Creation of the universe: Darwin or Bible

[kuoleva]

Yea it does, how could you !? I can't belie- Oh. You gotta calm down yourself though haha.

I know, . These things are just so fun. I get all hyper and giggly at sheltered people, to be honest. >_>

What insults have I been saying now? If saying " You aren't comprehending the theory of evolution" ( when you have not been ) or " Your equally as cocky as someone else" ( when they have been, and also talking down to everyone else from a self justified position of moral authority ) is an insult, then what some other people said must have been terrible blasphemous curses or something. I've been trying to be as polite as possible, but it seems even that hasn't been enough?

Yeah, really. Enkidu hasn't said much of anything rude, until you guys start going all "lol bible lol", and refuse to even understand evolution.

What..? Sex is not only used for procreation, nor has it always been used solely for procreation even before the introduction of contraceptives. Having a baby is not always the result or intended result for the majority of sex.

Amen to that. Hrm... Let's look at ancient cultures. Even though it was usually men, people did have sex for pleasure. Hell, how long ago was the condom invented? Most people say in the time of Egypt: It was made out of animal intestines, I believe. If not, it's pretty old, showing sex for pleasure isn't some nouveau thing.

This is dead wrong, Rats will even have sex with other males just to orgasm, a multitude of species have sex to the point of death simply because it they cannot control themselves. Apes, as I said before, masturbate and dolphins have sex for fun. You may not believe it, but it is the truth.

Yep. Look at dogs. Mine is always humping things. He's fixed, so I'm sure by now he's realized he's sterile (although he may be a bit on the... err... "special" side >_> ).

Look at it this way: We have tons of overpopulation in, say, deer. Sex has to be pleasurable, otherwise they probably wouldn't have as much of it. They're obviously enjoying something about it, I don't think we'd have this much overpopulation if sex didn't feel good.

[Okami]

Yeah...it's a personal choice whether or not to have sex, to save yourself for sex. Just because the Bible says so doesn't always mean that all God-fearing Christians are going to 'save themselves for marriage'. Sometimes lust and desires rage and there's no stopping them; I'm not saying from experience, but I have many, many friends who both love their sex lives and others who wish they'd waited. In the end, we're going to pay the consequences for our actions, it always happens.

How many pastors are out there, preaching the word by day and then masturbating to porn at night?

Again, as I stated previously, sex can become a debate in and of itself. I'd say unless we turn this back into a topic on evolution, the sex debates should become their own thread.

Sex is pleasurable, this we agree on. If humans can have sex for pleasure, then why not the other animals? Sure, animals all have a life-preservation instinct that tells them they need to mate to survive, but who says that it can't be pleasurable? If that were not the case, then why do fixed dogs hump? Why do apes masturbate? Why do female aligators (or was it crocks?) have clitoris'? Why can a pig have an orgasm lasting a half hour?

It just makes one wonder, how could it be possible that we are the only ones to have pleasurable sex? Especially if other animals are known to have orgasms: because that is the cumulation of all sexual pleasure.

[Zafur]

I need to read it to read the others, though... I like reading in order.

So wait...all of a sudden being gay..is...ok? That wasn't God's plan at all.

---

Its a natural thing (unlike homosexuality which clearly isn't natural)

I linked to this thread, from your comment I suppose you didn't read it?

http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/extended-discussion/homosexuality-is-not-a-sin-what-christ-said-and-more/t.22055569/

I'd like you to read over the replies to the arguments you use to say homosexuality is bad to see if you change your mind about God's opinion on the matter. Note that the person uses The Bible to answer almost everything, so you should find it interesting.

I'm not sure why you brought up sleeping around, unless you're suggesting gays are more prone to it than straights.

True extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So where's yours? Have you ever seen an ape become a man? Have you ever seen fossil evidence of a transitional species?

---

As for your prehistoric creatures having feathers...I'm not sure what your point is there. Big deal they had feathers...I mean hello...birds! God created all the animals at the same time and they all were unique with some similarities of course. So a velociraptor has similarities to a bird...there is no way its going to evolve from a fast land monstrosity to a small feathered creature that can fly. It just doesn't make sense and goes against the bible's evidence for creation.

Yes, hello! How are you?

An ape becoming a man is unrelated to evolution. Evolution is change in several individuals through breeding and several generations, not one individual.

I say Velociraptors are an example of a transitional species. Even if God decided to reuse designs or not, that doesn't make velociraptors illegible to be an example of a transitional species. In fact the similarities make it seem more like they were somehow related. How can you say a dinosaur didn't undergo a mutation, or a series of mutations of scales to sprout feathers? That fits within your belief of micro evolution, correct? I mean, dogs and cats are randomly born without fur, a change like that doesn't seem unrealistic. If some change in their environment favoured smaller specimens of their species, the smaller specimens would live to breed and the larger ones would die out. The smaller ones would pass on their genes, then the next generation would go through the same until eventually they became bird sized. Velociraptors are only the size of a medium to large dog. It's not THAT much of a difference in size to birds of prey, such as eagles and hawks.

