Miracle or Luck

[Greencat]

Debate Topic: Do you believe in Miracles or Luck?
Take this in a point of view of health conditions and not space.

My Stances: I believe in miracles.
Reason: Because I've lived through about a handful of major ones. Although sometime I believe in luck (winning the lottery), but for a health condition stand point, I believe in them.

Rule:
All the default rules apply, but provide a reason why!

[wraith89]

I believe in miracles. Fortuna is cruel to me >.>
Miracles do occur everyday but sometimes we refuse to believe it.

[Okami]

Miracles. It's really too personal to go into depth....[EDIT, taking this all out. If you want the story, PM me]

The fact is, I'm alive. If that's not reason enough to believe in the God I serve and miracles, I don't know what is.

[Narwhal]

Okami: Okay, those may have been miracles, or luck. Sometimes, your actions influence what happens, so you could be lucky if you barely avoided a dog biting flesh off of your arm, but you pulled it away, or got away, so you made the "luck" or "miracle" happen. That's just an example.

[wraith89]

Okami: Okay, those may have been miracles, or luck. Sometimes, your actions influence what happens, so you could be lucky if you barely avoided a dog biting flesh off of your arm, but you pulled it away, or got away, so you made the "luck" or "miracle" happen.

Luck happens by chance. Do you honestly believe all that could have happened by chance? It seems improbable for me. All that you see... human life, nature... the patterns of this world... were all created by chance? The odds of that is unfavorable.

[Greencat]

I believe in luck.
You may want to re-edit your post since I changed this relates to health conditions and not space or the future. ;)


And how do you know if miracles are lies? You can't say that without experiencing one.
IMO: That is very true, but you could also see someone experience it too. :)


Miracles. It's really too personal to go into depth...
Same here. :)

[Narwhal]

Health conditions have a reason they happen, and a reason they stop, even if it seems like a miracle. So take a vote off of luck, and put it on other. :wink:
Thank you Greencat for another debate! :rolleyes:

[wraith89]

Health conditions have a reason they happen, and a reason they stop, even if it seems like a miracle. So take a vote off of luck, and put it on other. :wink:
Thank you Greencat for another debate! :rolleyes:

But do you know for sure if it's luck? If all odds seem improbable (see Greencat's scenario below) when Lady Luck abandons you and the only thing that could save a person is miracle... I believe it's a miracle...

[Greencat]

Well, I just think that if someone was pernamentally para from the neck down--spinal cord cut... infact, we will say 10 inches ripped out leaving a 10 inch gap for those who want to test this. Anyways, he or she wakes up and gains all mobility. No doctor can explain how it happen and even the best say it is impossible to happen and so do sceintists. What are you going to believe?

IMO: Now for luck? That's chance. Like saying the chance of the computer randomly picking a number between 1/10.

[Narwhal]

It could have been temporary.
*Leaves thread forever*

[randomspot555]

Well, I just think that if someone was pernamentally para from the neck down--spinal cord cut... infact, we will say 10 inches ripped out leaving a 10 inch gap for those who want to test this. Anyways, he or she wakes up and gains all mobility. No doctor can explain how it happen and even the best say it is impossible to happen and so do sceintists. What are you going to believe?

IMO: Now for luck? That's chance. Like saying the chance of the computer randomly picking a number between 1/10.

Medicine isn't an exact science. It's "luck" in the case of so-called medical miracles. People coming out of comas years and years later, or supposed healings, etc...

I've yet to read of a medical miracle that didn't actually have a logical explanation behind it.

[FLOOTENKERP]

I've stated in IRC that I only believe in luck. If you survive a car crash or a light of thunder you are known as one of the most luckiest people in the world. You survived through luck, not a miracle. I've already took atheism into consideration anyways, and atheists always look at fact.

[wraith89]

I've stated in IRC that I only believe in luck. If you survive a car crash or a light of thunder you are known as one of the most luckiest people in the world. You survived through luck, not a miracle. I've already took atheism into consideration anyways, and atheists always look at fact.

This has nothing to do with religious perspectives, Floot, and no, atheists don't always look into fact. They have something called bias too. Their bias is that "there IS NO God". If anything, I'd say agnosticism is an even more fair perspective... they consider a God but are not sure. I'd say both sides, religious and non-religious, have their bias... and not everyone looks into fact.

