Creation of the universe: Darwin or Bible

[kuoleva]

I'd kind of like to add on to what I've said before.

Kind of like what Okami said, I have a relationship with the God and Goddess.

But, I do not feel they needed to show me that with a feat like what Christ did. They love me. I know that. The Lord and Lady are me. Wraith, what you said about no other belief system allowing you to have a personal connection with a creator is far from the truth. Most of my time not spent at school or the computer is outside, sitting in my favourite tree, simply connecting to the God and Goddess. I feel that this world, this universe, was enough of a testament of love from them. There is beauty in everything, and there also is salvation. You do not have to accept a man who simply could just have been that, a man, whose story was poorly translated, and, well, twisted, to find love and peace. Knowledge is beautiful. There is beauty in love, trust, and hope, but also in darkness and despair. Simply letting us see the beauty that they created is enough love. If we misbehave, well, they love us, don't they? No need to get all pissy and chuck us in a lake of fire before we even know what we did wrong, and then learn and better ourselves.

And the thing about free will, I do agree on one point, you cannot force love. As such, it's why I do not understand the concept of hell, and thus a large part of the bible's message. Love is... Well, love. It's unconditional. To me, the love of the Christian god is conditional, meaning you have to worship him to get into heaven. If you don't, you're going to hell. I can't see a benevolent creator saying, "hay, i luf u guaise, but imma send u 4 teh eternal torturez cuz u no praise me". It's like taking a flock of sheep, and putting them in a cage. Then, you open the cage, and tell them, "you guys have free will now!" and zapping the sheep who decide to do their own thing.

And the whole "Eve ate the apple of truth" thing, it makes me facepalm. Why would god be so afraid of people having knowledge? Is he really that cruel that he would have us blindly follow him? If something went wrong, which if he were omniscient he'd have known free will wasn't a good idea, couldn't he just press his reset button? Why give us powers in the name of love, and then damn us for eternity if we use them? Seriously. Love. I don't really want to be created by a jealous god who feels the need to torture and kill those who don't follow his lifestyle.

I'm not trying to hate on your beliefs, but that's how I see it. If you could enlighten me, that'd be great. :/

[Aqueel]

I'm not going to post an opinion yet, because my opinion rapidly changes.

I will say that I'm very impressed with the answers given though Usually you'd expect threads like this to devolve into flame wars, but all the answers so far have been mature - and have given me things to ponder about.

[Zafur]

Hmm... I'm kind of unsure why people have to believe in only a Religion. Or only think that Darwinism is fact. Sorry for the messy post in advance.><

I believe in evolution. Breeding dogs from wolves, for example, is enough fact for me. Being able to create your own breeds over the years is a form of evolution, only controlled, selective, and within a much shorter time. Evolution doesn't always mean T-Rex to birds. It can be small things too. I was brought up as a Christian, however, so I believe God, or well, whatever being(s) in control of the universe decided to make evolution happen. (I'm actually in a state of reaffirming my beliefs a bit for my religion. I find other religions quite nice and tend to mismatch them together at times.) That's it. Belief in both. God makes evolution happen. The order in the Bible of Earth's creation coincides perfectly with science's theories, if you ignore the timestamps. (Besides, how exactly was the universe/world created in 6/7 days when the current solar system we use for time didn't exist yet? Unless I'm mistaken about that, a bit lazy to check at the moment.)

And to the person who said that you would refuse to believe in a God so evil as to make life and evolution a big drawn out gladiator game... Has God not made out lives a bet to the Devil? God basically said
"Hey, I betchu I'll get more followers at Judgment. You get to tempt them, and I'll try to keep them in line. If they lose and follow you, they get tortured forever."
"You're on!"
Has God not punished us severely, Noah's Ark, etc? If you believe in the Bible 100%, has it not preached hate? Pro-slavery, for one... And if you want to follow some of present day translations, encourages hate against homosexuals. I thought God was all about love?

I do not believe the Bible was meant to be taken 100% literally. I go to a Catholic school, and they teach that some things were exaggerated for emphasis, and are not to be taken literally, especially for historical happenings, but to look for the deeper meaning, at times...

I'm definitely not preaching my beliefs as proof, but I firmly believe in evolution, at least, God helping the universe start out or not. There really is just so much evidence.

