Pidgeot: Gamefreak's First Mistake?

[wraith89]

That just sounds as a 'fun fact' to me, I am afraid. How much effort did it take to get such an mysterious Pokémon like Glalie? You had to train a loser like Snorunt (although, it is somehow pretty funny) until level 42! And then, Glalie isn't that 'strong' either. I do not think putting such aesthetic meanings on game features like level-up and the such would be decisive.

Glalie has another chance of evolution (even if they're not doing that, but it still does). Pidgeot on the other hand has no other way since it is taking up the 3rd slot of a Pokemon evolution. did you still not get that after I've been saying that gazillion times? Besides, Snorunt has an alternate evo in the form of Froslass as well, which has a role. Also, Glalie isn't a common plain sight Pokemon; it's a side Pokemon people get to complete their Pokedex or for some other exotic reasons, unlike Pidgey. So moot point.

(BTW Glalie with Moody is crazy good... well, not great because the randomness keeps it in check but it's scary)

Personally, I find Drill Peck such an agressive attack for Pidgeot, so luckily it has not got it. And not every Pokémon has to have the most strong attacks. I know, they had to give Pidgeot something nicer, but Wing Attack is almost as twice as strong as you put it down there (60 base power, 35 pp. ^^). It was just a pity Fly was not really stronger, so mostly I kept Wing Attack instead of Fly in the end.

I probably should have clarified this before (sorry), but 35 BP was back in RBY, which was stupid (I was raging when I realised that was the only Flying move aside from Fly Pidgeot can learn). They fixed it in GSC to 60. But this is an example of why people wouldn't want to use Pidgeot. Though Gust was a normal move then, Spearow started off with Peck, which was just as strong as Wing Attack, giving you more reasons to use Spearow anyhow. Even then, the current learnset of Pidgeot is full of 40 base power moves until finally at level 38 (not even at 36) it learns Wing Attack, its first decent flying move. Other early birds learn Aerial Ace or Wing Attack at quite low levels. I've been stating this earlier... but this is ridiculous.

Yes Drill Peck is ridiculous for a Pidgeot, but... level 38 Wing Attack? Can they like... move that lower... or at least at level 36 when it evolves? What's up with that? I mean, I can clearly see Pidgeot's movelist is based on blowing stuff (Gust/Sand Attack/Whirlwind/Twister/Hurricane at later levels), but there can be some improvements elsewhere. It does learn Brave Bird unlike Fearow, BUT it needs to breed with Staraptor to get that, which is patronising.

Meh, those descriptions in the dex are just, not worth knowing... They are so ridiculous! In Fr/Lg I saw how exaggerated they were (before, I did not noticed it really, I think). Machop could beat a hundred people in wrestling, Rapidash could run a freaking 150 miles per hour, and more of that... And I do not think the makers would represent that in base stats (105 speed is just pathetic for 150 miles... what about Ninjask then? Is it breaking the sound barrier or something? ;P).

But the Pokemon's Pokedex descriptions actually form a basis for their stats. 105 base speed Rapidash? That's pretty awesome... it beats a lot of those base 100 speed Pokemon that's so widespread. Machop has a pretty high base attack too, that isn't so bad. Dragonite may not have the fastest speed despite its Pokedex description, but it has access to Extremespeed. Ninjask might indeed break the sound barrier o_o So some of it can help and make sense. Pidgeot's stats still make no sense and I don't see how it ever will. It's too modest for something of that caliber.

Another thing, Tropius may not be as bad as Pidgeot (I guess you will say that anyway when I state the reverse), but to me, it always has been such a charming Pokémon. While, when encountering it around Fortree, it was just a mighty Pokémon to see. I always expected more of it, but it seems it is just such a kind soul instead. I liked that too, after a while.

Tropius might be actually far worse... I like Tropius too, because it is based off the Mokele-Mbembe, the very thing I want to see in real life. But though this guy got messed badly in stats, at least it has a chance of evolution. Pidgeot does not.

Actually, Dream World Tropius (Harvest versions) is not all too bad. Though it has to be under the sun, it can get the job done.

So yeah, Pidgeot has been neglected, but I already agreed with you on that, Wraith. I am only stating (I think) it has not really something to do with those in-game things, and that there are tons of other Pokémon which have even a more bad move set or stats than Pidgeot.

The thing I already harped on is the not being able to evolve situation. I can understand those level 10 Bugs, such as Butterfree or Beedrill, since they're meant for early game ownage, but Pidgeot is clearly a long term Pokemon and there they messed up badly.

Though there is one other Pokemon I would like to rant about, it isn't a long term Pokemon unlike Pidgeot, but it is clear he got trashed. It's Hitmonchan, who clearly has nothing over his two brothers. It's possible for an evolution however (though that won't really happen), but that's another Pokemon who Gamefreak decided to trash in the later games realising he just can't compete over Lee or Top.