I'm under the belief that the Bible's explanation was not to be taken literally... And the whole point of the debate is to use evidence to outweigh another's evidence.

Selective breeding and having new traits bred onto animals is not evolution at all. Evolution I think is one species evolving into another species to create an entirely new species. Am I right on that? With a new fur color or something like that doesn't make a new species a dog with silver fur is still a dog.

Yes, it is. Evolution is change in the genetics of a species overtime, not that one species turns into another. The changes may be so drastic over the millions of years, and billions of generations of offspring that we feel a need to call them different species, but evolution does not say one species is going to turn into some other already existing species.

A new fur colour doesn't mean a change in species, but it can be the start of one...

Do you understand my point?

Evolution = Little changes over time that eventually makes a group of animals so different from their ancestors that we decide to classify them as a different species, or subspecies, or breed...

Transitional species = Velociraptors are one because they show when dinosaurs first gained feathers, before going through more changes and eventually becoming birds. Birds have left over genetics from their reptilian ancestors, like scales.

To the whole sex for pleasure thing:

I'm pretty sure that most animals lack too much intelligence to know they're creating babies when they're going through the reproductive acts. Even if they DID know, why should they care? Most animals care only about their own survival. Several species leave their young to fend for themselves after laying the eggs. Mating requires coming out from hiding to risk your life in finding a mate. Instincts can explain a lot of things, but why would animals ACTIVELY risk their lives in finding a mate when they won't find pleasure in it? Surely if I found no pleasure in having sex, I would not do it. If it hurt, I definitely wouldn't do it. Just because animals find pleasure in mating does not make them impure. There's not so much proof in them not finding pleasure in it, and a lot for it. Such as witnessing animals pleasuring themselves, which surely can't be to make more babies.

Note: Homosexuality is seen in animals in the wild. It's natural.

Also, be respectful of other's religions here. I'm assuming Kuoleva is a Wiccan. Wicca isn't Satanic... I honestly don't see the relation but this is more unrelated than animals finding pleasure in sex.

Oh, but that is exactly what sex is. A binding contract. Between one (1) man and one (1) woman. It's a union that is made to mimic the union between Christ and the Church, which, by the way, is why we take such offense at homosexuality or polygamy.

How is it made to mimic the Church if sex has been happening since before the Church even existed?

I agree sex can be used as a binding contract but people don't always use it as such, and I find no reason why God would discriminate against homosexual or polyamorous couples. If people love more than one person, then they should be able to make binding contracts with all of them.

Sex is a binding contract, just like turtlekid2 said. It is reserved for marriage. When you get married you have to sign a bunch of legal documents and stuff, and before you have innercourse you have to prepare for the baby and stuff like that. When you do it without marriage you have none of the legal documents, no preparation, and no trust in one another. Legally the man could take off and leave you with the baby.

First off, not everyone wants kids. Second, if the man wants to split up, he'll do that regardless of whether he's married or not. I am NOT going to marry someone without complete trust in them. I do not believe the second before "I do." I can lack trust and true love, then the second after that, something magical happens and makes complete trust and love. God may send his help to strengthen newly wed couples, but he can't make them love each other. I honestly don't know why anyone would marry without already being in such a serious relationship that they have complete trust in one another... I think you're making an assumption that most sex before marriage is teenagers doing it before they think things through, but if they DID and have reached such a state in their relationship that they have devoted the rest of their lives to each other, marriage would make no difference in it and I see no reason, besides religious reasons if stated in the Bible, to not have sex at that point.

...Errr, back on the main topic everyone!

[kuoleva]

I linked to this thread, from your comment I suppose you didn't read it?

http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/extended-discussion/homosexuality-is-not-a-sin-what-christ-said-and-more/t.22055569/

I'd like you to read over the replies to the arguments you use to say homosexuality is bad to see if you change your mind about God's opinion on the matter. Note that the person uses The Bible to answer almost everything, so you should find it interesting.

I'm not sure why you brought up sleeping around, unless you're suggesting gays are more prone to it than straights.

I think I love the person who wrote this. So true, especially the parts about Hel (hell) and Christ's birth.

Also, be respectful of other's religions here. I'm assuming Kuoleva is a Wiccan. Wicca isn't Satanic... I honestly don't see the relation but this is more unrelated than animals finding pleasure in sex.

Yeah... It's so common, I've gotten used to it.

Back on the main topic, I'd like to add why evolution is the norm in schools: It really is, as of right now, the most logical and unbiased theory. Before you say "evolution says God doesn't exist"... Nope, wrong. One of my Christian friends believes in a combination of Creationism and Evolution. It's possible, just like how I've met more Christ-like Pagans than Christians. Christ was a great teacher, people just take it and misuse it.

