Should Stealth Rock be Banned?

[Turtlekid2]

Ahoy, all. Anyone remember me? I've been somewhat unfaithful about staying on top of this forum.

In any case, I apologize if this topic is superfluous, in the wrong place, or inappropriate in some other way. I searched and didn't find another thread like this one.

Now, to business:

The move Stealth Rock, for those of you that don't know, is a Rock-Type attack that is laid down in the same way as Spikes. It damages opponents switching into the battle for a set percentage of HP. However, unlike Spikes, Stealth Rock cannot be "layered" to deal additional damage to switching Pokemon. Instead, it takes type effectiveness into account. For example, a Flying Pokemon switching in while its team has been hit with Stealth Rock (or, "Rocked," if you will) will take double the damage switching in, just like it would take twice the damage from, say, Stone Edge.

Now, therein lies the problem. Because of the unique mechanics of the move, the competitive scene has been flooded with "Rockers." It's seen absurd amounts of use due to its ability to deploy quickly (again, unlike Spikes, which requires multiple turns to be layered on fully) and take advantage of typing. One of the main reasons Garchomp was bumped to the Uber Tier was because it "overcentralized" the competitive game (that, and the terror known as Yachechomp); in other words, it became a necessity for a team to include a Pokemon entirely for the purpose of countering Garchomp. Now, admittedly, I'm no expert at comptetitive battling, so I could be missing something, and this whole topic could just be mindless rambling. But: it seems to me that we have a similar centralization problem with Stealth Rock. The effects of the move's popularity have reached fairly wide; take Charizard - once a reliable Borderline Pokemon, (according to Smogon's rankings for Gen III) not to mention a personal favorite of mine (which has contributed to my angst regarding SR), has been downgraded into the NU tier (again, according to Smogon). Okay, so there are probably other factors for Charizard's demotion, but the way I see it, it was largely thanks to Stealth Rock and the poor reptile's massive weakness to it. If it were only one Pokemon that had bitten the dust, the situation would've been acceptable. But more Pokemon than Charizard have been majorly screwed by SR (although some haven't been booted to lower tiers and levels of usage). Moreover, the Pokemon that haven't fallen through the tiers have been forced to take measures to deal with Stealth Rock. A Pokemon with Stealth Rock support and a Pokemon with Rapid Spinning capabilities have both become commonplace. In my opinion, this is comparable to many teams' including a Pokemon solely to deal with Garchomp. If practically requiring one or even two Pokemon to utilize and/or defend against one move isn't overcentralizing, I don't know what is.

I suppose that's all I can think to say on the matter for now (tl;dr - Stealth Rock hasn't had a good effect on competitive Pokemon). Remember, don't be afraid to let me have it if I'm just blowing off a lot of hot air. Of course, if it seemed to make sense to you, I wouldn't mind being told I'm not alone in my line of thought. Also, I'm sure there are numerous other ways to look at the issue, so... discuss! Cry "Stealth Rock" and let slip the Houndoom of competitive battle.

[wraith89]

You are not the only one who thinks that. While I do not believe Stealth Rocks should be banned, it has a considerable amount of advantages over the other entry hazards.

1) It only takes ONE turn to set up

2) It hits every Pokemon except Magic Guard Cleffa/Clefairy/Clefable

Stuff like Spikes or Toxic Spikes need to be set up 3 or 2 turns respectively for it to take full effect, and even then, Levitating or Flying Pokemon take no notice of it, while most Fliers are weak to Stealth Rocks themselves, taking 25% damage. And of course, we have Pokemon like Yanmega, Charizard, Delibird, Moltres, Articuno (my personal favorite) and stuff taking detrimental damage (50%!!), making all hopes of using stuff like Articuno (primarily a wall) useless in battling (so much for a legendary) or not allowing Bellyzard to sweep properly. It is lethal to Shedinja of course, but you should be packing a spinner and a weather clearer anyways since sand/spikes affect it. Consider that Stealth Rock is the 2nd most used move in battling (1st is the universal Earthquake), and teams that utilize Stealth Rocks tend to win more battles than those without it. It turns those 3HKOs to 2HKOs, destroys Focus Sash, and pretty much does somewhat "centralize" the game. I'm still iffy about banning it though.

