An In-Depth Look At How The Legality Checker Functions

[Poryhack]

Codr, I'm not doubting that there's gonna be lots of cheaters on WFC. I'm not doubting that those cheaters aren't gonna be caught if they create flawless IV'd pokemon and set the PID to whatever they want. You think the PID-IV checks are useless, but they're really only useless to the people who want them to be useless.

As for the tournaments, how would we have found out? I don't know about you but I've never heard of someone even trying to enter a tournament with hacked pokemon, much less doing a methodical test and sharing their results. There just isn't enough information to say what they do and don't check for.

[Codr]

Codr, I'm not doubting that there's gonna be lots of cheaters on WFC. I'm not doubting that those cheaters aren't gonna be caught if they create flawless IV'd pokemon and set the PID to whatever they want.

Then I REALLY don't understand why you care if YOURS are """valid""".

You think the PID-IV checks are useless, but they're really only useless to the people who want them to be useless.

I don't know what you're trying to convey here. This was utterly meaningless to me.

As for the tournaments, how would we have found out? I don't know about you but I've never heard of someone even trying to enter a tournament with hacked pokemon, much less doing a methodical test and sharing their results. There just isn't enough information to say what they do and don't check for.

That's just it. I'm assuming there's not been virtually (if any) sort of public knowledge floating around about people getting rejected at events. Think about all of the """invalid""" Pokemon that've been obtained (and used) through the GTS. (Which has less checks than the Black/White random battles, by the way.) I'd say it's more likely that they're passing than not. It's utterly ridiculous to think that Nintendo would go through the OCD garbage the fans go through to validate their data.

I wouldn't be surprised if all of this is done (given the general age group of the players, and maturity levels involved) partially as a way to make people feel like they're better than others as well. (For being more "knowledgeable" or "perfect".)

As a footnote, you shouldn't be taking this offensively. It's not said with malice, although maybe annoyance.

[Poryhack]

Then I REALLY don't understand why you care if YOURS are """valid""".

As someone who almost never goes online, I'm not the person anyone should care about. But if you really want to know why I do what I do in my personal sandbox, I will tell you that I don't "cheat" in pokemon so I can go outside the scope of the game and do crazy stuff; I cheat because parts of the game have become tremendously tedious to me. Cheating is a less tedious means to the same end. Knowing the PID-IV relationships makes it downright easy to ensure that it actually is the same end; not respecting them would be a different end. I'll be honest, if the PID-IV relationship was harder to fake I probably wouldn't care as much. But with how easy it is to make a legal pokemon these days the question shouldn't be "why", it should be "why not".

I should also add that I don't just rarely go online, I rarely play period. It's become much more entertaining for me to do r&d work that pertains to pokemon then to actually play it, and that's fine with me.

I don't know what you're trying to convey here. This was utterly meaningless to me.

I was facing a similar problem with your post that I was responding to, so you'll have to forgive me. When you said "Is that what people should want? That's questionable, but we can't change what people DO want." what were you referring to?

That's just it. I'm assuming there's not been virtually (if any) sort of public knowledge floating around about people getting rejected at events. Think about all of the """invalid""" Pokemon that've been obtained (and used) through the GTS. (Which has less checks than the Black/White random battles, by the way.) I'd say it's more likely that they're passing than not. It's utterly ridiculous to think that Nintendo would go through the OCD garbage the fans go through to validate their data.

If I had to bet on one option or the other, I would take your side in a heartbeat. That said, I would not be willing to bet on this without the threat of bodily harm. Take into consideration that: 1) I can't speak for you but I would not expect to hear about someone getting kicked out. If I gave a crap about competitive battling an hung out on Smogon? Different story. 2) Nobody in their right mind is gonna use pokemon off the GTS in competitive play; competitive pokemon are not someone else's throwaway. Maybe you'd see some in the kiddie division but it wouldn't surprise me if the checkers are more forgiving there. Beyond that, official bodies have come straight out and recommend that people not use pokemon from unknown sources in competition. 3) It's hard to say what Nintendo would and wouldn't do for validation. PID-IV stuff isn't exactly hard, especially if you wrote the game. Keep in mind that the tournament is a significant investment for them with very real prizes.