Anyways, that doesn't necessarily imply luck. You could have survived through a miracle too you know. You're only looking through one side saying "oh I'm so lucky". Well, how can you be so sure chance pulled you through? There are situations where not even your vaunted Lady Fortuna can save you from... only a miracle could save you.

[FLOOTENKERP]

Miracle - an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.

This sounds pretty illogical, which is why I don't believe in it.

[wraith89]

Another bias... "there are no such things as supernaturals". How do you know? Is this world all there is?

[FLOOTENKERP]

No one can be sure. Just take a look at what human knowledge has brought us to. You and me are on computers. Human intelligence did this. A miracle? I think not.

[wraith89]

No one can be sure. Just take a look at what human knowledge has brought us to. You and me are on computers. Human intelligence did this. A miracle? I think not.

But it wasn't luck either. Did we get all this through luck?

It's getting almost irrelevant here... we are NOT here to attack one another's faith.

[PokeDaemon]

An interesting topic. Is it by luck that all is like this or perhaps a miracle. Or is it a miracle created by luck, or luck created by miracle.

Some say that a miracle created the first organisms. Some argue that it was mere luck and that all was there exactly when it needed to be. I find that a miracle is luck, and vice versa.

All right no more repetition... Personally I believe that the universe is and always has been about luck. Multiple events strung together into an unpredictable pattern. The only thing that is set in stone is that the event will occur and it will end, that is it. What happens between creation and oblivion is completely up to chance. It is by chance that I am capable of thinking in this manner. It is by chance that the human race created the idea of miracle and luck. And it is by chance that we as humans are incapable of ever knowing. Perhaps it is a Law of Nature. Perhaps humans are never to know. Ever curious the human will constantly try to figure out everything, but in this greed human beings will...

Okay I went way off there. Basically: Everything can only be by luck because a miracle even happening implies that humans truly have no control of their path, and I as a human can not wish for what I believe is free will to leave me as a possiblility and allow it to become a memory. In other words, I am scared of miracles.

[damio]

Neither.
Cause and effect.
There is never an effect without a cause.

[randomspot555]

But it wasn't luck either. Did we get all this through luck?

It's getting almost irrelevant here... we are NOT here to attack one another's faith.

Ironically, due to past posts, you two probably agree more on faith based issues than disagree.

The lightning scenario is a great example of distorting "miracle" and "luck" for the sake of an argument. A miracle is an unexplainable event, as far as current human knowledge and hard evidence is concerned. Luck is simply a chance event, something beyond control.

However, getting struck by lightning is "luck", well, one way of putting it, since luck is just a chance event.

However, surviving getting struck by lightning is not "luck." There's established methods in the medical community of treating patients struck by lightning. And as long as there's no electric charge left in the patient, they're safe to handle and can be treated for burns, broken bones, etc... and nothing too different just because they're struck by lightning. Surviving isn't chance, since others have direct control over how likely you are to survive.

And looking at the Miracles section of Wikipedia, it seems so many have very logical explanations and many can be tossed up to mass hysteria.

I mean, I hate this argument that "Well blah blah blah is so unlikely to happen so isn't that luck? and isn't luck basically a miracle?"

[damio]

Some people create miracles in their mind, because of fear, when the reason itself was infact, science.
Being struck by lightning is something a lot of people fear, and when someone survives it, it is deemed amazing because people believe that it should always kill you.
But if the lightning doesn't travel through any major organs, there is little chance of death. Commonly however, people do not know this, and create miracles from fears.

[Greencat]

It could have been temporary.
But I said it was pernament. :|


I've yet to read of a medical miracle that didn't actually have a logical explanation behind it.
You should see the church channels on TV.


If you survive a car crash or a light of thunder you are known as one of the most luckiest people in the world. You survived through luck, not a miracle.
What if the doctor says there is no chance left to live (chance=luck) and you live from the car accident?


Miracle - an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.

This sounds pretty illogical, which is why I don't believe in it.
Read above.


