PID Type None Discrepancy?

[ILuvChinPokomon]

So I've noticed that some Pokemon that I've caught have a PID Type of None and no origin seed. Whereas others will have a PID Type of Xoroshiro and an origin seed.

This is true even for Pokemon caught in the same way. For example, I caught an Espeon in Legends Arceus in a space-time distortion and it had a PID of Xoroshiro and an origin seed. However, I later caught an Eevee in a space-time distortion and it's PID was None with no origin seed.

What does this mean and why the discrepancy? If I were to reroll the PID and Encryption Constant of the Espeon would that make it illegal now? Do Pkhex rerolls account for PID Type and Origin Seed? 

Edited May 24 by ILuvChinPokomon

[Kaphotics]

Due to how spawns work in PLA for individual point spawners (imagine little dots scattered throughout the map), the first spawn is generated from a 64-bit seed which can be easily reversed. Spawns that are generated immediately after will reuse the same RNG state, which is an uncertain number of advances past the initial seed, and can't be reverse correlated.

Presence of a detected 64-bit seed only implies that it was verifiably from the first spawn; if the spawner can spawn multiple, then it is valid to have a lack of a detected seed.

Does PKHeX reroll account for PIDIV, to try to align to a seed or legal value correlations? No.

[ILuvChinPokomon]

On 5/24/2024 at 1:27 PM, Kaphotics said:

Due to how spawns work in PLA for individual point spawners (imagine little dots scattered throughout the map), the first spawn is generated from a 64-bit seed which can be easily reversed. Spawns that are generated immediately after will reuse the same RNG state, which is an uncertain number of advances past the initial seed, and can't be reverse correlated.

Presence of a detected 64-bit seed only implies that it was verifiably from the first spawn; if the spawner can spawn multiple, then it is valid to have a lack of a detected seed.

Does PKHeX reroll account for PIDIV, to try to align to a seed or legal value correlations? No.

Interesting. I can see how that works for fixed/static Pokemon that are guaranteed spawns, but what about the Espeon I caught in a space-time distortion, that's not a guranteed spawn so why does that have a seed as opposed to the Eevee caught in the same distortion?

Also, this may be a dumb question, but if Pkhex reroll doesn't account for legal value correlations in PID-IV, what's the point? How would I go about making my mons legal then? RNG Reporter hasn't been updated since 2017.

Edited May 25 by ILuvChinPokomon

[Kaphotics]

4 hours ago, ILuvChinPokomon said:

Interesting. I can see how that works for fixed/static Pokemon that are guaranteed spawns, but what about the Espeon I caught in a space-time distortion, that's not a guranteed spawn so why does that have a seed as opposed to the Eevee caught in the same distortion?

Also, this may be a dumb question, but if Pkhex reroll doesn't account for legal value correlations in PID-IV, what's the point? How would I go about making my mons legal then? RNG Reporter hasn't been updated since 2017.

A point spawner spawns `n` quantity of pokemon. Distortions spawn packs (groups) of pokemon, therefore `n` is not 1. For fixed/static encounters that need a correlation, they are spawned w/ quantity of 1.

What's the point? Making sure things are legal. The amount of logic needed to do a "smart" reroll of every single PIDIV for every single encounter is more effort than it is worth -- it is not a simple PIDIV correlation, there can be other values correlated like OT Gender/Version (CHANNEL Jirachi), Height/Weight/Scale (raids), original Nature, ability... just use the encounter database to regenerate from a template.

[ILuvChinPokomon]

18 hours ago, Kaphotics said:

A point spawner spawns `n` quantity of pokemon. Distortions spawn packs (groups) of pokemon, therefore `n` is not 1. For fixed/static encounters that need a correlation, they are spawned w/ quantity of 1.

I see, so the first pokemon spawned in the group in a distortion might have an origin seed, but not the second. Hence why Espeion might have the origin seed but not Eevee?

