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research Gen 3 Event Generation Algorithm Research (10ANNIV, etc)


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24 minutes ago, ajxpk said:

no one would ever be able to recreate the whole generation process in a 100% accurate way.

Are we talking about trash bytes here? Just mentioning due to colosseum/xd getting rid of those, thus making them virtually the same.

A generator for all the events for me would just be something nice and insteresting to have both for users and documentation purposes on the algorythms, even though I'd rather have compilations of the real deal (which has been in the works for a while) or distro rom dumps.

The only real use would be for those pokémon that came with exclusive moves on the events, as you can get anything else trough legit means and RNG manipulation (probably?).

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@suloku Yes, not just the trash bytes itself so much actually but the fact that they're originating from thumb code, which is something that is impossible to reproduce the same way it originally was. And as a researcher all I can do is documenting the trash bytes that are there in the pk3 files I get, but nothing more than that. 

Speaking of Trash Bytes... I'm not so much a fan of saying "We can just wipe the trash, which is achievable in a legal way and then it's fine.".
I mean you're correct when you say a 3rd gen pokemon with 0 trash bytes is still legal because it's achievable with the use of COL/XD. It is absolutely. But at the same time as it is legal this will also mean that it's touched. And from my own experience of collecting 3rd Gen Events this is also extremely rare, I mean so far I have only witnessed one Event Pokemon with 0 trash, which I'm not even sure about if it's legit...
You can imagine if you have a collection of hundreds of Event Pokemon with 0 trash that would be highly suspicious.
That's why I do think that they play an important role in legality analysis at least when it comes to Gen 3.
And in a legality checker one should be at least informed about the absence of Trash Bytes.
(It doesn't necessarily has to affect the legality, but is still an indicator.)

And don't worry trash isn't really the problem when we talk about the results, except for the events which trash bytes hasn't been documented so far.
What I was talking about is the generation process as a whole and there will never be a 100% legit recreation of it.
I mean if we take the word "legit" seriously we would have to recreate the whole generation process 1:1.
And even this would be already a stretch of the word legit. But let's say if the algorithm would be enough for it being legit.
That's not gonna happen. So we can talk about legal but not legit.



I think I also have to distant myself a little, because some of my collector friends fear that my motive isn't clear.
I personally want to support the legality analysis in the first place. 
So that's on my priority list right now.

But I also have to admit that an open source multiboot rom would be interesting to see indeed.
So I can only wish good luck on that and I'm curious to see the progress. :) 

Edited by ajxpk
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Wouldn't the algorithm generate the trash bytes if it's generating via GBA multiboot? Or are the trash bytes a product of the official distro cart/ROM (or disc/ISO in the case of Berry Glitch Fix Zigzagoon, Ageto Celebi, WISHMAKR Jirachi and CHANNEL Jirachi)?

Ignore that, I didn't see the post above this one.

Ugh, these damn trash bytes are starting to make me think an open source multiboot ROM is only worth it for people who don't care about them. And at that point, just gen.

Ok, I apologize for that. I've had time to calm down. I was just frustrated at seeing "yeah, but the trash bytes" for the millionth time. I get why they're important, but they're still frustrating. Makes me glad GameFreak fully embraced Wonder Cards in Gen 4 and have kept them every since. They make life so much easier.

Besides, the people hoarding events just because they're rare frustrate me even more. But that's a rant for another time.

Edited by Invader TAK
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The trash bytes are unique to the device/rom that generates the pokémon, since they are just what lied in memory when the pokémon was generated (from my point of view I don't see a reason why they didn't clear those bytes, but at the same time, I also don't see a reason why they should have cared).

What I said about Colo/XD removing them is from this point: OK, we know we can't never do 1:1 replication (since that needs the actual distro device, or a copy of it), but if we throw trash aside and just concentrate on what makes the pokémon unique to that event (PID, TID, OT, OTgender, IV, level, met place...etc) and we can replicate that 1:1 that would still be awesome. If you are using a homebrew app to get them I'd personally still prefer single pk3 files from people who actually got the event.