Anyways... >_> Yeah. Like any Vulcan would say, "It seems logical".

Yes, some "missing links" have been disproved. We can't keep a perfect fossil record. It's not ape to man in one night, it's more like:

ape -> less hairy ape -> (etc.) -> more humanoid -> (etc.) -> to human. It's all about adaptation.

I'd like to ask you, if all humans originated from Adam and Eve, what race were they? How did they develop into other races? Oh yeah, evolution.

[pokemonfan]

I still have yet to read the links and unless someone else posts I'm going to edit this post upon reading.

Now, the whole animals having sex for pleasure, I think I see the point how the whole act is pleasurable, and if it wasn't there would be less. So I guess I see you're point. Especially when I think about the level of intelligence animals have.

Sex is a binding contract, or at least it should be, but the human race has far overly abused it. Then when the woman doesn't want the baby she has an abortion...that's an act of murder. You're killing a baby. Homosexuality IS wrong. Its not natural! Can you procreate by having sex with your own gender? The answer is no. Its not natural.

I do realize the evolution line from an ape to a man, unfortunately.., but I dont think its true. I still think there would be some fossil evidence of some ape to man transitional species. I mean REAL fossil evidence. Without that its really hard to think that the theory's true.

As for wicca being not satanic...lol really! Satan is the king of this earth...from what I've heard you guys worship the earth! Being in connect with nature and other things you've said sounds like you're worshiping the earth. Although it is beautiful I cant disagree, since God made it, but what you're doing is satanic. The visions and stuff you're seeing is from satan. He's controlling you. You're messing around with real forces of evil.

@ Zarfur...

how is an ape becoming a man not related to evolution? I'm sorry but by what you're saying a bunch of apes became men/women so why would that not be considered evolution?

Evolution = Little changes over time that eventually makes a group of animals so different from their ancestors that we decide to classify them as a different species, or subspecies, or breed...

I see how the definition fits evolution but an apes becoming men certainly fits the definition.

Also, by that definition are you saying that all those breeds of dogs are evolutions? What about a mule? Or a liger? Are those forms of evolutions too?

Sex is supposed to be a binding contract even if people dont use it as such. One man and One woman coming together saying that they love one another to have sex with them and to create a new life and raise that baby together. Then when that doesn't happen and you have sex for pleasure, all of a sudden you have a baby. Now you either abort it (since you dont want it since the innercourse was for pleasure) or you put it up for adoption. You're ruining the lives of the children from day one! How would you like it?

I do realize that the man can leave marriage or not. That's horrible either way...especially if the man was married. God is against divorce too. You're supposed to only be married once. Divorce is horrible. Not only are you abandoning someone but you're saying that you dont want anything ever to do with that person ever again and you're sorry anything ever was! Its horrible. It can ruin the lives of children and the spouse.

My best friend's parents were divorced and I dont know if he harbors it that much. He still sees both parents but then his mom remarried (no idea about dad) and now he has to go back and forth between houses...I cant keep anything straight especially since his stepdad had a divorce prior to marrying my friend's mom so its all chaos when he talks about his family. Its a horrible thing. I dont know how my friend or anyone else could keep things straight.

I realize that I dont know much about your wiccan faith...but I plan to learn more so that I can be more accurate. So far though I think its pretty satanic being that you pratically worship the earth. Satan is the king of this world until in the end God will make a new heaven and a new earth and satan and his followers will be cast into the lake of fire. (Hell) God's already won the battle...he's just waiting for his plan to be executed...why he's waiting I don't know..no one does...not even the Son of God himself...only God knows.

Are you confused on how Christians worship one God yet there is three in the trilogy, Holy spirit, God the father, and God the son? Its quite difficult to understand. They're all one person but not one person at the same time...its odd...but really one person.

I still have to read the links but I figured that i should post before there is to much to catch up on.

Edit:

I started reading the part on Wiccan/witchcraft and one of the first things it said was "An earth centered religion" This only backs up my point on how you're practice is satanic. I'm not saying that the earth itself is satanic after all it is made by God but the things that we have made of the world and the ruler, satan himself, are satanic. such as money, it can be a powerful idol. And anything, that takes the #1 slot instead of God is considered an idol and needs to be bumped down too 2 or below or eliminated over all.

Edit 2:

"We should educate people that 'Witch' is not evil but ancient and positive. The first time I called myself a 'Witch' was the most magical moment of my life." Margot Adler.

Wicked with of the west? The various witches that serve voldemort? Witches are portrait as evil...dont get me started on the good witch...she looked far more like a fairy god mother then a witch.