I wouldn't be surprised if all of this is done (given the general age group of the players, and maturity levels involved) partially as a way to make people feel like they're better than others as well. (For being more "knowledgeable" or "perfect".)

As a footnote, you shouldn't be taking this offensively. It's not said with malice, although maybe annoyance.

I don't know what you're getting at. Nintendo wants some people to feel better than others?

As for the footnote, I feel the same way you do so no worries.

[Codr]

I cheat because parts of the game have become tremendously tedious to me. Cheating is a less tedious means to the same end.

I should also add that I don't just rarely go online, I rarely play period. It's become much more entertaining for me to do r&d work that pertains to pokemon then to actually play it, and that's fine with me.

I agree with both of these. I barely play either.

Knowing the PID-IV relationships makes it downright easy to ensure that it actually is the same end; not respecting them would be a different end.

However, this boggles me. I can't see any other reasoning for this than your own desire to have something perfect, which is fine, but admittance of that would be nice. Maybe I'm missing something.

I was facing a similar problem with your post that I was responding to, so you'll have to forgive me. When you said "Is that what people should want? That's questionable, but we can't change what people DO want." what were you referring to?

lmao, I had to read it several times myself just to remember what I was talking about. I was referring to the fact that a lot of people want to cheat.

I can't speak for you but I would not expect to hear about someone getting kicked out.

I might not expect to hear about it if people succeeded in cheating their way through either.

Nobody in their right mind is gonna use pokemon off the GTS in competitive play; competitive pokemon are not someone else's throwaway. Maybe you'd see some in the kiddie division but it wouldn't surprise me if the checkers are more forgiving there.

Why not? I think you're giving these players way more credit than they deserve, or maybe I just don't know the scope of the kind of tournaments you're talking about. I think of the number of people I see on the forums/on IRC that're idiots in every sense of the word and compare them to the number that aren't. Am I wrong to assume that that comparison is valid for tournaments too?

Beyond that, official bodies have come straight out and recommend that people not use pokemon from unknown sources in competition. 3) It's hard to say what Nintendo would and wouldn't do for validation. PID-IV stuff isn't exactly hard, especially if you wrote the game. Keep in mind that the tournament is a significant investment for them with very real prizes.

I don't know what you're getting at. Nintendo wants some people to feel better than others?

Uh. No, I don't know where Nintendo came from here. The Pokemon age group is the group that generally has major issues with superiority. Anything someone can do to make themselves feel better than someone else is probably going to be done. I can see the whole PID thing as being something to add to that.

[Poryhack]

However, this boggles me. I can't see any other reasoning for this than your own desire to have something perfect, which is fine, but admittance of that would be nice. Maybe I'm missing something.

That is the reasoning. But that reasoning is backed up by more than just a perfectionalist personality; it's quite easy to get the PID-IV relationship right. Echoing my previous statement, why wouldn't somebody take the minimal extra effort and make something "perfect" instead of "almost perfect"?

lmao, I had to read it several times myself just to remember what I was talking about. I was referring to the fact that a lot of people want to cheat.

So what if they do? Are we supposed to encourage people to cheat right back at them?

I might not expect to hear about it if people succeeded in cheating their way through either.

Right. I wouldn't expect to hear about it either way, which makes our combined lack of hearing a non-indicator. It says nothing (or if you will, something, but for both sides simultaneously).

Why not? I think you're giving these players way more credit than they deserve, or maybe I just don't know the scope of the kind of tournaments you're talking about. I think of the number of people I see on the forums/on IRC that're idiots in every sense of the word and compare them to the number that aren't. Am I wrong to assume that that comparison is valid for tournaments too?

I very well may be, but I do know there is a large community of battlers online who actually do know what they're doing and I would expect their numbers relative to a tournament group to be significantly higher than their numbers relative to the online pokemon community as a whole.

Uh. No, I don't know where Nintendo came from here. The Pokemon age group is the group that generally has major issues with superiority. Anything someone can do to make themselves feel better than someone else is probably going to be done. I can see the whole PID thing as being something to add to that.