[Matt the Pokemaniac]

I agree with all of you.

Pidgeot has been neglected by Gamefreak.

An evolved pokemon should not be this weak.

If Gamefreak dosen't fix Pidgeot up, we can fix it up with an action replay instead.

Though we would have to make a code for it first.

[Sunny day]

Glalie has another chance of evolution (even if they're not doing that, but it still does). Pidgeot on the other hand has no other way since it is taking up the 3rd slot of a Pokemon evolution. did you still not get that after I've been saying that gazillion times? Besides, Snorunt has an alternate evo in the form of Froslass as well, which has a role. Also, Glalie isn't a common plain sight Pokemon; it's a side Pokemon people get to complete their Pokedex or for some other exotic reasons, unlike Pidgey. So moot point.

The thing I already harped on is the not being able to evolve situation. I can understand those level 10 Bugs, such as Butterfree or Beedrill, since they're meant for early game ownage, but Pidgeot is clearly a long term Pokemon and there they messed up badly.

Okay, so we agree on everything, except the 'he cannot have a possible chance of getting a evolution'? Since you stated it as a moot point, you may tell me why that question is such so decisive for you? What is the point of arguing with some highly speculative 'something that does not even exist on the point we are discussing'? I mean, it is not there! It is not even a wraith. Maybe GameFreak introduces a first 'evolutionary chain of 4' for Pidgeot in the near future! Sorry Wraith, unless you can explain it more clearly, I do not see the priority of that argument. And why does 'Glalie evolves even 6 levels later than majestic Pidgeot (and Snorunt is even harder to train than Pidgeotto, by the way)' not count? Is that difference meanless, then?

Maybe I have to say Exploud... but I already know you consider him more lucky with his movepool (I consider him more lucky with that too. ^^). Or Jumpluff... but he is evolving at level 27, that is way to early, I suppose. Maybe you can tell me another thing instead: Why would you see Pidgeot as a such pitiful Pokémon? I get the feeling you want everyone to say you are right, and most of the members who said something are of the same opinion as you (see above), but why would Pidgeot so dogmatically be viewed as pathetic thing which cannot evolve anymore? What I want to make clear is that there are really a lot of other Pokémon which are neglected in the same (or in another) way as Pidgeot.

Yes, if you keep focussing on the failure of Pidgeot, it will fail in the end. I think that is how it works.

Edit: The heck, that signature of Matt the Pokemaniac blinded my eyes!

[wraith89]

Okay, so we agree on everything, except the 'he cannot have a possible chance of getting a evolution'? Since you stated it as a moot point, you may tell me why that question is such so decisive for you? What is the point of arguing with some highly speculative 'something that does not even exist on the point we are discussing'? I mean, it is not there! It is not even a wraith. Maybe GameFreak introduces a first 'evolutionary chain of 4' for Pidgeot in the near future! Sorry Wraith, unless you can explain it more clearly, I do not see the priority of that argument. And why does 'Glalie evolves even 6 levels later than majestic Pidgeot (and Snorunt is even harder to train than Pidgeotto, by the way)' not count? Is that difference meanless, then?

At the moment it is clear Pokemon are not going past 3 stages, as many are fine in their 3 stage set. Any more and things will go beyond broken. Unless they change that, and you know I cannot predict the future... but let's hope not.

Also, that was for the whole point of in-game battling. If Pidgeot wasn't so great competitively, maybe he has a chance in-game. Well, not quite. It will suit people fine however they want it to be, but this thing takes too much effort to get good, even from the start. I'm saying why did they give it some nonsensical stats in the end if it wasn't going to have much of a potential in the first place?

You know you don't have to make Snorunt into Glalie unless you're playing Gen III. But by then, you must have high 30s-low 40s when you first encounter Snorunt. Yes, Snorunt is much harder to train than a Pidgeotto, but it's not there from the start; you get it much later in any of the game it appears in. Also, this is Pidgeot in COMPARISON with the OTHER birds that are READILY available as well. There's no need to compare it to Snorunt if there is nothing to compare it with. It doesn't take a role aside from the rare Pokemon people get to complete their dex or whatnot. Your argument would hold water if Snorunt had something to compare with, but that's not it. Frankly, I don't know if Snorunt can be compared to anything o_o

Maybe I have to say Exploud... but I already know you consider him more lucky with his movepool (I consider him more lucky with that too. ^^). Or Jumpluff... but he is evolving at level 27, that is way to early, I suppose.

