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Thread: Pidgeot: Gamefreak's First Mistake?

  1. #16
    DIVINE FIST Goldgross's Avatar
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    Re: Pidgeot: Gamefreak's First Mistake?

    If Pidgeot was Gamefreaks first mistake.......then poor Zapdos is definitly the second one. I mean......look at what the 4th gen gave it. Heat Wave? almost every other flying type pokemon got THAT. Pidgeot got it too! Whats the big deal with getting it anyway?!
    Why couldnt Gamefreak give Zappy Brave Bird? I mean so many birds can learn it............2 obscure pokemon can learn that move. Mainly Blaziken, yeah its derived from a chicken but does that mean it should get Brave Bird? Crobat isnt even a god damn bird!!!! and it still gets it. Zappy is one of the bravest birds out there....shouldnt it deserve BB?

    Honestly, Gamefreak really screwed up poor Zappy . It was on the verge of becoming Uber............ but they deprived it. Look at its fellow legendary birds, Articuno gets a OHKO move in Sheer Cold and Mind Reader to form the deadliest combo, that too from a pokemon THAT sturdy! Moltres gets SKY ATTACK!!! Thats the strongest flying type move there is! It can use it so well with that 100 base atk stat of his. That with the same amount of spe atk as Zappy!!

    Staraptor gets Close Combat....why couldnt they give Zappy that? their talons are the same in size and they both have long and powerful legs. If not that, at least it shouldve learnt Brave Bird for cryin out loud >_> It could solve the eternal problem with blissey that it has but NOOOOOOOO, whats it left with? just a stupid Drill Peck >_<
    Its blindingly obvious, Zapdos was robbed. My heart weeps for Zappy ; _ ; Its such an amazing pokemon.................
    ................
    ................
    ................


    ROFLMAO

    OMG that was epic!!! I was just messing with you guys XD. BTW All the things said here are 100% true, but still i wont deny the fact that Zappy was born with a Golden spoon in its long, sharp beak.
    Its the best bird of all no question. The only "competition" it faces is from Aerodactyl who isnt even a bird -_-. Bulky Zapdos can even survive a Stone edge from Aerodactyl and return the favor with a scintillating thunderbolt for a OHKO. Its hands down the best flying type other than Arceus who frankly shouldnt be compared to at all. It resists the flying type itself for God sakes! No doubt in my mind that its the best of all. Not only that but its also the best Electric type by a mile. Only rotom can come close to it and it too is weak to Dark and Ghost thereby making it weak to Pursuit and Sucker punch which dont rely on Rotoms offensive capabilities. Zappy on the other hand can take a Choice banded Ice shard from an Adamant Mamoswine and never be OHKOd even with just 6 HP EVs Its freakin amazing.

    Yes wraith i know your gonna go crazy every time you read this, but its all true. Zappy is a shining star 8D. Even though im not much into Flying OR Electric type pokemon.......Zappy gets a whole lotta love from me




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  2. #17
    Ho-oh Rider ocwil's Avatar
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    Re: Pidgeot: Gamefreak's First Mistake?

    i have to agree it's the best looking bird
    but aside that it's not good shame on you gamefreak!!
    "If a cable has one end, then it has another."

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  3. #18
    Emperor of the Originals Helpful Q&A MemberSuper Moderator wraith89's Avatar
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    Re: Pidgeot: Gamefreak's First Mistake?

    Gold you've gotta be kidding me. Articuno and Moltres were the ones screwed up, not Zapdos! They continued to buff up Zapdos while they left Articuno and Moltres in the dirt... but that's a completely different topic. I'll write another one about that.

    The last thing we need is an uber Zapdos.
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  4. #19
    DIVINE FIST Goldgross's Avatar
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    Re: Pidgeot: Gamefreak's First Mistake?

    Quote Originally Posted by wraith89
    Gold you've gotta be kidding me. Articuno and Moltres were the ones screwed up, not Zapdos! They continued to buff up Zapdos while they left Articuno and Moltres in the dirt... but that's a completely different topic. I'll write another one about that.

    The last thing we need is an uber Zapdos.
    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    ROFLMAO

    OMG that was epic!!! I was just messing with you guys XD. BTW All the things said here are 100% true, but still i wont deny the fact that Zappy was born with a Golden spoon in its long, sharp beak.
    Lmao, i WAS kidding you wraithy. But what you dont realize is that all the above said is true. The birds are equal, movepool wise......(no brave bird -_-) , its only the awesome typing and the stats that make Zappy so much better. It was BORN epic, you cant blame it. Oh and btw, Articuno dominated most of the 1st i believe. Gamefreak didnt want it hogging all the limelight. They never really buffed up Zappy actually. They are all the same. Zappy still wants to beat Blissey ; _ ;

    Quote Originally Posted by ocwil
    i have to agree it's the best looking bird
    but aside that it's not good shame on you gamefreak!!
    Pidgeot or Zapdos?

    hepoop:I wuv you waify! :3
    Isnt that cuuuuuuute.......BUT ITS WRONG!!!!!