But yes, I can see where you are coming from. Maybe Stealth Rocks is working a little TOO well. If only 2x Super Effective damage was reduced to 18.75% and 4x became 25%... mhh. Also those Pokemon I mentioned, people probably don't even see them anymore since I'm the only one using them so it doesn't affect them as much as it affects me, so I may be rambling as well >.>

[Gin]

It's true that Stealth Rocks are overpowered, but, banning it is a no-no. However, I CAN see a clause, such as no entry hazard clause, or just no Stealth Rocks Clause.

[Mewtwo Ex]

I quite frankly am starting to like Stealth Rock. Although am such as i am no longer a strategist i start to use it as of late. Be it on the first or at longest 5-th or 6-th turn.

[SwitzaHouse]

I agree that Stealth Rock is a little too much. It affects so many PKMN, and causes the lack of use of many PKMN. In my opinion it kind of ruins the over all experience since it shrinks the amount of PKMN people use and such only the same PKMN are used over and over taking away the huge variety the game has. It is a touchy subject to some to think of it as over powered/banning it. I feel it wouldn't hurt to ban it more then keep it, at least then there will be a lot more PKMN used which I think is always better. I would have to concur.

[xorhash]

Okay, I think it's time for some statistics.

Following Pokemon in Smogon's current version of OU are weak to Stealth Rock (Normal font means 2x weakness to Rock -> 25% health loss, bold means 4x weakness -> 50% health loss):

Dragonite

Gyarados

Ninjask

Salamence

Togekiss

Weavile

Those are six out of 47 current OU Pokemon, which isn't too bad. The 12% or less loss of HP can be neglected in most cases.

So, what does this mean for the move itself? It actually helps balancing some of the top threats in OU.

Now, there's a small problem: Multiple Pokemon who have BL or even OU potential (Articuno, Yanmega, I'm looking at you guys) are simply neglected because they take massive damage from Rocks. Those Pokemon are simply denied in Smogon's OU because Stealth Rock hampers their function up to entire uselessness.

Imagine you have a Yanmega and stupidly switch into a Roar - your Yanmega is blown away and if its HP isn't odd (correct me if I'm wrong there), it's dead weight, because after another switch-in it's KOd anyway.

So you could say Stealth Rock is a pretty unfair to some Pokemon, but it helps keeping OU balanced, especially in regards to stuff like MixMence.

Overall I'd say Stealth Rock should stay. Most people rely heavily on it and it does help balancing OU.

[Mewtwo Ex]

Impressive speech to say the least.

Correction time:

Imagine you have a Yanmega and stupidly switch into a Roar - your Yanmega is blown away and if its HP isn't odd (correct me if I'm wrong there), it's dead weight, because after another switch-in it's KOd anyway.

Who would switch a Bug/Flying knowing there are SR laid? If in competative no one would. Another thing. If 4X weakness it will take 49% of the health on the second switch meaning it will survive if switched with 50% health. In other words it will be at 1% in battle (Knowing there is no weather effect active.)

I personally tested that myself yesterday.

[wraith89]

MewtwoEX, what if you had no other choice BUT to switch it in? Or... RNG says "screw you" and the opponent's phazer HAPPENS to drag out the bug/flying in question? A Pokemon with 4x weakness to Stealth Rock can survive with 1 HP if it switched in 2 times (assuming no other damage taken) ONLY if their HP is at odd number. Otherwise, make the mistake of investing 4 HP EV in that Yanmega and watch in horror as it faints from the second impact.

