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Sandstorm team #124553: The annoyance of Destati


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Upon Random's advice, this team is now going to be a Sandstorm team.

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Aerodactyl (M) @ Focus Sash

Ability: Pressure

EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd

Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)

- Stealth Rock

- Taunt

- Earthquake

- Rock Slide

---

Weaknesses: Rock, Steel, Water, Electric, Ice

Resists: Normal, Flying, Poison, Bug, Fire

Immune: Ground

Aero here is my lead in. Taunt can stop the opponents Pokemon from setting up, I try to get Stealth Rocks out as soon as possible. Focus Sash ensures it survives to do this. Earthquake is to counter Infernape and other ground weak lead-ins, and rock slide is another option. I've chosen Rock Slide over Stone Edge due to it's greater accuracy. Basically, get in, set up rocks, then suicide.

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Lucario (M) @ Life Orb

Ability: Inner Focus

EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk

Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)

- Aura Sphere

- Shadow Ball

- Hidden Power [ice]

- Agility

Weaknesses: Fighting, Ground, Fire

Resists: Normal, Rock, Bug, Ghost, Steel, Grass, Ice, Dragon, Dark

Immune: Poison

Considering Tyranitar is a physical attacker, I'm making Lucario a special attacker in case of any physical walls. HP Ice is for dragons, which my team lacks coverage of, and the rest is obvious.

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Tyranitar (M) @ Leftovers

Ability: Sand Stream

EVs: 74 HP/252 Atk/8 Def/176 SDef

Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)

- Crunch

- Curse

- Substitute

- Fire Punch

---

Weaknesses: Fighting (x4!), Ground, Bug, Steel, Grass, Water

Resists: Normal, Flying, Poison, Ghost, Fire, Dark

Immune: Psychic

Switch in on something that's scared of him, use sub, and then curse my way to good attack/defense. Fire punch is for additional team coverage, and crunch is a basic STAB.

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Jirachi @ Leftovers

Ability: Serene Grace

EVs: 240 HP/160 Def/34 Spd/76 SDef

Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)

- Wish

- U-turn

- Body Slam

- Ice Punch

---

Weaknesses: Ground, Fire

Resists: Normal, Flying, Rock, Steel, Grass, Psychic, Ice, Dragon

Immune: Poison

Jirachi is support with wish, scout with U-turn, and status inflicter with Body Slam. He's actually gotten me a few kills with body slam. Ice Punch is for coverage against dragons, or a last resort against ghosts who switch in.

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Gliscor (M) @ Leftovers

Ability: Sand Veil

EVs: 252 HP/40 Atk/216 Spd

Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)

- Swords Dance

- Roost

- Earthquake

- Stone Edge

Weaknesses: Water, Ice (x4!)

Resists: Fighting, Poison, Bug

Immune: Ground, Electric

Jolly nature + speed EV's allow it to outspeed Lucario's and smack them with Earthquake. Swords Dance is to boost attack, and with stealth rock, Stone Edge can then OHKO all Gyaradoes, Salamence and Dragonites.

I went with Sand Evasion over Hyper Cutter because the 20% evasion was too good to pass up. I also went with leftovers over a yache berry, since proper prediction can nullify my ice weakness with roost.

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---

King Dedede (M) @ Petaya Berry

Ability: Torrent

EVs: 14 HP/232 Spd/252 SAtk/12 SDef

Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)

- Agility

- Substitute

- Surf

- Ice Beam

---

Weaknesses: Fighting, Ground, Electric

Resists: Normal, Flying, Rock, Bug, Ghost, Steel, Water, Psychic, Ice, Dragon, Dark (Niiiiice)

Immune: Poison

Empoleon is the special sweeper. Use agility, follow with sub until the berry kicks in, and then sweep. Surf is for the STAB, Ice Beam is to handle dragons/flyers.

Well, any comments or suggestions? This is my first team, and I would like any pointers since I am new to competitive battling.

Edited by Aqueel
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Before I rate, I'm going to be a mod: Please edit into your post strategy, both for each Pokemon and as a whole team. Read SS guide on how to make a RMT to do some other stuff that, while not necessary to comply with the rules, is highly recommended.

If you're going to use Tyranitar/Hippowdon/Abomoasnow, you either need a sand storm/hail team, or someone to change the weather. The other option is your forced to keep T-tar until it's your very last, which isn't good for a Pokemon who relies on set up.