Edit 3:

"Neo-Pagan Witches aren't Satanists. The Christian anti-God, Satan, has no place in Pagan pantheons, either mythologically or theologically. Plainly and simply, to non-Christians, Satanism is the dark side of Christianity." Otter and Morning Glory Zell

You may not be satanists but that doesn't mean that what you do and worship isn't satanic.

Edit 4:

"…they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator…" (Romans 1:25)

How the truth rings so clearly. You worship nature which is God's creation yet you dont worship the divine creator? I love my drifloon sig and I give credit to bear831. Who do I give more appreciation too for the great sig. The sig itself or bear831? I'm not sure if that's the best example but its the only one I have at the moment.

Edit 5:

"You shall love your neighbor as yourself" (Mark 12:31)

Ah once again the truth rings like a melodious bell...true Christians dont wish to harm they wish to help. The ones that say they're Christians but still go around persecuting people are hypocrites. If people listen to them they can help. I'm not persecuting you or anyone, that is never ever one of my goals in this debate or any other. I'm trying to show you the truth.

Edit 6:

Christians aren't perfect....that's why it is far more important to listen to what the bible has to say then what the people have to say. The bible is God's word...and it is far more important to listen to Jesus and the bible then anything else.

Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The bell of truth rings again...

Edit 7:

John 8:44

Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Its talking about Satan's attributes here...making him a personal being instead of just a force like most wiccans believe.

Are you hearing the bell?

Edit 8:

I've come to the realization that some witches curse others...do you? If so do you use it for vengeance?

Hebrews 10:30- For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Or in other terms God will take vengeance for you.

Edit 9:

Kuoleva...what are your views on Christianity?

Edit 10: I just had to include these verses...these are some of the ones from the bible saying that witchcraft is wrong.

"There shall not be found among you anyone who …practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the LORD your God has not appointed such for you."

Deut. 18:10-14

The bell of truth rings again...

Edited June 10, 2009 by pokemonfan

[Enkidu]

how is an ape becoming a man not related to evolution? I'm sorry but by what you're saying a bunch of apes became men/women so why would that not be considered evolution?

Evolution = Little changes over time that eventually makes a group of animals so different from their ancestors that we decide to classify them as a different species, or subspecies, or breed...

I see how the definition fits evolution but an apes becoming men certainly fits the definition.

Also, by that definition are you saying that all those breeds of dogs are evolutions? What about a mule? Or a liger? Are those forms of evolutions too?

Your not...getting what evolution is!

Evolution is the change in the genetic material of a population of organisms from one generation to the next. Though the changes produced in any one generation are small, differences accumulate with each generation and can, over time, cause substantial changes in the organisms. This process can culminate in the emergence of new species.[1] Indeed, the similarities between organisms suggest that all known species are descended from a common ancestor (or ancestral gene pool) through this process of gradual divergence.

Evolution is NOT Apes become human, Wolves become dogs. It is not something you can just simplify to that degree and brush off if your trying to understand it. Please do some more reading as I can no longer continue to reiterate the same information. ( and I don't even want to post here anymore )

[pokemonfan]

If you dont want to post here anymore then dont post. I do realize that I have to do some more reading on my adversaries theory. I am currently reading what zafur linked too and that is a lot to read. I first had to find time to read up on Wiccans and their religion now I'm working my way through ok. I can only read so fast and store so much information in my brain ok. I'm only human. You could just kindly inform me about evolution because I must me missing something...but apparently you wont....

[Enkidu]

Look back over what me and Jiggy have said, it's mostly there, and I know it's enough to get past the simplicity that your applying to it.

[pokemonfan]

You guys can be hard to understand sometimes.

Edit:

I was reading over the stuff linked by zafur and basically all the guy is doing is twisting around what it says in the bible. Twisting the words to support his side. I do applaud him for he is very good at it plus by doing this he supports himself well...yet I doubt he grasps the TRUE meaning of the text.

[Turtlekid2]

Yeah, that guy twists a lot of meanings, intents, and translations around to mean almost the opposite of what they do. I would go so far as to not call him/her a real Christian, because his/her doctrines are obviously not Christian in nature.

Christ was a great teacher, people just take it and misuse it.

No, no, no. Either Christ was the Son of God, here to save us from our sins, or he was a liar and/or insane. There is no "he was just a teacher."

[Okami]

Going back to what PF said about divorce. Sure, God sees divorce as sin, but it doesn't always mean ruined relationships between parents and children. My parents divorced when I was 9, both remarried a few years down the road. My parents decided together that they would only do what is best for me, their only child. As a result, they are better friends now than they ever were as a married couple.

They live three hours apart (All the way from north of Grand Rapids to south of Detroit, look at a map if you don't know the distance) and both have come to the other's house and stayed there overnight.

My mom and my stepmom are like best friends, my dad and my stepdad get along quite well, too. The fact is, they all accept me as their child and look at what best suits my needs and not their own when it comes to parenting. It's selfless love.

