PowerSaves in combination with other tools

[I'mThéN00b]

Yes, I am the so maniest n00b to ask. Whatever way I use I just can find a way to alter my savefile outside the PowerSave boundaries. Ain't there a tool here on the internet which can extract the .sav of your game using the PS dongle without using PS software? Or is that so hard/time-eating to make that?

[evandixon]

Doing that would be very difficult, but could theoretically only yield th encrypted save and the ROM ID. It would still take work to decrypt, re-encrypt, and rehash the save, because all that's done server side, with no known way to use it on custom edited saves.

[I'mThéN00b]

Doing that would be very difficult, but could theoretically only yield th encrypted save and the ROM ID. It would still take work to decrypt, re-encrypt, and rehash the save, because all that's done server side, with no known way to use it on custom edited saves.

Hmmm... So basically were doomed if we're using PowerSaves? Great . Doesn't CyberGadget decrypt your save file? Or only the JP versions (maybe another encryption because of alphabet)?

[smitty]

CyberGadget only works with Japanese region carts. Once a save is altered, it still has to be sent to their servers to be encrypted and then sent back to your computer so that it can be rewritten to the cart. Save encryption is not a universal constant like previous generations of consoles (Game Boy, GBA, etc.) You can't use a decryption "key" for one of my carts and use it to decrypt your's (unlike previous generations.) The reason for this is complicated unless you know some basic facts of how the 3DS handles saves. You can find the facts in various places. We've rehashed it here in other topics, but it was a while back in the original PKHeX thread, if I recall correctly. Long story short, unless Datel changes their business model on how they are handling PowerSaves (such as emulating what Cyber is doing with the Save Editor), the only thing that PowerSaves will ever be is basic, pre-made by the company only, save editor.

[I'mThéN00b]

CyberGadget only works with Japanese region carts. Once a save is altered, it still has to be sent to their servers to be encrypted and then sent back to your computer so that it can be rewritten to the cart. Save encryption is not a universal constant like previous generations of consoles (Game Boy, GBA, etc.) You can't use a decryption "key" for one of my carts and use it to decrypt your's (unlike previous generations.) The reason for this is complicated unless you know some basic facts of how the 3DS handles saves. You can find the facts in various places. We've rehashed it here in other topics, but it was a while back in the original PKHeX thread, if I recall correctly. Long story short, unless Datel changes their business model on how they are handling PowerSaves (such as emulating what Cyber is doing with the Save Editor), the only thing that PowerSaves will ever be is basic, pre-made by the company only, save editor.

Since my name is an explenation from what I am, consider I don't know anything. I get your point, but there is a algorithem, am I right? Is it too heavy for our pc's or is it something I don't know and you can show me why it isn't like that? You should really consider me as a n00b, since I was that dumb to try to alter the .bin from powersave using the .pkx binairy and just injecting it in the place a decrypted save has . Nevertheless, I am greedy to learn what you know, what everyone here knows.

[smitty]

To break it down very simplistically,

Each 3DS has it's own unique "key" for encryption. The master program that generates the "key" is on an area of the 3DS that nobody has been able to dump it from. It then dumps the "key" to a section of the 3DS that is write only (meaning that a computer cannot read the data from that section. This relegates you trying to either intercept the data between the chip and the write only section (which would be like trying to shoot the wings off of a fly using a pellet gun from over a mile away) or ripping the generator code itself (which is stored on a certain chip.) Ripping it from the chip is not an easy thing to do as evidenced by the fact that nobody has done it yet. It requires basically deconstructing a chip (and therefore trashing a 3DS) and then trying to extract the information out of it that way. It is by no means a guaranteed thing that you will even succeed when you try it. It also requires specialized equipment, know-how, and most importantly, money.

This inability to extract the this (which is a major part of the security apparatus for the system) is why there is not a 3DS emulator out there. It is also why there is not much in the way of dedicated hacking resources by groups when you have other work arounds that are well established, developed, and easier/cheaper to accomplish (such as Gateway/MT-Card, the installation of developer tools via things like Gateway, Ninjahax, etc.) Granted, these work arounds are always vulnerable to being patched by Nintendo, but there will always be holes in security programs where exploits can be found no matter what Nintendo does. The biggest difference is that the above mentioned vulnerabilities are software based whereas extracting what you are basically wanting is based on a hardware method (which is much harder to break in this instance.)

Finally, this is description is very basic. It is much more complicated than this overall. If you absolutely want to know more about it, I suggest that you take the time to learn about the security architecture of the 3DS. This will then make the save encryption system make more sense. Major hacking forums are other good resources. However, I will caution you to not just show up and basically say "Teach me how to hack a 3DS." That will get you shot down really quick. People like to hate on hackers for being "secretive" and "unwilling to share knowledge." That is usually the furthest from the truth. Imagine somebody showing up to your job who has put no effort to even remotely study up what it is that you do and having them say, "teach me everything there is to know about whatever it is that you do." As annoying as that would be, imagine that multiplied by 500 other people. If you make a basic attempt to study up on things (like I did) and then go to these forums, you will have a much more pleasant experience overall. There will be things that you get wrong, but these guys are actually very helpful if they see that you made a good faith effort to try to understand what they are doing/being faced with. Instead of showing up like the above mentioned example, you will look more like somebody who has a genuine interest in what they are doing and will usually be met with more open arms.

