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Standard Rules (as of April 15 from Smogon.com)+General Smogon discussion

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Pokemon Platinum marks the newest phase in the Pokemon Metagame. For a long time, a website named Smogon has been put in charge of organizing the competitive Pokemon scene. Smogon can be related to Smashboards in terms of importance and influence.

It has been accepted throughout the Pokemon community that whenever two people battle with each other they follow what we call "Standard Rules." These rules have been fashioned by Smogon.com to ensure the balance of battle. Here is what these rules contain:

No Ubers

First and foremost, Standard rules deny the usage of Uber Pokemon. These Pokemon overcentralize the standard gameplay and have been deemed too powerful.

- Arceus

- Darkrai

- Deoxys (all forms)

- Dialga

- Garchomp

- Giratina (Both forms)

- Groudon

- Ho-oh

- Kyogre

- Latias (with Soul Dew)

- Latios

- Lugia

- Manaphy

- Mew

- Mewtwo

- Palkia

- Rayquaza

- Shaymin (Sky Form only)

- Wobbuffet

- Wynaut

Why are Garchomp and Wobbuffet banned?

Garchomp and Wobbuffet/Wynaut are the only two/three Pokemon deemed Uber who are not legendary. Both have similar reasons. Neither of them have counters. Wobbuffet's ability, Shadow Tag, prevents switch-outs and draws battles into unneccessary lengths of time.

Garchomp's ban was established a few months after the dreadul "Yachechomp" set was created. Yachechomp is the name for a Garchomp holding a Yache Berry, one of the 16 berries that decreases the damage of a super effective attack. Yache Berry decreases the power of Ice attacks. This berry essentially makes it so that no Pokemon can successfully switch into battle against Garchomp and defeat him.

Evasion Clause

Moves that boost evasion, such as Double Team and Minimize are not allowed. Abilities that boost evasion such as Snow Cloak and Sand Veil are still allowed. The item Bright Powder is also still allowed. The reasoning behind this is simple. If moves like these were allowed, the gameplay would be overcome with poor accuracy and would essentially turn into a game based solely on luck.

Freeze Clause

No two Pokemon may be frozen at the same time. There is no move as of current time that solely freezes a Pokemon, therefore this Clause cannot be enforced except for in controlled environments such as Battle Revolution and Shoddy.

OHKO Clause

Moves that cause a one-hit KO such as Sheer Cold and Fissure are not allowed. Similar to the Evasion Clause, luck should not win a battle but rather strategy.

Sleep Clause

The players may not put more than one Pokemon on the opponent's side to Sleep. The move Rest is not affected by this Clause. If it were not for this clause, Pokemon like Breloom, Butterfree and Darkrai would run rampant putting everything they see to sleep, preventing the player from essentially doing anything.

Species Clause

No two Pokemon of the same species may be used on the same team. For example, two Gardevoirs would violate this clause but a Gardevoir and a Gallade does not. This is because teams are suited for countering specific Pokemon only once. A team of Zapdoses would essentially require everyone to have a Blissey. It would destroy the balance of the metagame, and just imagine a team of 6 Arceus.

Self KO Clause

If both players have only one Pokemon remaining in battle moves that KO the user, such as Explosion or Destiny Bond, are not allowed. If a player uses a move that causes recoil damage such as Flare Blitz ends the game in both Pokemon fainting, the player that attacked LAST is announced the winner. This is largely because the player knows full well before hand that a move like Flare Blitz will have the chance of fainting their Pokemon. This clause is also available in PBR.

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In addition to the Standard rules, there are also some clauses people may initiate when starting a battle. They include the following:

Item Clause

A Clause heavily enforced by all official Nintendo tournaments. Players are not allowed to have two or more of the same item on any of their Pokemon. Few players will initiate this rule, largely due to leftovers being very popular.

