERS and write a disclaimer before you even do so. Also do keep the thread relevant with competitive battling.

That being said, here's an observation I have made so far (warning spoilers):

Most of the Pokemon introduced so far are all slowmons with some incredible bulk, particularly special defence. Most of the Fairies introduced so far do not have remarkable base stats like Dragons, but are still usable regardless. I guess that is their way of "balancing", but a lot of old Pokemon got retconnned. Also, Togepi is confirmed to be PURE FAIRY. Yes people, Togekiss has a high chance of becoming Fairy/Flying. Unfortunately, they're still making Ice Pokemon slow bulkymons with super specialised spreads. Ick.

Flying Press is the only confirmed dual typed move so far, only on one Pokemon. It is listed as Fighting, but is also Flying. I hope that doesn't create some crazy effectiveness against things like Abomasnow or Scrafty. Yikes.

It looks like the Mega Pokemon will have a higher effect to the metagame than most of the newly introduced Pokemon, which isn't many. They are also trying to make more bulky Pokemon just to counteract the everything-hitting-too-hard Gen V Pokemon. New "weather" effect includes Electric Field, where Electric moves get boosted (they're continuing to boost Electrics, unpredictably, as they really love their Pikachu), and a Mist Weather was also added (I'm not sure if it is a move or not), which halves Dragon damage if you are grounded. Yes folks, they REALLY want to kill your precious dragons. And it also works as Safeguard, except for both sides of the field.

Moonblast is confirmed to be the 95 BP/100% accuracy move... and it is said to lower Special Attack. Perhaps 10%? I hope to God it isn't 100%, or else that is incredibly broken.

Edited October 7, 2013 by wraith89

[Find__Tab]

I'm just going to ask... There's been a lot of information leaked, but none of it is "official". They're all pretty much true, though. Final Evo of the starters, some new Pokémon (including that one luchador bird that was confirmed) and some other stuff. Are we going to talk about them or are we going to only talk about the "official" stuff (to avoid spoilers and other similar things?).

Sorry about that Wraith. I didn't get an answer before so I just decided to roll with it. Edited and spoilered.

Will try and keep that in mind in the future.

Anyways, there's been a

ghost type move called "Trick or Treat" revealed. It's essentially a ghost type Soak. I can't really see it being useful - everything is either too frail to get any use out of it, or would rather keep a slot spare for recovery/status infliction. Spiritomb is the only exception to this that I can think of, since he's a rapid spin blocker and gets Pursuit. I feel like he could be pretty handy on a stall team thanks to this new niche.

[Tbird]

Yesss that would be pretty cool for pursuit trapping. More so in lower tiers though, I feel. Because the usage of it would always make it reactive to spinning. Unless their designated spinner can outright defeat him, they'll switch and you'll treat someone else with a ghost typing, which they might not mind so much, think about Snorlax switching in, its going to love not being weak to fighting anymore. Though, I guess anything with a ghost typing is going to be scared shitless of pursuit/ sucker punch.

On a side note I can't really see the point in spoilers as given the nature of this thread people will know what they are getting to when they open it. I will edit the OP to mention that the following posts contain spoilers. If that can't be gleaned from the title already.

[wraith89]

The reason I said that is because some people still want to speculate and post but do not wish to get spoiled with new information just yet. It looks odd to have a whole thread with spoilers, but it should be in effect until the actual game is released, which isn't too far from now. Regularly officially released information can still stay outside of spoilers however. Though that can be reflected in the title atm and make separate spoiler-free/spoiler thread, which is rather pointless atm because most people do in-fact, indulge themselves with spoilers. But the fact some people who don't want to spoiler themselves DO exist, I have no choice but to take this precaution.

Ghost Soak is much better than regular Soak, as Ghosts are effective against Ghosts, though regular Soak allows Steels to get Poison-stalled and all (before they switch). But that was it: we didn't see Soak very often except in rare Alomomola sets or if I for some reason wanted to hit things super-effectively with a Shock Wave Pelipper. Lol. Trick-or-Treat... I can imagine Gengar getting it, or perhaps oddly, Darkrai. Spiritomb would benefit that with Pursuit/Sucker Punch trapping. What's even more fun is against Curse users, like Snorlax. Use it, and watch their Curse become the Ghost version which cuts their HP to 50%... heh heh, and then hit them with a Ghost move (I don't think Shadow Ball would OHKO after the 50% HP drop on Snorlax, however, but will still do major damage). Not ideal when your Pokemon is a stallerish type, but for offensive variants of Gengar (which is 99% of them anyways) it would make taking down your foes a lot easier (why run Focus Miss anymore?). Trick or Treat on a Scizor switch-in and it's going to eat a STAB SE Shadow Ball while it loses its STAB on Bullet Punch, which means it'll no longer do > 99% on Gengar. While Gamefreak DID say they are going to prioritise the new Pokemon for new moves, let's hope some of the oldmons get these as well.