Flying Spaghetti Monster, anyone? :P

[darklord]

ok Darwinism is not a religion if it was i would go crazy and to something that someone said you can make someone fall in love you just need a drug that is in the black market and someone said turn rocks to dogs that thats just weird you evolve when you species is in trouble or running out of food and further more tests have been done on yeast and they evolved to stop the thereat and what about black people they evolved to stop skin cancer from getting sun burned

[Varna]

I choose to believe that I can never trust the word of man on a subject as important as this. Anything that has ever been recorded and passed down, whether through scripture or through word of mouth, has the possibility of being a complete and utter lie.

This isn't to say I don't suspect any sort of 'supernatural' activity in the universe, for what it's worth. There may very well be all sorts of things beyond what our senses can tell us. I know only this - I think, therefore I am.

[Okami]

And the thing about free will, I do agree on one point, you cannot force love. As such, it's why I do not understand the concept of hell, and thus a large part of the bible's message. Love is... Well, love. It's unconditional. To me, the love of the Christian god is conditional, meaning you have to worship him to get into heaven. If you don't, you're going to hell. I can't see a benevolent creator saying, "hay, i luf u guaise, but imma send u 4 teh eternal torturez cuz u no praise me". It's like taking a flock of sheep, and putting them in a cage. Then, you open the cage, and tell them, "you guys have free will now!" and zapping the sheep who decide to do their own thing.


I'm not trying to hate on your beliefs, but that's how I see it. If you could enlighten me, that'd be great. :/

I understand how you see this, because I struggled throughout my childhood trying to see how a loving God could send even a technically 'good' person to hell...And I'm really sorry if I word this wrong. To me, God does not and HAS NEVER sent anyone to hell. People send themselves. Jesus said if you deny yourself and pick up your cross and follow Him, then they shall be saved.

He's not some attention-seeking God (I'm thinking of Baal here) just a man who came to show Himself that He understands our human condition and pain...He could have been born a rich king. But no, they didn't even have a place in the inn to shelter Mary when she gave birth. No, he was born in what was probably a cave, placed into a feeding trough. Jesus was escentually born into our modern-day equivelant to poverty.

And I guess what I mean is, when I say that God doesn't send a man to hell....they send themselves. All He asks is for a person to acknowledge that He understands our pain, and that He died and rose to bring us freedom from that pain. When a person refuses to do that...on the day of reckoning, Jesus will look at them and say "Go away, I never knew you." And I can only imagine the look of hurt and sorrow in His eyes when He has to say those words...

The way God works, He loves people unconditionally. He sees us in our pain and moarns with us in our sorrow. He hates seeing us burdened like this and only wishes us the best on our walk on this earth. All He wants is to help us fight, but we need to be able to accept that help. In our pride, however, so few do so. So they struggle and fight all their lives, going nowhere in the process.

It's because there was this angel...His name was Lucifer. He, in his pride, decided he wanted to be better than God. God banished him. Lucifer became a fallen angel along with his followers; when God created man in his own image, Lucifer, now Satan, hated man, because they were in the very image of God, and NOT HIM. He decided he needed to bring them down to his level. Thus, the fall of man when Adam and Eve took of the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That's the way I see it, now. Everything simply returns to the nature of pride.

The fact is, the majority of Christians are hypocrites. I won't deny it for a minute. As my pastor says "Many people get wet..." (meaning baptism) and his point is, there is no change of heart. Baptism is the acceptance of the Holy Spirit into your life to become the helper and counselor, of sorts. But so many people do it in a ritualistic way that the meaning of its symbolism becomes destroyed in the process. (water is almost always a symbol of life, I know this because we're finishing up Huck Finn in one of my classes; it's come up a lot, ok? ) It's rebirth, taking a new self. For anyone born again of Jesus Christ becomes a new creation.


Anyways, sorry if this is too offtopic for anyone. I hope I stated my point clearly enough here =/ Did I help at all, Kuo?

[wraith89]

I'd kind of like to add on to what I've said before.

Kind of like what Okami said, I have a relationship with the God and Goddess.