  5. #20
    Emperor of the Originals Helpful Q&A MemberSuper Moderator wraith89's Avatar
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    Re: Pidgeot: Gamefreak's First Mistake?

    I realize Gold :/
    Articuno didn't completely dominate Gen I. Zapdos was the dominator, only it couldn't beat Rhydon or Golem (in simulators now it has the tools to beat them thanks to "perfect IV Hidden Power Ice or Grass")... but nevertheless it was pretty good back then (just like the other two, although Moltres only had Fire Blast to attack with). Then Articuno went downhill (and Gamefreak screwed up with Ice and Electric, Ice being so weak defensively while Electrics are only weak to Ground while Zapdos is immune to it... oh boy).

    Anyways back to Pidgeot. 1.5x on both speed and attack? Seems a bit more broken with the speed factored in. I'd just say 2x boost on attack or SpA... I don't see people complaining about how broken Marowak is, even in TR (not to mention it can take physical hits unlike Pidgeot). Then maybe it would be possible to make something like an Agility set or something pretty cool. If 2x does sound broken (I'm not seeing it yet though) maybe 1.5x in each attack wouldn't be as bad.
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  6. #21
    Nightmare Phantom XR1 SilentFox's Avatar
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    Re: Pidgeot: Gamefreak's First Mistake?

    Silver Plume item to be held by pidgeot
    raises att and spatt 2 stages

    I want this in gamefreak .... Farfetched has a item for pete's sake
    Thanks to Toffeuy for the awesome sig
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  7. #22
    Emperor of the Originals Helpful Q&A MemberSuper Moderator wraith89's Avatar
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    Re: Pidgeot: Gamefreak's First Mistake?

    Maybe with separate items though... one plume for attack and one plume for special attack... or else that thing could become a dangerous mixed sweeper with Agility and stuff.
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    -----Love----------
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    -----Anger---------
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    -----Pee Pee--------
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    Guested: pee pee

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    ------Owned by SCV------
    SCV: what you eat live rattatas?

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  8. #23

    Re: Pidgeot: Gamefreak's First Mistake?

    I know this thread is really old, but I cannot help it I registered myself as a member until March 2011... In any case, I wanted to say something about the Pidgeot discussion here! Let's start with a quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by wraith89 View Post
    So Pidgeot is supposedly the bulkier of the birds hm? Aside from Noctowl and Togekiss, let's take a look. 83/75/70 Defenses... looks somewhat like something we already know... Infernape? And did we ever consider Infernape as a defensive machine? :/
    Hmm, sometimes you get stuck when comparing obvious stronger Pokémon with obvious weaker ones. I remembered a same situation when I was playing HeartGold: Parasect was my 'defensive Pokémon', while Scyther was my 'sweeping Pokémon'. But after a closer inspection, it came to mind Scyther was in fact even bulkier than Parasect! (60/80/80 for Parasect and 70/80/80 in the case of Scyther). Very sad indeed, but this sort of comparisons are not really relevant. Did you think Tropius is bulky? Well, maybe, but Garchomp is even bulkier than Tropius, while it is not even meant to be bulky! It is very obvious your defensive capatibilities are better when you have more base stats to spent overall, and after all, when you lack those base stats, it does not make you 'not defensive' at once.

    Anyway, I did not like Pidgeot for particular reasons. Not because it was weak or something, just because I liked Fearow more, or its pre-evolution Pidgeotto! A couple of years back in time I played Gold and Crystal, where I frequently got Pidgeotto because I get sick of continuously taking Spearows as my party member! You could only Fly, Wing Attack and something like Sand-attack/Mud-slap/Steel Wing/Thief. I did not mind (and do not mind to this day) it was hard to train - it was just a sweet Pokémon. I liked Bayleef more than Meganium, so I kept Bayleef too, the same story. At a time I ran out of Everstones!

    But yeah, some Pokémon do not really have good stats, but there always have to be some to make others strong, eh? The thing I would agree on is the capability of learning some usefull moves. Pokémon with a movepool as wide as the Pacific Ocean get more and more moves and some Pokémon are left behind with things they already got a couple of generations. Pidgeot did not really took benefit of that special/physical split, as some serious attack are spread over both sides of the spectrum. Since its Attack and Special Attack stat are not very high, you cannot use them both effectively. Actually, Pidgeot is not keeping me away from sleeping when it comes to usefull moves and coverage... A lot of other Pokémon I like did not get them, the first prize given to Sunflora.

    Competitively it should be pretty worthless, but in-game Pidgeot is good to use! You only have to have some guts (or boredom) to use it, I think. Take Karen's advise and pick the ones you like.
    Wingull, take my love wherever you may fly...