18 hours ago, Kaphotics said:

What's the point? Making sure things are legal. The amount of logic needed to do a "smart" reroll of every single PIDIV for every single encounter is more effort than it is worth -- it is not a simple PIDIV correlation, there can be other values correlated like OT Gender/Version (CHANNEL Jirachi), Height/Weight/Scale (raids), original Nature, ability... just use the encounter database to regenerate from a template.

So my question is how do we make it legal? Lets say I have a mon that I've caught in game and then edited in Pkhex. I changed the nature and IV's, rerolled the PID/EC and Pkhex says it's legal, there are no flags. But is it ACTUALLY legal? Because this would not account for stuff like origin seed and if it were actually possible to encounter a Pokemon with these stats at that time/location in the game, correct? So technically, if some software investigated far enough they'd see it's not legal? Or is there no way to trace that?

IIRC the whole point of RNG Reporter was to generate valid seeds and PIDs so that the edited mon would match what could have actually been caught in the game at that date/time with that TID/SID etc. Pkhex doesn't have anything built-in to it's system like that as far as I know.

Edited May 26 by ILuvChinPokomon

[Kaphotics]

4 hours ago, ILuvChinPokomon said:

I see, so the first pokemon spawned in the group in a distortion might have an origin seed, but not the second. Hence why Espeion might have the origin seed but not Eevee?

So my question is how do we make it legal? Lets say I have a mon that I've caught in game and then edited in Pkhex. I changed the nature and IV's, rerolled the PID/EC and Pkhex says it's legal, there are no flags. But is it ACTUALLY legal? Because this would not account for stuff like origin seed and if it were actually possible to encounter a Pokemon with these stats at that time/location in the game, correct? So technically, if some software investigated far enough they'd see it's not legal? Or is there no way to trace that?

IIRC the whole point of RNG Reporter was to generate valid seeds and PIDs so that the edited mon would match what could have actually been caught in the game at that date/time with that TID/SID etc. Pkhex doesn't have anything built-in to it's system like that as far as I know.

No. When the game (PLA) spawns a group of pokemon, it has a 64-bit seed, which then creates the first pokemon, and then creates the second, and then... 

It is mathematically possible to figure out the original 64-bit seed from a first-generated pokemon, but the successive pokemon are infeasible to trace because the RNG (xoroshiro128++) has been advanced a sufficient amount for it to not be feasible to find. If you are fabricating data, it's up to you to fabricate it correctly, if that is what you care about. Programming every single edge case is not in my desire.

RNG Reporter was made to help people RNG abuse the games, not to cheat and just generate the Pokémon. Sure, the information is useful to cheat with, but that was not the intent of the program.

[ILuvChinPokomon]

2 hours ago, Kaphotics said:

RNG Reporter was made to help people RNG abuse the games, not to cheat and just generate the Pokémon. Sure, the information is useful to cheat with, but that was not the intent of the program.

My question is whether a generated Pokemon would be indistinguishable from an RNG'd Pokemon if edited correctly in Pkhex and then given a rerolled PID and EC?

[Kaphotics]

1 hour ago, ILuvChinPokomon said:

My question is whether a generated Pokemon would be indistinguishable from an RNG'd Pokemon if edited correctly in Pkhex and then given a rerolled PID and EC?

No (PLA), because just simply assigning a random PID/EC does not result in a valid correlation. If someone ever had a computer that could bruteforce all combinations, then they could see that it didn't come from a possible seed.

[ILuvChinPokomon]

48 minutes ago, Kaphotics said:

No (PLA), because just simply assigning a random PID/EC does not result in a valid correlation. If someone ever had a computer that could bruteforce all combinations, then they could see that it didn't come from a possible seed.

Ahh...ok thanks! That's what I wanted to know. So basically Pokemon created with Pkhex can't be legal. Not unless you RNG a possible seed and copied the values I guess. Unfortunately there is no RNG Reporter for PLA