But, I do not feel they needed to show me that with a feat like what Christ did. They love me. I know that. The Lord and Lady are me. Wraith, what you said about no other belief system allowing you to have a personal connection with a creator is far from the truth.
Most of my time not spent at school or the computer is outside, sitting in my favourite tree, simply connecting to the God and Goddess. I feel that this world, this universe, was enough of a testament of love from them. There is beauty in everything, and there also is salvation. You do not have to accept a man who simply could just have been that, a man, whose story was poorly translated, and, well, twisted, to find love and peace. Knowledge is beautiful. There is beauty in love, trust, and hope, but also in darkness and despair. Simply letting us see the beauty that they created is enough love. If we misbehave, well, they love us, don't they? No need to get all pissy and chuck us in a lake of fire before we even know what we did wrong, and then learn and better ourselves.

Sorry for answering so late, but I really hate my bio lab

So how is your relationship with your god and goddess going then? If you ask me, from what I've seen, these religions may have a deity or deities of some kind, but for the most part, they are unknowable and unreachable... you may KNOW ABOUT your supreme being, but do you PERSONALLY know him/her? The Hindus have many gods and goddesses... but many does not always equal good. Do they personally know them? They believe in Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver and Shiva the Destroyer (their own trinity) but they have never went down to earth to tell their people that they love them and they want to have a personal relationship with them. Wouldn't having a relationship with their millions of gods (and counting) be just ridiculous? The very nature of God calls for an absolute. And then we have Islam... where we read about Allah giving these ridiculous commands and to slay the infidels and whatnot, but there's this one illiterate prophet Muhammad telling them from behind the curtains, saying he got his inspiration from Gabriel the angel. I would listen to God directly rather than have a man tell me his own experiences in a cave being taught questionable political power hungry plans to take over the world in the name of religion... all instructed from the man behind the curtains. Funny thing is, half these Muslims usually don't know what they're uttering in Arabic when they pray to Allah. And these people have a relationship with God? My God loves to hear the prayers of His people and answers them in His time. His plans are perfect and true, and did something 2000 years ago to prove that He indeed did care for us, which I'll get to in a second... so let me ask you again... do they really know their supreme being? Do(es) t(he)y respond back?

And the thing about free will, I do agree on one point, you cannot force love. As such, it's why I do not understand the concept of hell, and thus a large part of the bible's message. Love is... Well, love. It's unconditional. To me, the love of the Christian god is conditional, meaning you have to worship him to get into heaven. If you don't, you're going to hell. I can't see a benevolent creator saying, "hay, i luf u guaise, but imma send u 4 teh eternal torturez cuz u no praise me". It's like taking a flock of sheep, and putting them in a cage. Then, you open the cage, and tell them, "you guys have free will now!" and zapping the sheep who decide to do their own thing.

And the whole "Eve ate the apple of truth" thing, it makes me facepalm. Why would god be so afraid of people having knowledge? Is he really that cruel that he would have us blindly follow him? If something went wrong, which if he were omniscient he'd have known free will wasn't a good idea, couldn't he just press his reset button? Why give us powers in the name of love, and then damn us for eternity if we use them? Seriously. Love. I don't really want to be created by a jealous god who feels the need to torture and kill those who don't follow his lifestyle.

I'm not trying to hate on your beliefs, but that's how I see it. If you could enlighten me, that'd be great. :/

I see where you are confused... but of course, God did not create robots. You as well as I both know that we are not righteous. NONE of us (Romans 3:10). Everyone deserves hell... we are flawed, corrupt, rude, unloving, selfish... and that's not even half of what we are. We are just screwed up... very hypocritical. It's our fault that we're all going to hell... and we can't save ourselves from it even if we tried to by ourselves. We are ALL responsible for our sins... and EVERY sin we commit will kick back on us eventually. You thought you got away with it? Heh heh... I'm afraid not. Even Hinduism has a similar concept with karma... we all know this innately.

