Ho-oh for OU?

[Gin]

Hey all, I noticed this post on TU, and both Wraith and I couldn't help but think... What the HELL?

http://teamuber.net/forum/showpost.php?p=83962&postcount=10

I was testing three of my teams against sb12 and his CB Adamant natured Ho-oh. Surprisingly my bulky CB scizor survived a Sacred Fire, a major jaw opener. and this was not even in the rain. Vaporeon is a reasonable counter I guess as I believed it may have 2HKOed Ho-oh while Vaporeon took an Earthquake. Scarf Jirachi got pulverized by Earthquake and my SleepTalk Rotom-W gets 2HKOed by Sacred Fire.

With my offensive team, when we're testing Aerodactyl against Ho-oh, Stone Edge missed twice and died to Sacred Fire. We had to restart and that time Stone Edge connected obviously OHKOing Ho-oh. Then we tried my Scarf Modest Starmie. Missed Hydro Pump and then both Hydro Pump and Sacred Fire missed simultaneously. . Hydro Pump finally connecting, which I think it OHKOed. Can't remember exactly. Then we tried Curselax. It took a Sacred Fire and only lost 33%. DD Salamence was next. Sacred Fire 2hkos Mence where a non-boosted Outrage 2hkos as well. Sleep Talk Machamp survived a Sacred Fire with less than 10% damage left.

Now with my RD team, Sacred Fire OHKOed CB Scizor in the rain. Bronzong in the rain gets 2hkoed. Kingdra took an Earthquake, but both Kabutops and Kingdra can easily Sacred Fire in the rain. Non-Scarfed Jirachi gets 2HKoed in the rain. RD teams with Kingdra/Kabutops may become popular if Ho-oh ever becomes OU.

So what do you guys think? Is Ho-oh okay in OU?

[sprite]250[/sprite] [shinysprite]250[/shinysprite]

Edited July 22, 2009 by wraith89

[wraith89]

"CB Adamant natured Ho-oh. Surprisingly my bulky CB scizor survived a Sacred Fire"

Er... really? Anyways, from all that "testing" phase, that team was obviously anti-Ho-oh material. Even if it is 4x weak to Stealth Rocks, that base 154 Special Defense is still a bit too bulky on the special side, don't you think? Let's see, we have a 50% chance of burning from Sacred Fire with STAB (coming off from a 130 Attack mind you)... which helps with his physical defense... and Roost/Recover increases its survivability.

idk... I don't think it belongs in OU.

[Toffeuy]

I'm pretty sure it's impossible for Scizor to survive a Sacred Fire. Even my Infernape's Flame wheel could 1HKO my friend's Scizor. And my Infernape is Mixed Attacker so it's Attack only has 188 EV's and a Lonely Nature.

And Ho-oh, dun think it will be OU, most OU's can't beat it unless it's like an Adamant 252 Atk 252 Spe Aerodactyl with a Stone Edge.

[wraith89]

I'm pretty sure it's impossible for Scizor to survive a Sacred Fire. Even my Infernape's Flame wheel could 1HKO my friend's Scizor. And my Infernape is Mixed Attacker so it's Attack only has 188 EV's and a Lonely Nature.

And Ho-oh, dun think it will be OU, most OU's can't beat it unless it's like an Adamant 252 Atk 252 Spe Aerodactyl with a Stone Edge.

We just tested it. Even with 252 HP/252 Def Impish nature... that Scizor won't survive a Sacred Fire... but how about with Occa Berry? Hmm...

... but that's WAY too overspecialized and isn't worth doing.

[Toffeuy]

Try to see if a 252 Def/252 HP Bold Nature Scizor would survive a 0 Atk Modest Nature Choice Band Ho-oh's Sacred Fire... if it only does like Half Damage (which it probably wouldn't) that would solve the case.

[wraith89]

Try to see if a 252 Def/252 HP Bold Nature Scizor would survive a 0 Atk Modest Nature Choice Band Ho-oh's Sacred Fire... if it only does like Half Damage (which it probably wouldn't) that would solve the case.

Impish is a + def nature too... and it lowers SpA which Scior doesn't care for...

And no one uses 0 Atk Modest if they're planning on using Sacred Fire (let alone Choice Banded). Also, that's overspecialized... VERY overspecialized. bob and I ran a test... Occa Berry 252 HP/252 Def Impish survives... but with only 2%... or sometimes they die from burn... so it doesn't matter.