[I'mThéN00b]

To break it down very simplistically,

Each 3DS has it's own unique "key" for encryption. The master program that generates the "key" is on an area of the 3DS that nobody has been able to dump it from. It then dumps the "key" to a section of the 3DS that is write only (meaning that a computer cannot read the data from that section. This relegates you trying to either intercept the data between the chip and the write only section (which would be like trying to shoot the wings off of a fly using a pellet gun from over a mile away) or ripping the generator code itself (which is stored on a certain chip.) Ripping it from the chip is not an easy thing to do as evidenced by the fact that nobody has done it yet. It requires basically deconstructing a chip (and therefore trashing a 3DS) and then trying to extract the information out of it that way. It is by no means a guaranteed thing that you will even succeed when you try it. It also requires specialized equipment, know-how, and most importantly, money.

This inability to extract the this (which is a major part of the security apparatus for the system) is why there is not a 3DS emulator out there. It is also why there is not much in the way of dedicated hacking resources by groups when you have other work arounds that are well established, developed, and easier/cheaper to accomplish (such as Gateway/MT-Card, the installation of developer tools via things like Gateway, Ninjahax, etc.) Granted, these work arounds are always vulnerable to being patched by Nintendo, but there will always be holes in security programs where exploits can be found no matter what Nintendo does. The biggest difference is that the above mentioned vulnerabilities are software based whereas extracting what you are basically wanting is based on a hardware method (which is much harder to break in this instance.)

Finally, this is description is very basic. It is much more complicated than this overall. If you absolutely want to know more about it, I suggest that you take the time to learn about the security architecture of the 3DS. This will then make the save encryption system make more sense. Major hacking forums are other good resources. However, I will caution you to not just show up and basically say "Teach me how to hack a 3DS." That will get you shot down really quick. People like to hate on hackers for being "secretive" and "unwilling to share knowledge." That is usually the furthest from the truth. Imagine somebody showing up to your job who has put no effort to even remotely study up what it is that you do and having them say, "teach me everything there is to know about whatever it is that you do." As annoying as that would be, imagine that multiplied by 500 other people. If you make a basic attempt to study up on things (like I did) and then go to these forums, you will have a much more pleasant experience overall. There will be things that you get wrong, but these guys are actually very helpful if they see that you made a good faith effort to try to understand what they are doing/being faced with. Instead of showing up like the above mentioned example, you will look more like somebody who has a genuine interest in what they are doing and will usually be met with more open arms.

I thought the key was dropped by some guy. I could PM you it, so you can see if my googling was good enough (there are a couple of people around here unwilling to drop it on these fora)? There are 3DS emulators out here, but they can only emulate homebrew games, so if you consider them as as non-existing I'd understand. And the last thing: I've been looking on 3 forums with information to come to the conclusion that I know nearly as much as the non-programmers here, I just say that I'm a n00b to make them use easier English so I don't have to ask them on details. I appreciate(?) that you told me that (see quote). Now I got to just search more and finally get my hands on some programming books...

[evandixon]

I thought the key was dropped by some guy. I could PM you it' date=' so you can see if my googling was good enough (there are a couple of people around here unwilling to drop it on these fora)? There are 3DS emulators out here, but they can only emulate homebrew games, so if you consider them as as non-existing I'd understand. And the last thing: I've been looking on 3 forums with information to come to the conclusion that I know nearly as much as the non-programmers here, I just say that I'm a n00b to make them use easier English so I don't have to ask them on details. I appreciate(?) that you told me that (see quote). Now I got to just search more and finally get my hands on some programming books...[/quote']

Don't PM that key. Not only is it illegal, it's the wrong key. Each console has its own key for save encryption. You're probably thinking of a public key, which is used to decrypt ROMs on cartridges and such (although I didn't think it was released yet, maybe I'm behind in the news).

[smitty]

Most of the "emulators" out there are are outright fakes. They have those claiming to have 3DS emulation for years. If you clicked on them, you were taken to spam sights, scammed out of money, or downloaded a virus.

There have been some recent developments in emulators for the PC that can play commercial games, but this is very early in the process. There has only been one commercial game that I am aware of that has been shown to work (albeit I have only seen about a 30 second video which only showed the intro video to the game, but that does not mean that actually playing the game is impossible on it), and it is a very early game in the library with a much more simplistic save encryption architecture compared to the newest games. Pokemon even uses a different save system all together compared to this game, let alone a different type of save encryption. I'm not knocking on the work that this group has made. It is a big step compared to where things have been; however, if you are waiting for a fully functional, run all ROMs, 3DS emulator for PC, you will still be waiting for a bit most likely.

Also, do not PM that key. I do not want it and even if you did do it, I would just delete the message.

[I'mThéN00b]

@evandixon got it. Maybe I didn't got it right. I'll shut my mouth

@smitty TronDS works with HOMEBREW games, not commercial. And got.

since I don't want to get banned I'll close this thread.

[evandixon]

Thread closed by request.