Fortunately for us, God has made a way for everyone to have the potential to be saved. Yes, God has sent His only begotten Son, so that ALL may be saved for those who believe in Him. That's right, ANYONE can be saved... but that's only if they simply believe. But being a Christian means you will be hated by this world... because you follow Jesus. Trust me, I KNOW how it's like. So you have committed terrible crimes and wish to be pardoned... and when you're being offered a lawyer to pardon you... and you refuse... what good is that? God is a just God... so He has NO OTHER CHOICE BUT to send you to hell. I deserve hell. You deserve hell. We all deserve it. You are being sent to hell because of YOUR own sins and YOUR own refusal of salvation. Salvation is by grace alone... and God offered you a way... it's not too late yet! God has no favorites... just because you did all these good deeds... or even if you went to church... or read the Bible, it's not going to matter. You are STILL responsible for your sins. You can ONLY be allowed into heaven if you accept God's precious gift to this world: Jesus Christ. For the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23)... and hey, we all sinned, right? Hell could not contain Jesus because He was sinless and perfect. God coming down as a human to die for OUR sins was His greatest love act of all... He took the pain and suffering WE DESERVE... just to save His precious creations. And yet... all we need to do is believe... but why can't people see that? It breaks my heart to no end.

I will share with you about the deception of Lucifer after... it's going to be a LONG topic, but he is the reason why we're all in this mess. Remind me to tell you about Lucifer... because I want to write an article about that in my upcoming website. He fell from heaven (Isaiah 14:12) just because of his pride... he wanted to be LIKE the most high... and unfortunately, he is now the god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4). The true God of this world is Jesus, and he will return. Satan's pride has led him to his downfall even when he was the most precious cherub of God (Ezekiel 28:11-19). His pride is what let to his downfall... and he subtly tried to pass on that sin to Eve when he whispered to Eve "Ye shall be like gods" when she eats the fruit (Genesis 3:5). Lucifer... the rebel. He really wasn't lying there... but he did twist the truth. You will be like god if you eat... you will KNOW good and evil. God KNOWS good and evil, HE KNOWS EVERYTHING... but what differentiates us with God is that we can't make the same decisions God makes. God makes all the right decisions for He is absolute. We, however, know what's right and wrong, but we always choose the wrong path because we can't always make the right choice. We are sinners by default... so of course we make the wrong decisions. But if you trust in God and ask Him for His advice, He will try to get you to the right path. All you need to do is listen. We will always fall short, guaranteed, but it's better than consciously making your life a mess. We have a free will, yes, and we can alter our choices and whatnot. But trying to alter the consequences is a big no-no; you NEVER go up there. Ever.

My God is of unconditional love (Agape)... or else He isn't God. Remember God must be absolute to be God... or else He isn't God. To be good, He must be ALL good. One little bit of bad goes on Him, then He is not good, and therefore isn't God. He must always tell truth, for if truth is tainted with a SMALL lie, it becomes a lie in itself. The nature of good and truth must be absolute... and if God does not follow any of those criteria, He is NOT God. However, my God has never failed... and never will. He is God... He is the absolute and for being all good, He must therefore love all good and hate all evil. The difference between us fallible humans and God is this: He loves good as much as He hates evil, while we love good and endorse evil at the same time. We cannot hate evil as much as God ever will... therefore we are subject to commit sins and will remain fallible: we are NOT gods.

The fact is, the majority of Christians are hypocrites. I won't deny it for a minute. As my pastor says "Many people get wet..." (meaning baptism) and his point is, there is no change of heart. Baptism is the acceptance of the Holy Spirit into your life to become the helper and counselor, of sorts. But so many people do it in a ritualistic way that the meaning of its symbolism becomes destroyed in the process. (water is almost always a symbol of life, I know this because we're finishing up Huck Finn in one of my classes; it's come up a lot, ok? ) It's rebirth, taking a new self. For anyone born again of Jesus Christ becomes a new creation.

Exactly how I feel... and the fact modern Bibles omit the MOST IMPORTANT part of the baptism part or cast doubt on it (see if Acts 8:37 is in your Bible or not) makes me wonder if this apostate age will ever get it right :-/

We live in the Laodicean Church times... it's going to be over soon.

And Zafur, since this topic is about creationism vs evolution, I will get to you later. I just can't seem to answer things all the time right now. I have to take a break from all this... I've been debating with people regarding these topics for so long... X_X

And yikes! Look at the time! I must head to my laboratory... I'll see you all later! @_@

[kuoleva]

You want to know how my relationship is going? Sure.

It's beyond amazing. Yes, we have many gods. But, most of us have a matron/patron god or goddess. Mine is Nyx, night personified, daughter of Chaos. My faith in her has saved me from more things than I can count. I KNOW she loves me. There didn't need to be a show, just the beauty in this world is enough. I know there are many other gods and goddesses, I simply put most of my love and trust in her. And it is the most wonderful feeling I could ever have.