Exploud has a ginormous movepool, so he's fine. Unpredictability and decent power makes him okay competitively and in-game. Jumpluff has a great role of Subseeding competitively. May not suit people in-game, but Jumpluff has been known to be incredibly annoying.

Maybe you can tell me another thing instead: Why would you see Pidgeot as a such pitiful Pokémon? I get the feeling you want everyone to say you are right, and most of the members who said something are of the same opinion as you (see above), but why would Pidgeot so dogmatically be viewed as pathetic thing which cannot evolve anymore? What I want to make clear is that there are really a lot of other Pokémon which are neglected in the same (or in another) way as Pidgeot.

Yes, if you keep focussing on the failure of Pidgeot, it will fail in the end. I think that is how it works.

Because there is absolutely no reason (aside from personal preferences) to get a Pidgey over a Spearow or the later Doduo. Later birds that came in, such as Taillow or Starly, doesn't make Pidgey's existence feel any better. Competitively, Staraptor bit his thumb to the other birds giving them no reason to be ever used... well aside from the unstable Swellow I guess, and Pidgeot is in the bottom of the list, maybe sharing with Fearow at last due to the former learning Brave Bird and the latter not...

In DPP though Pidgey got a small role as the rare bird found in an exotic land of bugs (5% encounter) and was some high level (49-51 I think) to please collectors looking for exotic creatures in Sinnoh. But I wonder if that's all it is now; to be some noob bird put to the side like that with bugs all stronger than it (that's sort of embarrassing to be frank).

There isn't enough neglected Pokemon aside from Hitmonchan that I can think of actually, in competitive terms. Okay, early bugs like Kricketune or Beedrill, you can surely say that. But I see them as having some sort of a role; being powerful early game but later on they don't turn out too good. It seems most games have those (in Fire Emblem you call those Jeigans, for example). But it looks like Pidgeot was meant for the "start low end good" Pokemon like the other birds, but... it wasn't meant to be. You can say it is like the Snorunt of that place, but... you've already beat the game at that point, so whatever.

If there was a theoretical game with all the early game birds in the same early routes, not many people would pick a bird who learns pitiful moves and needs to be level 18 to match a bird that evolves into a better bird at level 20, which then beats the first bird who needs to get to 36 to reach its final stage and still not beat the bird who turned much better at 20. And this happened... a lot. And if Starly and Taillow were in... yeah, forget the other two. :L

Idk if this counts as a Normal bird, but Togekiss... was actually worth all the trouble to get

Most other 3 stage Pokemon are really well off in their last stage. For example, Walrein doesn't look too good since none of its stats aside from HP is above 100, but it makes a mean stalling monster in hail. Azumarill was a joke in Gen II, but after the introduction of abilities, Azumarill became a beast thanks to Huge Power, making its laughable 50 attack into an unbelievably scary base 150 attack. Surely that isn't a joke. They took the time to improve it further by giving it physical STAB in Gen IV, and access to a priority move! Some Pokemon do well even with 2 stage or... if they don't evolve at all. Some evolved unnecessarily (Rhydon and Dusclops I'm looking at you). Yes, some were created that way... but I don't see how Pidgeot ended up with subpar stats. They had many opportunities to fix some of this; add a decent ability (whoops not done), give it a bigger movepool (its movepool is okay but still not there to have anything over the other birds), give it a unique item (that is yet to be done, but it is possible), maybe a signature move (Featherdance was SOMEWHAT like that, but it really isn't now that nearly every birds and their mother gets it, and Hurricane is given to a few others who can use it better). It just has it difficult. This bird wasn't meant to end up like this I think and Pidgeot just needs some sort of improvement to give it an edge over the other birds. Relatively higher bulk doesn't seem to cut it

I'm not saying it is the absolute worst Pokemon out there; there are far worse things (hi Kricketune). In fact, I wouldn't mind if Pidgeot had Unfezant's stats... because clearly Unfezant was messed up badly due to it not getting the right moves. But it is clear Pidgeot is lacking a lot when in comparison to other birds, and it can hardly justify its aesthetics or Pokedex description with those base stats.

Nah, I don't want everyone to agree with me, but I'm merely stating my opinions and defending them if I need to. It's just a game, relax (there is no room for ad hominem here) X_X;;

But... I hope you can understand where I'm coming from and that it isn't just coming out of nowhere. You may already know I've pulled quite a few Pidgeot sweeps out of the hat for fun, but personal experiences can't count as an absolute; Pidgeot needs much more effort to pull in-game than the other birds, and competitively, more effort to maintain with unstable results when used. Something just isn't right. I would normally blame this on generation drift (every game series: newer additions always overpowers the older staples exponentially... ALWAYS), but seeing how they improved Azumarill or Gyarados or Feraligatr and Sneasel and some others... I don't see why Pidgeot was given no real improvements. Well actually, Brave Bird and Hurricane "were improvements", but the bird that outclasses the rest has access to Brave Bird... and a move to actually hurt Rock Pokemon as well (Close Combat), so I question Gamefreak.