Hax Clause

This Clause bans the use of the items listed below:

- Brightpowder

- Quick Claw

- Focus Band

- King's Rock

The reasoning behind Hax Clause is similar to the Evasion Clause. Either way, most of the time the player using Hax items would get a far larger advantage if they were to use an item like Life Orb or Leftovers.

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Tiers

There are currently six tiers in addition to the aforementioned Ubers Tier. They are Overused (OU),Underused (UU), Borderline (BL), Neverused (NU) and Not Fully Evolved (NFE). A Pokemon's ranking is determined by their overall usage. Obviously, the strongest Pokemon are used the most. Pokemon like Yanmega are strong but they are just not used that often, typically as a result of how other Pokemon are used.

Even though there are six tiers, there are only three styles of gameplay.

"Ubers" enable the usage of every Pokemon available. Obviously, the best Pokemon to use are in the Uber Tier which was previously mentioned.

"Standard" is the style of gameplay most people play with. All Pokemon are permitted to be used in this style of gameplay except for Ubers. This is the default mode every player uses unless the player specifically states that they want to play "Ubers" or "UU"

"UU", or "UU/NU" gameplay is a mode where Uber, OU and BL Pokemon are all banned.

These are the tiers as of April 15 2009.

Overused:

- Aerodactyl

- Alakazam

- Azelf

- Blissey

- Breloom

- Bronzong

- Celebi

- Cresselia

- Donphan

- Dragonite

- Dugtrio

- Dusknoir

- Electivire

- Empoleon

- Flygon

- Forretress

- Gengar

- Gliscor

- Gyarados

- Heatran

- Heracross

- Hippowdon

- Infernape

- Jirachi

- Jolteon

- Lucario

- Machamp

- Magnezone

- Mamoswine

- Metagross

- Ninjask

- Porygon-Z

- Rhyperior

- Salamence

- Scizor

- Skarmory

- Smeargle

- Snorlax

- Starmie

- Suicune

- Swampert

- Tentacruel

- Togekiss

- Tyranitar

- Vaporeon

- Weavile

- Zapdos

Borderline:

- Abomasnow

- Froslass

- Gallade

- Raikou

- Staraptor

Underused:

- Absol

- Altaria

- Ambipom

- Arcanine

- Azumarril

- Blastoise

- Blaziken

- Chansey

- Charizard

- Claydol

- Clefable

- Crobat

- Drapion

- Electrode

- Espeon

- Feraligatr

- Gardevoir

- Hariyama

- Hitmonlee

- Hitmontop

- Honchkrow

- Houndoom

- Kabutops

- Lanturn

- Ludicolo

- Magmortar

- Mesprit

- Milotic

- Miltank

- Mismagius

- Moltres

- Muk

- Nidoking

- Nidoqueen

- Ninetales

- Omastar

- Poliwrath

- Porygon2

- Primeape

- Regirock

- Registeel

- Roserade

- Rotom

- Sceptile

- Scyther

- Shaymin

- Slowbro

- Spiritomb

- Steelix

- Swellow

- Torterra

- Toxicroak

- Typhlosion

- Umbreon

- Uxie

- Venusaur

- Weezing

- Yanmega

Neverused:

- Aggron

- Ampharos

- Arbok

- Ariados

- Armaldo

- Articuno

- Banette

- Bastiodon

- Beautifly

- Beedrill

- Bellossom

- Bibarel

- Butterfree

- Cacturn

- Camerupt

- Carnivine

- Castform

- Chatot

- Cherrim

- Chimecho

- Clamperl

- Cloyster

- Corsola

- Cradily

- Crawdaunt

- Delcatty

- Delibird

- Dewgong

- Ditto

- Dodrio

- Drifblim

- Dunsparce

- Dustox

- Entei

- Exeggutor

- Exploud

- Farfetch'd

- Fearow

- Flareon

- Floatzel

- Furret

- Gastrodon

- Girafarig

- Glaceon

- Glalie

- Golduck

- Golem

- Gorebyss

- Granbull

- Grumpig

- Hitmonchan

- Huntail

- Hypno

- Illumise

- Jumpluff

- Jynx

- Kangaskhan

- Kecleon

- Kingler

- Kricketune

- Lapras

- Leafeon

- Ledian

- Lickilicky

- Linoone

- Lopunny

- Lumineon

- Lunatone

- Luvdisc

- Luxray

- Magcargo

- Manectric

- Mantine

- Marowak

- Masquerain

- Mawile

- Medicham

- Meganium

- Mightyena

- Minun

- Mothim

- Mr. Mime

- Noctowl

- Octillery

- Pachirisu

- Parasect

- Pelipper

- Persian

- Phione

- Pidgeot

- Pikachu

- Pinsir

- Plusle

- Politoed

- Probopass

- Purugly

- Quagsire

- Qwilfish

- Raichu

- Rampardos

- Rapidash

- Raticate

- Regice

- Regigigas

- Relicanth

- Sableye

- Sandslash

- Seaking

- Seviper

- Sharpedo

- Shedinja

- Shiftry

- Shuckle

- Skuntank

- Slaking

- Slowking

- Solrock

- Spinda

- Stantler

- Sudowoodo

- Sunflora

- Swalot

- Tangrowth

- Tauros

- Torkoal

- Trapinch

- Tropius

- Unown

- Ursaring

- Venomoth

- Vespiqueen

- Victreebel

- Vigoroth

- Vileplume

- Volbeat

- Wailord

- Walrein

- Whiscash

- Wigglytuff

- Wormadam (All forms)

- Xatu

- Zangoose

Not Fully Evolved:

Everything else. There's 221 of them, all of which are... not fully evolved. Keep in mind that Chansey, Trapinch, Porygon 2, Dusclops and Scyther are not in this tier despite not being fully evolved.

Well, thats it. These are the rules we all play by. Check Smogon.com for more information. As time progresses, standards change.

Edited by randomspot555
Fact is, we use these rules for the RMT board and Shoddy.

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Pokemon Platinum marks the newest phase in the Pokemon Metagame. For a long time, a website named Smogon has been put in charge of organizing the competitive Pokemon scene. Smogon can be related to Smashboards in terms of importance and influence.

It has been accepted throughout the Pokemon community that whenever two people battle with each other they follow what we call "Standard Rules." These rules have been fashioned by Smogon.com to ensure the balance of battle.

Do we have a "dying of laughter" emoticon, here? Because I really, really need one right now. :bidoof:

Anyway, carry on, but you know just as well as I do what the fate of this thread is.

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Do we have a "dying of laughter" emoticon, here? Because I really, really need one right now. :bidoof:

Just because you don't agree or enjoy Smogon doesn't mean you can deny their importance to the development of the competitive metagame in North America. It's pretty much the only community out there that has established themselves, done research. and had staying. With any other fan sites MIGHT have a small section on competitive battling and a fairly small userbase of battlers.

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Just because you don't agree or enjoy Smogon doesn't mean you can deny their importance to the development of the competitive metagame in North America. It's pretty much the only community out there that has established themselves, done research. and had staying. With any other fan sites MIGHT have a small section on competitive battling and a fairly small userbase of battlers.

I can deny whatever I please, but regardless, it was more the reference to Smashboards that had my gut aching. If you need me to explain why the majority of those people are batshit crazy, well...

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Just because you don't agree or enjoy Smogon doesn't mean you can deny their importance to the development of the competitive metagame in North America. It's pretty much the only community out there that has established themselves, done research. and had staying. With any other fan sites MIGHT have a small section on competitive battling and a fairly small userbase of battlers.

Well no community is going to change that if they just say "we'll do whatever smogon says".

We want this to be our community not a copy-cat community. Yes, it will take a while to collect data and do research that other communities have already done. But we'll never get that if we just use someone else's. Sure I could have downloaded veekun's sql files for the pokedex. But I did not because I want OUR dex to be made by US.

