Illithian

Shaymin? Why? Shaymin is fantastic on gravity teams, having access to Seed Flare, but also subseed and grasswhistle.

Anyway, I wouldn't worry about the UU split. Gravity is rare and Smogon doesn't really consider it when doing their tiering.

Also, you can't really use Gravity in UU. The only UU gravity user is Clefable, and then Probopass but hes pretty much useless.

Firstly, Mamoswine is an incredible Salamence counter. Its not hard for him to get in on an Outrage or something and get back with Ice Shard. And Weavile can indeed counter or revenge kill.

It is true that Gyarados can run taunt, but his main counters, Rotom, Celebi, and really any pokemon that has an electric move can take care of him.

See, the thing about Gyarados is that while he can sweep a team, there are lots of pokemon that can take him down when he has +1 DD. Salamence doesn't. With +1, Salamence can easily run through an entire team and the only way to even attempt to take him down is a revenge kill. Very few pokemon can revenge kill Salamence.

Not only that, but we've only talked about the DD sets. The mixed sets for Salamence are arguably even more deadly, and Gyarados can't claim to have any real usable sets aside from DD and resttalk.

Wraith, Mamoswine is the only true Salamence counter in the game. Yes, he is very powerful, but most people don't use him. Without Mamoswine, people have an extremely difficult time taking down Salamence, often having to rely on shaky prediction to kill him. A new person can't rely on that at all.

As for Gyarados, he is easily counterable. His low physical defense and speed is a big problem, being that most choice scarf pokemon will outspeed him and easily OHKO. Not only that, but hes extremely easy to wall. Any physically defensive pokemon simply switch in and Gyarados is forced out. Water STAB may be extremely powerful, but Dragon is only resisted by Steel, and provides much better neutral coverage. Salamence can also wallbreak, which Gyarados cannot.

Gravity, similarly to Trick Room, is very difficult to use because it expires very quickly. While it can create an extremely powerful team, it requires a lot of setup.

Firstly, I would reccomend adding another or even two more Gravity users. They obviously serve more then just that purpose, but Gravity is so short that you'll have just three turns to use it once you switch out, and your reliance upon it being up requires several more users.

Its hard to find good Gravity users though. The only good ones are Blissey, Dusknoir, Clefable, Jirachi, and Smeargle. Dusknoir is too defensive and can't really be used. Smeargle could work, but hes very underwhelming. Clefable is an interesting choice. Her ability makes her a perfect poison switch-in, grants her immunity to Life Orb recoil, and she has access to quite a few suprisingly powerful moves on both the special and physical spectrum.

Specially, she has access to Fire Blast, Blizzard, and Thunder, with special mention to Sing. Physically, she can abuse Toxic Orb and Facade, along with STAB Double Edge and Meteor Mash. Shes a surprising powerhouse. And of course, she has access to Softboiled and other cleric options.

Mamoswine is one of the most effective Gravity abusers in the game. You might notice that EVERY one of Mamoswine's switchins are immune to ground. With Gravity, that immunity is gone, and you can wreak havoc. Bronzong and Skarmory will both fall to Earthquake with Gravity down. Not only that, but with his acceptable speed, Gravity + CB Adamant Earthquake can do a massive number on your opponent's team.

Metagross is also a pokemon you should seriously consider. Gravity boosts Meteor Mash to 100% and Steel + Ground with gravity is resisted only by Shedinja, Ludicolo, and Surskit (lol).

Note to all people who I made sigs/avvies to:

Sorry but I have exceeded the monthly bandwidth of Photobucket, so the images will be recovered on 12th September 2009. Which mean 5 days from now, sorry for the inconvenience.

Toffeuy, uploading all your requests on photobucket is an extremely bad idea unless you have pro. You should always upload requests with either a different photobucket account, tinypic, imageshack, or some other provider that doesn't count towards your bandwidth.

Could you make a signature with: Hippowdon, regirock, and Blissey on the left side, then in the middle but Afrokid, and on the right could you put Heracross, Starmie, and Salamence?

Pleae and thank you.

Sorry for the wait, many of our artists are busy with school.