No one can be sure. Just take a look at what human knowledge has brought us to. You and me are on computers. Human intelligence did this. A miracle? I think not.
Did I say everything came from miracles?
1. We are narrowing this subject down health related miracles/luck.
2. Did I say everything came from miracles?
3. It wasn't luck either.
4. It just happened. Like how the wind blew this spec of dust to my back yard. :|


Basically: Everything can only be by luck because a miracle even happening implies that humans truly have no control of their path,
Yes we do. We make choices don't we? That's a different subject of coincidences or destiny as some may call it.

@ everyone discussing the lighting: That's a little to strech since that's like saying you getting hit from a dump truck. :p
I think if you got hit from lighting and lived, you are lucky and maybe a small miracle. But if you are told from everyone something isn't going to happen and it happens--such as losing 7 years of cancer overnight with no trace in your body that you had cancer-- than I think that's a miracle.

[randomspot555]

Double edit: And yeah, people are using medicine a lot because it's something that people can easily wrap their minds around.



You should see the church channels on TV.

Those are like the absolute worst examples of "miracles". There's a very good reason why, even among Christians, few consider those miracles valid.

The TLDR is that these faith healing celebrations, even if it isn't completely staged, is that amounts of adrenaline can cause body functions to increase beyond normal means. In someone physically disabled, it might mean their disability goes away for a time being, or that the adrenaline represses pain, and so on.

And this idiot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Coe) lied to a kids' parents and left him in pain all just to push his religious agenda.


Available scientific evidence does not support claims that faith healing can cure cancer or any other disease. Even the "miraculous" cures at the French shrine of Lourdes, after careful study by the Catholic Church, do not outnumber the historical percentage of spontaneous remissions seen among people with cancer. However, faith healing may promote peace of mind, reduce stress, relieve pain and anxiety, and strengthen the will to live.
...
Although it is known that a small percentage of people with cancer experience remissions of their disease that cannot be explained, available scientific evidence does not support claims that faith healing can actually cure physical ailments. When a person believes strongly that a healer can create a cure, a "placebo effect" can occur. The placebo effect can make the person feel better, but it has not been found to induce remission or improve chance of survival from cancer. The patient usually credits the improvement in how he or she feels to the healer, even though the perceived improvement occurs because of the patient's belief in the treatment. Taking part in faith healing can evoke the power of suggestion and affirm one's faith in a higher power, which may help promote peace of mind. This may help some people cope more effectively with their illness.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Faith_Healing.asp


What if the doctor says there is no chance left to live (chance=luck) and you live from the car accident?

Doctors can make mistakes. But rarely does a doctor make a definitive statement like that without specific evidence to back it up. People don't just miraculously live from injuries. There's a reason why they die or get better.

That's besides the semantics that a doctor would rarely say something like "no chance left to live". More like a chance of meaningful recovery. Is it really living if you're attached to machines and fed through a tube?


I think if you got hit from lighting and lived, you are lucky and maybe a small miracle.

As damio and 20 seconds on Google would tell you, getting hit by lightning is not as big of a deal as medical shows and movies make it out to be.


But if you are told from everyone something isn't going to happen and it happens--such as losing 7 years of cancer overnight with no trace in your body that you had cancer-- than I think that's a miracle.

Yeah, but that's never happened. Cancer just doesn't dissapear. Remission != dissapearance.

[kunaidude34]

i believe in both miracles and luck. to me, it takes luck for a miracle to happen.

[HottSushiz]

The temperature of the air around a bolt of lightning is about 54,000° Fahrenheit (30,000° Celsius), which is six times hotter than the surface of the sun.

Remarkably, many people have been struck by lightning and survived. American park ranger Roy Sullivan, for example, was hit by lightning seven times between 1942 and 1977. As long as the lightning does not pass through the heart or spinal column, the victim of a lightning strike will most likely survive.

With that being said how does one survive a strike that's hotter then the surface of the sun? while people are able to get fried a billion miles away?

I believe in both really because it requires Luck to get striked by lightning also it's a miracle surviving it

I give my some of my life to Lady Luck, as I'm a person who is just terrible with decisions, even rather simple ones, like choosing a Snicker Bar from a Mars bar, so since last last Monday, i have chosen to settle it by flipping a coin.

Sometimes i question if Miracle is Luck, vice versa, or one is both, because if you were in critical condition, and must be rushed to the hospital, but alas there is a mile worth of traffic, your not in a ambulance, and you don't have much time left, is it a miracle that you arrive in the hospital in time, or luck that you somehow get through the stream of traffic?