Aero is fine.

The EVs on Jolteon are screwed up. A bunch in HP and special defense, and +max speed, but none in special attack, on a specs set?

HP EVs should really only be used if Jolteon is running a Sub-pass set. Otherwise, the standard spread is fine.

Jolteon w/ Specs

Timid

Volt Absorb

252 sp atk/252 speed/6 HP

- Thunderbolt

- Hidden Power Ice/Fire/Fight/Ground/Grass

- Shadow Ball

- Baton Pass/Toxic/Signal Beam/Thunder Wave/Hyper Beam

Thunderbolt for STAB. HP is whatever your team calls for, but HP Ice gives you the best coverage. The others cover Scizor, Tyranitar, Heatran, and Swampert respectively. Shadow Ball because there's not much else left.

The fourth slot can be used to either be strategic, or gimmicky, because Jolteon's move pool sucks.

Specs/Scarf Baton Pass is known as a "dry" Baton Pass. Jolteon is pretty fast, and this allows it to escape Pursuit users, or you get in a counter to whatever attack is coming.

Toxic/Thunder Wave is for one last hit before Jolteon goes down, but at least you gave your opponent some status to worry about.

If you are...I don't know, Ludicolo weak, Signal Beam is okay. Hyper Beam is probably the worst bet, but similar to Toxic/T-Wave, use it before you die and only before you die.

Tyranitar needs to go, or you need a new team. But on the set, I never use 252/252/6 on T-tar, because then it isn't utilizing it's bulk.

Vaporeon's set seems good, but your opponent will quickly realize the strategy and do one of three things. Taunt, set up itself, or use Gyarados who can do both.

But Vaporeon's EV spread is okay. It just needs to narrow down it's team support role, which is Wish Passing, with this move pool.

-Surf

-Wish

-Protect

- Ice Beam/HP Electric/Toxic/Yawn

If you want to give Wish to Vaporeon, Protect. If to someone else, switch. The 4th slot is simply what you want to hit. Ice Beam for dragons, HP Electric for Gyarados. Toxic and Yawn can help against other bulky waters, or force a switch.

Latias isn't something I'm used, but I think the set is a bit all over the place. With one attack, it's just a huge sign saying SCIZOR PLEASE COME IN AND KNOCK ME AROUND. Less so for Metagross and other steels, and Pokes with naturally high special defense (Tyranitar, Blissey). I just can't see it doing much besides setting up Reflect, then switching out.

EDIT: Besides Jolteon and Jirachi for their respective electric/poison immunities, you have no way of reliably absorbing status. Paralysis can screw up any DD or Calm Mind user, Will O Wisp with your physical attackers, etc... Tyranitar and Latias would operate well with a Lum Berry.

I don't see common weaknesses being too much of a problem, but I only thought about it for like 5 seconds.

And if you do want to make a sand storm team, you already have a half-way decent one going. Vaporeon can stay, you just need to get rid of Latias and Jolteon.

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Alright, these are my proposed changes then.

Lucario (M) @ Choice Specs

Ability: Inner Focus

EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk

Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)

- Aura Sphere

- Shadow Ball

- Hidden Power [ice]

- Vacuum Wave

Lucario will replace Jolteon. Considering Tyranitar is a physical attacker, I'm making Lucario a special attacker in case of any physical walls. HP Ice is for dragons, which my team lacks coverage of, and the rest is obvious.

Vaporeon (F) @ Leftovers

Ability: Water Absorb

EVs: 128 HP/252 Def/128 Spd

Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)

- Wish

- Surf

- Protect

- Toxic

I've gone and used your template for Vaporeon. Provides wish support, protect will give a free turn of leftovers, ensure the wish heals my vaporeon if needed, and scout the enemy. Toxic is for additional status dmg along with sandstorm and stealth rocks.

Clefable (F) @ Toxic Orb

Ability: Magic Guard

EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spd

Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)

- Protect

- Facade

- Meteor Mash

- Softboiled

Clefable is replacing Latias. I was originally worried about my team being mainly ground/steel/rock, and thus being weak to fighting or grass, but now I realize my Clefable is also weak to fighting -.- But I really don't know what to use for this last slot, any advice? (I was pondering Cacturne, but he's a UU)

Clefable is the status absorber. Protect will let Toxic Orb kick in, making him immune to sleep or thunder wave, and then allowing him to use powerful Facades. Softboiled is to heal as needed, and meteor mash allows it to dmg rock types.