It's probably happened but as someone who has historically been quite close to the individuals who've made advances in our understanding of the PID-IV relationships I can say that that was never intended. They did it primarily because it was fun, and secondarily because it could help people. How people use the information is their problem, I know I personally have not used it to assert superiority.

[Codr]

it's quite easy to get the PID-IV relationship right. Echoing my previous statement, why wouldn't somebody take the minimal extra effort and make something "perfect" instead of "almost perfect"?

I've been leaving something out of the conversation that'll help explain this part. From my point of view, it's more out of "great, now I have to go through extra work that I couldn't care less about just to satisfy users" due to PokeGen. Trying to get accurate and complete information to do it even when I have the will to do so makes it even worse.

You mentioned that it takes "minimal extra effort"... but is that currently true of Black/White? I barely know anything about how it's currently designed.

So what if they do? Are we supposed to encourage people to cheat right back at them?

You can't stop the cheaters. You're not gaining anything but a disadvantage by not cheating yourself. Why not do it? Not that we're talking about HUGE differences here anyway. They probably wouldn't even affect the majority of battles.

Right. I wouldn't expect to hear about it either way, which makes our combined lack of hearing a non-indicator. It says nothing (or if you will, something, but for both sides simultaneously).

Yes, which leaves us at doing extra work, or settling for a non-perfect set of data, on the assumption that they check PIDs to the degree necessary to catch someone. Also, we're speaking only for tournaments too. How many people that use Pokemon editing even participate in them?

I very well may be, but I do know there is a large community of battlers online who actually do know what they're doing and I would expect their numbers relative to a tournament group to be significantly higher than their numbers relative to the online pokemon community as a whole.

There are a decent number of non-idiots, of course. The seen AND unseen idiots vastly outnumber them, I'm sure. I still think the ratio would be roughly equivalent in tournaments. The "OMG I HAVE TO GO MOMMY TAKE ME" attitude of the idiots would surely dominate the desire of the more intelligent to go.

It's probably happened but as someone who has historically been quite close to the individuals who've made advances in our understanding of the PID-IV relationships I can say that that was never intended. They did it primarily because it was fun, and secondarily because it could help people. How people use the information is their problem, I know I personally have not used it to assert superiority.

I wasn't suggesting that you were that way, for clarity. I also wasn't even thinking about the people who did the research to figure it all out, as I completely understand that being fun. I was thinking of the people who just learn and utilize what's out there to bolster their sense of superiority. I'd be quite surprised if that kind of behavior turned out to be rare.

[Poryhack]

I've been leaving something out of the conversation that'll help explain this part. From my point of view, it's more out of "great, now I have to go through extra work that I couldn't care less about just to satisfy users" due to PokeGen. Trying to get accurate and complete information to do it even when I have the will to do so makes it even worse.

You mentioned that it takes "minimal extra effort"... but is that currently true of Black/White? I barely know anything about how it's currently designed.

Well nothing's gonna be too easy for you as a programmer. I see where you're coming from but I just don't think it's very relevant to everyone else when there are already tools out that that will handle the relationship. If you feel so strongly, don't implement it I guess.

It's not true of BW yet but I think with Bond & co.'s work on the RNG we're getting pretty close.

You can't stop the cheaters. You're not gaining anything but a disadvantage by not cheating yourself. Why not do it? Not that we're talking about HUGE differences here anyway. They probably wouldn't even affect the majority of battles.

When you think about it the vast majority of players have a very good reason not to cheat; they don't have any means to. I admit that not cheating isn't a solution, but at least it isn't furthering the problem like you're suggesting.

[Bond697]

Well nothing's gonna be too easy for you as a programmer. I see where you're coming from but I just don't think it's very relevant to everyone else when there are already tools out that that will handle the relationship. If you feel so strongly, don't implement it I guess.

It's not true of BW yet but I think with Bond & co.'s work on the RNG we're getting pretty close.

