Starcraft II:Wings of Liberty

[Gin]

Yeah, I thought I'd post this for anyone who wants to play it/played it/whatever. Discuss

[Gin]

Well, I play Z, and I've been having trouble generally dealing with Thor/SCV building comps. When they put in hellions it makes it even worse. This is fairly early game.

[RenegadeShroom]

Thor/Hellion builds? I believe that you can use a trick referred to as 'magic boxing' with mutalisks to deal with thors.

. Also keep in mind that you don't need to run away from vikings with mutas, as mutas counter them.

Also, Ultralisks: <3 <3 <3

[wraith89]

... and this is why I want my Wraiths back... though Vikings still rock.

And people actually build Hellions? I was under the impression it had a rather very specific niche (much like the Vultures) so it would be hard to utilize them efficiently. But since I do not even have the game, I wouldn't even know how the current metagame is like...

[RenegadeShroom]

Hellion drops into the worker lines are popular. Especially with the infernal preigniter upgrade. It's because their damage is dealt in a straight line, so once they get to your mineral line, your workers are screwed.

[wraith89]

I liked doing that with Vultures better... or Firebats even. Of course Hellions would destroy workers. Actually, funny thing is, that's the best use I got out of Vultures in SC1; zoom across their static defenses and destroy the workers one by one. But they had an auxiliary Spider Mine skill to work around with (cheap 75 minerals/2 food/30 seconds units... can't argue with that!). The thing about Hellions though... is that they pretty much need that Infernal pre-igniter upgrade to be even effective at what they're supposed to do, and since Zealots have Charge and all that now, they're not as great of a counter to those early game units as I'd expect them to be. I think Hellions need their roles to be more broadened...

It seems the games are accelerated... as you are talking about early drops and stuff like that and Thors. Either that, or I am wayyyy too slow (or don't play enough...)... and I still want my Wraiths... and Science Vessels! Oh well... balanced e-sports or whatever the heck they call it don't want even further broken units...

[RenegadeShroom]

Hellions are actually quite awesome against Marines, Zerglings an Zealots, they just need a bit of micro to manage it. Especially when those nooby T1 units line up. Hellions, along with Reapers, are only really meant for base harassment, and those are their primary roles.

EDIT: Actually, speedlings own hellions, they surround really well. :]

You get Wraiths and Science vessels in the campaign. As well as medics, firebats, vultures and goliaths.

[wraith89]

You see.. that's why it kinda sucks... Hellions are supposed to beat Zerglings, not the other way around... maybe there is a fundamental weakness in its design... perhaps the stop and shoot on sight thing?

Forget about the campaign... you get almost ANYTHING in the campaign... even the broken Diamondbacks (previously known as Cobras).

[Gin]

The problem with Magic Box is that you still lose cost for cost. Thors are supposed to counter them Mutas, MB is just a way to lose less badly. Plus, the SCVs repair pretty fast, which helps keep the thor alive long enough to finish it off. I've been using baneling mines and trying the Speedling Hold/attack move thing, but if they have like 4 or more thor/SCV balls, speedling trick is REALLY tough to execute and the thors kill them faster. Another thing is mass Ravens... if they play banshee and viking aong with some bio, it hurts pretty bad...

[RenegadeShroom]

You see.. that's why it kinda sucks... Hellions are supposed to beat Zerglings, not the other way around... maybe there is a fundamental weakness in its design... perhaps the stop and shoot on sight thing?

Well, I daresay Terran has a slight advantage over Zerg anyway, so it's good that lings counter Hellions. Anyway, speedlings are great on pretty much all heavy or mech units, due to their awesome surrounding capabilities. Couple that with their attack speed upgrade, and attack/armour upgrades from evo chamber, they are incredibly useful against ground armies, especially with mutas.

Do Brood Lords + Corrupter counter Thors? 'Cause Corruption + Broodlings seems an incredibly deadly combination. As for MB, most people usually don't get more than 3/4 Thors in a push with their ball, and you should have enough (about 20 - 30?) mutas to easily overpower them. Thor: 300/200(x3)/(x4) = 900/600 OR 1200/800. Mutalisk: 100/100(x20)/(x30) = 2000/2000 OR 3000/3000. This is going cost-for-cost, but in SC, cost of an army doesn't determine who wins, but MBing four Thors with 30 mutalisks should work, no?

[wraith89]

Even though Terrans are advantageous over Zergs in certain aspects (but certainly not in mobility and whatnot), the fact that a unit was DESIGNED to counter a pack of Zerglings and yet gets countered by the unit it is supposed to counter is kind of weird...

Brood Lords, if its range is longer than Thor's GtA attack, then it should be fine. It's no Goliath with Charon Booster, after all.

And cost of army, although it works mathematically, you have to factor in MANY things before saying that "because this unit is less expensive and more easy to produce it counters X unit which is more expensive". Not always... remember that it depends on the player and the map and other external factors.

Wow, SC is so different now... people actually mass the non attacking spellcasters. Ravens... how do they compare to Science Vessels?

[RenegadeShroom]

And cost of army, although it works mathematically, you have to factor in MANY things before saying that "because this unit is less expensive and more easy to produce it counters X unit which is more expensive". Not always... remember that it depends on the player and the map and other external factors.

This is going cost-for-cost, but in SC, cost of an army doesn't determine who wins, but MBing four Thors with 30 mutalisks should work, no?

I'm pretty sure it wasn't designed to counter Zerglings in an open field. Hellions Line damage makes it ideal for defending/attacking in tight spaces against units that need a surround to work. Terrain is a key factor in how units are used in SC, siege tanks and toss wall offs, for example.