Furthermore, even if a Pokemon is not weak to Stealth Rocks, taking 12.5% every time you switch in does have an effect. Even stuff like Tyranitar or Infernape who are not even weak to Stealth Rocks hate taking 12.5% every time they switch in. 12.5% is NOT negligible. Those who are weak to it are just unfortunate to take more. Lucario who has a 4x resist to it (therefore only taking 3.125% from SR) still hates having his Focus Sash ruined (if he carries it)... or how those 97% damage moves can OHKO him after that.

I still don't think it should be banned for it keeps some Pokemon in check (Gyarados and Salamence really need that check or else they'd ravage things like crazy... as if they didn't do that already)... but I do think it is working a little TOO well.

[randomspot555]

Wraith brings up an interesting poitn (as did a previous poster) to advocate FOR SR in the main game: It keeps many big threats in check.

Many Choice Band/Scarf/Specs standards rely on being able to come in, sweep/revenge kill, and then switch out.

But look at the many common Band and Scarf users: Tyranitar, Heatran, Scizor, Heracross, Starmie, Gengar all take NEUTRAL damge from SR. This dampens how often they can switch in and out so much, or need to find a way to pass health to them. Add into the equation the also powerful Salamence, Dragonite, and Zapdos take 25% and it keeps a check on them.

So yeah it's dampened the use of non-lead Aerodactyl, and essentially banned Moltres, Articuno, and Charizard to UU/NU, but at the cost of keeping all those other threats in check? I think it's worth it.

[Guardna]

I think the only situation where Stealth Rock should be banned is if it cannot be Rapid Spinned or Defogged away.

[randomspot555]

I think the only situation where Stealth Rock should be banned is if it cannot be Rapid Spinned or Defogged away.

What does that even mean?

[Mewtwo Ex]

What does that even mean?

I think he means where Rapid Spin is forbidden.

[SwitzaHouse]

There are a few good points in here. I can see what people mean by it keeping certain PKMN in check, but I don't think it would cause the likes of Gyarados/Salamence to run wild. I mean I'd just thick to pack a Trace Porygon2 to keep them in line. And there is still Spikes, poison or not, they can rack up damage themselves and for the things that they can't hit, blast them with Stone Edge, Ice Beam, etc. since most things hit hard by SR are also hit hard by those moves. But then again I am no expert battler so I don't know the statistics, but I do think that it would take more thought in making a team in a world without SR since there would be more options and threats to consider.

[wraith89]

Porygon2 is an overspecialized Pokemon for that job though, although it is a good counter. It will not counter Specsmence though with SpecsDM... causing massive damage on P2.

Hmm... a clause that advocates the banning of Stealth Rocks... might sound fun actually. But then again, I've seen teams that don't even use Stealth Rocks at all (myself included with stuff like Team PP)... but maybe we could all try battling without Stealth Rocks. It's not as absurd as, say, no-STAB clause, where STAB moves are banned (I actually tried this a couple of times ).

[Greencat]

Stealth Rock is the reason why some once-great Pokémon are no longer favored or considered. A few are Froslass, Regice, Articuno, Staraptor, etc.

[wraith89]

I can't believe so many people are mentioning Articuno. Wow... I thought by now people would forget about it

Anyways, yeah, Regice was awesome back in Gen III but once Stealth Rocks and CB Stone Edge users hit the ceiling, well... Regice took a long fall down, even enough to end up in NU in Smogon's tierage (I still question what NU means)... even if I think Regice is underestimated, for I was able to reliably defeat Salamence/Gyarados/bulky waters/grassers with this guy, Stealth Rocks pretty much made it less viable as a wall. I think it's amazing how it is the Pokemon that are supposed to be walls got impacted the most. Take Ho-oh in ubers for instance, who hates how Stealth Rocks chips away half of its health every time it switches in. Offensive Pokemon who hate Stealth Rocks at least can leave an impact before being taken down, but overall, it is those defensive Pokemon that took the hits. Being a defensive player, it limits my choices of which Pokemon to get, and even with a spinner, I need something to destroy SPIN BLOCKERS who can walk all over most spinners like Forretress/Starmie/etc... who just so happens to all be weak to Rotom.

