Miracle or Luck

[Greencat]

Debate Topic: Do you believe in Miracles or Luck?

Take this in a point of view of health conditions and not space.

My Stances: I believe in miracles.

Reason: Because I've lived through about a handful of major ones. Although sometime I believe in luck (winning the lottery), but for a health condition stand point, I believe in them.

Rule:

All the default rules apply, but provide a reason why!

[wraith89]

I believe in miracles. Fortuna is cruel to me >.>

Miracles do occur everyday but sometimes we refuse to believe it.

[Okami]

Miracles. It's really too personal to go into depth....[EDIT, taking this all out. If you want the story, PM me]

The fact is, I'm alive. If that's not reason enough to believe in the God I serve and miracles, I don't know what is.

[Narwhal]

Okami: Okay, those may have been miracles, or luck. Sometimes, your actions influence what happens, so you could be lucky if you barely avoided a dog biting flesh off of your arm, but you pulled it away, or got away, so you made the "luck" or "miracle" happen. That's just an example.

[wraith89]

Okami: Okay, those may have been miracles, or luck. Sometimes, your actions influence what happens, so you could be lucky if you barely avoided a dog biting flesh off of your arm, but you pulled it away, or got away, so you made the "luck" or "miracle" happen.

Luck happens by chance. Do you honestly believe all that could have happened by chance? It seems improbable for me. All that you see... human life, nature... the patterns of this world... were all created by chance? The odds of that is unfavorable.

[Greencat]

I believe in luck.

You may want to re-edit your post since I changed this relates to health conditions and not space or the future.

And how do you know if miracles are lies? You can't say that without experiencing one.

IMO: That is very true, but you could also see someone experience it too.

Miracles. It's really too personal to go into depth...

Same here.

[Narwhal]

Health conditions have a reason they happen, and a reason they stop, even if it seems like a miracle. So take a vote off of luck, and put it on other. :wink:

Thank you Greencat for another debate! :rolleyes:

[wraith89]

Health conditions have a reason they happen, and a reason they stop, even if it seems like a miracle. So take a vote off of luck, and put it on other. :wink:

Thank you Greencat for another debate! :rolleyes:

But do you know for sure if it's luck? If all odds seem improbable (see Greencat's scenario below) when Lady Luck abandons you and the only thing that could save a person is miracle... I believe it's a miracle...

[Greencat]

Well, I just think that if someone was pernamentally para from the neck down--spinal cord cut... infact, we will say 10 inches ripped out leaving a 10 inch gap for those who want to test this. Anyways, he or she wakes up and gains all mobility. No doctor can explain how it happen and even the best say it is impossible to happen and so do sceintists. What are you going to believe?

IMO: Now for luck? That's chance. Like saying the chance of the computer randomly picking a number between 1/10.

[Narwhal]

It could have been temporary.

*Leaves thread forever*

[randomspot555]

Well, I just think that if someone was pernamentally para from the neck down--spinal cord cut... infact, we will say 10 inches ripped out leaving a 10 inch gap for those who want to test this. Anyways, he or she wakes up and gains all mobility. No doctor can explain how it happen and even the best say it is impossible to happen and so do sceintists. What are you going to believe?

IMO: Now for luck? That's chance. Like saying the chance of the computer randomly picking a number between 1/10.

Medicine isn't an exact science. It's "luck" in the case of so-called medical miracles. People coming out of comas years and years later, or supposed healings, etc...

I've yet to read of a medical miracle that didn't actually have a logical explanation behind it.

[FLOOTENKERP]

I've stated in IRC that I only believe in luck. If you survive a car crash or a light of thunder you are known as one of the most luckiest people in the world. You survived through luck, not a miracle. I've already took atheism into consideration anyways, and atheists always look at fact.

[wraith89]

I've stated in IRC that I only believe in luck. If you survive a car crash or a light of thunder you are known as one of the most luckiest people in the world. You survived through luck, not a miracle. I've already took atheism into consideration anyways, and atheists always look at fact.

This has nothing to do with religious perspectives, Floot, and no, atheists don't always look into fact. They have something called bias too. Their bias is that "there IS NO God". If anything, I'd say agnosticism is an even more fair perspective... they consider a God but are not sure. I'd say both sides, religious and non-religious, have their bias... and not everyone looks into fact.