For competitive battling we will be making OUR rules and modifying them as WE see fit.

I'll leave this open for now. But I will reserve the right to close it if I don't like how its going.

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Smogon is:

Trying to create order and predictability in a game that had the intention of being 100% customizable and unpredictable (in terms of added probabilities in addition to the normal user-controlled aspects).

The only thing that makes me sicker than Standard Rules is Standard Movesets/EVs

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I don't agree with 90% of those rules. While it is true that Game Freak and Nintendo may not have tested every possible scenario for the game, clauses such as the hax clause, and sleep clause are ridiculous.

I don't mind discussion of these rules, but I can promise you that they will never be made official by this website. I also would personally never follow these rules.

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As much as I hate to say it, no matter what we do to try and deviate away from smogon competitive battling rules, we will still be influenced by them.

To come to the consensus and to get the data that's been collected, to have these rules requires people, and most importantly, peoples time, people that know what there doing.

Smogon has these people (a few), if we had our own team to try and gather data, using statistics and all the other time consuming shit blah blah blah, if we wanted to have a BALANCED metagame, we'd MOST likely get the same results smogon has been pumping out for years.

I know what i mean in my head.. more clearly than i can type it out here.. but I think just because smogon is the forerunner for these rules and such, we shouldn't feel bad for using them. There to help the entire Pokemon battling community, not just smogons.

And for the people that dont like standard rules, things like sleep clause, tiers etc....come the fuck on seriously, if you want to play COMPETITIVE battles, you need a BALANCED metagame. Why would you ever play someone that uses random ubers with there heatrans and blisseys and puts to sleep half your team in the first few turns...

come on..the rules work, there trying to balance it out so the experience is FUNNER.

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I don't agree with 90% of those rules. While it is true that Game Freak and Nintendo may not have tested every possible scenario for the game, clauses such as the hax clause, and sleep clause are ridiculous.

I don't mind discussion of these rules, but I can promise you that they will never be made official by this website. I also would personally never follow these rules.

Hax Clause isn't standard. But it is a fairly well known and used alternate clause. Regardless of it being enforced or not, any listing of clauses should at least mention it. So that when someone does initiate that clause on a battle request, people can look it up and find it out.

But I don't see why Sleep Clause is ridiculous. It's standard almost anywhere you go, including communities that make their own rules and tiers from the ground up.

I also would like to know how this site is coming up with, for example, the tier list (so far the only thing up original to the site and competiitve battling rules). Yes, I know it's origin (from the old Pokesav forums), but the method of determining what goes where, or even the existance of multiple "middle tier" (BL, NL?) isn't explained.

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Smogon has these people (a few), if we had our own team to try and gather data, using statistics and all the other time consuming shit blah blah blah, if we wanted to have a BALANCED metagame, we'd MOST likely get the same results smogon has been pumping out for years.

What exactly is the definition of BALANCED metagame?

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To stop kids complaning about being beat by legendaries

Load of crap to be honest

I find legendaries easier to beat than normal pokemon

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To stop kids complaning about being beat by legendaries

Load of crap to be honest

I find legendaries easier to beat than normal pokemon

"Legendary Pokemon" don't inherently carry an advantage, as far as battling is concerned.

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What exactly is the definition of BALANCED metagame?

Dunno about an official defintion but...You can never counter every threat in the DPPt metagame, there are just too many of them to effectively have a solution, with just six pokemon. By trying to make the metagame balanced..you eliminate the broken aspects so that each player actually has a shot at beating the other. 'Hax' throws a wrench in this though, so things like 'hax' clause try and alleviate this a little.

Of course you gotta know how to construct a well made team to TRY and counter the current metagames top threats, but by removing certain aspects of the game (ex. the tiers), and providing movesets, standard or not, it gives every player a shot at winning in a battle.