There is also a Grass type Soak (Forest's Curse), which I don't see as much help because Grass typing gives a whole ton of benefits and Grass moves are NVE against each other, unless you are Abomasnow (please get it: it's a tree like Trevenant too!). I hope Abomasnow can get it, and watch Mega Abomasnow Ice Shard its opposition to death after a Forest Curse (lol Infernape). A lot of mindgames happening, I can see.

A new Fairy move called Dazzling Gleam is revealed to be the Fairy Gym's TM, which is a Special 80 BP/100% accuracy Fairy move, with no side effects. Yes, it is odd for those 80 BP move to have no side-effect, and the fact that it is outclassed by Moonblast, but I'm believing Moonblast is much more limited in distribution (I will cry if Lunatone does not get it because Fairies) and Dazzling Gleam is more widespread, most likely. And no, Ampharos, for some reason, cannot learn that either. I want to see its Korean/Japanese name to see what it should be. Eh. Only a handful of new moves were revealed, btw, like around 20. And small amount of new Pokemon, like 69 of them (do not comment on the number, I know it's disappointing and, erm, you know...). A few Mega-evos were revealed, but I am pretty sure there are a lot more than what's been revealed so far. I'd be really surprised if Lapras and the likes did not have it. Most Megastones atm seem disappointingly easy to obtain from NPCs and the likes, though Aerodactyl's stone was found in a random cave with Rock Smash (that's how they should be obtained!). And yes, they REALLY did give Charizard TWO Mega-evos while leaving Venusaur and Blastoise with only ONE, yes ONE Mega-Evolution. And some are getting no Megas, of course. Fanboyism strikes again people!

Sylveon was also revealed to evolve via max affection in Poke-amie. Oh boy... imagine simulators with the Amie implementations for moar hax. Though I imagine some specific Pokemon get specific quirks... like I don't see Snorlax getting much evasion boost but maybe critical hit resistance or status shrugging, while things like Froslass or Fearow would get more evasion rate or critical chance or something. Something to think about. It did say the trainer did blow on Sylveon or something to get rid of the burn status or something (heh what), and I was hoping this effect only works in-game, but I'm sure they'll do something and allow it on Wifi. That being said, do you think Brightpowder and the evasion abilities will be allowed in the metagame again? Superevasion Garchomp will be annoying to deal with, perhaps getting it banned once more (unless there's an Ice Aura Sphere, but I doubt that). This will get interesting. Oh, and the Ability changing item is confirmed to be a battle facility item for 200 BP, which seems to toggle between the NORMAL abilities a Pokemon has (no word of DW abilities yet). It's also possible that some Pokemon will receive a second hidden ability as well, perhaps for "balance" measures (Snow Cloak Articuno doesn't work, geez).

One of the more interesting Pokemon revealed is Aegislash, the final form of Honedge and Duoblade. It no longer has No Guard, unfortunately, but it has a unique ability that involves form changing, as you can see with its nomenclature, it has an Aegis Form and a Slash Form (unofficial names, I'm making it up), just fancy names for Shield and a Sword form. Shield form is tanky while Sword form is offensive (no need to really say anything). However, the way to trigger it is by using relevant moves to switch forms (ex: use an attack to switch to Slash form while using defensive moves like Iron Defence or Protect to become Shield form). You'd think the gimmick is odd, but wait until you see its signature shield move, King's Shield. It works like Protect (yes it has priority), except anyone using a Contact Move against it will have their attack HARSHLY lowered (meaning -2 Attack), meaning you can see this abused often. Weavile isn't going to pursuit trap this with that move, while a potentially fatal STAB Iron Head renders it ineffective. Run King's Shield, switch to tank form, set up Swords Dance, and then go unleash its STABs (or Sacred Sword) and you will most likely see this Pokemon often thanks to its unique typing and ability. Yes, it is weak to Ghost and Dark, but between King's Shield and Swords Dance and the possibility of two high powered attacks, this thing will be a major force to be reckoned with. Unfortunately, it suffers that 4 moveslot syndrome, so you'd have to choose wisely, as without Swords Dance, it won't be sweeping, and without Sacred Sword, Heatran will run all over it. It has priority in the form of Shadow Sneak, and it does learn Autotomise though. Yes, beware of Garchomp's EQ, as a CB Chomp will OHKO Aegislash, though a - 2 will only 2HKO. The weaknesses to Fire/Ground/Ghost/Dark still checks it, so it is far from broken. Yet still, an interesting Pokemon with an actual functioning Zen Mode (whoever thought of Darmanitan's DW ability and how it triggers... beats me. I hope that gets fixed too!).