When you think about it the vast majority of players have a very good reason not to cheat; they don't have any means to. I admit that not cheating isn't a solution, but at least it isn't furthering the problem like you're suggesting.

most of the pokemon data this gen(aside from IVs which are generated separately for all but mystery gift) comes from the 4 rng calls leading up to and the 4 calls after the seed where the pokemon is encountered.(i.e. frame 0) if you look at pidrng's output, we get it all on one line by shifting around the rng calls column by column based on an implementation of that rng running forwards and backwards. it really would be a pain to get implemented in pokegen. if it was me, i would probably just make sure all the pkm data was working correctly,(nicknames, et al) and then let people fill in their own correct data from pidrng or rng reporter(once it comes out and replaces pidrng ).

[Codr]

I see where you're coming from but I just don't think it's very relevant to everyone else when there are already tools out that that will handle the relationship.

I haven't seen any with the features that the PID finder has. As in all of them.

It's not true of BW yet but I think with Bond & co.'s work on the RNG we're getting pretty close.

Then it's not minimal effort, and there is a reason for me to feel obligated to update the PID finder. This was my point, which this and the above quote response support.

When you think about it the vast majority of players have a very good reason not to cheat; they don't have any means to. I admit that not cheating isn't a solution, but at least it isn't furthering the problem like you're suggesting.

I find it hard to believe that people without a wireless router or access to a wireless hotspot elsewhere are the majority, or even remotely close to the majority. That's all it takes to be able to cheat.

it really would be a pain to get implemented in pokegen

Unless I misunderstood what you said, no it wouldn't, as it's essentially already there.

if it was me, i would probably just make sure all the pkm data was working correctly,(nicknames, et al) and then let people fill in their own correct data from pidrng or rng reporter(once it comes out and replaces pidrng ).

Fixing current problems (they're already fixed, actually) is more of a priority than new features for sure.

[Bond697]

Unless I misunderstood what you said, no it wouldn't, as it's essentially already there.

you're right, i was thinking you would need to add in the seed shifts for sync and ability and encounter slots and stuff, but there actually isn't much. nature can be most anything(because syncs don't change the PID any more) and IVs come from somewhere else. ability 0/1 is the same as it was in gen4, shiny check is the same, and that's really about it. most everything else is on the player.

[Poryhack]

I haven't seen any with the features that the PID finder has. As in all of them.

Then it's not minimal effort, and there is a reason for me to feel obligated to update the PID finder. This was my point, which this and the above quote response support.

Do you have a PID-IV thing already implemented? I was under the impression from your posts that you didn't but I haven't used any kind of save editor recently. If I were you I'd let other people who actually want to do the work on BW's algorithm do it and implement it when they're done.

I find it hard to believe that people without a wireless router or access to a wireless hotspot elsewhere are the majority, or even remotely close to the majority. That's all it takes to be able to cheat.

I forgot about the GTS trick, I stand corrected. I still hold to the final sentence of my last post however.

[Bond697]

Do you have a PID-IV thing already implemented? I was under the impression from your posts that you didn't but I haven't used any kind of save editor recently. If I were you I'd let other people who actually want to do the work on BW's algorithm do it and implement it when they're done.

I forgot about the GTS trick, I stand corrected. I still hold to the final sentence of my last post however.

there is almost no pid-iv association at all any more. any iv spread can go with any PID. this isn't true for mystery gifts, but everything else does it that way. the only thing he would have to worry about is the different PID generation methods and those are mostly just XORs of the upper32 bits of the next seed advancement.(also different for mystery gift but still rather simple) we're also still finalizing egg PIDs and wild PIDs.

egg pids are just upper32 - 0x01, but it seems to be random where it grabs the u32 from. the lowest we've seen is 10 past the current seed and the highest is 32 seeds past.

wild pids are also still a bit of a problem. the formula is supposed to be 1 rng advancement then grab the current upper 32 bits. if the highest and lowest bit of that upper32 bits is equal, XOR by 0x00010000. if they are not equal, then XOR by 0x80010000. however, while that formula seems to work for most, some people(myself included) are finding that the formula is the exact opposite for them. for us, equal upper and lower means an XOR by 80010000. so we're still figuring some things out. once we're done, i'll gladly pass along a list.