[Gin]

Hey all, Wraith and I did some testing. Here are the numbers:

Ho-oh: Max atk w/ Adamant and LO

Scizor: Max Def/HP w/ impish and CB

253, 235, 235, 264, 232 256 (% that SF did)

(It survives this one! Yet, the attack on this is 296, speed is 167)

In comparison:

(CB'd Adamant 252 atk bidoof has 310 attack)

(CB'd adamant 252 atk Blissey has 195 atk)

(CB'd Adamant 252 atk Deoxys-A has 756 attack)

Ho-oh: Max attack w/ Adamant, Leftovers

Scizor: Max Def/Hp w/ impish and Occa berry

89% (Burn, finished by Burn) 84%(2HKO) 85%(Burn 2HKO)

85% (Burn, 2HKO) 90%(Burn, finished by burn) 156%(crit)

(This one is the one the OP was talking about)

Ho-oh: Max attack w/Adamant, LO

Scizor: (Standard CB bulk Set) max hp/attack w/ Adamant, CB

366%, 355%, 362%, 355%, 366%, 340%

[CronoStorm]

What the... what the HELL? I find that really hard to believe. Except... your statistics. Eesh. I don't even know anymore. :grog:

[Gin]

What the... what the HELL? I find that really hard to believe. Except... your statistics. Eesh. I don't even know anymore. :grog:

What do you find hard to believe? All of the statistics were compiled by Wraith89 and I on Shoddybattle.

[randomspot555]

Of course, almost no one runs Impish on Scizor. It's got decent enough defensive stats + Iron Defense and Roost. But many other Pokemon are much more suited for taking hits/team support. Scizor is built to be offensive.

I think Rapid Spinners are common enough in OU (with many OU major threats losing 25% such as Zapdos, Gyarados, Salamence, Dragonite along with the many generally frail Pokemon who don't like entrance hazards).

You wouldn't have to change a team too much to put Ho-Oh in it. You would have to to counter it.

And it's definately bulky enough that it could probably force switches often, and either Roost or Sub on the switch.

And with a 50% burn rate, it's a risk to switch in even fire resists. Swampert and Tyranitar won't enjoy the cut in attack, Starmie will switch out due to Natural Cure, and the one who could absorb it, Heatran, can't do anything back unless it carried the rarely used (in OU anyway) HP Rock.

I saw this thread on the same subject over at Smogon's forums. It deserves a look, I guess, but Ho-Oh is so ridiculously powerful. It would easily shake up the metagame.

[CronoStorm]

No no, I believe you, I just don't believe it. See? I told you I didn't even know anymore. :kikkoman:

[Dimi]

Ho-oh for OU? Seriously? 130 Atk, 154 SpD, Roost, Recover and lets not forget its 110 SpA.

These are my damage calcs.

Ho-oH Sacred Fire vs 252 Hp/Def Scizor

With Choice Band:

591 Atk vs 328 Def & 344 HP (100 Base Power): 780 - 916 (226.74% - 266.28%)

With Life Orb:

394 Atk vs 328 Def & 344 HP (100 Base Power): 672 - 792 (195.35% - 230.23%)

No way Scizor could've had Occa because it said CB in the description.

[Gin]

We know it didn't have Occa, we just were trying to see if it would survive.

[wraith89]

It didn't have Occa, but the point was to show you that if Scizor would survive a Sacred Fire it needs to run a positive defense set with max HP and Def with Occa, which no Scizor runs. It is VERY overspecialized as I put it before...

Sure ubers has rain... but that's still a 2HKO and 50% chance to burn (47.5% if you factor in Sacred Fire's 95% accuracy). The OP said this was without rain btw... so his claims may have been spurious... there's no way it'll survive an Adamant Ho-oh's Sacred Fire, let alone CB'd (mine wasn't even CB'd). And Ho-oh resists most if not all of Scizor's moves, so it won't really matter.

