Triple Dragon/Steel Offense

[Silent Storm]

Titanic Terror - Triple Dragon & Steel Team

(This forum needs more Triple Dragon & Steel teams).

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Change-Log

• Metagross over Scizor.
  
• CM Latias over CS Latias.
  
• Occa Berry over Leftovers on Jirachi .
  
• HP Grass is now being used over Explosion on Heatran.
  
• Substitute over Hydro Pump, HP losing me too many games =/.
  
• Testing a new Salamence spread.
  
• Testing a new Jirachi set and considering going back to Scizor.
  
• OLD MIXMENCE. =O
  
  

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Introduction

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The team at glance is not all that different from TAY's Pride & Prejudice team as far as member selection is concerned (then again, what triple dragon team isn't like that team). With this I present a more offensive and modernized (in my opinion) triple dragon & steel team built specifically for the standard ladder. The team is pretty basic and straight forward using various dragon and steel types switch in with ease and do heavy damage with a slice of originality. If I were to participate in a major tournament where I could only use one team, this is the team I would use over the others as it has the most success.

Main issues I have encountered:

• Aside from the many resistances this team holds, I don't like the lack of speed (most of it is fixed when I DD though).
  
• Gyarados, Latias and Salamence once they set up can be a pain to handle.
  
• I don't like the use of two choice item users sometimes.
  
• The team can be gay to face in mirror-like matches lol (rare but still annoying).
  

Main highlights of the team:

• The team has a lot of resistances, does not care about Stealth Rock.
  
• The team turned out to be somewhat different to the standard Triple Dragon teams out there so I am happy.
  
• Dragon and Steel are my favourite types.
  
• The team is now different to TAY's team. =)
  

Other notes (Misc):

• All members bar Salamence do not care about Stealth Rock
  
• Everyone bar Kingdra evade Toxic Spikes and a not really effected by Spikes, major plus against Stall teams.
  
• I might change Jirachi for Metagross and try the standard DD set for Salamence who fits nicely on this team.
  

At Glance

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General Strategy

Jirachi starts the game, with Thunder Wave on Jirachi I have a more reliable way of passing around paralysis to everything not ground types, this unfortunately has lead to me not being able to hit stuff like Swampert (who is slow anyway) and co but because of Thunder Wave's ability to reliably cripple just about anything threatening while not having to rely sorely on Serene Grace is welcome. Next up after I paralysis anything not ground I begin to set up Stealth Rocks and do as much damage as I can with Jirachi and Kingdra. Fire Punch on Jirachi does not leave me completely helpless to steel types any more, but I have had to get rid of U-Turn (which never was useful). Latias is the main special sweeper, she contributes to the no set up game I have going by firing off +1 Dragon Pulses and Surfs making it very difficult for others to set up. The person to get a sweeping going is mostly Kingdra as he is does not care about switching into Stealth Rock and can evade status with Lum Berry or continue its onslaught after Lum heals confusion. Taunt Heatran is one of the Pokemon I use to beat Stall plus it adds some element of surprise to my team, because Heatran is normally seen as a choice scarf user people normally send in their Blissey or anything else that resists fire blast, at this point I taunt either ruining their chance of setting up or healing off damage, with Explosion and Life Orb I should be able to take out or at least weaken stall.

I am sort of torn on Salamence, as the team is fairly new as far as changes are concerned I generally don't know if Salamence is a detriment to this team, the standard MixMence set has always been my favourite when it comes to dealing damage without setting up, as I am using it over my DD Mence I have lost some speed and power for fast wall breaking without the need to use one turn to set up. So far Salamence has been working wonderfully so far though. To summarize, the goal here is to never allow or at the very least limits foes from finding opportunities to freely come in and set up for a sweep, with half my team being able to deal massive damage after one boost and the rest stop others from setting up on them (Taunt on Heatran, Thunder Wave on Jirachi) offensive teams are going to have issues setting up and sweeping.