Great to see you're actually going in-depth in a discussion

EDIT: Speaking of stats that don't make sense... 45 attack power on Onix? That's just wrong ._.

[Sunny day]

How did you typed that in 15 minutes, Wraith?

I am obviously lacking speed. ^^

I'm saying why did they give it some nonsensical stats in the end if it wasn't going to have much of a potential in the first place?

Maybe I am shifting from point to point, but sometimes something new comes up, which you do not necessarily have to see as a rejection of your arguments... Well, I think Game Freak did not really thought much about the potential of Pokémon in the first place. So, take Dragonite, back in the days of Red and Blue. Dragonite was a promising Pokémon too (due to the anime at least), it was mysterious, strong, the only 'dragon', Lance -the Dragon Master- got one in the game, but... Although it has good stats, it could only Hyper Beam, which leaves you immobile too. :\ Besides, Dragon Rage was his only Dragon attack, so what is this for pathetic presence of a mighty Dragon Pokémon? I only think they experimented with base stats, for the first generations (I & II), and meant nothing particular with it. Pidgeot got some 'seemingly' bad stats, but that was for the players to prove.

Off course, the next generation they had an eye for more extreme base stats, so I think they maybe would be aware of competitive uses of Pokémon. In any case, they gave some new attacks to some 'neglected' Pokémon too, so it is more visible. But it leaves me the question: Did they let some Pokémon fail when they created them, or not? I know Dragonite is a powerhouse now, but that does not solve my question (although, a bit, because it seems they admit their fault with doing such things). Keep this in mind for a while, because I am going back to Pidgeot now.

The base stats of Pidgeot are really 'nonsensical', but your are stating too it can tie with Fearow, because it lacks Brave Bird. So that means some good attacks can make it something better, although the base stats are remaining the same? In that case, the problem 'could have been solved' if they gave Pidgeot meaningful attacks and moved Wing Attack a few levels down or something. (maybe you would say it is not enough, but at least, 'the problem' is solved on one major place. Oh yeah, and this is shifting to the speculative side too...) But if it was so, case closed. But what I mean with my Dragonite example, combined with this, it taking me to the following.

The problem with that (the paragraph above) is, you mention other Pokémon as Walrein 'which you can use as staller'. But that really is an anachronistic view, did they really made Walrein to be like that? Walrein changed in Gen IV to be a potential staller (I am not really aware of changes in the world of competitive battling, but I thought Stallrein actually was a new invention back then. I did not became what it was immediately or very short after.) Anyway, even if it is not true what I said in the previous sentence, Wallrein was not that good in the times of R/S/E, when it was created. So was Azumarill, as you mention yourself. But, they get some additions in their moveset, ability or egg moves, which make them -at least- useful in competitive play. In the end, I am still sticking with that question, because I think you could apply that to Pidgeot, too. The point is, even some Pokémon that are now usable were sometimes pitiful when the were created (just as Pidgeot)... the only thing about Pidgeot is it got not improved, well the others did improve most of the time.

Anyway, I do not think they wanted to make Pidgeot fail in the first place (I hope I made that point clear with that statement of Dragonite and the such), so its base stats is not really something to worry about. Off course, when it has spent 10 base stat in speed and attack, instead of defences, it would be a Fearow and useful as a sweeper. But even then it could be still outclassed, and it is not the case, so in principal it is fine with those weird base stats. Especially when I guessed right with that example of Fearow and Brave Bird you mentioned. Eh... I am getting of my point now. ^^ The problem is the moveset I think. That is the most simple way for Game Freak to solve such problems, but they did not. And there are many other Pokémon with the same problem. I am going to say Sunflora's name again, because Sunflora has one of the most worse movepools. Its stats are not that balanced as well, with that terrible 30 speed, but virtually all Grass moves take Sunflora to nowhere in the end. In those cases you ask yourself: do they will not accept/see that Pokémon fails that way? And off course, did they make it with that vision... or not? Hypno also was pretty pointless the first three generations I believe, but no, I just think they experimented. With Pidgeot, too.

I know you still want to emphasize on the fact Pidgey is easy to get everywhere and Dragonite and the such are more exclusive. That makes them less comparable, I know. But why have they endlessly be compared with others? Hypno and Sunflora examples could not be comparable either (I already stopped to compare it with Snorunt. ), but they seriously have something in common.

But... I hope you can understand where I'm coming from and that it isn't just coming out of nowhere. You may already know I've pulled quite a few Pidgeot sweeps out of the hat for fun, but personal experiences can't count as an absolute; Pidgeot needs much more effort to pull in-game than the other birds, and competitively, more effort to maintain with unstable results when used.