[wraith89]

Firebats counter Zerglings easily... why couldn't Hellions who have more health (than the former Firebat at least?) and attack very similarly? Hellions, like Firebats and Vultures, are effective on small units, and Zerglings fall under that category. Not to mention Splash damage = roasted Zerglings. But if they fail that... there needs to be some design modifications. Terrain got nerfed though... as there is no longer 30% obscurity bonus for higher ground or trees or the sorts... which really sucks.

And sorry... I'm quite tired now so I didn't read that statement of yours. Ha ha. Seems we are on the same page though.

[RenegadeShroom]

Well, you're not supposed to let your units get surrounded by lings ever, the only Terran unit I can think of that can break that 'rule' is the Planetary Fortress, due it's insane splash damage. So, a Hellion wall-off against a purely zergling attack works well. In fact, there's a micromanagement challenge where you have to do that with your hellions, else they get owned.

[wraith89]

Never had that problem with Firebats... Vultures had a harder time though because they're mostly "hit and run" type, so they're best against Protoss but bad against Zergs, despite being the fastest unit in the game. I think it's the fact Hellions NEED the upgrade to even do a lot against Zerglings... I don't know, but something about their design is flawed, I cannot grasp what it is though. Firebat + Vulture seems AWESOME in theory... I mean, it has the speed of a Vulture and the attack of a Firebat, something a Vulture needed to deal with mass Zerglings aside from using mines, but... something is wrong. Hellions shouldn't even let 'Lings do that

Class time! See you in an hour!

[RenegadeShroom]

Like I said, you just need to avoid being surrounded, and you're good. Lowering a supply depot at your wall off and filling it with hellions seems like a good counter to lings.

[wraith89]

Easier said than done

When Terrans continuously wall rather than attack, they WILL lose.

It's not only 'lings that are the problem. You saying Zerglings being a great counter to Hellions makes me rather worried. Zealots with Charge Upgrade renders Hit + Run tactics on Hellions useless... and Marines can still shoot them from afar anyhow... maybe if their roles were not TOO confined... when Siege Tanks behind walls can do the same thing... maybe even better. Perhaps bring back mines or something? I don't know... anything to let them see a much wider usage.

[RenegadeShroom]

It takes a long time to get charge, and it's fairly expensive too:

Pylon -> Gateway -> Cybernetics Core -> Twilight Council -> Charge:

100 + 150 + 150 + 150(?)/150 + 150/150 -> 700/300

That's the lowest possible cost for Charge, overall, assuming you make only one pylon and no zealots up until that point. And it takes a very long time too.

Hellions (+Preigniter upgrade):

Depot & Barracks -> Factory -> Tech Lab -> Preigniter:

100 + 150 + 200/150 + 50/25 + 100/100 -> 600/275

Note that Terran can build the supply depot/barracks at the same time, so that significantly cuts down building time.

As for Zerglings, they effectively counter each other, but in different situations and terrains. Zergling > Hellion in open area, but Hellion > Zergling in confined space. Hit and run is only for early harass, and hellions are easily replenishable mid-late game. Mines, well, that would give Terran a rather large upper hand. Double layer of defence + best building wall in the game? Yowch.

And if you surround a thor with hellions, zerglings get owned by hellions. Jus' saying. This applies to all buildings and mech.

[wraith89]

Forget about the expenses... yeah I realized the Protoss upgrades for tier 1 were rather WAY too late. But even so, it still makes them viable even at late game. (Marauders and their dumb concussive grenade can be attained even earlier ) The Protoss has a lot of cool nifty tricks anyhow, such as Chrono Boost or Warp Gates and all.

Supply Depot + Barracks at the same time... well it depends if they have the resources or not. USUALLY, I end up building a Depot first and it shaves off a lot of minerals. But if you mean that Protoss needs the Pylon to even build the Gateway, fair enough, although to make up for it, a Probe can MULTITASK.

Open area Zerglings can destroy anything... even tanks and stuff. But the fact that a Hellion was designed to go out in the open and cannot really defeat Zerglings otherwise... is kinda bad. Mines was just a point to show you that Vultures still had some sort of usage late game. Hellions... eh not really. I mean, the Protoss shields do not even take full damage anymore. I was just suggesting SOMETHING to help Hellions somewhat... because their roles are TOO confined into a specific niche, and I think it needs to be expanded a LITTLE bit?

I'm not suggesting Hellions are completely useless, I found a lot of use in peon destruction and all (much like Vultures, rush them in, past static defenses, and destroy 'em peons!)...

[RenegadeShroom]

THIS IS INSANE. INSANE. (The video)

[wraith89]

The whole thing about Korea... is kind of overexaggerated. Though I won't be surprised if Blizzard Entertainmentism becomes the most popular "religion" of the Republic of South Korea > : (

Though... I lived in the traditional village area with frogs and ducks, not in the city, so I suppose life is different there.

BTW nice APM video... but I think I've seen it before.

[Gin]

For any Zerg players out there:

Try the 3rr. IT IS INSANELY GOOD.

I was experimenting with fast roaches, but this guy optimized it... It IS fast aggro, though so if you don't like that style, don't try it

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/933033955

[wraith89]

That's a rather scary strategy... but rather micro intense and aggression heavy. Has it helped you win games Gin? I'm not completely sure what counters it at ~5:30 into the game though unless someone specifically builds a build order that destroys this, and I doubt that will happen unless it becomes VERY popular.

Just reading that thread... people are developing mixed feelings about it. I wouldn't call it a cheese but... still rather quick. An all-in I guess... but of course, it won't work on Zergs. But Zerg vs Zerg games are just the worst things to have ever plagued Bnet.

[Gin]

So far, it's been winning games pretty well. Really, the only way to beat it is forge->cannon before the gateway, and if you're doing that, then chances are you suck anyway (I just played a match where this guy had cannons up, so I just pulled back and macroed up to 200/200 while having mutas bounce from his three bases,