Blissey? Blissey is the most used pokemon in smogon server. She walls almost every special sweepers and has the highest HP.

What are you talking about? Blissey is 12th most used pokemon, behind Swampert, Gengar, Latias, Rotom-A, Lucario, Infernape, Tyranitar, Metagross, Heatran, Gyarados, Salamence, and Scizor.

Moved.

- Illithian

We are not going to ban Baton Passing, a strategy so hard to execute and so rare, just because its slightly difficult to deal with. Yes, it can sweep teams, but a new person will be swept by a BP team one time before they figure out how to deal with it. Anyway, Varna, as you mentioned, Taunt breaks Baton Pass chains and hits through Substitute.

I'm hesitant to ban Gyarados. Hes not nearly as powerful as Salamence. His main moveset consists of Waterfall, Earthquake, Stone Edge, and/or Ice Fang, along with DD. His massive weakness to one of the most common types makes him easily counterable by more then just the Rotom forms. As such, I don't think he should be banned. Still, I put him up for consideration.

Also, more reasons why not. Comparing their base stats, Salamence is bulkier and faster, has higher base attack and special attack, and same HP. Gyarados has higher SpD, but lower attacking stats. Salamence has the same # of resistances and only one more weakness. Comparing movepools, Salamence has:

Outrage

Earthquake

Fire Blast

Stone Edge

Draco Meteor

Hydro Pump

Crunch

Brick Break

Aqua Tail

Gyarados has:

Waterfall

Stone Edge

Ice Fang

Earthquake

Payback

Avalanche

Bounce

As far as coverage, theres a massive difference. And Salamence gets to use an extremely powerful mixed set to boot.

Gyarados isn't nearly as powerful as Salamence, and unless something can come close to matching him, it isn't a good idea to ban them.

i guess this could work, its a good idea for newbies but i think you might as well just ban ubers and OU completely, anything OU can be devastating if used correctly and i think it would be simply a matter of opinion who gets banned or not, so the only way to be fair would be to ban all OU pokes.

personally ive given up on competitive battling anyway, no one ever follows the rules and if they do its very likely that they will know the game inside and out and you will drawn into a game where every HP and PP count, it will just be switch switch switch until one player gets the upper hand and wins, its just not any fun and renders most pokemon useless.

i guess having this clause would fix a couple of the issues i have with the game but im still not returning to competitive battling.

Competitive battling is a game of skill. Its hard to keep up.

In any case, my argument against this is as such:

Many OU pokemon are spent. They were good in D/P, but the Platinum metagame renders them useless. The fact is, with Platinum, there are a good 6 or 7 pokemon that EVERY team in the game has atleast one of, and most have two. Salamence, Latias, and Scizor are the main ones. Scizor + Latias is extremely deadly as they complement each other quite well. Salamence by itself rips through teams, and often Scizor is paired with it to get rid of the remnants.

Yes, most OU pokemon can be deadly in some way. But the 6 that randomspot mentioned are easy to use and absurdly difficult to counter and get rid of. No other pokemon can hope to match up to that level, in this metagame.

Ubers being banned is a given.

Also, to your original point, how do people not follow the rules? On shoddy its enforced.

Very nice, Enkidu. I like the explosion effect a lot.

Problems I have with it are:

A. The hand at the bottom. It just looks weird. You could have cut out that part.

B. The eyes. They just... look creepy.

C. Well.. I'm not sure, but theres something about it that doesn't work. Its probably the color scheme. I like the effects a lot, but the background seems so monochromatic and it kind of hurts my eyes.

Still, its well done and it looks pretty good.

7.5/10

ho oh lead would destroy, it doesn't have to worry about Sr

Firstly, no, it wouldn't, and anyway there are much better leads.

Secondly, its ridiculous to bring back an old thread like this. If you want to see a VERY long winded discussion about WHY Ho-oh shouldn't be in OU, which took me a while to actually understand, you can look over there.

Fact is, Ho-oh could easily be usable in OU but there are many instances where it would be simply too powerful. Especially on Stall teams. And it would centralize. SR, Rapid Spin, and anti-RS support would become a requirement.

In any case, Locked.