Divorce doesn't have to be a bad thing. Sometimes it's in everyone's best interests. I know what God says about divorce and all (especially since marriage is binding, that's in the symbolism of the ring--it goes on forever) But it doesn't mean that divorce is always disasterous. :]

[kuoleva]

LOL. PF, I've come to the conclusion you are beyond narrow minded.

My views on Christianity? It's just another religion. It has some truths, and some evils.

Again, WITCH IS NOT A HEBREW WORD. ZIP. ZERO. NADA. It as translated as EVIL SORCERESS, or BLACK MAGICK.

Your ancestors are alive thanks to Witches. They were healers, the medicine men and women of the ancient past. They delivered babies, healed the sick, much like today's nurses. I come from a long line of Celtic Priests and Priestess, the Hobbs. I want to embrace my past, since they obviously got along with less hate and crime than today. You can't really deny it.

Satanic? No. If you disrespect my religion, fine, here it is back.

Your god is stupid. He's an asshole, a bully. Your pastors are all child molesters. Your religion is sick, twisted, that book is a piece of crap that needs to be destroyed.

See? See how you feel when I say that? It's sickening.

No, I really don't think that.

For good measure, I DO NOT THINK THAT. I'm just showing you how I feel.

Please, just get out of this. If you can't argue with respect, you shouldn't be here at all.

Oh, and LOL EARTH IS SATANIC? Dear Goddess, you must be an idiot if you really think loving nature is satanic. It's beautiful. Nature is harmony, balance between humans and divinity, or the divine consciousness that unites us all. Wow, I really do want to kick you now, and I'm usually not violent. >_<

PF, please, leave, or at least ignore me. I'm not going to sit here and let you blatantly disrespect me because some mistranslated book told you too.

Oh, and Christ wasn't a teacher? He did teach valuable lessons, denying that is denying your own religion. He taught LOVE, PEACE, and ACCEPTANCE. He was a WONDERFUL man. The son of god? Debatable, but he still taught us to love.

EDIT: I left out a part. Oopsie :<

Just like 99% of Christians aren't psycho, 99% of Pagans/Wiccans aren't psycho. There is ALWAYS that 1% that's insane.

For Christians, it's Satanists (Satan is a Christian concept honey, all Satanists are a form of Christianity, even though most Satanists see him as a SYMBOL, not a deity. I have Satanist friends. They are just atheists who believe satan had the right idea, we are all Gods in our own way... Anyways, you get what I'm saying. I mean the animal sacrificing, crazy-ass Satanists), and the people that killed my friend, thinking you could "pray the gay away" and such.

For Pagans and Wiccans (It's hard to explain the difference, I suggest reading religioustolerance.org, best website ever), it's people who do not follow the base of the Wiccan Rede, "An it Harm None, Do What Ye Will". Meaning, if it doesn't hurt anybody, in any way, shape, or form, do what you want.

The other base is "Mind the Threefold Law You Should, Three Times Bad and Three Times Good". Meaning, karma will kick your ass. Anything you send out will get returned threefold. Curse someone? Get ready to pay, sucker. Heal someone? You gets happy time.

For the record, I let my Goddess, and karma, do my vengeance, although I rarely get annoyed by people to that point. I've never even thought about black magick, or love spells, or anything like that. I mostly dedicate myself to herbal medicine, or Reiki Healing, through energy transfer.

Oh, and I reserve my right to say "ass", the FCC says I can. >_> Seriously. They never censor it on Maury or anything. <_<

[pokemonfan]

I'm sorry if I offended you, (that was never my intention) I'm not an expert on being a wiccan or what they believe. I wasn't so sure about reading what you linked too...you see I dont want to delve to deep into things that God views as evil. Instead...I read this. You should too..it was written by a FORMER wiccan who now follows christ. I know at least something now about what you believe.

Also, witch being translated as EVIL SORCERESS? Dont you hear the first part of the translation? EVIL ??? What's the evil parts about Christianity? Earth isn't exactly satanic, at least the planet itself isn't...its the ruler (satan) and the sin that dwells on earth that's the evil dark part. The creation of course isn't...God loves the sinner but hates the sin.

Christ was a teacher but more then that...he was the son of God...how do you think he rose from the dead..how did he walk on water, heal the blind and the paralyzed? How? If he wasn't the son of God how'd he drive out demons in the name of the lord? I ask you what is your response to that?

Once again..bringing up your dead friend again. That's not going to help and its only going to cause you more grief.

I see how you are attracted to the religion..who wouldn't be...it gives power, freedom, and abilities they like. Such as healing and cursing. Just because its appealing doesn't mean its right. Take fast food, it tastes good and looks good but is it good for you? Not in the least. Dont get me wrong...I love french fries and donuts...that doesn't mean they're helping anyone.