Also, what EV's do you recommend for Tyranatir?

P.S. Those EV's on my Jolteon? That was Speed, not Special Defense =p

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First off, what is with this forum and Sandstorm teams? They're not bad but this is the fourth one I had to rate. Four out of like seven teams.

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Aerodactyl (M) @ Focus Sash

Ability: Pressure

EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd

Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)

- Stealth Rock

- Taunt

- Earthquake

- Rock Slide

---

Aero here is my lead in. Taunt can stop the opponents Pokemon from setting up, I try to get Stealth Rocks out as soon as possible. Focus Sash ensures it survives to do this. Earthquake is to counter Infernape and other ground weak lead-ins, and rock slide is another option. Basically, get in, set up rocks, then suicide.

Yes, standard. I would personally go for Stone Edge over Rock Slide though. Just remember that Aerodactyl is not failproof. Trick Leads are going to set up rocks and then switch out to an adequate counter.

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Lucario (M) @ Choice Specs

Ability: Inner Focus

EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk

Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)

- Aura Sphere

- Shadow Ball

- Hidden Power [ice]

- Vacuum Wave

Considering Tyranitar is a physical attacker, I'm making Lucario a special attacker in case of any physical walls. HP Ice is for dragons, which my team lacks coverage of, and the rest is obvious.

No. Special Lucario is not good. All dragons outspeed Lucario, negating the purpose of HP Ice. Use a regular swords dance spread and consider Jirachi as a special sweeper.

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Tyranitar (M) @ Leftovers

Ability: Sand Stream

EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd

Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)

- Dragon Dance

- Crunch

- Earthquake

- Aqua Tail

---

Tyranatar is my physical sweeper. Switch in on a Pokemon that's afraid of him, set up Dragon Dance, then go for the kill. Earthquake and Crunch are the mandatory STABS, and Aqua Tail is for additional coverage.

T-tar is not a sweeper. Not even one DD can give him sweeping capabilities. D-dance is mostly just there to outspeed walls and tanks.

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Jirachi @ Leftovers

Ability: Serene Grace

EVs: 240 HP/160 Def/34 Spd/76 SDef

Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)

- Wish

- U-turn

- Body Slam

- Ice Punch

---

Jirachi is support with wish, scout with U-turn, and status inflicter with Body Slam. He's actually gotten me a few kills with body slam. Ice Punch is for coverage against dragons, or a last resort against ghosts who switch in.

Due to the basis of your team, I would go with a Calm Mind set. Try the Superachi or Sub+CalmMind set.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/jirachi

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Vaporeon (F) @ Leftovers

Ability: Water Absorb

EVs: 128 HP/252 Def/128 Spd

Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)

- Wish

- Surf

- Protect

- Toxic

I've gone and used your template for Vaporeon. Provides wish support, protect will give a free turn of leftovers, ensure the wish heals my vaporeon if needed, and scout the enemy. Toxic is for additional status dmg along with sandstorm and stealth rocks.

I would go with the 188 HP / 252 Def / 68 Spe spread. The one you have is meant for substitute sets.

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Clefable (F) @ Toxic Orb

Ability: Magic Guard

EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spd

Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)

- Protect

- Facade

- Meteor Mash

- Softboiled

---

Clefable is the status absorber. Protect will let Toxic Orb kick in, making him immune to sleep or thunder wave, and then allowing him to use powerful Facades. Softboiled is to heal as needed, and meteor mash allows it to dmg rock types.

Him? I was actually going to bash this a bit but I C WUT U DID THAR. However, I do fear it allows Pokemon like Lucario, Scizor and other set-up Pokemon to, well, set up. Lucario has quad resistances to both the two moves

Summary, you have a big Salamence, Lucario and Flygon weakness. Even with Lucario's special set you would still be dragon-weak. I feel a Metagross or Empoleon might work on this team. Metagross replacing Clefable or Empoleon replacing Vaporeon. You could do both : /. Either way, the set you choose must contain ice moves.

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No. Special Lucario is not good. All dragons outspeed Lucario, negating the purpose of HP Ice. Use a regular swords dance spread and consider Jirachi as a special sweeper.