But then again, Stealth Rocks are needed to keep many Pokemon in check, as I've said many times before. It's scary to encounter a Gyarados who Dragon Danced at least once... it really is. But stuff like Scarf Typhlosion with Eruption... really hate Stealth Rocks.

[randomspot555]

Stealth Rock is the reason why some once-great Pokémon are no longer favored or considered. A few are Froslass, Regice, Articuno, Staraptor, etc.

I see Froslass quite often on Blizzard teams.

Staraptor never got to to play in a non-SR environment because, well, it was introduced in the 4th gen. That being said, it doesn't do anything that most physical attackers can't already do. Take Heracross, who gets STAB on Bug and Fighting, both at 120 base power (Megahorn and Close Combat). Staraptor's Return is pretty good but doesn't get great coverage, Brave Bird is in a similar situation (with recoil!) and no STAB on Close Combat.

I played around with Staraptor as a U-Turn Scouter in early D/P on Wi-Fi, but why use it when I can use Flygon who RESISTS SR?

[randomcouchpotato]

stealth rocks is way to much, if they had to include it then it shouldnt have been a tm and had only a couple pokemon that are incredibly weak to water and grass be able to learn it. as for garchomp, my absol can take one out in 1-2 hits and survive an earthquake

[randomspot555]

stealth rocks is way to much, if they had to include it then it shouldnt have been a tm and had only a couple pokemon that are incredibly weak to water and grass be able to learn it. as for garchomp, my absol can take one out in 1-2 hits and survive an earthquake

So...you made absolutely no justification as to why SR should be banned, and you think it should be banned?

Also, even for Wi-Fi/cart players, how a move is learned shouldn't impact on if it's allowed or not. A TM move and level up move are no different than a move Mew got at only one event.

Also, this thread isn't about Garchomp. Start another thread for that if you wish, I'll infract anyone who posts about it in this thread after my post.

[randomcouchpotato]

my team consists entirely of UUs because of stealth rocks

[wraith89]

Oh right. Another advantage of Stealth Rocks is its WIDE DISTRIBUTION. Many things are capable of learning Stealth Rocks, while Spikes and the more elusive Toxic Spikes are... well... less distributed.

[randomcouchpotato]

So...you made absolutely no justification as to why SR should be banned, and you think it should be banned?

Also, even for Wi-Fi/cart players, how a move is learned shouldn't impact on if it's allowed or not. A TM move and level up move are no different than a move Mew got at only one event.

Also, this thread isn't about Garchomp. Start another thread for that if you wish, I'll infract anyone who posts about it in this thread after my post.

sr should be banned because too many pokes (many are some of my favorites) are susceptible to it and i mentioned my absol taking out a garchomp cuz someone els mentioned that garchomp is in uber cuz it can use stealth rocks to centralize the game

[Guardna]

I think he means where Rapid Spin is forbidden.

Or where it would be ineffective.

[randomspot555]

sr should be banned because too many pokes (many are some of my favorites) are susceptible to it and i mentioned my absol taking out a garchomp cuz someone els mentioned that garchomp is in uber cuz it can use stealth rocks to centralize the game

All Pokemon are susceptil to it. It shouldn't be banned just because of some random person's favorites.

Some of my favorites are screwed my Spikes/Toxic Spikes. I carry a Tentacurel on many of my teams now due to Roserade lead increase, but that doesn't mean I'll advocate it for banning.

It's entirely possible to have a balanced game, like we do know, with the involvement of SR. I'd argue that it'd be LESS balanced because threats that take neutral damage to it (Tyranitar, Scizor, Heatran, and many others) would run rampant, more than they are NOW. And that would basically keep those Pokemon you love so much, probably still in UU and NU.

[randomcouchpotato]

im just mentioning that as a side note that some of my favorites are more susceptible to sr than others that happen to not be my favorites

and i relize its still possible to have a balanced game its just a bit harder then it would have been