I noticed the pain is coming from deep regions (or how I have to say that). ^^ I hoped I could make a consistent story this time, but I am always dwelling of, so I do not know this would makes much sense after the previous message. The only thing I came to realise is that you are really focussed on comparisons with other birds, while I have the tendency to look for other random Pokémon, which got in my opinion a sort of the same problem as Pidgeot. Anyway, maybe I am hitting some questions to think about... I do not really have the time to revise my story, because... I took me two hours to write down. So yeah, it is more fun to go in-depth, but it takes me so much effort to do!

(Hehe, I saw your edit while I was typing! The giant snake of rocks has just... 45 base attack to create endlessly long tunnel underground and smash itself through massive mountains! )

[wraith89]

How did you typed that in 15 minutes, Wraith?

I am obviously lacking speed. ^^

Because I AM Pidgeot with Mach 2 Speed... faster than Garchomp on Mach!

*stares at 91 speed*

Oh.. >_>

Maybe I am shifting from point to point, but sometimes something new comes up, which you do not necessarily have to see as a rejection of your arguments... Well, I think Game Freak did not really thought much about the potential of Pokémon in the first place. So, take Dragonite, back in the days of Red and Blue. Dragonite was a promising Pokémon too (due to the anime at least), it was mysterious, strong, the only 'dragon', Lance -the Dragon Master- got one in the game, but... Although it has good stats, it could only Hyper Beam, which leaves you immobile too. :\ Besides, Dragon Rage was his only Dragon attack, so what is this for pathetic presence of a mighty Dragon Pokémon? I only think they experimented with base stats, for the first generations (I & II), and meant nothing particular with it. Pidgeot got some 'seemingly' bad stats, but that was for the players to prove.

I will consent to that. Back then, Pokemon was about collecting, not necessarily battling. I will agree, but it's really the thing that they did not do much to improve it while others have over generations is what is bothering me. Dragonite... who knew it was going to be a powerhouse? Well, it took a long time.

The argument shifting may be due to the language barriers we both have, so that's always possible

Off course, the next generation they had an eye for more extreme base stats, so I think they maybe would be aware of competitive uses of Pokémon. In any case, they gave some new attacks to some 'neglected' Pokémon too, so it is more visible. But it leaves me the question: Did they let some Pokémon fail when they created them, or not? I know Dragonite is a powerhouse now, but that does not solve my question (although, a bit, because it seems they admit their fault with doing such things). Keep this in mind for a while, because I am going back to Pidgeot now.

Nah. It's not about when they were created. Hyper Beam was very viable then because once someone fainted with that move, you never needed to recharge. The metagame was a train wreck then, so I suppose it didn't count. But... it doesn't really help that not much was done for Pidgeot. I guess the only major change from Gen I to Gen II were new moves and special attack/special defence split. I suppose Pidgeot didn't lose out unlike most others; it kept its 70 base special, but it didn't gain either. Looking at its special moves now, I think it would have been cool if Pidgeot's special attack got an increase from that split; maybe then it would have some sort of a role over the other birds; a viable mix sweeper with physical and special attacks. Alas it was not meant to be

The base stats of Pidgeot are really 'nonsensical', but your are stating too it can tie with Fearow, because it lacks Brave Bird. So that means some good attacks can make it something better, although the base stats are remaining the same? In that case, the problem 'could have been solved' if they gave Pidgeot meaningful attacks and moved Wing Attack a few levels down or something. (maybe you would say it is not enough, but at least, 'the problem' is solved on one major place. Oh yeah, and this is shifting to the speculative side too...) But if it was so, case closed. But what I mean with my Dragonite example, combined with this, it taking me to the following.

Yeah the stats are nonsensical... but base 120 STAB move cannot be argued with. It's a great addition to Pidgeot really. Yes, great new attacks can help solve Pidgeot's case... somewhat, as it can use Heat Wave better than the other birds, along with Hurricane, so it isn't all too bad as of now. The problem with Dragonite was not his stats; he has very good stats. The real problem was his lack of movepool; that was changed. Base stats, however, seem to be pretty permanent. I proposed a solution, which was a special hold item for Pidgeot that can raise its special attack, maybe double it, I don't know. It doesn't sound like it will break Pidgeot either, and give it a role of some kind. If it cannot evolve, maybe a form change can do (like Rotom's?).. though I doubt the latter will ever happen.