I noticed how you didn't quote or respond to any of my scripture references...is there a reason for that?

[Turtlekid2]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that she doesn't recognize the validity of Scripture.

[kuoleva]

Because the scripture is, indeed, mistranslated. You won't believe it, so I won't try.

I'm attracted to it because I believe it, nothing more, nothing less. My Goddess has helped me through thick and thin, just like your Christ has. It's my belief system.

Yes, I know, EVIL. Witches are NOT evil. Not in the least. That logic makes no sense to me.

The article, again, their belief system. I do not believe Christ was the son of god. Therefore, I am not a Christian. I never will be. That person believes in Christianity because they decided the path of the Lord and Lady wasn't right for them. I firmly believe any path that makes you do good in life is a good path.

Earth is not ruled by satan. Yes, people can be evil. Again, my belief that everyone, and everything have two sides, "good" and "evil". Satan is simply a scapegoat for people to blame their misdeeds on. If people choose to believe a little red man made them do something, fine with me. That doesn't change the fact that THEY are the ones who made that decision.

It's fine, really. You just need to be a little more educated before you post. :3

EDIT: Turtlekid, the scripture has no REASON to be valid. It is, again, a book. If you believe it, fine. That does not make you right, or your religion the only answer.

[pokemonfan]

Probably...either that or she doesn't know how to respond to it. Those are my guesses. Since you posted turtlekid2 I have to add this to this post instead of the one prior...

John 3:16 (all time fave here and one of the few I have memorized)

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, so that whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

Its wonderful isn't it...

Edit:

Satan is too the ruler of this world...he has control over us but only to the extent of God's control. If satan really wants to do something God will have to let it happen. Everything that happens to us is because God wants it to happen. Its all a very divine and intricate plan. God sends trials to test us.

[kuoleva]

That is what you believe. Again, not my belief system.

I prefer to believe in a God and Goddess that do not let the world be ruled by a "creature of pure evil". I prefer to believe in a world where we choose our own destinies, our own paths in life, no strings attached. I prefer to believe in a world where the battled between "good" and "evil" is not made up of a God and devil playing a betting game, but rather inside ourselves, trying to find out who, or what we really are.

Keep true to your beliefs. If they make you feel good about life and keep you going, it's always worth it. I don't agree with it, but it doesn't matter what I think in the long run. This is YOUR life, YOUR call. Do what you feel is right, but try not to hurt others in the process.

[Okami]

But remember, PF, that God does not in any way, shape or form, tempt us to do wrong. He may test us, but it is only in a way that is, in the end, going to strengthen our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Zafur]

Try to keep swearwords at a minimum as I think my school's proxy blocks things with too many swearwords. Couldn't access page 12 Rofl. Try not to over react so much either, please. Trust me, it's kinda hard hard for me to be purely logical with my responses also.

Sex is a binding contract, or at least it should be, but the human race has far overly abused it. Then when the woman doesn't want the baby she has an abortion...that's an act of murder. You're killing a baby. Homosexuality IS wrong. Its not natural! Can you procreate by having sex with your own gender? The answer is no. Its not natural.

---

Sex is supposed to be a binding contract even if people dont use it as such. One man and One woman coming together saying that they love one another to have sex with them and to create a new life and raise that baby together. Then when that doesn't happen and you have sex for pleasure, all of a sudden you have a baby. Now you either abort it (since you dont want it since the innercourse was for pleasure) or you put it up for adoption. You're ruining the lives of the children from day one! How would you like it?

According to Christianity, yes, it should only be used as a binding contract... Women don't always get pregnant, and I don't see some cells without a conscience or mind yet as a human.

If homosexuality creates more offspring or not is irrelevant. It happens in nature, in the wild. You really can't get more natural than that...

And sex isn't only to create babies in humans. Married couples have sex for only pleasure all the time. And just because they "accidentally" got a baby, doesn't mean they didn't want it.

I do realize the evolution line from an ape to a man, unfortunately.., but I dont think its true. I still think there would be some fossil evidence of some ape to man transitional species. I mean REAL fossil evidence. Without that its really hard to think that the theory's true.

What do you want as proof? Fossils of every single variation between man and ape?

Wicca stuffs:

Wiccans don't worship the earth directly, from my knowledge of it. They worship their Goddess which had created the earth, and the things they do that looks like worshiping the Earth is a way to pay homage to the creator, probably. Like how you don't worship the ceremonies or the bread and wine at Church, you make ceremonies around them to worship God.

Edit: Didn't God banish Satan to Hell? I doubt he "rules over" anything. He's there, wherever Hell is, suffering. The only "power" he has is that we have free will, thus we can choose to sin or not.

Most of those scripture quotes appear irrelevant aside from the one that directly mentions sorcerers, etc.