I don't have time for a full rate, but I have to disagree here. Simply regarding an entire specialization as useless is among the many reasons I hate you know what, but I digress...

HP Ice is going to pull a OHKO on a non-bulky Salamence/Flygon 100% of the time, and will do the same to Dragonite about half the time, all WITHOUT Specs. The specs are simply overkill in almost every Dragon matchup you have.

Destati exaggerates when she says "all dragons outspeed Lucario", as a +speed nature and 252 speed EVs on your Lucario WILL outspeed neutral speed natured Salamence/Flygon. Changing the Specs to a Scarf will give you priority when switching in on a Dragon Dance, and allow you to stop them cold, but only if they don't +speed nature.

Lucario's matchup with the dragons isn't the best in the world, but I'd say it's far from useless.

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There's an interesting EV that can survive Tyranitar's Earthquake with Empoleon.

Empoleon@Petaya Berry

Timid (or was it Modest?)

28 HP/12 Def/252 SpA/216 Speed

- Agility

- Surf

- Ice Beam

- Grass Knot

Only use that as a revenge killing set... DO NOT use it as a switch in.

And good job! That's the Vaporeon set I use... except I make her Bold to take in dragon attacks, not Calm, but whichever one you use is fine, but I prefer Bold.

BTW Ray uses that same Vappy O_O

Handle her with care... with good predictions she can be a very valuable asset to your team. If you ever want, try Ice Beam on Vaporeon if you want to take care of Dragons. She takes hits with relative ease and fires off from 256 Sp.Atk... which is REALLY strong (this is WITHOUT any investment in Sp Atk!) But Toxic is fine.

Yes, standard. I would personally go for Stone Edge over Rock Slide though. Just remember that Aerodactyl is not failproof. Trick Leads are going to set up rocks and then switch out to an adequate counter.

Rock Slide has that added chance of flinching, which Aerodactyl is very well capable of. Stone Edge tends to miss... which some people don't like. Yes, Rock Slide misses too, but less so than Stone Edge.

Aqueel, for Aero, beware of Swampert :P

Other than Vappy I'm not sure what else you have can switch into it.

Specs Luke is not seen enough... so people don't realize the threat he can actually pose. Not to mention stuff like to invest in Defense instead of Special Defense in this metagame. Plus, Lucario's stronger on the special side (slightly) than his physical. Lucario is unpredictable that one error can cause a team's downfall. SpecsLuke is fine... I don't see what's wrong with it. I suggested Ray and Okami a SpecsLuke too... and he's been serving them just fine. Just... know how to use it. :P

And Aqueel, Aqua Tail and Earthquake's coverage is redundant. Replace Earthquake with something like Stone Edge (it gets STAB). I have to give it to Destati here, but Tyranitar is a bit too slow for sweeping. I think we can work out a set that can take advantage of Dragon Dance AND give him enough defenses to live through stuff. Even with only 80 Attack EVs or something, Tyranitar is good enough to sweep. Try shifting some EVs into HP and defenses... and give enough Speed to just outspeed stuff like Infernape switch ins or something after one Dragon Dance (aside from those bizarre Choice Scarf'd ones).

Destati, if you're going to be in RMT forums, try to rate teams, not rape them. You point out their flaws well enough, but try to give constructive criticisms instead. You try building teams, not destroying them and say "ZOMG DATZ T3H ZAPD0$ W3@K!!"

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Salamence spreads tend to carry enough EVs to outspeed Lucario while Flygon naturally carries enough EVs.

And I'm not annoyed at all xD

They can't outspeed a +speed/maxEV one period without a +speed nature themselves. Most of the Flygon/Salamences I've encountered run +attack/+spatk, so I don't see outspeeding them as a 'never happens'. That's all.

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They can't outspeed a +speed/maxEV one period without a +speed nature themselves. Most of the Flygon/Salamences I've encountered run +attack/+spatk, so I don't see outspeeding them as a 'never happens'. That's all.

Except mine :D

I always run + Speed nature... I'm just so paranoid about being outsped. :P

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Here's the Tyranitar I've been having fun with lately.

Tyranitar w/ Leftovers/Lum Berry

Careful (SpD, -SpAtk)

Sand Stream

176 Sp Defense/8 Defense/252 Atk/74 HP

- Curse

- Subsitute

- Payback

- Filler

Tyranitar has amazing stats in everything except speed. Seriously, it's slower than CHARMANDER. So lets just drop that stat instead of hopelessly boosting it with dragon dance while the opponent switches in Scarf Cross.