In-Depth Look

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Jirachi @ Shuca Berry / Occa Berry

Ability: Serene Grace

EVs: 80 HP | 252 Atk | 176 Spe

Nature: Speed (+Spe, -SpAtk)

• Iron Head | Zen Headbutt
  
• Thunder Wave
  
• Fire Punch
  
• Stealth Rock
  

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Set Analysis & Overall Rating:

My pride and joy Jirachi lead, I was talking with August yesterday about the team via PM and he recommended I use the following move set and evs for Jirachi 252 Atk / 200 Spe / 56 HP Jirachi with Iron Head / Fire Punch / Twave / U turn, the set itself ran smoothly in this rather offensive team but I decided to switch U-Turn for Stealth Rock as all my members rely on stealth rock to score the necessary KOs, plus I never liked U-Turn on Jirachi.

This is the best lead I have used so far to the point where I am including him on nearly all my teams, the beauty of this lead is that nothing can reliably set up on him without receiving Thunder Wave, he can still accomplish parahax plus he is able to set up stealth rock. After I set up stealth rock I then use T-Wave unsuspecting ghost types or anything else coming in to the take the somewhat unreliable Body Slam, after that I Iron Head / Zen Headbutt them to oblivion.

Jirachi's has been EVed to top Lucario in speed and use Fire Punch, sometimes getting a burn hax switch serene grace, the most disappointing thing is even with Life Orb I am unsuccessful in KOing Lucario. I was going for an offensive lead that could not be set up on, Jirachi's bulk, speed and move pool made him the perfect lead for this team. This Jirachi however has some issues with power, the lead is not powerful enough for my liking (he even fails to OHKO Lucario), though flinching is more than enough for this lead to be effective and weakening opposing I have actually considered running Life Orb for extra power.

In terms of synergy Jirachi being a steel means he can cover my dragon's weaknesses to ice and dragon moves, I normally use him in tandem with Latias because it Latias not only evades ground moves while resisting fire Latias also has access to Recover, so does not mind switching into Stealth Rock every time, the problem with pairing him with Salamence is that Salamence does not last long because of Stealth Rock slowly chipping away at his health every time he comes in, Life Orb is also an issue so I tend to try and save Salamence for later thus avoiding this combo.

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Vs Common Leads

| 1 | Azelf | 61204 | 7.47 | Funny thing is as they expect me to switch out I in fact stay in and thunder wave, thus rendering any attempt at beating my lead useless.

| 2 | Metagross | 58401 | 7.13 | A risky lead to handle, Fire Punch doesn't do that much to Metagross (doesn't even KO Lucario) so I switch out.

| 3 | Jirachi | 43219 | 5.27 | They switch out most of the time because they expect me to have my own CS, the times they stay in to Fire Punch I thunder wave hoping to survive the first thunder wave, at this time they switch out meaning easy SR for me.

| 4 | Swampert | 42630 | 5.20 | I switch out most of the time as I lack Body Slam so I can't hit him with anything, I sometimes try and burn hax him but thats when I am sure I can get SR down.

| 5 | Aerodactyl | 39643 | 4.84 | Hmm another tricky lead to handle, if I had Body Slam I could have parahaxed on his SR, I set up and switch out.

| 6 | Infernape| 33611 | 4.10 | Can't beat it =/, I switch out expecting a Fire Blast to Kingdra hoping it misses.

| 7 | Hippowdon | 25334 | 3.09 | Another lead I cannot do much to, Latias comes in surfs though.

| 8 | Ninjask | 23647 | 2.89 | Too weak to do anything meaningful to me, as they are normally seen on Baton Pass teams I thunder wave as they pass out while lauging.

| 9 | Bronzong | 23461 | 2.86 | I set up and Fire Punch/Thunder Wave, if Fire Punch burns him then cool I guess.

| 10 | Roserade | 19892 | 2.43 | Sleep Powder screws this set up, sad but I end up sacrificing my lead, Toxic Spikes does shit to my team and sleep clause protects me for an easy Salamence set up. =D

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Overall Rating

Sex Appeal: ****

Explosiveness: ****

Sweepingness: ***

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Kingdra @ Lum Berry

Ability: Swift Swim

EVs: 6 HP | 252 Atk | 252 Spe

Nature: Naughty (+Atk, -SpDef)

• Outrage
  
• Dragon Dance
  
• Substitute
  
• Waterfall
  

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Set Analysis & Overall Rating:

I have finally found a reason for using Kingdra on my team, though it seems like the most obvious choice when it comes to triple dragon teams, I went ahead and chose to run a different kind of Kingdra set rather than going the predictable route and using sub+lum dd. To be perfectly honest I have never liked having Substitute + Lum Berry on Kingdra, its too much set up for my liking plus I would much rather have Kingdra do as much damage as possible without being somewhat walled by SkarmBliss, Lum Berry in my opinion is enough protection for Kingdra as Kingdra after one DD does enough damage for me, especially when I am facing a rain dance team.