Also. Remember... You have free will. Reading that website isn't going to make you convert into a Wiccan. You still have the choice to believe what you want to.

... I see this as a possible reason you're so adamant against any evidence for evolution being actual evidence? Does proving evolution absolutely mean that there's no God for you?

Healing/Cursing isn't that different from Christianity. Free will. If you want to curse, you curse, but it's still bad. I'm sure there's consequences for that, like karma as Kuoleva mentioned.

The religion isn't all about the "powers". It's about worshiping the Goddess. [Only the Goddess, or only the God. Or even both the God and Goddess as two gods, or you can see them as one and them being male and female attributes of one true god, similar to the Christian Holy Trinity.]

how is an ape becoming a man not related to evolution? I'm sorry but by what you're saying a bunch of apes became men/women so why would that not be considered evolution?

Evolution = Little changes over time that eventually makes a group of animals so different from their ancestors that we decide to classify them as a different species, or subspecies, or breed...

I see how the definition fits evolution but an apes becoming men certainly fits the definition.

Also, by that definition are you saying that all those breeds of dogs are evolutions? What about a mule? Or a liger? Are those forms of evolutions too?

I was specifying that it's the species as a whole, or a group of that species becoming a group of a new species. Not just one ape spontaneously becoming one man.

Evolution is the whole process of series of generations changing because of their genes, so the creation of dog breeds are the results of evolution, or more specifically, selective breeding.

A mule and a liger are hybrids... This is one generation of offspring. I'm not sure if mules can breed out to horses or donkeys, but ligers have bred with a tiger, I think, and produced t-ligers. The hybrids were just one step in evolution, for this example.

I was reading over the stuff linked by zafur and basically all the guy is doing is twisting around what it says in the bible. Twisting the words to support his side. I do applaud him for he is very good at it plus by doing this he supports himself well...yet I doubt he grasps the TRUE meaning of the text.

I don't see twisting the Bible.He's looking at the Bible in it's least translated, thus purest form, and looking at what it says. He even goes back to look at the Greek version. He's not twisting the Bible itself. You may think that he may be stretching some things out of context, but I don't think I've seen that in his arguments for homosexuality.

[Turtlekid2]

That is what you believe. Again, not my belief system.

I prefer to believe in a God and Goddess that do not let the world be ruled by a "creature of pure evil".

Satan does not rule this earth with sovereignty, as evidenced in Job when he is shown to need God's permission to afflict Job with misfortune. God is the one that still ultimately rules the heavens AND earth.

Keep true to your beliefs. If they make you feel good about life and keep you going, it's always worth it. I don't agree with it, but it doesn't matter what I think in the long run. This is YOUR life, YOUR call. Do what you feel is right, but try not to hurt others in the process.

So... as long as you feel good about something, it doesn't matter if it's a complete lie? If I believed Christianity were a lie or untrue in any way, I for one would not still believe in it. And as Christians, by definition, our lives are no longer ours, but God's.

[kuoleva]

So... as long as you feel good about something, it doesn't matter if it's a complete lie? If I believed Christianity were a lie or untrue in any way, I for one would not still believe in it. And as Christians, by definition, our lives are no longer ours, but God's.

As long as you believe it and feel good about it, it's fine.

You do NOT know that Christianity is the right path. You may believe it is, but that does not, by any means, make it completely true. I guess I can never install that into you, but belief and truth are two different things.

I do believe my faith. I honestly and truly do. That does not mean it's the right one. Islam may be the "right" religion. Hindu might be. Asatru might be. Christianity might be. We don't know, and should quit pretending we do.

Satan does not rule this earth with sovereignty, as evidenced in Job when he is shown to need God's permission to afflict Job with misfortune. God is the one that still ultimately rules the heavens AND earth.

Your logic still baffles me. Why would god give him permission to hurt people? To test their faith? IMO, that's an asshole-ish thing to do, right there. There is NO reason to do that. If they choose to defy him, fine, but why give an evil being permission to hurt them? It just makes no sense.

[wraith89]

Yeah, that guy twists a lot of meanings, intents, and translations around to mean almost the opposite of what they do. I would go so far as to not call him/her a real Christian, because his/her doctrines are obviously not Christian in nature.

No, no, no. Either Christ was the Son of God, here to save us from our sins, or he was a liar and/or insane. There is no "he was just a teacher."

Just read through the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins... and goodness gracious! He's twisting stuff SO hard and SO subtly it changed so many scientists into atheists. I wonder what he'd do to me...

And Hinduism = monotheism? This guy is twisting stuff so hard... it's not even funny.

"I cannot believe in a world without God" ~me

"I cannot believe in.... God" ~ Dawkins quoting me

LOL. Sorry, it's been a LONG time since I've touched this topic. I don't think I will often >_>

Turtlekid, I believe you got that quote from C.S. Lewis...

