Ho-oh for OU?

[Syberia]

Do you really want battles to be even more dependent on Stealth Rock than they are now? If Ho-oh gets into OU, that's pretty much forcing every team to run Stealth Rock (presumably as a lead, so as not to give Ho-oh any openings, and presumably on a Scarfed pokemon, as to avoid Aerodactyl's Taunt) as well as a Ghost-type to make sure rocks stay down, and on top of that you've still got to actually find a way to switch into and counter Ho-oh without dying with only 4 pokemon left.

And just for the record, Ho-oh resists pretty much everything Scizor can throw at it. So whether it survives or not is irrelevant, as it can't actually hurt it.

[Goldgross]

Do you really want battles to be even more dependent on Stealth Rock than they are now? If Ho-oh gets into OU, that's pretty much forcing every team to run Stealth Rock (presumably as a lead, so as not to give Ho-oh any openings, and presumably on a Scarfed pokemon, as to avoid Aerodactyl's Taunt) as well as a Ghost-type to make sure rocks stay down, and on top of that you've still got to actually find a way to switch into and counter Ho-oh without dying with only 4 pokemon left.

And just for the record, Ho-oh resists pretty much everything Scizor can throw at it. So whether it survives or not is irrelevant, as it can't actually hurt it.

Very well said. That would overcentralize the entire Meta-game even more than it is now =/. No water type could really hurt it on the special side due to its epic 154 sp.def and the Aerodactyl switch in could be predicted and Sacred fired on the spot. That would cripple anything that resists it but counters it....mainly Gyarados, Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, Snorlax etc. Snorlax isnt bulky enough to take hits that strong from Ho-oh. The rest hate burns.
Furthermore Metagross and Scizor make great partners as they would remove the rock types and Snorlax from Ho-ohs way.-_- Those two Steels are already used a lot in OU.

This would also necessitate the use of a Cleric on every team just to heal those burns. The best Clerics being Blissey and Celebi are gonna get massacred by this beast.
The need of a rapid spinner is, as everyone has put, quite obvious and easy. There were 4 great spinners in OU before Donphan went to UU but the remaining ones can find niches on any team, really.

The best counter to Ho-oh would actually be Suicune. With its nice defenses and resisting type it could take most hits from Ho-oh and possibly stall it out of Sacred Fire pp..........but obviously thats only one counter and most would just switch out =/. Calm Mind Cune could start to CM on Ho-oh but it has Punishment to deal with those kinds and will do massive damage after say 4 CMs. On top of that Suicune doesnt have nearly as great a power as Vaporeon (who btw has bad defense) to hit Ho-oh hard enough to put it in the 2hko range. Ho-oh will just roost OR recover those hits and stall CUNE OUT.

Of course the physical walls get maimed by this legend and other than Hippowdon nothing could survive its onslaught. Burn would cripple Hippo to an extent that even with Stone edge it could do only 50%, while Ho-oh could hammer it on the special side and finish it off.
The ONLY other phys wall that comes to my mind is Regirock -___-........... which would be on every team.......Yes, it takes SFs and EQs well, but the burn would leave it crippled and it will have to resort to Rest......which leaves it open to the Steel monsters that i named earlier. Again this would centralize the meta-game around 4 maybe 5 pokemon.

Simply put Ho-oh is an insane pokemon already and the only reason it doesnt see much usage in the Uber tier is cause, that tier consists of a lot more Special attacking heavy hitters than physical, with fire being a resisted type by the Dragons and Kyogre running around everywhere. BUT, this doesnt change the fact that Ho-oh can cripple Rayquazas, Groudon by using its sunlight against it and Dialga.

LOL maybe an Azumarril could Aqua Jet a Ho-oh at 50~60% HP, but seriously, who would think of carrying that frail pokemon?
Honestly, this Topic of shifting tiers shouldnt have even been for Ho-oh. Start a topic for something thats possible to contain in OU, ya get mah drift?
Im talkin bout freakin Garchomp >_> Its uber ya but OU can still contain it with Latias being there (wonder why that happened though).

[Greencat]

It's a lethal monster. It can kill water counters with Thunder and Swamperts and the likes with Giga Drain or Energy Ball.

[wraith89]

Azumarill isn't exactly THAT frail Gold, but no one EVs it to be defensive, so you're right in some way.