At any rate, Ho-oh is still too strong for OU, even with Stealth Rocks and all. Very bulky, powerful on both sides of the spectrum, and has an instant recovery move... this thing shouldn't be in OU. Tyranitar switch-ins don't like being burned either... nothing likes to risk being burned. Sure there's Guts Heracross, but that thing's weak to Fire so... that's not going to help. There's Fire pokes who are immune to burn... but Infernape is frail (it can Stone Edge but you might accidentally switch in to an EQ) and Heatran, who is immune to Sacred Fire, still can't do anything back while Ho-oh can easily Earthquake it. Either way, it's too powerful for OU, and if there was a OU team with Ho-oh, I'm sure it'll have spinners.

Edited July 23, 2009 by wraith89

[CronoStorm]

Which was my point in disbelieving that I believed I was disbelieving what I should have believed to begin with. :confused:

My head said it was impossible, but unless I read your statistics wrong it happened. Still, Ho-oh won't be joining the OU, of that I'm sure. It would completely break the meta-game.

Not that it isn't broken already. :creep:

[Syberia]

Do you really want battles to be even more dependent on Stealth Rock than they are now? If Ho-oh gets into OU, that's pretty much forcing every team to run Stealth Rock (presumably as a lead, so as not to give Ho-oh any openings, and presumably on a Scarfed pokemon, as to avoid Aerodactyl's Taunt) as well as a Ghost-type to make sure rocks stay down, and on top of that you've still got to actually find a way to switch into and counter Ho-oh without dying with only 4 pokemon left.

And just for the record, Ho-oh resists pretty much everything Scizor can throw at it. So whether it survives or not is irrelevant, as it can't actually hurt it.

[Goldgross]

Do you really want battles to be even more dependent on Stealth Rock than they are now? If Ho-oh gets into OU, that's pretty much forcing every team to run Stealth Rock (presumably as a lead, so as not to give Ho-oh any openings, and presumably on a Scarfed pokemon, as to avoid Aerodactyl's Taunt) as well as a Ghost-type to make sure rocks stay down, and on top of that you've still got to actually find a way to switch into and counter Ho-oh without dying with only 4 pokemon left.

And just for the record, Ho-oh resists pretty much everything Scizor can throw at it. So whether it survives or not is irrelevant, as it can't actually hurt it.

Very well said. That would overcentralize the entire Meta-game even more than it is now =/. No water type could really hurt it on the special side due to its epic 154 sp.def and the Aerodactyl switch in could be predicted and Sacred fired on the spot. That would cripple anything that resists it but counters it....mainly Gyarados, Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, Snorlax etc. Snorlax isnt bulky enough to take hits that strong from Ho-oh. The rest hate burns.

Furthermore Metagross and Scizor make great partners as they would remove the rock types and Snorlax from Ho-ohs way. Those two Steels are already used a lot in OU.

This would also necessitate the use of a Cleric on every team just to heal those burns. The best Clerics being Blissey and Celebi :eek: are gonna get massacred by this beast.

The need of a rapid spinner is, as everyone has put, quite obvious and easy. There were 4 great spinners in OU before Donphan went to UU but the remaining ones can find niches on any team, really.

The best counter to Ho-oh would actually be Suicune. With its nice defenses and resisting type it could take most hits from Ho-oh and possibly stall it out of Sacred Fire pp..........but obviously thats only one counter and most would just switch out =/. Calm Mind Cune could start to CM on Ho-oh but it has Punishment to deal with those kinds and will do massive damage after say 4 CMs. On top of that Suicune doesnt have nearly as great a power as Vaporeon (who btw has bad defense) to hit Ho-oh hard enough to put it in the 2hko range. Ho-oh will just roost OR recover those hits and stall CUNE OUT.:eek:

Of course the physical walls get maimed by this legend and other than Hippowdon nothing could survive its onslaught. Burn would cripple Hippo to an extent that even with Stone edge it could do only 50%, while Ho-oh could hammer it on the special side and finish it off.

The ONLY other phys wall that comes to my mind is Regirock -___-........... which would be on every team.......Yes, it takes SFs and EQs well, but the burn would leave it crippled and it will have to resort to Rest......which leaves it open to the Steel monsters that i named earlier. Again this would centralize the meta-game around 4 maybe 5 pokemon.

Simply put Ho-oh is an insane pokemon already and the only reason it doesnt see much usage in the Uber tier is cause, that tier consists of a lot more Special attacking heavy hitters than physical, with fire being a resisted type by the Dragons and Kyogre running around everywhere. BUT, this doesnt change the fact that Ho-oh can cripple Rayquazas, Groudon by using its sunlight against it and Dialga.