I used to be Christian. I used to think god loved me. That never stopped me from swallowing that bottle of pills. THAT was a god I never felt close to. I was paranoid, afraid if I screwed up, he would get pissy and burn me in a lake of fire. Then, one summer, I just cried. For two entire months, I cried. Nothing but. I thought god hated me because my friends were Satanists and pagans. I thought he hated me because I did something wrong. I wondered why he even bothered with this world if he were just going to burn it at the revelation. After I finished my crying, and got out of the mental ward, I went outside and looked at the stars. Before, I figured being atheist would be easier, no god to worry about. When I looked into the sky, I just knew something was out there. (Here comes me sounding crazy...) I laid in the grass and closed my eyes. I heard a voice, a woman's voice. It sounded familiar, like I'd heard it a long time ago. I also saw her, in a blurry vision. I knew then I was here for a reason. I can't remember what she said, but I do remember the name "Nyx" or as I thought it was spelled, "Nix". I looked it up on the internet, and the paintings I found were almost exactly like the woman in my vision. I also found a quote I would like to get tattooed somewhere on me.

"If you take [a copy of] the Christian Bible and put it out in the wind and the rain, soon the paper on which the words are printed will disintegrate and the words will be gone. Our bible IS the wind and the rain." Herbalist Carol McGrath as told to her by a Native-American woman.

That quote rang so true to me, it almost hurt. God is... God. Humans are unreliable. The last thing I want to turn to for the word of god is a book written by humans. Like I said, I believe the love of the Lord and Lady is best spread in things untouched by humans. I don't need a book to tell me my god and goddess love me.

To the Lucifer thing, again, why is god so freaking jealous? I mean, come on, he's GOD. He has god powers. If he has to worry about being taken over by his own creation, he's pretty pathetic. Couldn't he just give Lucifer a slap on the wrist? I've been told there is only love and happiness in heaven, that somehow god takes away the pain. First off, that's hardly possible. Without hate, there is no love. Without war, there is no peace. Secondly, couldn't he just use the ability to make us like that on Lucifer? Or the entire world? Wait, that would be taking away free will, which he seems to do in heaven. If there is free will, there will be pain, hate, anger, loneliness, and other unsavory emotions. I've been told those things will be "taken off the menu" in heaven. Again, that would be taking away free will. Then why were we given it in the first place? I'd insert my sheep analogy in here again, but my hand is cramping.

Also, I believe in reincarnation. I do NOT believe the actions and mistakes made in one lifetime are enough to judge the worth of a soul. Which brings me back to the "love me or die" concept of the Christian god. You said it's free will, all we have to do is believe. What if I would rather praise a loving goddess than an angry, jealous god? What if I don't trust words written by humans? Will I burn because of that? Seriously? I believe my Lord and Lady know that love is love, no matter if it's directed at Allah, Buddha, Krishna, Kali, Freyja, Loki, Arduinna, Nyx, Zeus, Aphrodite... You get my point.

And don't get me started on the whole "my god is better than your god" crap most Christians pull on me. :/

[Okami]

God never stopped me from taking a razorblade to my wrists.

It's called life, we have to learn to deal with it. Sometimes we deal with it in the wrong ways, obviously.

[wraith89]

I used to be Christian. I used to think god loved me. That never stopped me from swallowing that bottle of pills. THAT was a god I never felt close to. I was paranoid, afraid if I screwed up, he would get pissy and burn me in a lake of fire.

I don't know what God you're talking about, but that is NOT the God that I know :-/
And I don't believe people used to be a Christian. If you were really a Christian then you would have never left that faith, I'm sure.

As for the swallowing the bottle of pills... we all make stupid choices... but would you blame God for that? He's not stopping you from anything if you're intending on doing so anyways. He could... but He doesn't.