Anyway, the EVs:

  • 176 SpD+SpD sand storm boost means Scarf Heatran, at best, gets a 3hko.
  • 8 EVs in Defense present standard Metagross from OHKO with Meteor Mash
  • The other EVs are adjustable to suit your playing style.

The moves:

Curse- Duh

Sub: Barrier so you can Curse-up. Also, prevents status.

Payback is recommended over Crunch due to the higher base power of going last.

Filler depending on what your team needs. Focus Punch can be viable behind a sub, or an elemental punch.

If you play CurseCroaTar too early, you might want to give it Lum Berry to absorb status once it does get hit with some. Otherwise, leftovers all the way.

And with 2 moves taking up space, with 2 attacks, don't leave yourself vulnerable. If Tyranitar is getting walled by...well, whatever it can't attack, switch out and live to Curse another day.

But seriously, T-Tar, almost any set, benefits with defensive EVs in any of those 3 stats. DD doesn't need 252 speed. You need to figure out what you want to outrun with no DD, with one, with two, then use THOSE EVS, and dump the rest into HP/Def/SpDef

EDIT: To the above conversation, at least with Flygon, most run Band/Scarf. As long as Lucario doesn't come in on Fire Punch or Earthquake, it'll be fine.

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BTW Ray uses that same Vappy O_O

Handle her with care... with good predictions she can be a very valuable asset to your team. If you ever want, try Ice Beam on Vaporeon if you want to take care of Dragons. She takes hits with relative ease and fires off from 256 Sp.Atk... which is REALLY strong (this is WITHOUT any investment in Sp Atk!) But Toxic is fine.

Vaporeon has no real business taking care of dragons in the first place, as its 2HKO'd by the standard Outrage nowadays after stealth rock damage and OHKO'd by a salamences +1 Life orb outrage , even with 252hp/252def bold, meaning it can't switch into Mence.

Quite a bit of pokemon also set up on it, provided vaporeon has no Special attack investment ( and many do not ) so while it may be a great addition to a Balanced team, it has no place on stall or offensive teams.

Rock Slide has that added chance of flinching, which Aerodactyl is very well capable of. Stone Edge tends to miss... which some people don't like. Yes, Rock Slide misses too, but less so than Stone Edge.

Aqueel, for Aero, beware of Swampert :P

Other than Vappy I'm not sure what else you have can switch into it.

Aerodactyl is a solid lead as it can take out heatran, infernape and azelf pretty well. ( assuming you have Crunch + earthquake and attack first turn) However Metagross easily trumps it as Bullet punch is a 2HKO. Meaning you either setup rocks and die, taunt and die or not actually be a suicide lead and switch out.

Swampert also pretty easily walls you, but once you taunt and get SR off, his job is done regardless. ( which is good as Avalanche is a 2HKO anyway )

Anyway you have a pretty big DDmence,/Nite/Gyarados weakness they have plenty of chances to setup up on one of Lucario's attacks, your Vaporeon assuming they don't switch directly into a toxic, Gyarados sets up on Jirachi and emploeon.

You have a minor Choice scarf Flygon weakness, A major earthquake weakness ( as only Aerodactyl is immune and no one else even resists it. )

AND only Aerodactyl is immune to spikes as well. Giving you a very problematic stall weakness.

Also ScarfZone picks off Lucario, Jirachi and Empoleon pretty easily, but it shouldn't be too hard to play around.

Payback is recommended over Crunch due to the higher base power of going last.

Payback's PP is easily stalled out so Crunch is actually the preferred option otherwise skarmory will wall you to death. ( as it can roost meaning you only have a base power of 50, and with its meager PP you wont last too long. Crunch has a 20% chance to defense drop though, which means after 1 curse you can out damage roost and win )

Lucario (M) @ Choice Specs

Ability: Inner Focus

EVs: 4 HP/252 SpE/252 SAtk

Timid nature (+SpE, -Atk)

- Aura Sphere

- Shadow Ball

- Hidden Power [ice]

- Vacuum Wave

Considering Tyranitar is a physical attacker, I'm making Lucario a special attacker in case of any physical walls. HP Ice is for dragons, which my team lacks coverage of, and the rest is obvious.