Anyways, that doesn't necessarily imply luck. You could have survived through a miracle too you know. You're only looking through one side saying "oh I'm so lucky". Well, how can you be so sure chance pulled you through? There are situations where not even your vaunted Lady Fortuna can save you from... only a miracle could save you.

[FLOOTENKERP]

Miracle - an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.

This sounds pretty illogical, which is why I don't believe in it.

[wraith89]

Another bias... "there are no such things as supernaturals". How do you know? Is this world all there is?

[FLOOTENKERP]

No one can be sure. Just take a look at what human knowledge has brought us to. You and me are on computers. Human intelligence did this. A miracle? I think not.

[wraith89]

No one can be sure. Just take a look at what human knowledge has brought us to. You and me are on computers. Human intelligence did this. A miracle? I think not.

But it wasn't luck either. Did we get all this through luck?

It's getting almost irrelevant here... we are NOT here to attack one another's faith.

[PokeDaemon]

An interesting topic. Is it by luck that all is like this or perhaps a miracle. Or is it a miracle created by luck, or luck created by miracle.

Some say that a miracle created the first organisms. Some argue that it was mere luck and that all was there exactly when it needed to be. I find that a miracle is luck, and vice versa.

All right no more repetition... Personally I believe that the universe is and always has been about luck. Multiple events strung together into an unpredictable pattern. The only thing that is set in stone is that the event will occur and it will end, that is it. What happens between creation and oblivion is completely up to chance. It is by chance that I am capable of thinking in this manner. It is by chance that the human race created the idea of miracle and luck. And it is by chance that we as humans are incapable of ever knowing. Perhaps it is a Law of Nature. Perhaps humans are never to know. Ever curious the human will constantly try to figure out everything, but in this greed human beings will...

Okay I went way off there. Basically: Everything can only be by luck because a miracle even happening implies that humans truly have no control of their path, and I as a human can not wish for what I believe is free will to leave me as a possiblility and allow it to become a memory. In other words, I am scared of miracles.

[damio]

Neither.

Cause and effect.

There is never an effect without a cause.

[randomspot555]

But it wasn't luck either. Did we get all this through luck?

It's getting almost irrelevant here... we are NOT here to attack one another's faith.

Ironically, due to past posts, you two probably agree more on faith based issues than disagree.

The lightning scenario is a great example of distorting "miracle" and "luck" for the sake of an argument. A miracle is an unexplainable event, as far as current human knowledge and hard evidence is concerned. Luck is simply a chance event, something beyond control.

However, getting struck by lightning is "luck", well, one way of putting it, since luck is just a chance event.

However, surviving getting struck by lightning is not "luck." There's established methods in the medical community of treating patients struck by lightning. And as long as there's no electric charge left in the patient, they're safe to handle and can be treated for burns, broken bones, etc... and nothing too different just because they're struck by lightning. Surviving isn't chance, since others have direct control over how likely you are to survive.

And looking at the Miracles section of Wikipedia, it seems so many have very logical explanations and many can be tossed up to mass hysteria.

I mean, I hate this argument that "Well blah blah blah is so unlikely to happen so isn't that luck? and isn't luck basically a miracle?"

[damio]

Some people create miracles in their mind, because of fear, when the reason itself was infact, science.

Being struck by lightning is something a lot of people fear, and when someone survives it, it is deemed amazing because people believe that it should always kill you.

But if the lightning doesn't travel through any major organs, there is little chance of death. Commonly however, people do not know this, and create miracles from fears.

[Greencat]

It could have been temporary.

But I said it was pernament.

I've yet to read of a medical miracle that didn't actually have a logical explanation behind it.

You should see the church channels on TV.

If you survive a car crash or a light of thunder you are known as one of the most luckiest people in the world. You survived through luck, not a miracle.

What if the doctor says there is no chance left to live (chance=luck) and you live from the car accident?

Miracle - an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.

This sounds pretty illogical, which is why I don't believe in it.

Read above.

No one can be sure. Just take a look at what human knowledge has brought us to. You and me are on computers. Human intelligence did this. A miracle? I think not.

Did I say everything came from miracles?

1. We are narrowing this subject down health related miracles/luck.

2. Did I say everything came from miracles?

3. It wasn't luck either.

4. It just happened. Like how the wind blew this spec of dust to my back yard.

Basically: Everything can only be by luck because a miracle even happening implies that humans truly have no control of their path,

Yes we do. We make choices don't we? That's a different subject of coincidences or destiny as some may call it.