Hey everyone! Shameless bump here, but our old thread has been archived and locked and this is our new one.

You can look at our old thread here:

http://projectpokemon.org/forums/showthread.php?t=956

I agree with randomspot. I posted this late at night and I really didn't have time to think through different possibilities. Your banlist looks fine and makes sense.

However, there is something I'd like to clarify. Its not just the powerhouses that would go on that list. It would also be pokemon that are exceptionally difficult to deal with. I think if one more pokemon should go on that list, its Togekiss.

While not very centralizing, to a new player, Togekiss is devastating and easy to play. Paraflinch is incredibly easy to use and while it is counterable, I think if Togekiss was left alone, it would go on virtually every team. Newer players would have no idea how to predict to get in an Electivire or maybe a Jolteon and then the Togekiss could just switch out. Yes, Togekiss isn't fast, but a bad case of hax can end someone's wandering in competitive battling.

Greencat, I'll try to break down my understanding of your posts so you can be more clear.

Illithian, many of the Pokemon you mentioned in your list couldn't work in Ubers.

Agreed.

Why use Porygon-Z when Rayquaza or Lyogre does the job much much better? The class above HIgh Class, Overpowerd, is for Pokemon that can operate well in both OU and Ubers.

I think this is what threw me off. Overpowered is probably our new name for Ubers. The hypothetical tier between OU and Ubers (which hadn't been named) was for pokemon that were very centralizing in the OU metagame. It had nothing to do with Ubers. It was essentially a banlist for OU. Most of the pokemon I mentioned were quite centralizing in the OU metagame, so banning atleast some of them would make sense for a new player. However, I opposed the idea because experienced players wouldn't like it and it would create disorder.

You misunderstood again. I was also discussing the potential for a tier between OU and Ubers, except that it should be Pokémon that can operate well in both OU and Ubers, like Woubuffet and Garchomp.

Wobbuffet and Garchomp were moved to Ubers not because it was predicted they would function well. In fact, if you read up on the Garchomp suspect, there was a massive opposition that Garchomp would become useless in Ubers. Well, he hasn't. The point of moving Wobbuffet and Garchomp was because they broke the Standard metagame and overcentralised it. Smogon could potentially move any pokemon up to Ubers, so long as it breaks the OU metagame, regardless how it would function in its new tier.

Ubers wasn't created to be a metagame. Its a banlist.

I'm a supporter of "Overpowered / High Class / Middle Class / Low Class." It just appeals to me.

Agreed.

Hello.

This thread came off the "Development of a PP Tier" thread. Essentially, it is a description for a clause that I dubbed the 'Easy Mode' clause that would be for beginners in standard battling.

What it is: The Easy Mode clause is essentially a small list of banned pokemon that currently dominate the Standard metagame. These pokemon would be powerhouses and pokemon that are in general difficult to deal with.

Why it does: New players in the competitive scene often find themselves overwhelmed by the amount of options there are available. What combinations will work? Can I use them? Will the just get beaten down? Unfortunately, because of the way this metagame is designed, new players without much experience in prediction will often resort to using the powerhouses of the metagame. These powerhouses are the tried and true pokemon that are the best of the best. They can sweep like theres no tomorrow. Banning these incredibly powerful pokemon would seriously open up the metagame for less used pokemon to fill in the spots.

Why its useful: Allowing a new player to have a much more free selection of pokemon creates a much more new-player friendly metagame. If people can choose often overlooked pokemon on their teams and get used to the way they work, they can seriously get to know the odder pokemon in the Standard tier, and once they move off the Easy Mode, they'll have a much better appreciation for the less used pokemon and a much better understanding of strategy and prediction.

Another reason it would be useful is it allows new players to easily determine other new players. Experienced battlers probably wouldn't enjoy Easy Mode very much, so newer players could fight other newer players at a fairly equal skill level.

---

Randomspot made an excellent argument, and a revamping of the banlist is due:

Proposed banlist:

Tyranitar

Salamence

Scizor

Latias

Heatran

Togekiss?

Gyarados?