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

It's from Mere Christianity

I believe there are no alternatives either...

[Okami]

Ah...I really do want to read Mere Christianity. It's been on my to-read list since I became a Christian...just haven't had the chance. Maybe someday I'll find it at the library.

[Turtlekid2]

As long as you believe it and feel good about it, it's fine.

You do NOT know that Christianity is the right path. You may believe it is, but that does not, by any means, make it completely true. I guess I can never install that into you, but belief and truth are two different things.

I do believe my faith. I honestly and truly do. That does not mean it's the right one. Islam may be the "right" religion. Hindu might be. Asatru might be. Christianity might be. We don't know, and should quit pretending we do.

I DO know in my heart that Christianity is the right path; again, if I didn't, I would be a fool to follow it.

If you're not positive that your belief is right, why on earth would you believe it? For some false sense of security that doesn't last beyond your earthly life? :confused:

Your logic still baffles me. Why would god give him permission to hurt people? To test their faith? IMO, that's an asshole-ish thing to do, right there. There is NO reason to do that. If they choose to defy him, fine, but why give an evil being permission to hurt them? It just makes no sense.

1. Man brought evil upon himself when he first disobeyed God. God cannot be blamed for our actions.

2. God will always have control over the outcome of evil actions for the sake of his servants. What Satan intends for evil, God uses for good (in the case of Job, God rewarded Job for his faithfulness and made his later life more blessed and fruitful than his past).

3. If they defy him, who are you to deny God judgment? True, he's loving, but he's also just, and he cannot (not will not, cannot) allow evil to go unpunished. By all rights, all of mankind should burn in Hell; if it weren't for God's mercy, we would be. So don't you dare accuse God of being unmerciful.

[kuoleva]

I DO know in my heart that Christianity is the right path; again, if I didn't, I would be a fool to follow it.

If you're not positive that your belief is right, why on earth would you believe it? For some false sense of security that doesn't last beyond your earthly life? :confused:

I think you missed my point. Quit acting all high and mighty. Believe what you want, but quit dismissing everything before you learn the facts, like you were obviously doing with Enkidu and Jiggy. The conversations looked like this, in a nutshell:

Jiggy/Enkidu: Uhm, about evolution... The concept of the theory -cut off-

You: LOL Bible omgwtf

J/E: But, if you just look at this and try to understa-

You: BIBLE SAYS NO

J/E: You aren't even try-

You: BIBLE IS RIGHT YOU ARE WRONG YES

J/E: Never mind >_<

You: LOL I WIN

Honestly, it really did look like that. Bring up another point instead of using the bible. It is a BOOK. Unproven books have no place in a logical discussion. If you had a valid point, such as carbon dating, then maybe. As of right now, all you have is a book, and it gets real old, real fast.

1. Man brought evil upon himself when he first disobeyed God. God cannot be blamed for our actions.

Why was god afraid for man to eat from the tree of knowledge? Did he want us to live in ignorance? That's... Quite douchebaggy. Don't even start with "ITS A TESSSST" That is tempting you, like putting wine in front of an alcoholic suffering from withdrawal: "Hey, look at this. It looks mighty good, but you can't have it. If you try to take it, I'll kick your ass". Really. That isn't very nice.

2. God will always have control over the outcome of evil actions for the sake of his servants. What Satan intends for evil, God uses for good (in the case of Job, God rewarded Job for his faithfulness and made his later life more blessed and fruitful than his past).

That doesn't excuse putting them through pain at all.

We're his SERVANTS? Wow, that makes me feel like I'm worth something.

3. If they defy him, who are you to deny God judgment? True, he's loving, but he's also just, and he cannot (not will not, cannot) allow evil to go unpunished. By all rights, all of mankind should burn in Hell; if it weren't for God's mercy, we would be. So don't you dare accuse God of being unmerciful.

This great quote describes my feelings. I'm not atheist, but it describes this well.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

- Epicurus

Why. Let. Evil. Happen. At. All? If he's going to get rid of it at judgment day, why would he let it happen at all?

Don't start with the testing crap. Again, that's pretty mean. Do we just exist to give him an ego boost? To make him feel loved by something, and if we don't show that love (because he hasn't given us any proof) we burn for eternity? Why didn't he just zap satan? If he couldn't because of free will, he is not omnipotent. If he didn't want to, he is malevolent.

I've been told there will be no sin in heaven. That means there will be no free will. There cannot be free will without the option to do bad. I'd rather burn in a lake of fire for being free than live in Neverland for being a slave.

We've listened to your arguments. Go read up on what evolution ACTUALLY is, and reread the info Jiggy and Enkidu gave you. If you still don't believe it? Fine. But from the looks of it, you just saw the word "evolution", and entirely dismissed it. How can you not expect us to do the same to you?