Kingdra has been EVed to resemble the standard DD Salamence spread, this enables Kingdra to perform some slight wall breaking. I figured that taking a small amount of speed wouldn't hurt Kingdra's chance at sweeping as after a DD he out speeds quite a few top Pokemon anyways (if they are not holding scarf), plus with Kingdra's bulk, type and lack of Life Orb I am able to get at least two DDs, which is more than enough. Kingdra only has one weakness which is resisted by half of the team, being a Water Dragon means he has no issues switching in and out.

My main issue with Kingdra is of course Hydro Pump, it has slightly lower accuracy than Fire Blast which causes me to miss some 2HKOs against Skarmory (who later ruins my sweep with WhirlWind). This has made me consider using Surf over Hydro Pump and consider investing in some more Special Attack, Hydro Pump though is the better option I like Surf in still being able to hit Hippowden with more special attack investment hard while having great accuracy (not a lot of misses), apart from that I have issues with Kingdra's addition to the team, his speed after a boost, great attack and coverage over nearly everything bar Empoleon and Shedninja has made Kingdra one of my best Pokemon.

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Overall Rating

Sex Appeal: ****

Explosiveness: ****

Sweepingness: ***

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Metagross @ Life Orb

Ability: Clear Body

EVs: 112 HP | 252 Atk | 12 Def | 132 Spe

Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SpAtk)

• Meteor Mash
  
• Agility
  
• Earthquake
  
• Thunderpunch
  

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Set Analysis & Overall Rating:

Agilty Metagross is one of the best late game Pokemon I have ever used in the game thus far. I still prefer Salamence in the looks department but and coverage but Metagross resistances and great offensive stats is just too good to pass up. Stathakis recommended this set to give my team more offensive power, after a very long session on shoddy (followed by nice Maccy D dinner) he seems to work much better than Scizor while being faster than just about everything after I use Agility.

I find Metagross normally coming in after a Pokemon has died or when something like Salamence uses a dragon move (outrage) and then gaining a agility boost, once his speed has increased I attempt to sweep with my three moves. The best situation is when Salamence is stuck in Outage because of Meteor Mash powering up Metagross's physical attack. I chose to go with Thunderpunch over the over moves because Gyarados and friends where giving me hell, Thunderpunch somewhat solves me issues with bulky waters not named Swampert, can hit Gyarados for super effective damage and has the best coverage out of all the sets, I was considering going with Ice Punch because of Rotom but keeping Metagross in on Rotom was a bad idea anyway + I have other ways of dealing with that damn Pokemon.

I like the power Metagross adds to the team, though I hate the ground weakness he adds, Latias and Salamence both are able to evade the weakness but Salamence never lasts long + Latias has scarf meaning she more susceptible to Pursuit, later down the line I might go with a pure attacking Latias to help with this problem but right now I am loving the revenge killing power she adds. Pairing him up with Kingdra helps in baiting one shot dragon moves (Draco Meteor/Outrage) to give me easy set up but he normally is able use Agility without having to use Kingdra s bait.

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Overall Rating

Sex Appeal: ****

Explosiveness: ****

Sweepingness: ***

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Salamence @ Life Orb

Ability: Intimidate

EVs: 12 Atk | 240 SpA | 252 Spe

Nature: Naive (+Spe, -SpDef)

• Flamethrower | Fire Blast
  
• Roost
  
• Draco Meteor
  
• Brick Break | Earthquake
  

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Set Analysis & Overall Rating:

(Old) MixMence is one of the most destructive Pokemon I have on my team in my opinion as well as the most destructive in the metagame. I have gone through Mixed Dragon Dancer set to Standard DD with Dragon Claw to DD with Roost to New Mixmence, while all of them had their merits, Mix Dancer was walled to death by levitating steel types, DD with Dragon Claw was meh and slow without a boost, DD with Roost lacked the ability to hit both special and physical walls while New MixMence being the best of the bunch in my opinion died quickly when facing stall teams cause of lack of roost, Old Mixmence is fast like New Mixmence but also has the ability to defeat a large quantity of stall with recovery as well as still beating Blissey, only problem being he can't take on Cress (which is not important). Roost has given me more insurance against Lucario (if I can prevent set up) as Lucario could beat Salamence under standstorm with Stealth Rock.