To the Lucifer thing, again, why is god so freaking jealous? I mean, come on, he's GOD. He has god powers. If he has to worry about being taken over by his own creation, he's pretty pathetic. Couldn't he just give Lucifer a slap on the wrist? I've been told there is only love and happiness in heaven, that somehow god takes away the pain. First off, that's hardly possible. Without hate, there is no love. Without war, there is no peace. Secondly, couldn't he just use the ability to make us like that on Lucifer? Or the entire world? Wait, that would be taking away free will, which he seems to do in heaven. If there is free will, there will be pain, hate, anger, loneliness, and other unsavory emotions. I've been told those things will be "taken off the menu" in heaven. Again, that would be taking away free will. Then why were we given it in the first place? I'd insert my sheep analogy in here again, but my hand is cramping.

Angels are completely different creatures from humans. I don't have all the answers, but I believe angels, although more powerful than we are, are more fragile in a way that once they make a mistake, they can NEVER correct it (hence fallen angels).

The very definition of heaven is perfection... why couldn't such a place exist? Obviously not here in this world... but to get there, you have to earn it. But since we all fall short, we depend on the one opportunity God gave us to reach there... it's only a matter of our choice to accept that.

Yes, God could have made everything just as perfect as heaven is, but then again, would we learn anything like that? EVERYTHING happens for a reason, don't forget. There are NO accidents, even if it seems like it is. You only have the power to make a choice, but you can never change the consequences. God knows what He is doing... we just don't see it the way He does (Isaiah 55:8). If He seeks a genuine relationship, there needs to be sacrifices. We CHOOSE to love, He won't ever MAKE us love Him. If you hate Him so much then do as you will... but that doesn't mean it's right. Think about it.

Also, I believe in reincarnation. I do NOT believe the actions and mistakes made in one lifetime are enough to judge the worth of a soul. Which brings me back to the "love me or die" concept of the Christian god. You said it's free will, all we have to do is believe. What if I would rather praise a loving goddess than an angry, jealous god? What if I don't trust words written by humans? Will I burn because of that? Seriously? I believe my Lord and Lady know that love is love, no matter if it's directed at Allah, Buddha, Krishna, Kali, Freyja, Loki, Arduinna, Nyx, Zeus, Aphrodite... You get my point.

The Bible begs to differ; 2 Timothy 3:16 says these are the Words of God... preserved throughout the years. I would love to show you that these words are indeed inspired by the living God, but not right now.

And again, you put God in a negative light by saying He is an angry and jealous God... but you haven't seen the other facet. What seems to be evil is actually His love... perhaps you don't realize it.

Reincarnation? Why would anyone want to live in this disgusting world again? You've seen this world once... you don't like it... why live here again? :-/

Allah? The moon god of war and belligerence? Loki? The god of mischief? Zeus? The womanizer? Aphrodite? The seductive promiscuous lusty girl? I don't know what you're thinking, but if those are my gods, I would just kill myself right now... I can't find any good qualities in them that matches YHWH... they fail in comparison.

Sorry if I went polemic on you but that is what I believe. And this time I tried to make it short so that people would stop giving up reading my entire wall of texts @_@

Let's get back to Creation vs Evolution, not about religion and whatnot :P

[kuoleva]

/facepalm Again, WRITTEN BY HUMANS. I could write a book and say it's the word of god. You couldn't deny it if you don't deny the fact that the bible was written by humans. Nobody seems to get it, people lie. NOTHING written by humans can be trusted. I despise when people use the bible as a crutch. Just because a book says so, does not mean it's true.

About reincarnation, you said god wants people to learn? Maybe I want to COME BACK and learn. I've seen one side of it, once. I haven't seen how people live in China, Finland, or even across the road. There is so much more to the world that I wouldn't be able to see in this life alone.

I'm going to start sounding rude here, but I'm tired and in a bad mood from earlier today. >.<

Maybe you are the ones not realizing his "love" is anger. What seems to be love is actually his evil... Perhaps you just don't realize it. No, we don't see things the way god does. But, honestly, I wish god would see it the way we do. Again with the question you keep dodging, why give us free will, then punish us eternally for it? Maybe I'm just blind, but really, I see no love in a lake of fire. "hay guiase i luff u but imma burn u cuz u no tell me u luf me, kthxbai". Apparently, YOU haven't seen the other facet. You talk about Allah being an angry god. Indeed, he is, but have you read your old testament lately? Been stoning some prostitutes have you? Where is the love in THAT? I know many people have twisted it and such, but groups like "God Hates Fags" make me sick to my stomach. And you know what? They read their bibles. They're doing what god apparently told them to: kill anyone different.