  9. #24
    Emperor of the Originals Helpful Q&A MemberSuper Moderator wraith89's Avatar
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    Re: Pidgeot: Gamefreak's First Mistake?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunny day View Post
    Hmm, sometimes you get stuck when comparing obvious stronger Pokémon with obvious weaker ones. I remembered a same situation when I was playing HeartGold: Parasect was my 'defensive Pokémon', while Scyther was my 'sweeping Pokémon'. But after a closer inspection, it came to mind Scyther was in fact even bulkier than Parasect! (60/80/80 for Parasect and 70/80/80 in the case of Scyther). Very sad indeed, but this sort of comparisons are not really relevant. Did you think Tropius is bulky? Well, maybe, but Garchomp is even bulkier than Tropius, while it is not even meant to be bulky! It is very obvious your defensive capatibilities are better when you have more base stats to spent overall, and after all, when you lack those base stats, it does not make you 'not defensive' at once.
    It's the fact Pidgeot is at its final stage; it cannot go any further than what it is. All the other birds have the chance to evolution; they royally messed Pidgeot up. You would think Pidgeot would at least have a defensive edge over the other offensively oriented birds if they made it offensively challenged, but it isn't much help at all. It's to show that it is hardly an edge over the others.

    I don't know about you, but you don't think Pidgeot was meant to be a powerful end-game Pokemon? I sure thought it was. It took a long time, a huge effort, just to get this large beautiful bird, but all that battling capabilities people talked about was nothing more than exaggeration.

    Garchomp is bulky as heck because they broke it. I don't think it wasn't meant to be bulky; it was meant to break the game ._.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunny day View Post
    Anyway, I did not like Pidgeot for particular reasons. Not because it was weak or something, just because I liked Fearow more, or its pre-evolution Pidgeotto! A couple of years back in time I played Gold and Crystal, where I frequently got Pidgeotto because I get sick of continuously taking Spearows as my party member! You could only Fly, Wing Attack and something like Sand-attack/Mud-slap/Steel Wing/Thief. I did not mind (and do not mind to this day) it was hard to train - it was just a sweet Pokémon. I liked Bayleef more than Meganium, so I kept Bayleef too, the same story. At a time I ran out of Everstones!
    Two words: Drill Peck. That was the best Flying STAB move and Spearow had access to it. Pidgeot had what, a 35 base power Wing Attack? Yeah, I think I'll pass. I can overlook all that, but to some people, they want efficiency, and they'll know when a Pokemon is failing them. Nothing stops people from using what they like, but after a while you begin to notice these things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunny day View Post
    But yeah, some Pokémon do not really have good stats, but there always have to be some to make others strong, eh? The thing I would agree on is the capability of learning some usefull moves. Pokémon with a movepool as wide as the Pacific Ocean get more and more moves and some Pokémon are left behind with things they already got a couple of generations. Pidgeot did not really took benefit of that special/physical split, as some serious attack are spread over both sides of the spectrum. Since its Attack and Special Attack stat are not very high, you cannot use them both effectively. Actually, Pidgeot is not keeping me away from sleeping when it comes to usefull moves and coverage... A lot of other Pokémon I like did not get them, the first prize given to Sunflora.

    Competitively it should be pretty worthless, but in-game Pidgeot is good to use! You only have to have some guts (or boredom) to use it, I think. Take Karen's advise and pick the ones you like.
    I use Pidgeot because I like it, but look at its Pokedex description, stating about how majestic and how fast it is. It has the looks, but its stats makes absolutely no sense. It is supposed to be faster than Garchomp! It was a mistake that Gamefreak never rectified. I have to say they "tried" to improve Pidgeot this generation (V) by adding Hurricane as a new STAB move, but it's still not enough to make it as fearsome as it should be. But it is one of those "generational" stuff. The addition of Staraptor was basically Gamefreak biting its thumb at Pidgeot.

    In-game, there are better options. In every game there's a Pidgey, there's always a Spearow one route ahead waiting to be under your wings. But you know me... it's always Pidgey for me.
    Project Pokemon is:
    Spoiler

    -----Fellowship----
    Gin: Yo

    -----Laughter-----
    CuleX: TEE HEE

    -----Fame---------
    Shining Mew2: Just put me on your sig >_<

    -----Love----------
    0660: I love you.

    -----Anger---------
    Mewtwo EX: DIE FAT AMERICAN!
    Mewtwo EX: DIE!!!!
    Mewtwo EX: Too much chicken?

    -----Pee Pee--------
    Guested: ha ha
    Guested: pee pee

    -----Evil Villains--------
    damio: I knew I was evil too

    -----Friends----------
    Greencat: So like, I was in the neighborhood and wanted to say hi. So.. um... HI!

    -----Excitement----------
    ParaDoX65: Yup, It's sure going to be exciting.

    -----He's not done--------
    pokemonfan: I'm not done blabbering....

    -----Requests----------
    UnderXRay: will be ready in a few minutes, i will pm you on when to come to the club.

    -----Jokes------------
    Ziz: Drunk lol. Only kidding.

    -----I'm who?------------
    Zmaster: you're definitely Smogon ._.