Draco Meteor is destructive, I am blown away by how amazing it is when the special walls have been defeated. so much damage. Brick Break is better than Earthquake + Outrage here as it allows mence to hit Blissey for the 2HKO and it defeats Lucario after Stealth Rock. Tyranitar is also defeated 90% of the time. I have a solid offensive core with Salamence, Metagross & Latias, Intimidate is a godsend in soaking up damage coming from any physical threat. Like Kingdra, I pair Salamence up with a steel type that can easily set up on dragons spamming outrage, Metagross springs to mind as being one of the main steel types as he can set up with agility and cause more chaos. Salamence's stealth rock weakness has tempted me to go and use Roost over something but as Salamence comes in late game most of the time the SR weakness doesn't even matter because as the opponent's team is already weakened to the point where Draco Meteor, Outrage and Earthquake (when I am using it) can easily clean house with ease.

Damage Calculations:

Life Orb Draco Meteor vs 252 HP / 0 SpD Impish Hippowdon: 81.67% - 96.43%

Life Orb Draco Meteor vs 252 HP / 0 SpD Impish Gliscor: 93.50% - 110.45%

Life Orb Draco Meteor vs 252 HP / 0 SpD Relaxed Swampert: 71.29% - 83.91%

Life Orb Draco Meteor vs 252 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Scizor (Common Steel-type switch-in): 45.64% - 54.07%

Life Orb Draco Meteor vs 252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Zapdos: 75.00% - 88.28%

Life Orb Draco Meteor vs 252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Suicune: 57.43% - 67.82%

Life Orb Brick Break vs 252 HP / 0 Def Adamant Tyranitar: 84.16% - 100.00%

Life Orb Brick Break vs 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Blissey: 46.78% - 55.18%

Life Orb Fire Blast vs 252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Celebi: 73.76% - 87.13%

Life Orb Fire Blast vs 252 HP / 80 SpD Sassy Bronzong: 66.27% - 78.11%

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Overall Rating

Sex Appeal: ****

Explosiveness: ****

Sweepingness: *****

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Heatran @ Life Orb / Expert Belt / Shuca berry

Ability: Flash Fire

EVs: 6 HP | 252 SpA | 252 Spe

Nature: Naive (+Spe, -SpDef)

• Fire Blast
  
• Taunt
  
• Earth Power
  
• Hidden Power [Grass]
  

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Set Analysis & Overall Rating:

Life Orb Heatran though slow is a real force to be reckoned with, not a lot can safely switch in without receiving heavy damage from Fire Blast (assuming it hits) while being able to deal with Stall better (Blissey can stay in because of Taunt+Explosion), its resistances to many types + the fact that he does not care about sandstorm and Stealth Rock is also a plus.

I have tested Expert Belt, Leftovers and Shuca Berry before using Life Orb, I was not really to bothered with beating other Heatran one-on-one (Latias beats him anyway) and bluffing choice scarf is not really my thing, Leftovers worked in healing off SR damage but went with Life Orb as it dealt the most damage to nearly everything (plus it helped me score key kills against things that would otherwise still be alive if I went with the mentioned items.

Against stall this is my main weapon and dealing with SkarmBliss, as I have Taunt Blissey loses her main way of healing off damage from Heatran while losing her chance of ruining him with T-Wave, same deal with Skarmory but I honestly don't know who keeps him in on Heatran. My main issue with Heatran though is that he is slow and is beaten by Lucario, at first Magnezone seemed like the perfect choice as he traps steel types and beats most of the time, but I wanted the fire resist, and a flash fired Heatran is truly a monster, I will be sticking with Heatran for a while.