Reasoning:

Tyranitar: With amazing stats in everything except speed, access to a ridiculous move pool full of offensive moves, defensive, team support, and everything else, and a 50% boost in special defense due to sand stream. That's right, even though it's typing gives it tons of weaknesses, that doesn't matter. It soaks up special hits like there's no tomorrow.

Salamence: Yeah, it sucks in uber battling,but who cares? It dominates the current game. Offense? Standard DD. Defense? Well, it gets Roost and Iron Defense. It's also got just decent enough of a special move pool to run special sets. Intimidate means it can take a few hits before going down.

Latias: While I haven't encountered it too much, when I do, I'm usually screwed unless I stop and think for a while.

Scizor: Duh. This guy causes so many Pokemon to switch out, and CB hurts, even if the opponent resists. And if it's running a Sub, stat up, or Baton Pass set, it's pretty much a guarantee that Scizor will get a chance to sub/stat up/Baton Pass.

Heatran: Again, duh. Typing gives it fire immunity, poison immunity, resists to a lot of other stuff, and it's speed is just good enough to be boosted by a scarf. Or you can get sp atk up to ridiculous levels and specs it. Or you can sub up and fire off Will O Wisp to cripple Breloom and other switch ins. Or it can explode.

While not very centralizing, to a new player, Togekiss is devastating and easy to play. Paraflinch is incredibly easy to use and while it is counterable, I think if Togekiss was left alone, it would go on virtually every team. Newer players would have no idea how to predict to get in an Electivire or maybe a Jolteon and then the Togekiss could just switch out. Yes, Togekiss isn't fast, but a bad case of hax can end someone's wandering in competitive battling.

What do you think of this clause as a whole? Please vote in the poll.

Illithian, many of the Pokemon you mentioned in your list couldn't work in Ubers. Why use Porygon-Z when Rayquaza or Lyogre does the job much much better? The class above HIgh Class, Overpowerd, is for Pokemon that can operate well in both OU and Ubers.

You misinterpreted the point. I wasn't talking about moving them to ubers. We were discussing the potential for a tier between OU and Ubers. Thats when we came up with the Easy Mode clause, which I do think has potential.

Moving on. Bob, that project is very contradictory to this thread. We were trying to streamline the tiers by removing BL completely, and you want to move that many pokemon into it? I'm sorry, but that cannot work. Of that entire list of pokemon, there are some of them that are too powerful for the UU environment. The rest look like you're trying to remove every powerhouse there is, which is remarkably similar to the middle tier idea between uber and OU. Instead of what you're doing, which looks like were going back in time to D/P smogon, we should concentrate on moving pokemon between UU and NU until there is a solid metagame similar to Standard.

Note that having a SMALL banlist for UU isn't really a problem.

By the way, this Tier Discussion forum is here for a reason. You should really create a new thread discussing your idea and asking for suggestions & support. Theres a lot of work to be done in your project and it has a ton of potential, but this thread is cluttered with different ideas. I'm going to make a thread about the Easy Mode clause, and that discussion can go on over there.

This PP Tier idea needs to split up in a big way so we can get started with testing and actually get somewhere.

Indeed. I've used apophysis for fractals before...but I noticed the fractals came out looking a bit rough...

You have to change the rendering quality.

I'm completely against having a tier between Overpowered and High Class. You might as well just send all the 'standard' pokemon into BL, because almost every pokemon has a good argument as to why its incredibly powerful. These are pokemon that all could easily be argued for something above HC (high class):

Blissey, Bronzong, Electivire, Gyarados, Heatran, Infernape, Jolteon, Flygon, Metagross, Mamoswine, Magnezone, Salamence, Scizor, Porygon-Z, Rotom-A, Togekiss, Suicune, Lucario, and Zapdos.

Yes, I realize thats still not all of HC, but think about this. If you get rid of Metagross, you have to get rid of all the other pokemon who have moves on par with Metagross. Lucario, Scizor, Salamence, Togekiss, Mamoswine, and Magnezone would be a minimum. The beneficial effects of that is it allows people to use less used pokemon that are outclassed by the powerhouses, but it also means that stall will be the best team strategy in the game.