    ------Reward------------
    FLOOTENKERP: ZOMG Wraith, I finally was awarded for my hard work! Wraith, I got the event contrib badge!

    ------Good Lucks----------
    Phreen: Oh, so its your first year in college, well best of luck to you, hope you find what you want.

    -----Denial----------
    Renegadeshroom: I refuse to accept that you have green hair!

    ----Because He Asked For It
    COBHC: You think you are old enough to quit on pkm? Well I think you sucked enough at it

    ----Russians--------
    SilentFox: Спасибо большое

    -----Hygiene Problems--------
    Fallen: You haven't showered in two days!?! That's gross. MetaGROSS should be your favorite Pokémon..

    -----Conspiracy----
    Randomspot555: Smogon isn't "attacking your creativity." They don't have elite squads of ninjas kidnapping you and forcing you to use Scizor.

    ------Owned by SCV------
    SCV: what you eat live rattatas?

    -----Philosophy----
    Tbird: If a naked man trolls some animals in the woods and no one is there to witness it, did a naked man troll animals in the woods?

    -----Fart...-----
    Wraith89: Fart

    ----------------------
    Together... we make Project Pokemon. Never forget all the good times we have had everyone!
    (If I forgot someone or if anyone wants a quote change, please let me know!)

    Important Links
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    My Competitive Teams
    Divine Rights (Gen V) / Prometheus (Gen V) / Gloria in Excelsis (Gen IV) / Samson Agonistes (Gen IV) / Team Megaman (Gen IV) / The Misfits (Gen V)

  10. #25

    Re: Pidgeot: Gamefreak's First Mistake?

    Quote Originally Posted by wraith89 View Post
    I don't know about you, but you don't think Pidgeot was meant to be a powerful end-game Pokemon? I sure thought it was. It took a long time, a huge effort, just to get this large beautiful bird, but all that battling capabilities people talked about was nothing more than exaggeration.
    That just sounds as a 'fun fact' to me, I am afraid. How much effort did it take to get such an mysterious Pokémon like Glalie? You had to train a loser like Snorunt (although, it is somehow pretty funny) until level 42! And then, Glalie isn't that 'strong' either. I do not think putting such aesthetic meanings on game features like level-up and the such would be decisive.

    Quote Originally Posted by wraith89 View Post
    Two words: Drill Peck. That was the best Flying STAB move and Spearow had access to it. Pidgeot had what, a 35 base power Wing Attack? Yeah, I think I'll pass. I can overlook all that, but to some people, they want efficiency, and they'll know when a Pokemon is failing them. Nothing stops people from using what they like, but after a while you begin to notice these things.
    Personally, I find Drill Peck such an agressive attack for Pidgeot, so luckily it has not got it. And not every Pokémon has to have the most strong attacks. I know, they had to give Pidgeot something nicer, but Wing Attack is almost as twice as strong as you put it down there (60 base power, 35 pp. ^^). It was just a pity Fly was not really stronger, so mostly I kept Wing Attack instead of Fly in the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by wraith89 View Post
    I use Pidgeot because I like it, but look at its Pokedex description, stating about how majestic and how fast it is. It has the looks, but its stats makes absolutely no sense.
    Meh, those descriptions in the dex are just, not worth knowing... They are so ridiculous! In Fr/Lg I saw how exaggerated they were (before, I did not noticed it really, I think). Machop could beat a hundred people in wrestling, Rapidash could run a freaking 150 miles per hour, and more of that... And I do not think the makers would represent that in base stats (105 speed is just pathetic for 150 miles... what about Ninjask then? Is it breaking the sound barrier or something? ;P).

    Another thing, Tropius may not be as bad as Pidgeot (I guess you will say that anyway when I state the reverse), but to me, it always has been such a charming Pokémon. While, when encountering it around Fortree, it was just a mighty Pokémon to see. I always expected more of it, but it seems it is just such a kind soul instead. I liked that too, after a while.

    So yeah, Pidgeot has been neglected, but I already agreed with you on that, Wraith. I am only stating (I think) it has not really something to do with those in-game things, and that there are tons of other Pokémon which have even a more bad move set or stats than Pidgeot.
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  11. #26
    Emperor of the Originals Helpful Q&A MemberSuper Moderator wraith89's Avatar
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    Re: Pidgeot: Gamefreak's First Mistake?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunny day View Post
    That just sounds as a 'fun fact' to me, I am afraid. How much effort did it take to get such an mysterious Pokémon like Glalie? You had to train a loser like Snorunt (although, it is somehow pretty funny) until level 42! And then, Glalie isn't that 'strong' either. I do not think putting such aesthetic meanings on game features like level-up and the such would be decisive.
    Glalie has another chance of evolution (even if they're not doing that, but it still does). Pidgeot on the other hand has no other way since it is taking up the 3rd slot of a Pokemon evolution. did you still not get that after I've been saying that gazillion times? Besides, Snorunt has an alternate evo in the form of Froslass as well, which has a role. Also, Glalie isn't a common plain sight Pokemon; it's a side Pokemon people get to complete their Pokedex or for some other exotic reasons, unlike Pidgey. So moot point.