Heatran's weaknesses are somewhat covered by Salamence and Latias (Salamence has SR weakness so I can't rely on him), his speed and weakness to common types can be frustrating but as not much can switch into him (especially with a Flash Fire boost) I guess his power more than makes up for his ridiculously powerful STAB move.

Damage Calculations:

Life Orb Fire Blast vs 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Blissey: 27.73% - 32.77%

Life Orb Fire Blast vs 0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Gyarados: 38.37% - 45.32%

Life Orb Fire Blast vs 0 HP / 0 SpD Naive Salamence: 51.66% - 60.73%

Life Orb Fire Blast vs 4 HP / 0 SpD Jolly/Adamant Flygon: 50.66% - 59.60%

Life Orb Fire Blast vs 0 HP / 4 SpD Timid Starmie: 55.17% - 65.52%

Life Orb Fire Blast vs 136 HP / 0 SpD Timid Starmie: 49.49% - 58.31%

Life Orb Fire Blast vs 252 HP / 136 SpD Bold Rotom-A: 69.41% - 82.24%

Life Orb Fire Blast vs 252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Rotom-A: 87.27% - 102.91%

Life Orb Hidden Power Grass vs 252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Vaporeon: 44.83% - 53.02%

Life Orb Hidden Power Grass vs 252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Suicune: 44.06% - 51.98%

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Overall Rating

Sex Appeal: ****

Explosiveness: ****

Sweepingness: ***

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Latias @ Life Orb

Ability: Levitate

EVs: 6 HP | 252 SpA | 252 Spe

Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)

• Dragon Pulse
  
• Surf
  
• Calm Mind
  
• Recover
  

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Set Analysis & Overall Rating:

Latias is a solid special attacking dragon here because of her ability inflict massive damage after a single Calm Mind Boost and supply the needed resistance to Stealth Rock and recovery to punch gaping holes into the opposing team. Latias works extremely well with Metagross as they both cover each other's weaknesses plus Metagross can use her pursuit weakness to easily set up. Because of her solid attack and speed stats, Latias tends to causes a lot of switches allowing for easy set up but most of these switches are normally Scizors and Tyranitars. When taking into account stealth rock damage Surf normally dents them if they pursuit as I stay in (I think it does half, don't remember).

At first I was a bit wary of CM as I never really liked the lack of Thunderbolt but after much testing I found CM Latias being one of my favs and dealing massive damages, in other words she was my to-go-to Pokemon if I was in a tight spot. Along with Calm Mind Recover adds some life to Latias as she is sometimes quickly worn down if I am facing a heavy offensive team. Before I was running CSLatias to check some key offensive threats, with CM however they find themselves having problems coming in freely and setting up. Surf and Dragon Pulse gives me great coverage against everything not named Empoleon.

There is no denying it, Latias is a walking success for this team, My main issue with CSLatias was her lack of attacking power even with Draco Meteor, I also could never use it correctly due to that lack of power in Surf and Thunderbolt. Sacrificing coverage for attacking power has never been an issue with me as things like Empoleon can't exactly come in on a switch easily on other members on the team (I tend to get rid of him quickly) and Blissey is screwed up by Heatran, Salamence, Kingdra and Jirachi, once her and any other special wall is out of the way, I ravage through the opposing team with Latias like a hot knife through butter.

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Overall Rating

Sex Appeal: ****

Explosiveness: ****

Sweepingness: ***

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Conclusion

Finally at the end X_X, again this team as far as member selection is concerned is not all that different to Tay's team, the team however plays differently to fit my style and has a decent win record, I have hit a dead end with this team and will probably retire it after a couple of games, I have issues with Gyarados and Latias sometimes, when rating please try and stick to the triple dragon/steel strategy only recommend steel types/dragon types, as always I overdid it with the presentation, but meh, I always overdo it (or so people say).

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Additional Notes

• Status is as annoying as ever fro this team, though I can inflict status, the only member that can take status is Kingdra who loses this ability being hit by it, because of this I am testing Refresh on Latias, its doing ok but I still like Surf as it allows me to hit steel types.
  
