Kyurem...

[aquaguy34]

Just recently, Smogon had decided to move Kyurem from OU to UU. When I saw this I was wondering "WHAT'S WRONG WITH THEM," So, What is your opinion on the matter?

[randomspot555]

It's determined by usage. That's what UU means. If you think it can compete in an OU envrionment, you can still use it.

[wraith89]

The flaw about Smogon's tier list making is that it's entirely based on usage. Right now, if you looked at the usage statistics, Kyurem ended up at 102. I believe the cut off line is much above that number, which is why Kyurem got put down to UU. Right now, the statistics list looks so unbelievably strange, it isn't even funny. Gimmicks are apparently used a lot more than regular Pokemon are supposed to (like Aron at 148... what the heck?), which is why it is quite questionable. I'd wait until the currents calm down and things become stabilised. Where did you hear this btw?

 | 102  | Kyurem          |   7309 |  1.2196 | 

Also, there is the whole thing about "Ice can't be OU" subtle bias that's happening because "Ice is lol defensive type".

As for Kyurem's actual performance, it isn't bad at all. It got underwhelmed by its two subordinates, but Ice + Dragon offensive combination works pretty well, as Dragon hits many things neutrally and Ice hits quite a bit of things super effectively. It has the tools to take down opposing Steels in the form of Focus Blast or some run Hidden Power Fire. It can bait in Scizor and strike it down with HP Fire by carrying a Babiri Berry. Glaciate works well for slowing foes down... though it is an underwhelming signature move. It is also a great wallbreaker due to it having the same Atk and SpA. I know... Kyurem going from OU to UU off a usage list looks bizarre, but if that's where they're going, that's where they're going >_>

If Kyurem ends up "too strong for UU", it will end up in BL.

[aquaguy34]

That's the main reason why I don't like Smogon's tier system due to the fact it's based on how often a Pokemon is used. The only real reason why Blaziken is in Uber is just because of Speed boost which makes no sense since that just means Blaziken is faster.

[randomspot555]

That's the main reason why I don't like Smogon's tier system due to the fact it's based on how often a Pokemon is used. The only real reason why Blaziken is in Uber is just because of Speed boost which makes no sense since that just means Blaziken is faster.

It makes perfect sense since no one really uses Blaziken for anything else. And giving it a boost in speed makes it that much better.

While some people always nitpick about how Smogon's tier system works, I think it says a lot that no other site has gotten the reputation they have. There's practically nowhere else to go that has the influence, members, or organized effort that they have.

Usage based statistics are honestly the best way to go, because theorymonning just leaves everything to subjectivity.

As for "Pokemon X is UU?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?! WTF?!?!?!?!?!?" that's just what happens in the early stages of a generation, especially for UU where stuff doesn't get sorted out till much later.

[wraith89]

That's the main reason why I don't like Smogon's tier system due to the fact it's based on how often a Pokemon is used. The only real reason why Blaziken is in Uber is just because of Speed boost which makes no sense since that just means Blaziken is faster.

Problem with this is... Infernape made Blaziken look worse in Gen IV because of that one little thing: that speed. You already know how well Infernape breaks walls, despite the fact its attack power from both sides are "mediocre" at best. Now look at Blaziken's attack and special attack. They're HUGE. In Gen IV UU it was one of the most feared wallbreakers alongside Nidoking, but its main problem was it could get revenged easily due to that low speed. Choice it and you're locked to one attack. Now how to solve that problem? Add speed with Speed Boost! But um... wasn't that overkill? Pretty much. Remember when people were complaining about Blaziken lacking Close Combat? How about we give him a base 130 STAB move in the form of HI JUMP KICK (10 base power boost since last Gen... wow) and call it a day? Now name me anything that can switch into a + 2 (Swords Dance) Flare Blitz/Hi Jump Kick/Stone Edge (and don't say Unaware Quagsire). Yes, a + 2 Hi Jump Kick can OHKO-2HKO most bulky waters like Swampert or Suicune. That is quite scary. Not to mention you're not revenging this guy, not with Speed Boost. Well, you can pack Azumarill and all, but you don't have a counter. You're forced to sacrifice something. Gamefreak has their ways of "balancing things out" and they overdid this guy. Heh. Thankfully, Hi Jump Kick has a huge penalty and one Protect or a Ghost switch in can mess with Blaziken, BUT as usual, you have to be careful of the other moves, which is why there is no real counter to Speed Boost Blaziken. Alternatively, people can Baton Pass that whole SD/Speed Boosts to someone else in the team. Won't that be scary?

Going back to what randomspot said, the whole tier thing would be quite subjective if we were doing it some other way. I mean, I'd like it in some other way, but we have no choice. It seems they have no other way but to use usage statistics to determine tierage. But I think we can all conclude April's statistics are inconclusive and we need to wait a few more months until things are more stable.

[randomspot555]

Alternatively, people can Baton Pass that whole SD/Speed Boosts to someone else in the team. Won't that be scary?

Baton Pass is an egg move,and the DW Speed Boost Torchic is an event distribution and is male only, so it's ability can't be passed down to babies and thus, no egg moves.

If it ever was able to breed, now THAT would be INCREDIBLY broken.

[wraith89]

Baton Pass is an egg move,and the DW Speed Boost Torchic is an event distribution and is male only, so it's ability can't be passed down to babies and thus, no egg moves.

If it ever was able to breed, now THAT would be INCREDIBLY broken.

Oh yeah. Male. Same deal with Mamoswine :|

Yep. That would be incredibly broken. I guess the only thing stopping it from Trap Chandelure (Dream World Tier) destroying it is that shaky 80% accurate Stone Edge then.

[aquaguy34]

Or a very useful Trick Room team...

[randomspot555]

Or a very useful Trick Room team...

Trick Room requires a turn to set up. Most Pokemon are 2HKOed by Blaziken, and it'll take two hits minimum (one when it switches into Blaziken, one while setting up Trick Room)

And even if a Trick Room team did counter Speed Boost Blaziken, you're actually suggesting MAKING AN ENTIRE THEMED TEAM to counter ONE POKEMON. Sounds like overcentralization to me.

[Tbird]

Blaziken uncounterable -> Uber

As for Kyurem... Well, yeah that's just going to be scary in UU. I am taking a wide berth of UU at the moment. It's craziness. Give it like 2 - 3 months of testing and they'll have a solid BL tier. Then we can all go and play a nice clean game of UU.

The tier system does suck at the beginning, but once stuff gets voted out then we'll be all nice. I just hope they don't be as stupid as to Vote out Chomp and Mence again. And this time, ban Soul Dew not the twins. There's actually some sort of balance with all these dragons in at the moment, remove one of them and it's going to be Gen IV all over again.

[wraith89]

Now did Blaziken just hijack this thread?

Since the original topic went astray, I'll lock this for now. Tell me if there are any objections.

Remember people, the tier system at the moment is a joke at worst and inconclusive at best. It's too early to decide.

(Now that makes me wonder why Machamp isn't given much attention, as it pretty much survives ANYTHING and can KO anything it wants to, requiring a sacrifice... but there's enough fighters to go by methinks).

Edited May 16, 2011 by wraith89