    (BTW Glalie with Moody is crazy good... well, not great because the randomness keeps it in check but it's scary)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunny day View Post
    Personally, I find Drill Peck such an agressive attack for Pidgeot, so luckily it has not got it. And not every Pokémon has to have the most strong attacks. I know, they had to give Pidgeot something nicer, but Wing Attack is almost as twice as strong as you put it down there (60 base power, 35 pp. ^^). It was just a pity Fly was not really stronger, so mostly I kept Wing Attack instead of Fly in the end.
    I probably should have clarified this before (sorry), but 35 BP was back in RBY, which was stupid (I was raging when I realised that was the only Flying move aside from Fly Pidgeot can learn). They fixed it in GSC to 60. But this is an example of why people wouldn't want to use Pidgeot. Though Gust was a normal move then, Spearow started off with Peck, which was just as strong as Wing Attack, giving you more reasons to use Spearow anyhow. Even then, the current learnset of Pidgeot is full of 40 base power moves until finally at level 38 (not even at 36) it learns Wing Attack, its first decent flying move. Other early birds learn Aerial Ace or Wing Attack at quite low levels. I've been stating this earlier... but this is ridiculous.

    Yes Drill Peck is ridiculous for a Pidgeot, but... level 38 Wing Attack? Can they like... move that lower... or at least at level 36 when it evolves? What's up with that? I mean, I can clearly see Pidgeot's movelist is based on blowing stuff (Gust/Sand Attack/Whirlwind/Twister/Hurricane at later levels), but there can be some improvements elsewhere. It does learn Brave Bird unlike Fearow, BUT it needs to breed with Staraptor to get that, which is patronising.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunny day View Post
    Meh, those descriptions in the dex are just, not worth knowing... They are so ridiculous! In Fr/Lg I saw how exaggerated they were (before, I did not noticed it really, I think). Machop could beat a hundred people in wrestling, Rapidash could run a freaking 150 miles per hour, and more of that... And I do not think the makers would represent that in base stats (105 speed is just pathetic for 150 miles... what about Ninjask then? Is it breaking the sound barrier or something? ;P).
    But the Pokemon's Pokedex descriptions actually form a basis for their stats. 105 base speed Rapidash? That's pretty awesome... it beats a lot of those base 100 speed Pokemon that's so widespread. Machop has a pretty high base attack too, that isn't so bad. Dragonite may not have the fastest speed despite its Pokedex description, but it has access to Extremespeed. Ninjask might indeed break the sound barrier o_o So some of it can help and make sense. Pidgeot's stats still make no sense and I don't see how it ever will. It's too modest for something of that caliber.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunny day View Post
    Another thing, Tropius may not be as bad as Pidgeot (I guess you will say that anyway when I state the reverse), but to me, it always has been such a charming Pokémon. While, when encountering it around Fortree, it was just a mighty Pokémon to see. I always expected more of it, but it seems it is just such a kind soul instead. I liked that too, after a while.
    Tropius might be actually far worse... I like Tropius too, because it is based off the Mokele-Mbembe, the very thing I want to see in real life. But though this guy got messed badly in stats, at least it has a chance of evolution. Pidgeot does not.

    Actually, Dream World Tropius (Harvest versions) is not all too bad. Though it has to be under the sun, it can get the job done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunny day View Post
    So yeah, Pidgeot has been neglected, but I already agreed with you on that, Wraith. I am only stating (I think) it has not really something to do with those in-game things, and that there are tons of other Pokémon which have even a more bad move set or stats than Pidgeot.
    The thing I already harped on is the not being able to evolve situation. I can understand those level 10 Bugs, such as Butterfree or Beedrill, since they're meant for early game ownage, but Pidgeot is clearly a long term Pokemon and there they messed up badly.

    Though there is one other Pokemon I would like to rant about, it isn't a long term Pokemon unlike Pidgeot, but it is clear he got trashed. It's Hitmonchan, who clearly has nothing over his two brothers. It's possible for an evolution however (though that won't really happen), but that's another Pokemon who Gamefreak decided to trash in the later games realising he just can't compete over Lee or Top.
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  12. #27
    Member Matt the Pokemaniac's Avatar
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    Re: Pidgeot: Gamefreak's First Mistake?

    I agree with all of you.
    Pidgeot has been neglected by Gamefreak.
    An evolved pokemon should not be this weak.
    If Gamefreak dosen't fix Pidgeot up, we can fix it up with an action replay instead.
    Though we would have to make a code for it first.


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  13. #28

    Re: Pidgeot: Gamefreak's First Mistake?