LOL maybe an Azumarril could Aqua Jet a Ho-oh at 50~60% HP, but seriously, who would think of carrying that frail pokemon?

Honestly, this Topic of shifting tiers shouldnt have even been for Ho-oh. Start a topic for something thats possible to contain in OU, ya get mah drift?:creep:

Im talkin bout freakin Garchomp >_> Its uber ya but OU can still contain it with Latias being there (wonder why that happened though:confused:).

[Greencat]

It's a lethal monster. It can kill water counters with Thunder and Swamperts and the likes with Giga Drain or Energy Ball. :\

[wraith89]

Azumarill isn't exactly THAT frail Gold, but no one EVs it to be defensive, so you're right in some way.

I'll agree with everyone here... Ho-oh belongs in Ubers and should stay uber. While that W4 to Rock looks bad on paper, you'd have to take into account what Ho-oh CAN actually do before dismissing it as OU.

Ho-oh is capable of phazing if I remember correctly so Suicune can be thwarted, not to mention Ho-oh has Punishment to deal with CM types. Also, Ho-oh can be geared to do many things, such as Pressure stalling, physical sweeper, CM sweeper... and those stats aren't anything to frown about. Sure, with the overusage of Kyogre in Ubers, people just don't use Ho-oh as much, but that doesn't mean Ho-oh should be brought down to OU. It'll mess up standard so badly with its high burn rate and will recover off damage as it pleases.

And I don't think I've ever seen Ho-oh carry a Grass move... but that's most likely because it's seen on the Uber metagame... but yes, let's take that into consideration. From a base 110 SpA, it can surely wreak havoc against stuff like Swampert or Rhyperior...

[Gin]

Hey all, I met up with Airhorton, the OP.

bobtheedibleone: Hey, aren't you the guy who said his Scizor survived a Sacred Fire?

airhorton: yes

bobtheedibleone: What was its set? May I ask?

airhorton: the Scizor set was Choice Banded, with 248 Hp evs, 252 Atk and 8 spe

bobtheedibleone: What was its nature?

airhorton: Adamant, maybe I was hit by EQ, now I'm not sure.

(Sacred Fire with this set is: 366%, 355%, 362%, 355%, 366%, 340%)

Earthquake with this set is: 53%/60%(2HKO)

53%/60%(2HKO)

55%/57%(2HKO)

61%/53%(2HKO)

55%/57%(2HKO)

56%/54%(2HKO)

If he was hit by EQ, then he would have survived. However, I doubt it, as he said that the rain was not on, and EQ's power is not affected by the rain.

[wraith89]

Thanks for the testing, but as Syberia pointed out earlier whether Scizor survives or not is irrelevant because Scizor can't do anything to Ho-oh anyways

[Goldgross]

Even Swampy cant really do anything to it =/. Once burned, physical hits wont do much and swampy having low special atk and Ho-oh having that godly special def, even Torrent boosted Hydro Pumps wouldnt muster up too much. It wouldnt even need Energy Ball to finish the job. Empoleon might handle it but again Ho-oh can phaze or just EQ that Penguin to death.

[Arandomproduction1]

Smogon would never do this, its like saying Arceus is unbanned in ubers. Molters is basically and inferior Ho-Oh as it is. Anyways Scizor needs MAX SpD and Occa Berry to survive a Sacred fire...

Edited July 28, 2009 by Arandomproduction1

[Substitute]

Do you really want battles to be even more dependent on Stealth Rock than they are now? If Ho-oh gets into OU, that's pretty much forcing every team to run Stealth Rock (presumably as a lead, so as not to give Ho-oh any openings, and presumably on a Scarfed pokemon, as to avoid Aerodactyl's Taunt) as well as a Ghost-type to make sure rocks stay down, and on top of that you've still got to actually find a way to switch into and counter Ho-oh without dying with only 4 pokemon left.

And just for the record, Ho-oh resists pretty much everything Scizor can throw at it. So whether it survives or not is irrelevant, as it can't actually hurt it.

This is the reason why Ho-oh should remain in Ubers...the game already is overcentralized with the dragons and the steels pokes...Ho-oh would be a bit too much.

[ocwil]

ahh nice ho-oh is my favorite so now it's even strong even better

...(now some practice and i'll be crashing the meta game)...

nah... just jokking