Balanced might not even be the right term, maybe Orderly is more correct.

---------- Post added at 02:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:19 PM ----------

To stop kids complaning about being beat by legendaries

Load of crap to be honest

I find legendaries easier to beat than normal pokemon

Legendaries? You mean things like heatran, azelf, celebi jirachi, etc? The ones I just mentioned are all OU.

The only reason someone should complain by being beaten 'legendaries' is if they got beat by an UBER tier legendary pokemon (ex Mewtwo), while they were using a team consisting of pokemon from a lower tier...because well, it's not fair to use Uber tier pokemon against OU/UU/NU's

Even then, why would anyone complain? People should know the rules laid out for a battle there about to get into..

---------- Post added at 02:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 PM ----------

"Legendary Pokemon" don't inherently carry an advantage, as far as battling is concerned.

I'd say they do. If your talking about OU legendary pokemon (azelf, celebi etc..)

There base stats, coupled with there movesets and typings obviously put them above some other pokemon, thats why most legendary pokemon are in high usage.

I assume your talking about JUST OU legendaries because..to say Uber tier pokemon don't inherently carry an advantage over other pokemon is..foolish

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A Balanced Metagame is where no single Pokemon overwhelms the game and permits the usage of a wide variety of characters. Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix is a balanced metagame. Super Smash Brothers Brawl is not.

The Smogon testing of Garchomp was one such example. Garchomp was being so overused that people needed to create teams solely to be able to counter Garchomp. Of course, no counter was to be found in the end. Even if a Pokemon like Scizor reaches the usage Garchomp was at, Scizor has counters. Heatran, Zapdos, Bulky Waters, etc. There's a lot. After a single Swords Dance, Garchomp had zero.

Anywho, back on topic. Obviously something like that causes an inbalance in the game. So, to remedy it the people who the entire Pokemon community have trusted since their creation performed tests to fix it, and they did. It wasn't one person saying "Oh, Garchomp should be banned," it was a community effort put together by strategists that have proved their worth.

Sleep Clause was never a real problem before Breloom. 100% accuracy with Spore. Yeah, thats fair. Sleep the opponent and just use Focus Punch/Seed Bomb a lot. If it weren't for Sleep Clause Breloom could devastate teams be itself. Its not like Togekiss' paraflinch where its just butthurt (hax), its just not fair.

Not to mention its also an official Nintendo clause that can be activated in PBR...

Also, Nintendo doesn't make competitive games. The community turns their games into competition. If Sakurai really cared about competitive play in Brawl he would have worked on balancing issues far more than he did. 60% of the community wants Metaknight banned, and thats just for SMASHBOARDS where there hardcore players go. Also, Nintendo hasn't banned Garchomp either. To those entering the 2009 Showdown, use Zapdos/Garchomp. Its so powerful its not even funny.

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I'd say they do. If your talking about OU legendary pokemon (azelf, celebi etc..)

All "Legendary Pokemon" are are "A Pokemon deemed Legendary by Gamefreak." While some Legendary are powerful and used a lot (Heatran, Zapdos), so are many non-legends. And some legendary Pokemon just suck (Phione, Articuno)

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All "Legendary Pokemon" are are "A Pokemon deemed Legendary by Gamefreak." While some Legendary are powerful and used a lot (Heatran, Zapdos), so are many non-legends. And some legendary Pokemon just suck (Phione, Articuno)

Saying legendary pokemon is too broad, it'd be easier to state exactly which pokemon your talking about that don't inherently carry an advantage over others (in their respective tier)

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I also would like to know how this site is coming up with, for example, the tier list (so far the only thing up original to the site and competiitve battling rules). Yes, I know it's origin (from the old Pokesav forums), but the method of determining what goes where, or even the existance of multiple "middle tier" (BL, NL?) isn't explained.

I too would like to see how this forum intends to create its own metagame using nothing but the information random players post on the boards.