    Quote Originally Posted by wraith89 View Post
    Glalie has another chance of evolution (even if they're not doing that, but it still does). Pidgeot on the other hand has no other way since it is taking up the 3rd slot of a Pokemon evolution. did you still not get that after I've been saying that gazillion times? Besides, Snorunt has an alternate evo in the form of Froslass as well, which has a role. Also, Glalie isn't a common plain sight Pokemon; it's a side Pokemon people get to complete their Pokedex or for some other exotic reasons, unlike Pidgey. So moot point.

    The thing I already harped on is the not being able to evolve situation. I can understand those level 10 Bugs, such as Butterfree or Beedrill, since they're meant for early game ownage, but Pidgeot is clearly a long term Pokemon and there they messed up badly.
    Okay, so we agree on everything, except the 'he cannot have a possible chance of getting a evolution'? Since you stated it as a moot point, you may tell me why that question is such so decisive for you? What is the point of arguing with some highly speculative 'something that does not even exist on the point we are discussing'? I mean, it is not there! It is not even a wraith. Maybe GameFreak introduces a first 'evolutionary chain of 4' for Pidgeot in the near future! Sorry Wraith, unless you can explain it more clearly, I do not see the priority of that argument. And why does 'Glalie evolves even 6 levels later than majestic Pidgeot (and Snorunt is even harder to train than Pidgeotto, by the way)' not count? Is that difference meanless, then?

    Maybe I have to say Exploud... but I already know you consider him more lucky with his movepool (I consider him more lucky with that too. ^^). Or Jumpluff... but he is evolving at level 27, that is way to early, I suppose. Maybe you can tell me another thing instead: Why would you see Pidgeot as a such pitiful Pokémon? :| I get the feeling you want everyone to say you are right, and most of the members who said something are of the same opinion as you (see above), but why would Pidgeot so dogmatically be viewed as pathetic thing which cannot evolve anymore? What I want to make clear is that there are really a lot of other Pokémon which are neglected in the same (or in another) way as Pidgeot.

    Yes, if you keep focussing on the failure of Pidgeot, it will fail in the end. I think that is how it works.

    Edit: The heck, that signature of Matt the Pokemaniac blinded my eyes!
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  14. #29
    Emperor of the Originals Helpful Q&A MemberSuper Moderator wraith89's Avatar
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    Re: Pidgeot: Gamefreak's First Mistake?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunny day View Post
    Okay, so we agree on everything, except the 'he cannot have a possible chance of getting a evolution'? Since you stated it as a moot point, you may tell me why that question is such so decisive for you? What is the point of arguing with some highly speculative 'something that does not even exist on the point we are discussing'? I mean, it is not there! It is not even a wraith. Maybe GameFreak introduces a first 'evolutionary chain of 4' for Pidgeot in the near future! Sorry Wraith, unless you can explain it more clearly, I do not see the priority of that argument. And why does 'Glalie evolves even 6 levels later than majestic Pidgeot (and Snorunt is even harder to train than Pidgeotto, by the way)' not count? Is that difference meanless, then?
    At the moment it is clear Pokemon are not going past 3 stages, as many are fine in their 3 stage set. Any more and things will go beyond broken. Unless they change that, and you know I cannot predict the future... but let's hope not.

    Also, that was for the whole point of in-game battling. If Pidgeot wasn't so great competitively, maybe he has a chance in-game. Well, not quite. It will suit people fine however they want it to be, but this thing takes too much effort to get good, even from the start. I'm saying why did they give it some nonsensical stats in the end if it wasn't going to have much of a potential in the first place?

    You know you don't have to make Snorunt into Glalie unless you're playing Gen III. But by then, you must have high 30s-low 40s when you first encounter Snorunt. Yes, Snorunt is much harder to train than a Pidgeotto, but it's not there from the start; you get it much later in any of the game it appears in. Also, this is Pidgeot in COMPARISON with the OTHER birds that are READILY available as well. There's no need to compare it to Snorunt if there is nothing to compare it with. It doesn't take a role aside from the rare Pokemon people get to complete their dex or whatnot. Your argument would hold water if Snorunt had something to compare with, but that's not it. Frankly, I don't know if Snorunt can be compared to anything o_o

    Maybe I have to say Exploud... but I already know you consider him more lucky with his movepool (I consider him more lucky with that too. ^^). Or Jumpluff... but he is evolving at level 27, that is way to early, I suppose.
    Exploud has a ginormous movepool, so he's fine. Unpredictability and decent power makes him okay competitively and in-game. Jumpluff has a great role of Subseeding competitively. May not suit people in-game, but Jumpluff has been known to be incredibly annoying.

    Maybe you can tell me another thing instead: Why would you see Pidgeot as a such pitiful Pokémon? :| I get the feeling you want everyone to say you are right, and most of the members who said something are of the same opinion as you (see above), but why would Pidgeot so dogmatically be viewed as pathetic thing which cannot evolve anymore? What I want to make clear is that there are really a lot of other Pokémon which are neglected in the same (or in another) way as Pidgeot.