Luck
an unknown and unpredictable phenomenon that causes an event to result one way rather than another
Miracle
a marvellous event manifesting a supernatural act of a divine agent


Perhaps there is no answer to such question, as humans may not be able to search the answer, or it is comprehensible, although the human brain isn't able to process it.

The definition of the two terms seems rather similar, but maybe that's not the correct definition, and maybe the human species hasn't correctly labeled it.

[Zafur]

Hmm. I suppose I believe in both. Luck is just a chance of something happening, while a miracle is something that can't be explained that happened through higher powers. I believe miracles are possible, since I believe in a god, but I can't think of any that have actually happened... in a recent time frame that doesn't date back before about 2000 years. I don't see this as a one or the other thing... People who don't believe in a higher power will not believe in miracles, and those that do, will in addition to belief in luck.
I just don't necessarily believe in "good" or "bad" luck. Everything is up to chance... And unless you can affect those chances, they remain neutral.

[Greencat]

Doctors can make mistakes. But rarely does a doctor make a definitive statement like that without specific evidence to back it up. People don't just miraculously live from injuries. There's a reason why they die or get better.

That's besides the semantics that a doctor would rarely say something like "no chance left to live". More like a chance of meaningful recovery. Is it really living if you're attached to machines and fed through a tube?
Say that to the doctor I had when I almost died from a car accident. He told my family they should start preparing a funeral. My surgeon said the seat belt damage was so severe it was like someone got a chainsaw and put it inside me. I was on life support for over a week. I believe that is a miracle.


Yeah, but that's never happened. Cancer just doesn't dissapear. Remission != dissapearance.
It's happen to one of our family friends.

[damio]

If you survive a light of thunder[...]
LOL
Thunder is the sound. Lightning is the actual static electricity.


Doctors can make mistakes. But rarely does a doctor make a definitive statement like that without specific evidence to back it up. People don't just miraculously live from injuries. There's a reason why they die or get better.

As damio and 20 seconds on Google would tell you, getting hit by lightning is not as big of a deal as medical shows and movies make it out to be.
Doctors can make mistakes, but they can also lie. They can also see something as a miracle because of their own religion, and force that thought onto the family of a patient to force them to believe that something was a miracle.


As damio and 20 seconds on Google would tell you
LOL



Say that to the doctor I had when I almost died from a car accident. He told my family they should start preparing a funeral. My surgeon said the seat belt damage was so severe it was like someone got a chainsaw and put it inside me. I was on life support for over a week. I believe that is a miracle.
Did you think that the life support was giving your body time to naturally heal itself. The doctor may not have taken it into consideration, but the body's natural healing system is really bloody persistent.
Ever think how someone can survive with a bullet shot through their liver?

On one more note, cat's have 9 lives, you probably just had to lose one to heal >:P Have fun with your next 8.

[pokemonfan]

miracles although sometimes its debatable whether its luck or miracles. I believe in divine intervention.

[Okami]

Another bias... "there are no such things as supernaturals". How do you know? Is this world all there is?

It's like asking the question "Do paranormals exist?" Which is a whole other topic in and of itself, of course- but the answer as it stands could be yes or no, same as this one.

[FLOOTENKERP]

Did I say everything came from miracles?
1. We are narrowing this subject down health related miracles/luck.
2. Did I say everything came from miracles?
3. It wasn't luck either.
4. It just happened. Like how the wind blew this spec of dust to my back yard. :|
Hm, call me crazy but I think it was pretty lucky that whatever fortunate event accidentally happened to make the parents of the creator of the computer to meet. Does that not seem lucky to you? In fact, computers play a big role in hospitals, which is what we use to create these so called "miracles". What would be a miracle is if you got into a car crash, were not brought to a hospital and got up and healed naturally yourself, which will never happen.

[damio]

Hm, call me crazy but I think it was pretty lucky that whatever fortunate event accidentally happened to make the parents of the creator of the computer to meet. Does that not seem lucky to you? In fact, computers play a big role in hospitals, which is what we use to create these so called "miracles". What would be a miracle is if you got into a car crash, were not brought to a hospital and got up and healed naturally yourself, which will never happen.
Keep in mind that it is perfectly possible for someone to be in a horrifying car crash and get up and walk away, it all depends on the severety of the injuries.