[Codr]

ability 0/1 is the same as it was in gen4

I was told the game even generates Pokemon with mismatched PID-denoted-ability and actual abilities. (Since I know you're thinking otherwise.)

[Bond697]

I was told the game even generates Pokemon with mismatched PID-denoted-ability and actual abilities. (Since I know you're thinking otherwise.)

yeah, we're slowly starting to find that out. i should've mentioned it with the stuff about weird PID generation i said above.

[Codr]

yeah, we're slowly starting to find that out. i should've mentioned it with the stuff about weird PID generation i said above.

Slowly? I was referring to generation 4 games. This was noticed months ago, if not over a year.

[Poryhack]

Is there anything that would limit the 2^32 PIDs or is any PID possible?

[Bond697]

Is there anything that would limit the 2^32 PIDs or is any PID possible?

PIDs are generally created using the upper half of the 64-bit seed that the rng generates. So it's still 32-bit, but the PID and natures aren't correlated like they were and IVs aren't either. any nature with any IVs with any PID, so far as anyone knows yet. It doesn't look like there are any limitations,(as in, method j/k from method 1) either.

the difference is that the rng that determined the egg attributes last gen now determines IVs for everything but mystery gifts. it's called at a certain point before the pid is generated, but they advance differently and apart from eachother.

Slowly? I was referring to generation 4 games. This was noticed months ago, if not over a year.

oh, i thought you were referring to gen 5. interesting, i've never heard of anything like that.

Edited January 26, 2011 by Bond697

[Codr]

Somehow I missed your post.

Do you have a PID-IV thing already implemented? I was under the impression from your posts that you didn't but I haven't used any kind of save editor recently.

Yes, the most full-featured one I've seen.

If I were you I'd let other people who actually want to do the work on BW's algorithm do it and implement it when they're done.

That's what I'm doing, but I may not update it regardless because of my stance on the subject.

I forgot about the GTS trick, I stand corrected. I still hold to the final sentence of my last post however.

Wait, "furthering the problem like you were suggesting" (In one of my previous posts.)? What was I suggesting is made worse by either cheating or not cheating? All that's made worse is the fairness to yourself by NOT cheating.

Also, typing this on a phone sucks.

[codemonkey85]

It's not just safe to say, it's definitive. There aren't many checks, and certainly not one for some relationship between the PID and other data. If there were something for tournaments, I think we'd have found out by now.

I don't think anyone's gone to an official tournament with a known hacked Pokémon and reported anything back... so I dunno about this.

EDIT: Nevermind, this point was addressed already.

Also, where did you come from, codemonkey? That's the first post I've seen from you in a while.

Oh, I've been around. But working a day job and a night job nearly every day has taken up much of my free time, I'm afraid.

Codr, which phone are you typing on?

[Codr]

We're getting off topic here, but I personally don't care about that.

Oh, I've been around. But working a day job and a night job nearly every day has taken up much of my free time, I'm afraid.

You're crazy. I think I'd rather live on the street.

Codr, which phone are you typing on?

It's a Droid 2. Edited January 30, 2011 by Codr

[SmellTheBurningEmber]

We're getting off topic here,

64% of this topic is made up of PID importance rants when it was suppose to be about how Legal works. We've been off topic for the past 31 posts people. I'm pretty sure being off topic doesn't even matter now. ~STBE

[Codr]

A little? 64% of this topic is made up of PID importance rants when it was suppose to be about how Legal works. ~STBE

You're acting as if you care, yet you're contributing now.

[SmellTheBurningEmber]

Ninja'd. I was re-wording my post. Please read it again. lol ~STBE

[Codr]

Ninja'd. I was re-wording my post. Please read it again. lol ~STBE

Maybe somewhat off topic, but what codemonkey was talking about was completely off.

[Sabresite]

You guys could have asked me for the source... SCV also has it. Good job deobfuscating it. I should have done a better job of hiding my code.

If anyone would like to improve legal, please contact me for help and I will be willing to share. Who knows, I might get some time to port it to a nice Qt C++ program.