• DD Salamence with Dragon Claw has also been tested over Salamence though its unlikely I will make the switch, Draco Meteor is too good on this team.
  
• I have considered adding recovery on Kingdra and then using Substitute over Hydro Pump (I already have a decent wallbreaker).
  
• I am missing Scizor, though Metagross is arguably better here I love the power of U-Turn coming from Scizor plus Bullet Punch.
  

(If you guys are wondering, I posted this on Smogon before posting it here).

Top Threats

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Gyarados: First enemy of the team, the deal with this team is that he cannot come in on probably every member without crippling him to the point where is not a threat anymore. Because of this nature Jirachi, Heatran, Metagross and to a lesser extent Salamence & Latias can stop nearly all of Gyaradoses attempts at setting up Dragon Dance and proceeding to sweep my team.

Heatran: I gotta be careful with Heatran, as it stands Kingdra and Latias are the best I got against combating Heatran, ones lacking choice scarf can do much to Latias anyways.

Latias: Another potential threat, surprisingly she has been giving me trouble, I go to her what i do to Gyarados, don't give her any free opportunity to come in freely and set up with cm/sub/whatever, Metagross and Kingdra both score some nice hits on her though if they set up.

Salamence: Another beast, probably the biggest threat to the team. Same deal with the rest, don't give him chances to come in and wreck my team he also has great difficultly coming in as most of my members can bash him with their respective moves. I watch out for these.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Silent Storm

[memjee]

Great team!! And good indepth RMT. You have no alarming weaknesses, and whatever weakness you do have is resisted by the other pokemon

DD Salamence looks like the biggest problem for you, a Scarf Latias could prevent it but it restricts it's usefulness. (CM is better imo)

[Silent Storm]

DD Salamence has a lot of problems coming and setting up, with Stealth Rock & all members either hitting him hard or crippling him, once he gets a DD is GG most of the time, but I try to never let that happen.

Anyways I made some small changes, I will update the post soon.

[Goldgross]

OK what i see here is a GIGANTIC Lucario weakness. Yes, i know theres no real chance for it to actually setup on you with everyone having offenses but you wanna ask yourself what would happen if it DID set up on you. Sudden chances may arise for it to setup on you if one of your pokes is asleep and then luke enters. Or if parahax kicked in then its basically game over. It CAN SETUP ON LATIAS AS SURF WILL LEAVE IT WITH ENOUGH HP TO SWEEP. LO heatran also doesnt help as it gives away the fact that your definitely not using the scarftran.

I think you might already be doing this but ill just say it if you were not, keep Jirachi alive for as long as possible. The only way you stop luke is by paralysing it with Twave. The only real way you counter luke AFTER a SD is to bring in salamence and sacrifice it to kill luke. But if salamence dies early on and jirachi dies early on, Luke will run through this whole team no problem. And of course Luke has the horrible tendency to come late in the game and turn it around.

The Rotom forms will have a ball with this team. They are capable of sweeping right through it in the late game when everything is worn down. But i guess you'll sacrifice one of your pokes in order to hit it with a really powerful move to OHKO early on in the game, but just watch out.

Gyarados: First enemy of the team, the deal with this team is that he cannot come in on probably every member without crippling him to the point where is not a threat anymore. Because of this nature Jirachi, Heatran, Metagross and to a lesser extent Salamence & Latias can stop nearly all of Gyaradoses attempts at setting up Dragon Dance and proceeding to sweep my team.

Salamence:Another beast, probably the biggest threat to the team. Same deal with the rest, don't give him chances to come in and wreck my team he also has great difficultly coming in as most of my members can bash him with their respective moves. I watch out for these.

Your Heatran is actually the weak link here >_<. Gyara and Sally (salamence) actually LOVE coming in on trans to stop him. Due to the fact that you dont run Explosion for HP grass (for swampy of course), both arent gonna be stopped by heatran. Once either one gets a boost, especially sally, its lights out. The both resist/are immune to all the moves that heatran has. Salamence will take very less damage from Heatrans fire blast and will take lol damage from HP grass. Gyara takes even lesser damage from FB than sally and even lesser from HP grass. These things are way too dangerous to be left with boosts.