The problem with that (the paragraph above) is, you mention other Pokémon as Walrein 'which you can use as staller'. But that really is an anachronistic view, did they really made Walrein to be like that? Walrein changed in Gen IV to be a potential staller (I am not really aware of changes in the world of competitive battling, but I thought Stallrein actually was a new invention back then. I did not became what it was immediately or very short after.) Anyway, even if it is not true what I said in the previous sentence, Wallrein was not that good in the times of R/S/E, when it was created. So was Azumarill, as you mention yourself. But, they get some additions in their moveset, ability or egg moves, which make them -at least- useful in competitive play. In the end, I am still sticking with that question, because I think you could apply that to Pidgeot, too. The point is, even some Pokémon that are now usable were sometimes pitiful when the were created (just as Pidgeot)... the only thing about Pidgeot is it got not improved, well the others did improve most of the time.

Okay, I know, Ice Body did not exist in Gen III, but even in Gen III, Walrein was pretty beast in stalling. It was supposed to be the "Lapras" or "Dewgong" of Hoenn, I guess. I know you think more of Dewgong, but it had access to Encore naturally and some other interesting moves. It was not bad when it was released either.

As for Azumarill, it only had 2 stages until Gen III. Who knew it would get a baby and be relegated to final form? If they didn't give it Huge Power, well... yeah, Azumarill would just be another fangirl's Pokemon. But now it is both a fangirl's Pogeyman and a crazy battler! So I am content.

And yes, the very last thing is what bothers me; the others were improved just fine to give them some sort of a role, Pidgeot is still bottom-feed of the birds and from various sources (be it Pokedex, the anime, the manga, even in-game trainers such as Green), Pidgeot is supposed to be of high caliber

Anyway, I do not think they wanted to make Pidgeot fail in the first place (I hope I made that point clear with that statement of Dragonite and the such), so its base stats is not really something to worry about. Off course, when it has spent 10 base stat in speed and attack, instead of defences, it would be a Fearow and useful as a sweeper. But even then it could be still outclassed, and it is not the case, so in principal it is fine with those weird base stats. Especially when I guessed right with that example of Fearow and Brave Bird you mentioned. Eh... I am getting of my point now. ^^ The problem is the moveset I think. That is the most simple way for Game Freak to solve such problems, but they did not. And there are many other Pokémon with the same problem. I am going to say Sunflora's name again, because Sunflora has one of the most worse movepools. Its stats are not that balanced as well, with that terrible 30 speed, but virtually all Grass moves take Sunflora to nowhere in the end. In those cases you ask yourself: do they will not accept/see that Pokémon fails that way? And off course, did they make it with that vision... or not? Hypno also was pretty pointless the first three generations I believe, but no, I just think they experimented. With Pidgeot, too.

Oh you know Gamefreak. They're plotting to take over the world with-*gets shot*

It's just me being a cynic here. Fearow is outclassed by the other birds, but still useful in-game. But there's something that the other birds don't have over Fearow. Gen V it got Drill Liner, a Ground attack, which can be useful for coverage. Previous to that, Dodrio and up totally smashed Fearow.

Sunflora got Earth Power to defend herself against Fire Pokemon, which isn't half bad. Solar Power gives her the edge over some other Grassers that isn't Tropius. She has a role. The worst movepool of the grassers? I'd say the new Lilligant, who has very good base stats, but ONLY (I mean ONLY) learns Grass moves as offense (asides from the universal Return and Hidden Power).

Hypno is a defensive Psychic and always was; that's not bad. Unlike Alakazam, it won't die to a Wurmple's Tackle

I know you still want to emphasize on the fact Pidgey is easy to get everywhere and Dragonite and the such are more exclusive. That makes them less comparable, I know. But why have they endlessly be compared with others? Hypno and Sunflora examples could not be comparable either (I already stopped to compare it with Snorunt. ), but they seriously have something in common.

Eh I'm not sure where this is going, but you've made your point. But Dragonite was something of a neglect as well, you got that right. Well, for a while. It had a larger movepool than the other dragons, but stuff like Salamence made Dragonite nearly obsolete for Gen III, and the introduction of Outrage tutor just made Salamence usurp Dragonite completely, since DD + Outrage combo was exclusive to Nite before. Gen V, though, sealed the deal. Dragonite gained Multiscale, letting it set up easier with better bulk and take advantage of its new moves, such as Hurricane and Extremespeed (though the latter existed in HGSS). Now Dragonite gets the love he deserves... and that took a while. But not much was done for Pidgeot. If Dream World even gave it a better ability somewhat... maybe similar to Multiscale or whatever, I don't know... something, then Pidgeot would be more salvagable. However, Work Up is an interesting new tool; it raises both Attack and Special Attack. Now if Pidgeot were faster and more bulkier, this would be acceptable. But I guess that is a plus.