I'll agree with everyone here... Ho-oh belongs in Ubers and should stay uber. While that W4 to Rock looks bad on paper, you'd have to take into account what Ho-oh CAN actually do before dismissing it as OU.

Ho-oh is capable of phazing if I remember correctly so Suicune can be thwarted, not to mention Ho-oh has Punishment to deal with CM types. Also, Ho-oh can be geared to do many things, such as Pressure stalling, physical sweeper, CM sweeper... and those stats aren't anything to frown about. Sure, with the overusage of Kyogre in Ubers, people just don't use Ho-oh as much, but that doesn't mean Ho-oh should be brought down to OU. It'll mess up standard so badly with its high burn rate and will recover off damage as it pleases.

And I don't think I've ever seen Ho-oh carry a Grass move... but that's most likely because it's seen on the Uber metagame... but yes, let's take that into consideration. From a base 110 SpA, it can surely wreak havoc against stuff like Swampert or Rhyperior...

[Gin]

Hey all, I met up with Airhorton, the OP.

bobtheedibleone: Hey, aren't you the guy who said his Scizor survived a Sacred Fire?
airhorton: yes
bobtheedibleone: What was its set? May I ask?
airhorton: the Scizor set was Choice Banded, with 248 Hp evs, 252 Atk and 8 spe
bobtheedibleone: What was its nature?
airhorton: Adamant, maybe I was hit by EQ, now I'm not sure.

(Sacred Fire with this set is: 366%, 355%, 362%, 355%, 366%, 340%)
Earthquake with this set is: 53%/60%(2HKO)
53%/60%(2HKO)
55%/57%(2HKO)
61%/53%(2HKO)
55%/57%(2HKO)
56%/54%(2HKO)
If he was hit by EQ, then he would have survived. However, I doubt it, as he said that the rain was not on, and EQ's power is not affected by the rain.

[wraith89]

Thanks for the testing, but as Syberia pointed out earlier whether Scizor survives or not is irrelevant because Scizor can't do anything to Ho-oh anyways :/

[Goldgross]

Even Swampy cant really do anything to it =/. Once burned, physical hits wont do much and swampy having low special atk and Ho-oh having that godly special def, even Torrent boosted Hydro Pumps wouldnt muster up too much. It wouldnt even need Energy Ball to finish the job. Empoleon might handle it but again Ho-oh can phaze or just EQ that Penguin to death.

[Arandomproduction1]

Smogon would never do this, its like saying Arceus is unbanned in ubers. Molters is basically and inferior Ho-Oh as it is. Anyways Scizor needs MAX SpD and Occa Berry to survive a Sacred fire...

[Substitute]

Do you really want battles to be even more dependent on Stealth Rock than they are now? If Ho-oh gets into OU, that's pretty much forcing every team to run Stealth Rock (presumably as a lead, so as not to give Ho-oh any openings, and presumably on a Scarfed pokemon, as to avoid Aerodactyl's Taunt) as well as a Ghost-type to make sure rocks stay down, and on top of that you've still got to actually find a way to switch into and counter Ho-oh without dying with only 4 pokemon left.

And just for the record, Ho-oh resists pretty much everything Scizor can throw at it. So whether it survives or not is irrelevant, as it can't actually hurt it.

This is the reason why Ho-oh should remain in Ubers...the game already is overcentralized with the dragons and the steels pokes...Ho-oh would be a bit too much.

[ocwil]

ahh nice ho-oh is my favorite so now it's even strong even better :P
...(now some practice and i'll be crashing the meta game)...

Spoiler

nah... just jokking

[memjee]

ho oh lead would destroy, it doesn't have to worry about Sr

[Illithian]

ho oh lead would destroy, it doesn't have to worry about Sr

Firstly, no, it wouldn't, and anyway there are much better leads.

Secondly, its ridiculous to bring back an old thread like this. If you want to see a VERY long winded discussion about WHY Ho-oh shouldn't be in OU, which took me a while to actually understand, you can look over there.

Fact is, Ho-oh could easily be usable in OU but there are many instances where it would be simply too powerful. Especially on Stall teams. And it would centralize. SR, Rapid Spin, and anti-RS support would become a requirement.

In any case, Locked.