I suggest you scarf your latias as it will deal with the Sally and Gyara threat rather nicely. Although metagross can come in after gyara DDs and if it doesnt have EQ meta can Tpunch it to death after survivng any kind of hit. Sally to a lesser extent since you have to lock it in to outrage before you do the setting up.

If not Scarflatias you should definitely scarf your tran. He makes a great luke and rotom counter. A single scarf poke doesnt hurt you know =/. Kingdra can still take care of the swampy if not anything else.

[Silent Storm]

Gyarados & Salamence are not setting up easily on Heatran with Taunt & Fire Blast, LO STAB Fire Blast does roughly 50% to both Salamence and Gyarados on a switch, factor in sr and lo recoil they are not living long enough to do any more damage, Salamence is harder as mixmence can destroy Heatran but then Latias comes in forces him out with dragon pulse, yes I run the risk of fb missing, but with gyarados I always taunt as they attempt to DD as a very large majority of gyarados users run adamant with a bulky spread and even the fastest adamant gyrados without a boost is not setting up on heatran when heatran has taunt & lo stab fire blast under his belt. CSLatias has no place on my offensive dragon team, all it takes is a simple pursuit from scizor from a smart player to take out latias when she is locked in dragon pulse/draco meteor, once she is gone I lose a valuable water resist among other things causing the whole team to fall apart.

Maybe I have not explained this properly but scarf revenge killers = bad, especially pursuit weak ones that don't do much damage outside hitting their targets (imo), the goal here is to limit the amount of set up bait as much as possible, scarfers used to to work, but then I found my myself against players that thought ahead which resulted in latias dying quickly and my opponent scoring nice points on my team with salamence and gyarados because my team lacked the ability to limit their chance of set up (this was before lo taunt heatran was being used).

Jirachi hardly ever dies early game, fire punch is being used primarily for lucario (as I had u turn / wish). Salamence checks him when he doesn't have a boost but I hardly ever use salamence for lucario unless i get very desperate (very rare). I have really come to dislike the counter mentality as it promotes defensive play, which I don't really like doing with this rather heavy offensive team.

[Goldgross]

Gyarados & Salamence are not setting up easily on Heatran with Taunt & Fire Blast, LO STAB Fire Blast does roughly 50% to both Salamence and Gyarados on a switch, factor in sr and lo recoil they are not living long enough to do any more damage, Salamence is harder as mixmence can destroy Heatran but then Latias comes in forces him out with dragon pulse, yes I run the risk of fb missing, but with gyarados I always taunt as they attempt to DD as a very large majority of gyarados users run adamant with a bulky spread and even the fastest adamant gyrados without a boost is not setting up on heatran when heatran has taunt & lo stab fire blast under his belt. CSLatias has no place on my offensive dragon team, all it takes is a simple pursuit from scizor from a smart player to take out latias when she is locked in dragon pulse/draco meteor, once she is gone I lose a valuable water resist among other things causing the whole team to fall apart.

Maybe I have not explained this properly but scarf revenge killers = bad, especially pursuit weak ones that don't do much damage outside hitting their targets (imo), the goal here is to limit the amount of set up bait as much as possible, scarfers used to to work, but then I found my myself against players that thought ahead which resulted in latias dying quickly and my opponent scoring nice points on my team with salamence and gyarados because my team lacked the ability to limit their chance of set up (this was before lo taunt heatran was being used).

Well basically Scizor can come in on most of Latias' moves and do bad things to her. If its the CM variant and you try to switch your still gonna get Pursuited. If the opponent predicts right and you stay in hes gonna BP you for the ohko or just U turn out after taking a move which wont ohko scizor. So there isnt really anything that your CM latias could do that the scarf variant couldnt =/. Surf will mostly 2hko so your opponent will have to guess and i think will make the right choice by Bullet punching latias to death.

As for the heatran trying to stop Gyara and sally......its a long shot. They can switch in to Earth power for free. You could taunt gyara sure....but not sally. And theres always the chance of the gyara being jolly D: . On the subject of damage, i dont think it will do 50%, its gonna do more like 40%. That and seeing as they might switch for free makes you very very vulnarable. But Meta is always there to handle both things so i still think theres not much to worry. Boy am i partial to my Meta :3