    Yes, if you keep focussing on the failure of Pidgeot, it will fail in the end. I think that is how it works.
    Because there is absolutely no reason (aside from personal preferences) to get a Pidgey over a Spearow or the later Doduo. Later birds that came in, such as Taillow or Starly, doesn't make Pidgey's existence feel any better. Competitively, Staraptor bit his thumb to the other birds giving them no reason to be ever used... well aside from the unstable Swellow I guess, and Pidgeot is in the bottom of the list, maybe sharing with Fearow at last due to the former learning Brave Bird and the latter not...

    In DPP though Pidgey got a small role as the rare bird found in an exotic land of bugs (5% encounter) and was some high level (49-51 I think) to please collectors looking for exotic creatures in Sinnoh. But I wonder if that's all it is now; to be some noob bird put to the side like that with bugs all stronger than it (that's sort of embarrassing to be frank).

    There isn't enough neglected Pokemon aside from Hitmonchan that I can think of actually, in competitive terms. Okay, early bugs like Kricketune or Beedrill, you can surely say that. But I see them as having some sort of a role; being powerful early game but later on they don't turn out too good. It seems most games have those (in Fire Emblem you call those Jeigans, for example). But it looks like Pidgeot was meant for the "start low end good" Pokemon like the other birds, but... it wasn't meant to be. You can say it is like the Snorunt of that place, but... you've already beat the game at that point, so whatever.

    If there was a theoretical game with all the early game birds in the same early routes, not many people would pick a bird who learns pitiful moves and needs to be level 18 to match a bird that evolves into a better bird at level 20, which then beats the first bird who needs to get to 36 to reach its final stage and still not beat the bird who turned much better at 20. And this happened... a lot. And if Starly and Taillow were in... yeah, forget the other two. :L

    Idk if this counts as a Normal bird, but Togekiss... was actually worth all the trouble to get :|

    Most other 3 stage Pokemon are really well off in their last stage. For example, Walrein doesn't look too good since none of its stats aside from HP is above 100, but it makes a mean stalling monster in hail. Azumarill was a joke in Gen II, but after the introduction of abilities, Azumarill became a beast thanks to Huge Power, making its laughable 50 attack into an unbelievably scary base 150 attack. Surely that isn't a joke. They took the time to improve it further by giving it physical STAB in Gen IV, and access to a priority move! Some Pokemon do well even with 2 stage or... if they don't evolve at all. Some evolved unnecessarily (Rhydon and Dusclops I'm looking at you). Yes, some were created that way... but I don't see how Pidgeot ended up with subpar stats. They had many opportunities to fix some of this; add a decent ability (whoops not done), give it a bigger movepool (its movepool is okay but still not there to have anything over the other birds), give it a unique item (that is yet to be done, but it is possible), maybe a signature move (Featherdance was SOMEWHAT like that, but it really isn't now that nearly every birds and their mother gets it, and Hurricane is given to a few others who can use it better). It just has it difficult. This bird wasn't meant to end up like this I think and Pidgeot just needs some sort of improvement to give it an edge over the other birds. Relatively higher bulk doesn't seem to cut it :/

    I'm not saying it is the absolute worst Pokemon out there; there are far worse things (hi Kricketune). In fact, I wouldn't mind if Pidgeot had Unfezant's stats... because clearly Unfezant was messed up badly due to it not getting the right moves. But it is clear Pidgeot is lacking a lot when in comparison to other birds, and it can hardly justify its aesthetics or Pokedex description with those base stats.

    Nah, I don't want everyone to agree with me, but I'm merely stating my opinions and defending them if I need to. It's just a game, relax (there is no room for ad hominem here) X_X;;

    But... I hope you can understand where I'm coming from and that it isn't just coming out of nowhere. You may already know I've pulled quite a few Pidgeot sweeps out of the hat for fun, but personal experiences can't count as an absolute; Pidgeot needs much more effort to pull in-game than the other birds, and competitively, more effort to maintain with unstable results when used. Something just isn't right. I would normally blame this on generation drift (every game series: newer additions always overpowers the older staples exponentially... ALWAYS), but seeing how they improved Azumarill or Gyarados or Feraligatr and Sneasel and some others... I don't see why Pidgeot was given no real improvements. Well actually, Brave Bird and Hurricane "were improvements", but the bird that outclasses the rest has access to Brave Bird... and a move to actually hurt Rock Pokemon as well (Close Combat), so I question Gamefreak. :/

    Great to see you're actually going in-depth in a discussion :P

    EDIT: Speaking of stats that don't make sense... 45 attack power on Onix? That's just wrong ._.
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  15. #30

    Re: Pidgeot: Gamefreak's First Mistake?