I noticed the pain is coming from deep regions (or how I have to say that). ^^ I hoped I could make a consistent story this time, but I am always dwelling of, so I do not know this would makes much sense after the previous message. The only thing I came to realise is that you are really focussed on comparisons with other birds, while I have the tendency to look for other random Pokémon, which got in my opinion a sort of the same problem as Pidgeot. Anyway, maybe I am hitting some questions to think about... I do not really have the time to revise my story, because... I took me two hours to write down. So yeah, it is more fun to go in-depth, but it takes me so much effort to do!

(Hehe, I saw your edit while I was typing! The giant snake of rocks has just... 45 base attack to create endlessly long tunnel underground and smash itself through massive mountains! )

Eh, the whole point was to show you that Pidgeot has relatively nothing over the other birds. If you compare different Pokemon with different Pokemon, it gets nowhere

I can have an Arcanine and a Gyarados in my team, but they do different things entirely, so it's hard to compare those two. Now comparing Ninetales and Arcanine, as the premier fires of Kanto, is something else. That's why it's pretty hard to make do about that.

Yeah, Onix was messed up. Thank God they had the brains to evolve him into Steelix

[Guested]

I use Pidgeot pretty successfully in my 2vs2 competitive team.

^

This is still true.

[Sunny day]

Sunflora got Earth Power to defend herself against Fire Pokemon, which isn't half bad.

Meh, that is the **th time you are spoiling my arguments with Gen 5 moves, and I do not know anything about Gen 5. So far as I know, Sunflora was a sort of Jellicent you describe (only capable of knowing Sludge Bomb... but everyone knows about that crappy coverage of it).

Eh, the whole point was to show you that Pidgeot has relatively nothing over the other birds. If you compare different Pokemon with different Pokemon, it gets nowhere

Okay, I know my efforts where pointless after all...

Maybe you shall have a word with Guested, as it seems there is any role for Pidgeot left in 2 vs 2 battles? I will not try it for I know nothing about that too.

[wraith89]

Meh, that is the **th time you are spoiling my arguments with Gen 5 moves, and I do not know anything about Gen 5. So far as I know, Sunflora was a sort of Jellicent you describe (only capable of knowing Sludge Bomb... but everyone knows about that crappy coverage of it).

It's HGSS, I believe she can learn Earth Power via Move Tutor. Try it out

Gen V sucks. There are no Earth Power move tutors or anything

Meh at least she knows Sludge Bomb. I'd be happy if Lilligant can learn Sludge Bomb or something, but I guess she's too prim and proper for that. Where did Jellicent come from?

Okay, I know my efforts where pointless after all...

Maybe you shall have a word with Guested, as it seems there is any role for Pidgeot left in 2 vs 2 battles? I will not try it for I know nothing about that too.

Eh it's not pointless. It's more so that we both had some misunderstandings on what we were comparing it to.

In Gen V, you can have Pidgeot Hurricane the living daylights out of the other team's Pokemon, I guess, while also giving support via Helping Hand from a partner or something. That I can see happening. There are other ways, I'm guessing, but in Gen IV, I only played 1 v 1 most of the time, using Agility and attempting to flinch people with Air Slash >_>

@ Guested: I wonder what you run on Pidgeot :B

[Guested]

@ Guested: I wonder what you run on Pidgeot :B

It's a secret.

The guy who just won Worlds (and won last year) won with the same strategy I have been using since before PBR came out.

What was your strategy and keys to victory?

Using Pokémon that players weren’t too sure about, Pokémon you didn’t see a lot. I think that helped a lot.

He didn't use Pidgeot, obviously, but he used the same theory. Pokemon isn't JUST about numbers.

My Pidgeot definitely serves a purpose to the team it is on, and after it's done its job it can use Brave Bird to deal enough damage on its way out. There's pretty much no need to OHKO anything in Double or Triple battles. Utility Pokemon can be VERY useful, especially if they can take a hit or three before fainting.

[wraith89]

Oh I see. Secrets should be kept secret. Pokemon definitely isn't just numbers, even if it 'literally is'. I've been using Pidgeot in very unorthodox ways (I like to run special versions for some weird reasons along with things like Featherdance), but physically, I think U-turning out to a counter and back until they are weakened enough to fall from Return or Brave Bird is perfectly acceptable.

Yeah, Doubles is a radically different game from Singles so things do work differently I guess. That maxim definitely holds true; using Pokemon nobody expects can certainly throw people off. And OHKOing is for noobs

[Undreth]

Hi! Sorry to bump this (by now) old post, but it seems you got some of your wishes fulfilled. I, for one, couldn't believe my luck when I saw that Mega Pidgeot was heavily invested in Special Attack - in fact, a 65 base point increase (to 135 total, with no increase in Attack), No Guard, Hurricane and Heat Wave. I just thought "meant to be". Brilliant. Now if it only would learn Focus Blast... :tongue:

Maybe someone high up in GameFreak actually had a closer look at your post. It's very well thought out and precisely put. I came here through a search for something like "why does Pidgeotto learn Wing Attack so friggin' late".