Also Talonflame is supposedly a mixed attacker with crazy speed. Though its attack power is quite underwhelming, some speculate in the 80s or 70s, it gains Brave Bird and Flare Blitz, two high powered STAB moves. Its ability is Flame Body, however. I guess this is GF's way of balancing: no moar Haxorusmons but either fast and average attack mons or slow bulkymons. Eh. Please let there be a MegaPidgeot please because its stats aren't doing it justice.

[Tbird]

Can I get some sauce with that please Wraithykins?

[wraith89]

There's some hotsauce for you. Much too hot for birds to handle, unfortunately. Not sure about Tee-burds though.

A lot of these information is leaked from the somethingawful forums (a pay to view/register boards) and 4chan by the name of Kanpachi and Josh. We've even seen Yvetal's theorised stats from Kanpachi, and seemingly its stats are similar to Kyurem's, with mixed attacking prowess and high HP, but defences and speed lingering in 90s, or 95. Its signature Oblivion Wing is 80 BP Flying move that drains over half HP (only Draining Kiss is 100% of damage HP restored, because you know, Fairies, and Gamefreak wanting to break them).

Some of the info is discussed here in Smogon's thread, so indulge yourself (or be utterly disappointed):

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pok%C3%A9mon-xy-leaks.3489007/

[Find__Tab]

Remember when I said that weather abilities

only lasted 5 turns now? Well somebody found a smooth rock, which apparently doubles the turns sandstorm lasts if you're holding it. So 10 turns for Hippopotas/Hippowdon. They haven't found a heat rock or found any other weathers (besides Mega-Charizard-Drought). Oh, and switching in and out doesn't reset the counter - if you switch Smooth Hippo in (cool name right there) sand will last 10 turns. Switching him out and then back in doesn't reset the turn counter. Huh. I kinda like this debuff. I wonder if it'll matter at all, considering the massive power creep I expect to happen.

[Tbird]

I like this a lot. Weather teams are fun, but it can't rain forever metaphorically and literally speaking. I did like the good old days where playing weather was high risk high reward. So this new mechanic will sit right in the middle, gotta give up lefties if you want a long storm and 10 turns is more than enough for those of us used to 5-8 turns. I think this is going to be a lot of fun, maybe we can see drizzle swimming again, Kingdra back in OU rocking them cool ass spex.

Will be interesting to see whether or not the storm can be resummoned upon switching in past 10 turns. Not resetting the counter I agree with and whole hartedly agree to, but if that's it for the game that's going to kind of suck. But if we can resummon upon subsidence its going to mean that that Pokemon is even more valuable than before. No more can we sack our Ninetales as KO fodder just because the oppositions Tyranitar is fainted, which again is good, allows for more depth of play.

I wonder if this new electric field type move will also have a corresponding ability? That'll be interesting. Do we know the ins and outs of this weather yet? I'm hoping for a SPA boost for steels, or maybe an accuracy boost for steels.

Magnets.

[wraith89]

Find_Tab: is the whole weather thing lasting 5 turns confirmed? Or is it just another rumour? Because I've only heard it as quite sketchy atm, as the 5 turn permaweather ability rumour and SR damage reduction was spread by someone who is said to be a troll. I mean, it CAN be true, but there's no concrete evidence yet to say it actually is. If true, it'll make weather ability setters MUCH more valuable and losing them will completely turn the tide of the battle. No more perma sandstorms then!

The electric field continually activates Lightningrod/Volt Absorb/Motor Drive per turn. I think that's kind of broken

Of course they really really love their Electric types. I'll tear something apart if Pikachu ends up getting a Mega Evo and not Raichu.