But for personal use? Fun? Gen 4 onwards (since that clears the trash too)? I'd really like to have something like that, albeit I understand the concerns collectors may have, but faking some gen 3 event on gen 4 onwards is really difficult to discern (and many are available anyways).

That's just my personal opinion, actually I think the fact that we can't replicate trash is good, because A) Doesn't matter for gameplay/gen 4 onwards B) It's a good way to quickly know if the pk3 file was just generated C) There's a legit way to get rid of the trash bytes so even generated pokémon can be claimed to be fully legal without having trash bytes.

ps: I think I finally found a way to tell legal from legit appart (I always confuse the correct word), hope I didn't mix them up.
ps2: yes, GF switching to an in-game generation for most events is really nice, gen 1-3 are a nightmare for events....and gen 3 is actually better than those.

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Does anybody know how to check trash bytes on Japanese Pokemon Emerald Method 1 Pokemon, and what might affect the trash bytes in both the OT and Nickname? I would like to know how to check my Mew that Suloku RNG'd.

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@St. GIGA I have no idea about Ingame generated Pokemon. Not even sure if this was ever fully analyzed?

@suloku Yeah this legal/legit part is always confusing.
Especially what's legitimate sometimes isn't clear and needs to be defined specifically...
For my example I already stretched the definition by saying a perfectly replicated algorithm would be enough.
And I know many people would disagree with that... because strictly viewed, only what comes from Nintendo/GF is legit.
But technically viewed I think it would say it's close to be legit. Especially if it comes from a multiboot rom which is even more close.
So I really think that with a multiboot rom, you would come as close as you can get and that's why it's so interesting, right?

Btw. like I already said the Trash Bytes wouldn't even be the issue if we are just talking about legality.
With the exception of Events with variating/dynamic Trash Bytes...
This includes...

Negaiboshi Jirachi
PCJP03 Egg
Mystry Mew (2nd to 5th Mew of a batch...)

And Nintendo DS Download play Events like:
PokePark Meowth
Hadou Titants

Edited by ajxpk
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Yeah, I meant ingame events, as those I cannot figure out what changes trash bytes. For instance, the attached copy of my Faraway Island Mew has a static PID of 7942ef72 which is needed to make it Flawless, but it also has a static SID of 31337 and TID of 60510, plus a Static OT gender of Female, the same moves, no nickname, a Lum Berry,  and all that. I would like to know if the trash bytes on the attached Mew from RoC's are valid. Suloku says they are, but I want to double check that. Just to inform those wondering, this Mew is a test Mew to see how faithful I can get it, as Suloku's Save that he hat had caught Mew on for me with the ID in the PKM did not get the Trainer Gender right, so I fixed that and added a Lum Berry ingame after harvesting one. I also wish to inform you that the Mew was caught by suloku on an emulator without the vblank patch, and that only the OT gender was edited on THIS particular 3gpkm to make its OT Female to match the Real Pokepark Mew event. In game, I enabled the clock and obtained one lum berry for Mew. I just need to know if the one OT gender bit change affects any trash bytes. This is only for research, but I do not know if I accidentally submitted this one to RoC. If I did, and trash bytes check out, consider this a happy accident turned bugfix from suloku's original Mew. It is possible that glitzer or pomeg bugs could do this without A-Save (which I used on a duplicated copy of suloku's mew Save file that he gave me. He also said when he released it that he would provide offsets for editing the trainer info so anyone could customize the mew without re-waiting 34.25 days)

151 - 60510 - Mew - (Timid) - {S} {F} {St. GIGA} {Suloku}.3gpkm

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Can someone answer

4 hours ago, St. GIGA said:

Yeah, I meant ingame events, as those I cannot figure out what changes trash bytes. For instance, the attached copy of my Faraway Island Mew has a static PID of 7942ef72 which is needed to make it Flawless, but it also has a static SID of 31337 and TID of 60510, plus a Static OT gender of Female, the same moves, no nickname, a Lum Berry,  and all that. I would like to know if the trash bytes on the attached Mew from RoC's are valid. Suloku says they are, but I want to double check that. Just to inform those wondering, this Mew is a test Mew to see how faithful I can get it, as Suloku's Save that he hat had caught Mew on for me with the ID in the PKM did not get the Trainer Gender right, so I fixed that and added a Lum Berry ingame after harvesting one. I also wish to inform you that the Mew was caught by suloku on an emulator without the vblank patch, and that only the OT gender was edited on THIS particular 3gpkm to make its OT Female to match the Real Pokepark Mew event. In game, I enabled the clock and obtained one lum berry for Mew. I just need to know if the one OT gender bit change affects any trash bytes. This is only for research, but I do not know if I accidentally submitted this one to RoC. If I did, and trash bytes check out, consider this a happy accident turned bugfix from suloku's original Mew. It is possible that glitzer or pomeg bugs could do this without A-Save (which I used on a duplicated copy of suloku's mew Save file that he gave me. He also said when he released it that he would provide offsets for editing the trainer info so anyone could customize the mew without re-waiting 34.25 days)

151 - 60510 - Mew - (Timid) - {S} {F} {St. GIGA} {Suloku}.3gpkm

Could someone answer this?

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15 hours ago, ajxpk said:


@suloku Yeah this legal/legit part is always confusing.
Especially what's legitimate sometimes isn't clear and needs to be defined specifically...
For my example I already stretched the definition by saying a perfectly replicated algorithm would be enough.
And I know many people would disagree with that... because strictly viewed, only what comes from Nintendo/GF is legit.
But technically viewed I think it would say it's close to be legit. Especially if it comes from a multiboot rom which is even more close.
So I really think that with a multiboot rom, you would come as close as you can get and that's why it's so interesting, right?

Btw. like I already said the Trash Bytes wouldn't even be the issue if we are just talking about legality.
With the exception of Events with variating/dynamic Trash Bytes...
This includes...

Negaiboshi Jirachi
PCJP03 Egg
Mystry Mew (2nd to 5th Mew of a batch...)

And Nintendo DS Download play Events like:
PokePark Meowth
Hadou Titants

That's what I meant by "as legit as possible" earlier. A perfectly replicated algorithm + multiboot = events that are indeed as legit as they can possibly be when ignoring factors like trash bytes and the fact that the multiboot ROM isn't from an official distro cart or disc. If anything, it'd be a great way to replace the likes of the US 10 ANNIV events, Festa/ROCKS Metang (provided they used the 10 ANNIV/10 ANIV algorithm as early as 2005), SPACE C Deoxys (which I bet was from a distro cart considering it was distributed for almost three months) and the US 10 ANIV events.

As for events with variable trash bytes, I wouldn't even bother adding them to a homebrew distro ROM.

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16 hours ago, St. GIGA said:

Can someone answer

Could someone answer this?

Like I said, I have 0 idea about trash bytes of ingame generated pokemon. So I don't know how I can help you.
Besides it's quite off-topic because this thread is about pokemon that were generated using a multiboot rom. 

Edited by ajxpk
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16 hours ago, St. GIGA said:

Can someone answer

Could someone answer this?

They are just what was in that memory region before it was used to store (then copy to the pokemon) the nickname. It will most likely never be the same, and more given emerald has DMA. In any case there's almost no chance that any in-game generated pokémon will have trash bytes of any event distribution, and if one has, it's mere (extreme) coincidence.

Trash bytes for ingame pokemon should be random, and if you are worried about them, you are better off clearing them via colosseum/xd. Besides being obtaines in emulator and rng manipulation, the mew should be totally legitimate either way.

I don't get why you want it to look like an event pokemon though, the generation algorythm might have been different from the one used in-game, so any pid/dv combos for in-game mew wouldn't (most likely) apply.