Also, another thing, why is it so bad to have a site that uses another site's information? I can understand creating a ProjectPokemon Pokedex (to match Serebii's) and wiki (More hack information than general knowledge like Bulbapedia's), but why go as far as creating a seperate metagame? It can't be a pride issue, nearly everyone hates us (but secretely envies us) anyway. I just can't understand it. Its like a State wanting to be apart of the USA but not wanting to follow the Constitution. California isn't a copycat for using the same laws New York uses. Why would ProjectPokemon be considered a copycat for using what everyone else declares to be Standard Rules?

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I too would like to see how this forum intends to create its own metagame using nothing but the information random players post on the boards.

Well, give us time. It hasn't even been a month since we opened. We are still doing many things to build Project Pokémon. If you want to help in the effort to build this communitty that would be great. If not then you are still welcome to come here. But you have to realize that each community has the right to use whatever rules they want. We will do what is neccesary to do this right. It will just take time. Like I said its very easy and convenient to just take someone else's research and result. But we like to do our own research. If we arrive at similar results as smogon, then so be it.

Also, another thing, why is it so bad to have a site that uses another site's information? I can understand creating a ProjectPokemon Pokedex (to match Serebii's) and wiki (More hack information than general knowledge like Bulbapedia's),
The wiki is not about more "hack" information. Its about more correct information. We get correct information by researching and actually looking at the game's code. As far as I know Bulbapedia does not have anyone with the technical abilities to find and write correct stuff about the game. Me, Sabre and tsanth contibuted some articles there. But why help them when we can make our own?
but why go as far as creating a seperate metagame? It can't be a pride issue, nearly everyone hates us (but secretely envies us) anyway. I just can't understand it. Its like a State wanting to be apart of the USA but not wanting to follow the Constitution. California isn't a copycat for using the same laws New York uses. Why would ProjectPokemon be considered a copycat for using what everyone else declares to be Standard Rules?
Well as far as me, it might be that I am a mathematician (as a few smogon people are as well). I don't take things on faith unless they have to be taken on faith. Every site is free to choose to use someone else's rules or not. Its up to them and if we opt to use something we develop, then that is our decision to make. Just because "everyone else" does something doesn't mean that we should as well. Like I said, if our research takes us to the same or very similar results that is fine. But it will be because we put effort into it.

As for your example, this is not the same case. Smogon is not "The Pokemon Community", they are A pokemon community. We are joining the world of pokemon communities, not smogon. We are therefore not required to follow their "constitution".

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Self KO Clause

If both players have only one Pokemon remaining in battle moves that KO the user, such as Explosion or Destiny Bond, are not allowed. If a player uses a move that causes recoil damage such as Flare Blitz ends the game in both Pokemon fainting, the player that attacked LAST is announced the winner.

Sorry for inherent n00b-ness, but does the bolded part mean that the user of the recoil move wins?

Say my opponent and I both have 1 Pokemon left. He has an Abomasnow, I have an Infernape; Abomasnow has, say, three/fourths of his health, but I have 10HP. I use Flare Blitz. I knocks out Abomasnow, but I also faint from recoil. Do I win?

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Aeternus, Abomasnow would win.

Basically, its your "fault" for using a move that caused recoil damage. You knew full well that your Infernape would lose. In a way, its like exploding. You're taking the enemy down at the cost of your Pokemon. If a situation like that occurs on Wifi I believe its a Tie. In PBR, you have the option to turn on the clause. I believe what it does is that it prevents the player from using Explosion if they only have one Pokemon left. Otherwise it ends up in a draw.

You did nothing wrong in choosing Flare Blitz to be a part of Infernape's moveset so don't think that you're wrong. But by choosing Flare Blitz you know full well that those situations might happen. There's a very slim chance of it happening like that, but it exists nonetheless.