[randomspot555]

Say that to the doctor I had when I almost died from a car accident. He told my family they should start preparing a funeral. My surgeon said the seat belt damage was so severe it was like someone got a chainsaw and put it inside me. I was on life support for over a week. I believe that is a miracle.

Was there a medical reasoning to how your body was healed?


It's happen to one of our family friends.

Anecdotal evidence only goes so far. And since you clearly believe in miracles, then you'll be more inclined to believe they are miracles.

There hasn't been a documented case of cancer just vanishing.. If it was true, your family friend would be in a variety of medical texts.


Keep in mind that it is perfectly possible for someone to be in a horrifying car crash and get up and walk away, it all depends on the severety of the injuries.

That and adrenaline. People have been documented performing "super-human" (for lack of a better term) feats when pumped up with enough of it.

I'm inclined to agree with Floot, that a miracle isn't someone surviving from a disease or injury while being monitored by medical professionals, no matter how slim the chance of survival is, because there is always a chance. And a miracle is NOT faith healing, and there's good reason that almost no, if any, legit churches recognize that mass hysteria BS. A miracle would be a blind man all of a sudden being able to see, and retaining it, or a disease vanishing as if it was never there in the first place, or getting up from a severe car crash and walking away from it without injury.

[Turtlekid2]

I believe in miracles, yes, and to a certain extent, chance, which some would call luck. A miracle, for me, involves something out of the ordinary, something that defies natural law. Luck has more to do with things like the lottery or the random character switch in Smash Bros. Brawl.

[DeathWatch]

I believe in Luck more then miracle.

[YuzuruHitokiri]

Luck happens by chance. Do you honestly believe all that could have happened by chance? It seems improbable for me. All that you see... human life, nature... the patterns of this world... were all created by chance? The odds of that is unfavorable.

Yes, I do... Things happen, then other things happen that build off of them...
Imagine it as dominos stacked near each other. You just happen to press one and it falls. It lands on the next and it in turn falls. It falls onto the next and so on and so forth. They were there and caused each other to fall. At the end one falls off a table and falls onto a bug, killing it instantly... If you were that bug, would you consider that a miracle?...


Well, I just think that if someone was pernamentally para from the neck down--spinal cord cut... infact, we will say 10 inches ripped out leaving a 10 inch gap for those who want to test this. Anyways, he or she wakes up and gains all mobility. No doctor can explain how it happen and even the best say it is impossible to happen and so do sceintists. What are you going to believe?

IMO: Now for luck? That's chance. Like saying the chance of the computer randomly picking a number between 1/10.

Two bad examples, Greencat...
One, if a person were to have "10 inches ripped out" of their back, HOW WOULD THEIR BRAIN BE ABLE TO SEND THE SIGNALS REQUIRED FOR A CONTRACTION IN THE MUSCLES!!! And if 10 inches were missing, how would their vital organs still be intact AND how would they have enough blood to maintain their bodily functions long enough to get to a hospital to be brought to a stable condition?...
Two, a computer NEVER does ANYTHING at random... A random number generator gives the illusion of randomness by taking the time in some defined unit of time and then calculates a number based on that time! It appears random because it is highly improbable that two people will use the generator at the exact same time ever...


Another bias... "there are no such things as supernaturals". How do you know? Is this world all there is?

You're biased too... How do you know there is any other worlds besides ours?... How do you know that any other worlds follow different rules pertaining to what we consider supernatural?... The fact is that we do not know either way and, as such, it has no place in debate...


An interesting topic. Is it by luck that all is like this or perhaps a miracle. Or is it a miracle created by luck, or luck created by miracle.

Some say that a miracle created the first organisms. Some argue that it was mere luck and that all was there exactly when it needed to be. I find that a miracle is luck, and vice versa.

All right no more repetition... Personally I believe that the universe is and always has been about luck. Multiple events strung together into an unpredictable pattern. The only thing that is set in stone is that the event will occur and it will end, that is it. What happens between creation and oblivion is completely up to chance. It is by chance that I am capable of thinking in this manner. It is by chance that the human race created the idea of miracle and luck. And it is by chance that we as humans are incapable of ever knowing. Perhaps it is a Law of Nature. Perhaps humans are never to know. Ever curious the human will constantly try to figure out everything, but in this greed human beings will...