However, implementing a clause called "Easy Mode" that bans all the powerhouses is a much more convenient idea. Experienced competitive battlers would rather not have to deal with ANOTHER tier. Instead, newer players could enjoy a much more open metagame where you could use your favorite pokemon and actually succeed. It would be a metagame that would be remarkably reminiscent of D/P.

I think our goal should be towards 3 tiers, High (Overpowered) Middle (Standard) Low (Well... smogon's uu/nu)

I like Varna's set more.

A streamlining of the tiers was part of the plan Bob was talking about, Illithian. I don't see why we can't test things on our own after that is accomplished, though. What is this stuff about "falling behind"? I wasn't aware we were on some sort of strict schedule. This is a hobby, not a job.

- Overpowered

- High Class

- Low Class

- Underpowered

Just a suggestion.

I definitely like Overpowered as opposed to ubers, and I definitely think that 4 tier set would work. I must apologize, I misinterpreted what bob and you were talking about; I was under the impression that we were just going to slowly change in smogon fashion as opposed to a big change first, then testing. In that case, I agree.

However, I still say that the entire competitive community here should have some say. We are not a very large community so that shouldn't be too much of a problem, and if the vote is too controversial, of course we could make it more private among more experienced battlers.

I use apophysis for fractals.

You can make stuff like this:

Bob, if you intend to do it that way, no changes will ever be made. Smogon does it in that exact same way, except they have thousands of battlers who'll constantly report up on changes to the metagame. If our small community tries to do it their way, we'll just end up falling behind. Here, opinion can heavily influence what a person thinks of a pokemon. A person could make an extremely convincing argument for having Scizor in ubers, but it will never happen. Its pointless to drag out a process like that.

What really needs to happen is a streamlining of the tiers. Bob, whatever preconcieved ideas you have about the tiering system are out, because SCV wants to throw it all out the window. The streamlining should look something moderately like this:

- Ubers

- High Class

- Low Class

- Underpowered

This may look a lot like Smogon's current tiers, but several things would happen. Firstly, smogon's UU and NU tiers are hugely more affected by usage then OU is. As such, a streamlining of UU and NU could easily take place. Low Class would be a large set of pretty much every pokemon currently in UU and NU that is powerful enough to fit into the already created UU metagame, which would become the Low Class. High Class wouldn't really be streamlined much, but the banlist for it (BL) would probably be spread between High and Low Class. The Uber tier won't really be designed around the idea of a metagame, because the ubers metagame is so volatile and prone to changes that it can easily adapt. The Uber tier will be more thought of as a banlist for High Class, pokemon that affect the metagame too strongly.

Scizor and Bullet Punch has a massive impact on the metagame because of circumstances. It so happens that an extremely powerful revenge killer has been missing from the metagame for some time. Scizor gets STAB and Technician, an extremely potent combination, coming off 130 base attack, makes for an extremely strong revenge killer. He has his own problems, but they are outweighed by the fact that little else can claim what he can. However, Scizor's problems, including his 4x weakness to fire, incredibly low speed, and inability to actually do all that much outside of U-turn and Bullet Punch isn't nearly enough to land him a spot in ubers.

Some similar thought process to that would be used in determining ubers. The people who vote would be absolutely anyone who has played on shoddy. We can't and won't let random people vote on our tiers, but we should let all the competitive battlers have some say.

Nice job, Codemonkey.

Seemingly, it works. All data input works fine. You should probably have some sort of a nature, IV, EV, and shinyness editor. Else it works fine. The moveset editor is really well done.

Conduct a double battle with Ditto and Smeargle on your side, making sure Smeargle still has sketch. Have Ditto transform into Smeargle, then have Ditto sketch the proper move. After the battle, Ditto will have the sketched move instead of Transform. Use a Heart Scale to relearn Transform, and repeat the process. In this way, Ditto can learn any move.

I'm fairly certain this is the glitch. Its not all that hard to do, because there are plenty of locations ingame where there are double battles. Make sure your Smeargle knows the moves beforehand, to save time.

In any case, you'd be better off just using Pokesav to have ditto learn the proper moves.

Do you have any way of getting save file data to your computer? Thats the only way you could conserve the save data. Even then, if its busted enough it still might not work.