SCV, ever heard the quote "Jack of all trades, Master of none"? Well, thats what this site will turn into if we follow your mentality. Smogon litterally has an army of people to get things done. As I said, their statistics are based off of hundreds of thousands of battles. We don't even have 1000 members yet. they have 28k, and thats not including those who just play Shoddy and don't have forum accounts.

Its not a one-man job to make a tier list. Its a thousand-man effort.

Smogon is not "THE" Pokemon community, but its apart of it. They use Serebii for Pokedex information, Bulbapedia for Event and non-mechanic information and Metalkid/Psypokes for calculator knowledge. At the same time, those respective sites use each other for information as well. Gamefaqs gets their knowledge from everywhere. Thats the Pokemon community. We're the ones that are selfish and attempting to create our own community. There's already one thats been set up for years and years. I really don't see the point in creating one that competes with it.

Marrilland tried creating its own community. Its known to every non-Marriland user as a shithole. Libelldra tried a similar thing. It was expected to compete with Smogon. Now the forums get a total of three posts per day. The only good thing they have on that site is the team builder that counts your team's weaknesses and resistances. I really don't want Project Pokemon to be known for one thing, and thats a site where you can download events from. Do you?

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Destati, I want to ask you. Why are you on this site if you support Smogon so much? *Just asking*

Second of all, how battles are done depends on the two (or four) people battling; Unless you just want EVERYONE SINGLE PERSON in this forum (or any other forum), to follow the same specific rules.

I completely agree with SCV. In my point of view, Project Pokemon is just trying to do their own thing, their own way. Is it so wrong to do things a bit differently? The owners of Project Pokemon can do whatever they want, seeing as they, basically, own this site.

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come on..the rules work, there trying to balance it out so the experience is FUNNER.

More. Fun.

Everything looked good until that point. Sorry to burst any bubbles. That's just one thing I don't tolerate very easily. :kikkoman:

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Destati, I want to ask you. Why are you on this site if you support Smogon so much? *Just asking*

Because they are right. They created a balanced gameplay everyone can enjoy. There's no reason not to like Smogon (unless one of your favorite Pokemon is banned of course)

Second of all, how battles are done depends on the two (or four) people battling; Unless you just want EVERYONE SINGLE PERSON in this forum (or any other forum), to follow the same specific rules.

Every other forum follows Smogon. Every forum but us. If you want to have a free-for-all battle with no strings attached, go do it. Problem is, you're not going to get a lot of takers. You'll essentially be constrained to these forums because no one else will want to face a pokemon like Garchomp.

I completely agree with SCV. In my point of view, Project Pokemon is just trying to do their own thing, their own way. Is it so wrong to do things a bit differently? The owners of Project Pokemon can do whatever they want, seeing as they, basically, own this site.

Its wrong because thats not how everyone else wants to play and they have no basis for their assumptions. Lets take Manaphy for example. Greencat still refuses to take Manaphy off of the OU list. Why? Who knows. I on the other hand, can provide you with detailed reasons why Manaphy is Uber and breaks the Metagame.

And again, I don't know what specifically annoys people about Smogon. I still feel like people here hate Smogon solely because they feel like they need to compete with something.

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All "Legendary Pokemon" are are "A Pokemon deemed Legendary by Gamefreak." While some Legendary are powerful and used a lot (Heatran, Zapdos), so are many non-legends. And some legendary Pokemon just suck (Phione, Articuno)

I beg to differ about Articuno. Yes, I realize Articuno isn't as privileged as the other birds (blatant favoritism on Zapdos on Gamefreak's part... really) but Articuno has been able to stall bulky waters and beat some others 1 on 1... and with spin support with Claydol Articuno has worked wonders. You just need to play Articuno right... but those Stealth Rocks hurt >_<

I really don't agree with some of Smogon's rules though... and they have been trying to get rid of the BL tier for ages... but I don't know... why would they drop everything to the UU tier and then make a NU filled with some stuff that could destroy that tier (looks at Articuno and Marowak and Tauros)? Or is it all based on usage?

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