Thanks again, hope I didn't broke too many rules by posting here.

[wraith89]

Wow yeah, I know. It was exactly made the way I wanted it to be! It was lorewise, completely wind oriented. Believe it or not, during the early days of XY, my first breeding project was actually Timid Pidgeys because I kept telling myself Gamefreak will make a specially based Mega. Lo and behold, it comes true in ORAS! I still have many more left, I believe, and I'm sure people on Miracle Trade were wondering what I was thinking when I spouted out massive Timid Pidgeys. Eh heh. ORAS megas, though, completely destroy the balance of XY Megas because almost none of them have any stats added to irrelevant stats as mega (such as + 20 Attack on Mega Gardevoir). Yeah, it should learn Focus Blast, but Gamefreak always thinks they have the "balance right", now Mega Pidgeot cannot OHKO Pikachu with Hurricane (it could if Pikachu did not get a defensive buff, or if Hurricane was not nerfed). But still, Mega Pidgeot is actually a force to be reckoned with, at least.

We don't have necroposting rules here (as long as topic in question is relevant or whatever), so feel free to post more.

[Undreth]

Thanks! Interesting point about XY vs. ORAS megas, did not know Mega Gardevoir got an attack buff. Still, if it got 185 Sp. Atk I would cry.

At the moment, I'm wrecking balls in the Battle Tower with Pidgeot as my third Pokémon, cleaning up the leftover mess.

Have you done other "projects" similar to the Pidgeot problem?

[wraith89]

I'd say the biggest offender is Mega Mewtwo Y, being slower than Mega Alakazam, gaining an unnecessary + 40 on Attack, while simultaneously lowering its Defence, making going Mega rather not so useful except for the Special Defence buff. Sure, the primals also got a + 40 on their unneeded attack to balance them, but Mewtwo really has nothing going for it with an ordinary ability like Insomnia. But this would be going off tangent here.

Pidgeot, from what I gather, seems to be a great late game cleaner. It's a shame it is slower than Greninja by 1 point in base speed, but Hurricanes that do not miss is something very scary. It probably does not have Focus Blast because Gamefreak is pandering to their new legendaries like Tornadus Therian and saying it cannot completely outclass it. Still liking the fact I really tried to run a special Pidgeot all the way back in Generation IV as well, when its "ultimate move" was Air Slash, and Green's ultimate Pokemon was a Pidgeot.

http://projectpokemon.org/forums/showthread.php?10806-Brave-Bird!

I ran Pidgeot as my bird in most games where it was available, and even in my X version as my bird Pokemon, soloing every Sky Battles in the game, including that Aerodactyl surprise (Featherdance + Roost is amazing). It also brings some fun memories when I was still collecting the 7th badge, I had Wifi on, and a Japanese passerby challenges me, leading with a scary Mega Mawile with Swords Dance. I guess he did not know Swords Dance had more PP than Featherdance, but it was very funny when he actually forfeited against my in-game team. Unfortunately, I was unable to save that battle and many others because VS Seeker was not available before I beat the league. Pidgeot is definitely something if you can do funny things with it. My biggest qualm is them introducing the Mega Stone in a game where it is of complete irrelevance storywise. Gamefreak please... it would have served well in XY for nostalgia's sakes

I'm unsure what you mean by other "projects", but I can probably list the flaws of most mons you can name me functional-wise because power creeping is real. Closest thing I can tell you is this:

http://projectpokemon.org/forums/showthread.php?5524-Top-10-Most-Disappointing-Pokemon-of-2009

I wrote that long ago, and at that point I probably didn't know any better, as I thought competitively and nothing else (and flavour wise too). But I can actually see most mons do have some roles attached. Surely, things like Kricketune will remain obscure forever, but even THAT got Sticky Web, a relatively rare technique. Gamefreak, when designing competitive stats and such, seems to be having double battles in mind, and it has become abundantly clear to me they do not really playtest their games that much (I'll probably state a bit more on that at some other time lest I digress). It really should not have surprised them that Aegislash was used mostly as a special attacker when they designed it as a physical mon in mind when it has equal stats in both and the movepool to use them, for example. But yes, I can probably make viable sets for most mons in singles or doubles environment. In South Korea, they all seem to hail Pachirisu of all mons as God-chirisu because 박세준 (Park Sejun) won the championships while using one, though really, it is not because it is amazing by itself, but rather it fit with his team well for his Gyarados, which people seem to fail to understand.