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You misunderstand, I never wanted it to look like an event, as it is already close enough, and the bytes will not matter. I only wanted to know if trashbytes are random, and not determined by other data in a 3gpkm as it is created. If anything making it look like the PokePakku Mew would flag hack checkers as suspicious, as that Mew is to our knowledge shiny locked. I just wished to know if something like the OT gender bit would set it. You gave me the answer that I needed, and I have no intention of erasing the bytes after hearing that it is just junk RTC/DMA/RNG data in areas where memory was conserved. The OT gender does not matter when the ID number or SID is rng'd, so why should random trash bytes be any different ingame? Now I can safely say that the Mew is legitimately 99.99% accurate to both events, with the Trash Bytes and Secret ID of 31337 being the only things besides shinyness distinguishing the mew from an original PokePakku Mew. So suloku, I was not trying to give an ingame pokemon restricted event trash bytes. I just wanted to know if the OT gender would have affected the outcome. As we now know, it will not. Thank you, and sorry for leaving you hanging. Hopefully this relieves you that I was not trying to invalidate an event. Sorry about being off-topic ajxpk. We all do not need to worry about this anymore due to me getting the news I needed, me not wanting to mod the trashbytes to copy the event, as it could never happen due to lack of available 3gpkms of the event to copy and your news and my guess about how the trashbytes are not affected by OTG and Held Items, and me being satisfied at this outcome, so I won't bring it up again. BTW suloku, I did use your offset to make the Trainer Gender accurate to the event, but NOTHING else, except for legitimately giving Mew a new Lum Berry and exporting it as an 80byte boxed GBA 3gpkm file using A-Save and VBA-M-RR.

 

Thank you, and sorry for the inconvenience. Please understand my curiosity.

St. GIGA

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Ok, I did not understand the purpose of your questions. OT gender shouldn't matter for the in-game trash bytes. We could technically locate (via memory dumps) where the in-game trash bytes come from, then see what the memory address they come from is used for previous to the name generation and if it falls under a DMA address, but given that I recall in-game catches having apparently random trash the bytes probly depend on what you have done in-game prior to the catch, which shouldn't be much of a concern.
In any case, the gender shouldn't affect them (or more like I personally can't think of a reason why it should).

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@St. GIGA What does the faraway island mew you RNG'd have to do with pokepark mew?  PokePark Mew used the same generation method as other standard 3rd gen events via distribution ROM.  The trash bytes from distribution ROMs are COMPLETELY different from in-game.

@ajxpk I looked over the 10 ANNIV (various languages) that were from the distribution ROM, and the trash bytes are varied for OTN, but not for PKM Name.

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Just now, ajxpk said:

@Sabresite OT Names have Trash Bytes too? That's actually new to me. Interesting...
I think in this case we should document those as well.

Actually I made a mistake, I was thinking of spanish 10 aniv, but I am incorrect.  The one that COULD would be ROCKS.
But generally speaking, if an OT is less than 7 (6 if there is a terminator?) then there will 100% be trash bytes.

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Just talked with @Sabresite about the Nintendo DS Download Play Events like Hadou titans and PokePark Meowth.

Because it's hard to tell which files are out there are really legit.
And I think I have already collected all the Hadou titans which are out there, so we're running out of material to research on...

There are actually 2 sets of 3rd Gen Hadou titan files. One of them is a bit more private and incomplete (Regirock is missing) and the other one are the common files you can find at Neoseeker ect. 
It appears that one of these two Sets is hacked. The Set from my collection has 2 different OT Genders, while it seems that the other Set is always Male.
Considering my Hadou titans are legit, according to Sabresite none of the known OTG methods fits. (I also just confirmed it today.)
To nail it down and to see the bigger pictures much more Hadou titans would be needed... and that's impossible since I have collected all the files.
So yeah, things are looking bad!  Also the common Set has more static trash bytes, while the Hadou titans I have, having completely different tbs.
IMO that's a strong indicator for one of the Sets being hacked. I gave Sabresite my files without letting him know what I think first and I he came to the same conclusion which says a lot.

When it comes to PokePark Meowth, I must say that I have only 2 of them...
And I'm not planning to trade for those since they're not on my priority list.
That's why I would like to announce that any contribution in terms of PokePark Meowths would be much appreciated!