Change the specs to a Life orb, and change Vacuum wave to Agility. This gives you the freedom to switch moves, but also allows you to effectively outspeed and kill off many of his common switch ins ( including gliscor )

Also on that note, Spe = Speed, SpD = Special defense.

I'm fairly sure you can pick up where I'm going with this. :D

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Tyranitar w/ Leftovers/Lum Berry

Careful (SpD, -SpAtk)

Sand Stream

176 Sp Defense/8 Defense/252 Atk/74 HP

- Curse

- Subsitute

- Payback

- Filler

Tyranitar has amazing stats in everything except speed. Seriously, it's slower than CHARMANDER. So lets just drop that stat instead of hopelessly boosting it with dragon dance while the opponent switches in Scarf Cross.

Anyway, the EVs:

  • 176 SpD+SpD sand storm boost means Scarf Heatran, at best, gets a 3hko.
  • 8 EVs in Defense present standard Metagross from OHKO with Meteor Mash
  • The other EVs are adjustable to suit your playing style.

I am in the process of posting a new team, I am gonna have to try this set out first with adjustments of course.

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Wraith, even bulky Salamence spreads can outrun Jolly 252 speed ev Lucario. You're not going to outrun it.

First of all, 90 base speed, 252 speed evs with a Jolly nature is still SLOWER than a 100 base speed, 252 speed evs and a neutral speed nature.

Second, base 100s typically have the EV spread to outrun +speed nature base 90s.

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Wraith, even bulky Salamence spreads can outrun Jolly 252 speed ev Lucario. You're not going to outrun it.

First of all, 90 base speed, 252 speed evs with a Jolly nature is still SLOWER than a 100 base speed, 252 speed evs anSecond, base 100s typically have the EV spread to outrun +speed nature base 90s. a neutral speed nature.

AND....Sorry to say mate, but thats wrong.

Base 100 with 252 speed and a neutral nature = 299 Speed.

Base 90 with 252 Speed and a Positive nature = 306 Speed.

What you need( on base 100's ) is a Positive nature and 176 speed EV's to outspeed ALL non scarfed base 90's. Which also lets you outspeed all base 100's without a positive nature and more speed EV's than you.

Second, base 100s typically have the EV spread to outrun +speed nature base 90s.

Yes, they do! but misinformation should be a crime. :)

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Quickly changed Tyranatar because frankly, I wasn't getting much from him in his old spec =/

I'll wait for everyone to finish arguing about Lucario before I see what to do with him.

Endiku, you said that Vaporeon has no place in my team - what should I replace him with?

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Gliscor added. BTW, great title for the thread =)

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Gliscor (M) @ Leftovers

Ability: Sand Veil

EVs: 252 HP/40 Atk/216 Spd

Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)

- Swords Dance

- Roost

- Earthquake

- Stone Edge

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Wraith, even bulky Salamence spreads can outrun Jolly 252 speed ev Lucario. You're not going to outrun it.

First of all, 90 base speed, 252 speed evs with a Jolly nature is still SLOWER than a 100 base speed, 252 speed evs and a neutral speed nature.

Second, base 100s typically have the EV spread to outrun +speed nature base 90s.

I WAS talking about dragons, not Lucario @_@

And neutral 100s end up at 299. Positive 90s can end up higher.

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Endiku, you said that Vaporeon has no place in my team - what should I replace him with?

No, I said he has no place on a Stall team, and no place on an offensive team. he works fine on a balanced team, but gliscor is a GREAT replacement for him, it also helps with your Metagross weakness among other things.

Although you may want to consider swapping out Swords dance for U-turn, but thats entirely up to how you want to play gliscor and Swords dance also has its specific uses.

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upon a predicted switch Salamence players will still use a Dragon Dance, outspeeding even a 306 speed Lucario.

And what about the jolly/timid Salamences? You cannot take a chance and hope that your opponent is a bulky set.

Assuming that's the case, there is nothing that can be done. That's why I suggested scarf - then you CAN switch in on a DD and still be faster than non-jolly/timid sets, as well as score a OHKO. As an added bonus, they probably won't expect it either, judging on how this conversation has gone.

Taking chances is what this game is all about. A jolly/timid DD'd salamence will outspeed you, unfortunately. Just the way the ball rolls. I don't see the issue.

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