    How did you typed that in 15 minutes, Wraith?
    I am obviously lacking speed. ^^

    Quote Originally Posted by wraith89 View Post
    I'm saying why did they give it some nonsensical stats in the end if it wasn't going to have much of a potential in the first place?
    Maybe I am shifting from point to point, but sometimes something new comes up, which you do not necessarily have to see as a rejection of your arguments... Well, I think Game Freak did not really thought much about the potential of Pokémon in the first place. So, take Dragonite, back in the days of Red and Blue. Dragonite was a promising Pokémon too (due to the anime at least), it was mysterious, strong, the only 'dragon', Lance -the Dragon Master- got one in the game, but... Although it has good stats, it could only Hyper Beam, which leaves you immobile too. Besides, Dragon Rage was his only Dragon attack, so what is this for pathetic presence of a mighty Dragon Pokémon? I only think they experimented with base stats, for the first generations (I & II), and meant nothing particular with it. Pidgeot got some 'seemingly' bad stats, but that was for the players to prove.

    Off course, the next generation they had an eye for more extreme base stats, so I think they maybe would be aware of competitive uses of Pokémon. In any case, they gave some new attacks to some 'neglected' Pokémon too, so it is more visible. But it leaves me the question: Did they let some Pokémon fail when they created them, or not? I know Dragonite is a powerhouse now, but that does not solve my question (although, a bit, because it seems they admit their fault with doing such things). Keep this in mind for a while, because I am going back to Pidgeot now.

    The base stats of Pidgeot are really 'nonsensical', but your are stating too it can tie with Fearow, because it lacks Brave Bird. So that means some good attacks can make it something better, although the base stats are remaining the same? In that case, the problem 'could have been solved' if they gave Pidgeot meaningful attacks and moved Wing Attack a few levels down or something. (maybe you would say it is not enough, but at least, 'the problem' is solved on one major place. Oh yeah, and this is shifting to the speculative side too...) But if it was so, case closed. But what I mean with my Dragonite example, combined with this, it taking me to the following.

    The problem with that (the paragraph above) is, you mention other Pokémon as Walrein 'which you can use as staller'. But that really is an anachronistic view, did they really made Walrein to be like that? Walrein changed in Gen IV to be a potential staller (I am not really aware of changes in the world of competitive battling, but I thought Stallrein actually was a new invention back then. I did not became what it was immediately or very short after.) Anyway, even if it is not true what I said in the previous sentence, Wallrein was not that good in the times of R/S/E, when it was created. So was Azumarill, as you mention yourself. But, they get some additions in their moveset, ability or egg moves, which make them -at least- useful in competitive play. In the end, I am still sticking with that question, because I think you could apply that to Pidgeot, too. The point is, even some Pokémon that are now usable were sometimes pitiful when the were created (just as Pidgeot)... the only thing about Pidgeot is it got not improved, well the others did improve most of the time.

    Anyway, I do not think they wanted to make Pidgeot fail in the first place (I hope I made that point clear with that statement of Dragonite and the such), so its base stats is not really something to worry about. Off course, when it has spent 10 base stat in speed and attack, instead of defences, it would be a Fearow and useful as a sweeper. But even then it could be still outclassed, and it is not the case, so in principal it is fine with those weird base stats. Especially when I guessed right with that example of Fearow and Brave Bird you mentioned. Eh... I am getting of my point now. ^^ The problem is the moveset I think. That is the most simple way for Game Freak to solve such problems, but they did not. And there are many other Pokémon with the same problem. I am going to say Sunflora's name again, because Sunflora has one of the most worse movepools. Its stats are not that balanced as well, with that terrible 30 speed, but virtually all Grass moves take Sunflora to nowhere in the end. In those cases you ask yourself: do they will not accept/see that Pokémon fails that way? And off course, did they make it with that vision... or not? Hypno also was pretty pointless the first three generations I believe, but no, I just think they experimented. With Pidgeot, too.

    I know you still want to emphasize on the fact Pidgey is easy to get everywhere and Dragonite and the such are more exclusive. That makes them less comparable, I know. But why have they endlessly be compared with others? Hypno and Sunflora examples could not be comparable either (I already stopped to compare it with Snorunt. ), but they seriously have something in common.

    Quote Originally Posted by wraith89 View Post
    But... I hope you can understand where I'm coming from and that it isn't just coming out of nowhere. You may already know I've pulled quite a few Pidgeot sweeps out of the hat for fun, but personal experiences can't count as an absolute; Pidgeot needs much more effort to pull in-game than the other birds, and competitively, more effort to maintain with unstable results when used.
    I noticed the pain is coming from deep regions (or how I have to say that). ^^ I hoped I could make a consistent story this time, but I am always dwelling of, so I do not know this would makes much sense after the previous message. The only thing I came to realise is that you are really focussed on comparisons with other birds, while I have the tendency to look for other random Pokémon, which got in my opinion a sort of the same problem as Pidgeot. Anyway, maybe I am hitting some questions to think about... I do not really have the time to revise my story, because... I took me two hours to write down. So yeah, it is more fun to go in-depth, but it takes me so much effort to do!

    (Hehe, I saw your edit while I was typing! The giant snake of rocks has just... 45 base attack to create endlessly long tunnel underground and smash itself through massive mountains! )
    Wingull, take my love wherever you may fly...

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