@ everyone discussing the lighting: That's a little to strech since that's like saying you getting hit from a dump truck.

I think if you got hit from lighting and lived, you are lucky and maybe a small miracle. But if you are told from everyone something isn't going to happen and it happens--such as losing 7 years of cancer overnight with no trace in your body that you had cancer-- than I think that's a miracle.

[randomspot555]

Double edit: And yeah, people are using medicine a lot because it's something that people can easily wrap their minds around.

You should see the church channels on TV.

Those are like the absolute worst examples of "miracles". There's a very good reason why, even among Christians, few consider those miracles valid.

The TLDR is that these faith healing celebrations, even if it isn't completely staged, is that amounts of adrenaline can cause body functions to increase beyond normal means. In someone physically disabled, it might mean their disability goes away for a time being, or that the adrenaline represses pain, and so on.

And this idiot lied to a kids' parents and left him in pain all just to push his religious agenda.

Available scientific evidence does not support claims that faith healing can cure cancer or any other disease. Even the "miraculous" cures at the French shrine of Lourdes, after careful study by the Catholic Church, do not outnumber the historical percentage of spontaneous remissions seen among people with cancer. However, faith healing may promote peace of mind, reduce stress, relieve pain and anxiety, and strengthen the will to live.

...

Although it is known that a small percentage of people with cancer experience remissions of their disease that cannot be explained, available scientific evidence does not support claims that faith healing can actually cure physical ailments. When a person believes strongly that a healer can create a cure, a "placebo effect" can occur. The placebo effect can make the person feel better, but it has not been found to induce remission or improve chance of survival from cancer. The patient usually credits the improvement in how he or she feels to the healer, even though the perceived improvement occurs because of the patient's belief in the treatment. Taking part in faith healing can evoke the power of suggestion and affirm one's faith in a higher power, which may help promote peace of mind. This may help some people cope more effectively with their illness.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Faith_Healing.asp

What if the doctor says there is no chance left to live (chance=luck) and you live from the car accident?

Doctors can make mistakes. But rarely does a doctor make a definitive statement like that without specific evidence to back it up. People don't just miraculously live from injuries. There's a reason why they die or get better.

That's besides the semantics that a doctor would rarely say something like "no chance left to live". More like a chance of meaningful recovery. Is it really living if you're attached to machines and fed through a tube?

I think if you got hit from lighting and lived, you are lucky and maybe a small miracle.

As damio and 20 seconds on Google would tell you, getting hit by lightning is not as big of a deal as medical shows and movies make it out to be.

But if you are told from everyone something isn't going to happen and it happens--such as losing 7 years of cancer overnight with no trace in your body that you had cancer-- than I think that's a miracle.

Yeah, but that's never happened. Cancer just doesn't dissapear. Remission != dissapearance.

[kunaidude34]

i believe in both miracles and luck. to me, it takes luck for a miracle to happen.

[HottSushiz]

The temperature of the air around a bolt of lightning is about 54,000° Fahrenheit (30,000° Celsius), which is six times hotter than the surface of the sun.

Remarkably, many people have been struck by lightning and survived. American park ranger Roy Sullivan, for example, was hit by lightning seven times between 1942 and 1977. As long as the lightning does not pass through the heart or spinal column, the victim of a lightning strike will most likely survive.

With that being said how does one survive a strike that's hotter then the surface of the sun? while people are able to get fried a billion miles away?

I believe in both really because it requires Luck to get striked by lightning also it's a miracle surviving it

I give my some of my life to Lady Luck, as I'm a person who is just terrible with decisions, even rather simple ones, like choosing a Snicker Bar from a Mars bar, so since last last Monday, i have chosen to settle it by flipping a coin.

Sometimes i question if Miracle is Luck, vice versa, or one is both, because if you were in critical condition, and must be rushed to the hospital, but alas there is a mile worth of traffic, your not in a ambulance, and you don't have much time left, is it a miracle that you arrive in the hospital in time, or luck that you somehow get through the stream of traffic?

Luck

an unknown and unpredictable phenomenon that causes an event to result one way rather than another

Miracle

a marvellous event manifesting a supernatural act of a divine agent

Perhaps there is no answer to such question, as humans may not be able to search the answer, or it is comprehensible, although the human brain isn't able to process it.

The definition of the two terms seems rather similar, but maybe that's not the correct definition, and maybe the human species hasn't correctly labeled it.