Okay I went way off there. Basically: Everything can only be by luck because a miracle even happening implies that humans truly have no control of their path, and I as a human can not wish for what I believe is free will to leave me as a possibility and allow it to become a memory. In other words, I am scared of miracles.

Thank you, at least someone shares my opinion...


Double edit: And yeah, people are using medicine a lot because it's something that people can easily wrap their minds around.

And because medicine is sort of a "guess and check" science because we still do not understand ourselves even close to completely...


Those are like the absolute worst examples of "miracles". There's a very good reason why, even among Christians, few consider those miracles valid.

The TLDR is that these faith healing celebrations, even if it isn't completely staged, is that amounts of adrenaline can cause body functions to increase beyond normal means. In someone physically disabled, it might mean their disability goes away for a time being, or that the adrenaline represses pain, and so on.

Amazing chemical, that adrenaline. You even hear about that lady that picked up a car to save her son that was trapped underneath it?...

[Greencat]

Two bad examples, Greencat...
One, if a person were to have "10 inches ripped out" of their back, HOW WOULD THEIR BRAIN BE ABLE TO SEND THE SIGNALS REQUIRED FOR A CONTRACTION IN THE MUSCLES!!! And if 10 inches were missing, how would their vital organs still be intact AND how would they have enough blood to maintain their bodily functions long enough to get to a hospital to be brought to a stable condition?...
Two, a computer NEVER does ANYTHING at random... A random number generator gives the illusion of randomness by taking the time in some defined unit of time and then calculates a number based on that time! It appears random because it is highly improbable that two people will use the generator at the exact same time ever...

Exactly. If they lived, it's a miracle.

[Endless Eden]

Simple.

Luck.

You either have it or dont.

[Greencat]

How is it lucky to be restored essentially, super naturally, if no one expects the person to live?

[SmellTheBurningEmber]

Personally, I'm torn. I believe shit happens and I believe shit happens for a reason. It honestly just depends on the situation. Just some examples:

A Shiny Pokémon appeared!: Luck.
A cancerous tumor disappears for unknown reasons: Miracle.
A XBox 360 doesn't get the RROD since it's been bought 3 years ago: Neither, because you would be lying.



So luck applies to everything that isn't life-threating, in my opinion. ~STBE

[Endless Eden]

There have been accounts of whats called the Lazerus effect (coming back from the dead)

A particular one i recall is one my English teacher told the class ( sorry parts are vague but i know the gist of it)

A man was Climbing mountains when he fell into a crevas. This man died in that crevas 3 days later he was found and when he was taken back to a hospital a pulse appeared and the man returned to health.

Now you will say "Oh a miracle the invisible hippie did it!" but here one for ya,

The mans head landed in a stream. The motion of the water kept activity of some sort in his brain alive. (thats the vague part i dont recall exactly how it happened..)

That man was lucky his head landed in the stream wasnt he?

(and lol the RROD comment ^)

[Greencat]

I say luck for that one since something took part and he fell in water when there was a chance he could've slid 3 inches to the right and hit a rock and die.
Something acted upon it and changed the situation. :o

[ASuch]

First of all. Let me say this. I am an atheist. Flame me for it. I think that miracles are real, but some people think that its because of super natural means. I don't hate Chirstians, its just that I hate that they believe one person saved this persons life like 10 times. If this acutally happened by super natural means, why isn't AIDS cured? Why isn't Cancer cured?

[OriginShadow]

I believe in both.
Miracles because when I was born, my intestines weren't attached to my stomach, yet I survived 3 months with very little food without any negative repercussions.
I fell 2~3 stories onto wood and got up without a scratch.
Luck: I well out of a boat going 50~60 mph and got up again, uninjured with the boat narrowly missing me. (fell of the bow)
Was nearly pasted by a cement truck, but I slid backwards on gravel just in the nick of time.

Not much in the way of reasons, but it's what I got.

[Shadowlord757]

I believe that gdod makes miracles for us.