So far Heliolisk and Magneton are seen learning the move. The effect we know so far is that it boosts up Electric moves, making them hit like a truck, and activating those aforementioned abilities per turn. It only works when grounded, however, so nope, Zapdos isn't getting Lightningrod'd every turn. Maybe I'll Lightningrod Rhydon just for fun and run Blizzard/Thunder/Fire Blast/Hyper Beam.

And actually, we don't even know if the electric terrain is an actual weather move or if it is a field effect (Trick Room/Wonder Room/Magic Room/etc) and is stackable with actual weathers.

Misty Terrain is confirmed to be a move as well, learnable by Sylveon.

An enemy has a Mega Gyarados, and it was seen carrying Iron Head and OHKOing the leaker's Sylveon. Now, that wouldn't be so much of a news, but a Gyarados carrying Iron Head may mean that Gyarados has something to fear about Fairies... perhaps Mega Gyarados is retyped Water/Dragon?

[Tbird]

Or maybe its just a move that he learns and has now pretty cool coverage. I hate to sound pessimistic but theyll never give Gyarados part dragon. That'd just make too much sense. That'll be the day Flareon gets flare blitz!

-wishes intensifies-

2013 the year of the scarf blitz Flareon!!!

[wraith89]

Flareon should get Flare Blitz, or some medium-80-100 base power Fire physical move, like Flame Tail, or something. I don't know. But it doesn't exist, unfortunately, and stupid new moves like Infestation, the Fire Spin for Bug types, exist.

Anyone think Hydreigon would still be relevant in the newer games? I mean, it still has high stats and the wide movepool to be useful enough. Unfortunately, most of the newmons are Specially Defensive and no doubt you will see Fairies everywhere, considering its also Hydreigon's 4x weakness now, and none of its STABs are rendered useful against Fairies. They even resist U-turn. It does learn Flash Cannon, however, though Fire Blast hits quite hard enough, and hits more than SE Flash Cannon in the sun.

He's always learned Iron Head by tutor, but still, no boss character ever carried that over, say, Earthquake, Stone Edge or Ice Fang. Maybe it is the commonness of Fairies that led to that? But still... they gave Charizard Dragon. I don't see why not. It's a Mega after all. They're handing out Dragon typing, Tough Claws, and all of these like candies now. I'm almost certain if Gyarados got a Mega (and it did), it would have to change its typing. Or Trollfreak decided to play trololol and made it Water/Dark instead. Since when did its part Flying made any sense anyhow? Even Dark types would be afraid of Fairies... and Fighting type wouldn't make any sense. Oh God, please don't make Mega Gyarados another Sharpedo! (it even resembles one now)

That being said, Mega Aggron and Mega Tyranitar balloons were shown. Oh good grief... I'm expecting a Dragon typed Aggron as well, maybe.

EDIT: I should NOT HAVE SAID ANYTHING. Somebody is saying Mega Gyarados took SE damage from Grass moves, NVE from Dark, and SE from Bug. Are you kidding me Gamefreak? Removing its better defensively Flying type for... for Dark? Now it's going to get KOd to some stupid Mach Punch -____-;;;

Of course, cater to your Charizard fanboys, give it the Fire/Dragon typing everyone wanted, but with Gyarados, it'd just make too much sense and give Ampharos the Dragon typing.

That's sad, and I hope this is just someone trolling and not actual, because losing resistance to Fighting, Bug, immunity to Ground and neutrality to Grass in exchange for new weaknesses just made this Gyarados worse than the normal one (asides from stats). And the only Dark STAB it would get in this case is Bite. BITE. Unless it learns Crunch somehow, I applaud you guys. Way to go. *applause* Way to go.

EDIT 2: Confirmed not to be Dragon nor Flying. At least just be just Water then. Please don't gain an unnecessary Dark type... oh please. Please.

Unless its Special Attack gets a HUGE buff and I can FINALLY run its Special movepool and Dark Pulse, it will be quite useless.

[Find__Tab]

Well. X and Y are out now, and there's some pretty interesting stuff.

First off, some of the older Pokémon are being retconned - not removed, just modified.

Garchomp's shiny is now a fabulous pink colour, instead of the boring virtually-the-same-colour shiny it was before.

More importantly though... older Pokémon are having their base stats revamped.

Here's a list:

Confirmed

Alakazam(more SpD)

Pikachu (Def/SpD)

Butterfree(SpA)

Reported

Wigglytuff (SpA)

Clefable(?)