Edit:
Nevermind.

Edited by ajxpk
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4 minutes ago, ajxpk said:

Just talked with @Sabresite about the Nintendo DS Download Play Events like Hadou titans and PokePark Meowth.

Because it's hard to tell which files are out there are really legit.
And I think I have already collected all the Hadou titans which are out there, so we're running out of material to research on...

There are actually 2 sets of 3rd Gen Hadou titan files. One of them is a bit more private and incomplete (Regirock is missing) and the other one are the common files you can find at Neoseeker ect. 
It appears that one of these two Sets is hacked. The Set from my collection has 2 different OT Genders, while it seems that the other Set is always Male.
Considering my Hadou titans are legit, none of the known OTG methods fits.
To nail it down and to see the bigger pictures much more Hadou titans would be needed... and that's impossible since I have collected all the files out there.
So yeah, things are looking bad!  Also the common Set has more static trash bytes, while the Hadou titans I have, having completely different tbs.
IMO that's a strong indicator for one of the Sets being hacked. I gave Sabresite my files without letting him know what I think first and I he came to the same conclusion which says a lot.

When it comes to PokePark Meowth, I must say that I have only 2 of them...
And I'm not planning to trade for those since they're not on my priority list.
That's why I would like to announce that any contribution in terms of PokePark Meowths would be much appreciated!

PokePark Meowth was distributed in the same fashion.

Keep in mind that we prefer 3rd gen pokemon files (GPK/GBN/3GPKM) because if the pokemon is already palparked, then there are no trash bytes to verify.

Also if the 2 PokePark Meowth that @ajxpk has are legit, then they do not have the same trash bytes as the titans.

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LOL, forget about my request. I think it's unlikely that someone pops up.
I just realized there aren't more PokePark Meowths in the trading circle. 
The Jolly one is the only one that made it into the scene. Awful! 
But who knows... sometimes miracles happen, so I will leave it like that.


Btw. we also looking for these two PokePark Taiwan Events:
Celebi 60623 Relaxed Capable of Taking Hits
Mew 60510 Adamant Alert to Sounds 

They're high on my list, so I will even trade for those if necessary.

Edited by ajxpk
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  • 3 weeks later...

As you know we made a lot of progress recently when it comes to this Research. 
I was also able to collect more files through trades and contributions.
In the meanwhile I was even able to collect rare Events like Party of the Decade and the PokePark Taiwan Legendaries. 
Also we almost solved all the existing Algorithms, with the newest being Negaiboshi Jirachi and the Pokemon Center 5th Anniversary Eggs.
I want to thank at this point everyone who was helping us with the Research and those who contributed.

Just FYI here is what's still missing and what we're still looking for...
 

Japanese Events:
Stamp
Sapporo Pikachu
More DS Download Play Events (Especially Hadou Regirock...)

Taiwanese Events:
PokePark Jirachi

American Events:
Rocks Metang
PCNYs
Jeremy



IMPORTANT: If possible we need these Events still in Gen 3.
Only this way we can confirm what's legit/legal and transferring via Pal Park removes very important data which we need.

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On 4/3/2017 at 1:48 AM, ajxpk said:

Btw. we also looking for these two PokePark Taiwan Events:
Celebi 60623 Relaxed Capable of Taking Hits
Mew 60510 Adamant Alert to Sounds 

Why this two specifically?

Only ever seen the two common STAMP pokes in Neoseeker, not even sure if those are the real deal. I think i got them in G3 though..

 

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Just now, Shadowdarkrai1 said:

Why this two specifically?

Only ever seen the two common STAMP pokes in Neoseeker, not even sure if those are the real deal. I think i got them in G3 though..

 

I have them now.
I needed those two to determine what's legit in terms of PokePark legendaries and to confirm their Trash Bytes. :)
Wow, do I get you right, you really have Stamp Pokemon in Gen 3? If you want I can take a look and see if there is something suspicious or if they're ok.

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