[YuzuruHitokiri]

I say luck for that one since something took part and he fell in water when there was a chance he could've slid 3 inches to the right and hit a rock and die.
Something acted upon it and changed the situation. :o

Yeah, the concept of coincidence. The man fell in just the right way at just the right time to keep his brain alive. It's that simple.


First of all. Let me say this. I am an atheist. Flame me for it. I think that miracles are real, but some people think that its because of super natural means. I don't hate Chirstians, its just that I hate that they believe one person saved this persons life like 10 times. If this acutally happened by super natural means, why isn't AIDS cured? Why isn't Cancer cured?

*Hands over a flame-retardant suit and a fire extinguisher*
The way I see miracles used here is luck that occurred in a dire situation, and the lucky person who got 'saved' really was flabbergasted about the situation, how else could it not have been God!?
Seriously, look at the Dark Ages... Where was God for the Black Death? Where was he when all of his faithful peasants were slaughtered by an invading army?..
Reilgion has always been used to provide an explanation for the world around people... It was so for the Greeks as well... They worshipped their gods and goddesses in hopes of pleasing them and thus gaining favor. Then they would pray in near-death situations for salvation. Christians do it too, I believe it's called Providence.
To elaborate on the last comment by ASuch, are those diseases not killing thousands upon thousands of people every year? Cancer can be contracted by anybody. Why is it that, on average, they die from it? Sure they may see it disappear...but it WILL come back and it WILL get you eventually!..

[Sabeta]

Here's my take on this subject. For those concerned, this might as well be Science vs. Faith. If you are for science, you will be prone here to say luck. If you are for faith then you are more prone to miracles. That's pretty much how this is going to work, and people's religious views will in fact intersperse themselves through this topic. In general, with regards to Luck vs Miracles, I'm going to say that nobody knows. That's the simple truth. We don't know if Jesus could magically cure people with his hands, or if he was an alien with nanobots. (Bad example, I know) We weren't there. Some of us can claim to have experienced miracles, but was it just dumb luck? For those who are versed in String Theory, you'd say that EVERYTHING is luck. (I only know a very small portion of it, so I wont be getting to deep into it.) Essentially, string theory says that there is finite probability that you take a step forward, and are suddenly on mars, and your next step takes you back to earth. This chance is so small it's not even worth considering, but a chance nonetheless. String Theory drove Albert Einstein insane in his later years, as he tried futilely to disprove it, as in his mind "No God would create a world where things could be left to 'Chance.'"

(Ftr, I do believe most medical advances and many discoveries are made completely by accident. Luck? or a celestial hand guiding them?) Even Stephen Hawking's world renowned Physicist says that we can't prove nor deny the existence of any Deity. " We cannot disprove the existence of a God, but science makes him unnecessary."

I myself am an Atheist, but one who is tolerant of religion since I was once Catholic, and understand the needs and desires for religion. So in my view. If you want to call it insane luck, go ahead, it probably was. If you want to call it a miracle, well I'll disagree, but that's your own prerogative. So long as you don't flame me, or try to convert me, or whatever, we can get along just fine.

TL;DR: We don't know, neither side can prove anything for sure. Get over it, believe in what makes you happy.

[Tbird]

I'm a luck guy all the way. I gamble a lot, I win and I lose.

A dude falling and not dying just means someone somewhere else did fall and die. The thing is, the more miraculous a situation looks the more exposed to it we'll be. And why? Because stories like that give good ratings to the guys with camera/pen in hand covering it... If some dude falls down a well and dies; find his ass in the obituary - not the front page.
And you can never rule out how we as humans have a need to see the magic occurring in the world. A magician's work means nothing if he's in a room of cynics.

But I guess that's no real answer. Where I stand on it is that if there's a chance of something happening, that means it has to happen eventually. The chance of a guy being three inches away from death is remote - granted, but it had to happen at some point.
But of course... statistics mean nothing to the individual. If I'm sat with a flush and a straight draw, with two high cards to the board on 4th street with 4:1 on a call, that means I have got 21 outs and I've got roughly 45%~ chance of winning the hand on the river and getting a lovely pay out at the same time. If some donkey beats me with 2/7 off suit, hitting a 2 on the river ( 7%) that doesn't mean some divine hand guided him... It simply means that he doesn't know how to play and the cards aren't going my way today.
And I guess in life none of us know how to play the game... We just make do with the cards we're given and hope in the end we've done the right thing.

I don't care for science nor religion. There's no denying that both bring a whole lot of good to the world. The holy bible might just be fiction, but one can never deny the power of fiction - hell look at the impact it has had on the world for the passed 2000 years or however long it's been around.
They both bring people hope for something. One brings the ideal of a better life on earth while one boasts eternal paradise.
I don't buy into either of them. With science, you learn something at the end of your school life, when you take it to college you have to relearn everything because the playing field has already changed in a matter of months. However, Science brings visible proof... to a degree.
With the bible... Granted it's constant... It's the same as it always will be. But I can't take the word of a book written by man to explain something beyond man. Occasionally, though, that frame of mind breaks when you see something that you nor anyone else can explain - and then good old religion pops into your mind, and religion has a great way of covering its tracks and answering doubts.
But I don't like that. I don't like things to be fool proof. To me it takes away from its validity. A police man will never buy into a perfect air-tight alibi, and I feel the same way about religion.
At least science notices its fault and changes itself accordingly - but in saying that, that also means we shouldn't believe what they tell us at this point in time because a decade down the line, what we thought we knew will ultimately be made redundant.

... I digress xD.
Luck is where my heart lies. But who knows, maybe someone is planning everything out for us. Maybe there's no reason behind anything and we can all live contently nihilisticly. But I guess we'll never know. And if we die and that's the end? We still won't know.

So just sit back and enjoy whatever you're given or whatever you believe in. If it makes you happy -> do it. If it doesn't -> then stop XD.

[Bowser Ex]

I believe in luck because I always count on luck when I'm trying to get a certain thing or to try to win something.

[Gin]

Well, if we take Mostellor and Diaconis' Law of Truly Large Numbers to be true, then we can extrapolate to Littlewood's Law. Basically, The LoTLN says that if you have a big enough sample size, stuff happens. Littlewood's Law expands on that and says that a miracle (An event with special significance) will occur once in 35 days, assuming event rate is at 1 event/second. This means that while you may THINK that you experience a miracle, it is just coincidence.

[Toffeuy]

Other:
I believe fate is written.

[Black Ice]

If you believe in miracles and something seemingly unnatural happens, of course you're going to think it's another miracle. I haven't seen a single case in which an event couldn't be attributed to luck, but then the miracle-believers continue to call it a miracle.

I don't believe in miracles. I also disagree with the whole "what are the chances of a perfect Earth being created" argument because that isn't even an argument. If there's even the slightest possibility of something happening, given an infinite timespan, it will eventually have to happen.

Or maybe everything is pre-determined because everything that happens, including your brain activity and the thoughts/actions that follow, are all caused by chemicals and molecules reacting with each other...

[Tbird]

I also disagree with the whole "what are the chances of a perfect Earth being created" argument because that isn't even an argument. If there's even the slightest possibility of something happening, given an infinite timespan, it will eventually have to happen.


I like you xD

[darklord]

luck is mealy odds landing in your favor and miracles is slim odds landing in your favor both exist if you define it that way

[game]

hmm, in my own opinion, there are luck and miracles

luck defines events which has a slim chance of happening and is beneficial to the person referring to it as luck, also not expected by most people.

miracle on the other hand is just what you call extremely rare events that you don't expect to happen, what you call the impossible, and cannot be explained. if it can be explained, it's not gonna be called miracle.

imagine yourself living in the past, where there is no medicine, and your tribe suddenly caught a sickness you no one can heal, many of your tribesmen die, suddenly one of you develops a natural immunity to the sickness, what would you call that event? even if the sickness is just fever?

NOTE: while imagining this situation, also think that you do not know what fever is or what medicine is. in other word, your a primate.

[venomrec]

if miracles existed i wouldn't be below average height!!! I believe in luck since i'm just plain lucky when it comes to anything. "even tho i dont give it much thought".

[pup5115]

Miracles.

There is clearly a difference between the 2.

Luck is just a term for achieving one's desired outcome usually in the case of low odds.
Miracles are unexplained, well, miracles caused by what appears to be no reason or by a superior being (you may replace the previous few words with the term "God") without facing any odds whatsoever.