Oh, and Aphrodite was, and to me still is, a VERY powerful creator goddess. She was turned into the "sex fiend" when Greek society became patriarchal instead of matriarchal.

I don't mean to offend, but that is what I believe. I have Christian friends, they're all nice and fine, but really. I wish some people would open their eyes and realize following a book isn't very healthy. Although I do believe that anything that makes you do good in this world is healthy, groups like God Hates Fags make me want to become a serial killer. x.x It might just be my bad experiences have made me scared, literally being threatened with stoning or burning at the stake does not bode well for one's psyche. And I do mean literally, they even had the match out. :/ No, I wouldn't report them, they're very good at playing innocent. Maybe I should call the ACLU.



Back OT, I'm for a combo. ;P

[Enkidu]

Ok so, what the hell? Most of these posts aren't even addressing the OP's question.

The exact same way theists think that Christian creation and religion "gives meaning" to life and is a deep and complex affair, is exactly how people like me also perceive the theory of Evolution ( and please don't rationalize it as Darwin vs Creationism ) The entire system of information and classification that makes up what the current theory of evolution is is not something that can be sum'd up in a mere 2 pages on some forum. The data acquired and used to prove that there is a high % that evolution is correct ( yes, not 100% prove the theory as truth ) spans hundreds of thousands of tests, hundreds of years of research, the life works of more than 100 scientists and the time/carbon/radioactive dating on millions of preserved fossils and the like.

In the same way you guys are saying that Evolution doesn't make sense ( from what seems to me is a clear lack of understanding of the information that was used in order to sum up this "theory" in a line or two that people seem to rip apart. ) Creation doesn't fit together perfectly either. Your essentially taking the Hegelian system of rationalization and taking out everything that helps it make sense and at the same time trying to weigh an incomplete assertion against ( one that most of you obviously agree with anyway ) a simple, faith based one.

Soren Kierkegaard anyone?

Do you know what Irks me though? That despite the fact that all of these religious organizations say things like " We have to believe 100% in the bible " that they still judge man on earth and shout obscenities, hateful messages and threats of death when they themselves repeatedly remind you that it is only gods right to judge man. That despite all of these things that people under the guise of "religion" do, because they believe in god and Jesus they can get away with saying and unfortunately doing whatever they want. While normal people who live good lives, even by their standards will "buuurn in hell" simply because their beliefs on something intangible and incomprehensible by the human mind differ.

[foibles]

So we all know that somehow this world we all live in today, the entire universe came to be. The complexities of everything right down to mitosis all had to happen somehow. So how do you think that it happened. Darwin's theory has something to do with ooze that became X which became X which became X which became X and so on and then X turned into us or humans. The bible states that God created everything in 6 days on the 7th day he rested. I think those are the two main ones on the subject of creation. Please post your opinion and back up your answer...now for mine...

Right into your first paragraph you have already shown that you know nothing about evolution. Ya for you. The way life (in all acceptable probability) started off is carbon forming bonds with other elements to form what we call organic compounds. Some of these compounds formed the various building blocks of life (deoxy ribonucleic acid and ribonucleic acid to name a few) these molecules mutated over time and the organisms around them started to change (because proteins are the final manifestation of genes)

You see I believe in the bible. I think it makes more sense and I believe the bible to be 100% truth. The actual probability that over billions and billions of years the universe fell into the precise location it lies in is just inprobable. The actual idea that over billions of years the earth formed into the exact location it is now in order to sustain life. If our planet was just a little bit off where it is now life would be unable to exist! The actual theory that life came from inanimate ooze that was zapped by who knows what is just well 0.

First of all, the universe is not in an "exact position". It is a well known and well documented fact that, one: the universe and bodies withing the universe (galaxy clusters, nebulae, etc...) are constantly moving, and two: the universe is expanding constantly. And the idea that one planet out of many (there are an estimated 70 sextillion (or 7x10^22) stars in the universe, and it is safe to assume that many of them have more then one planet, even if we can not see them well) having the capability to support life is completely plausible, seeing as as we can see it right now there are probably two main necessities for life, those necessities being a heat/electromagnetic radiation emitting energy source, and dihydrogen monoxide. And I think I already discussed why your "opinion" about "inanimate ooze" is complete and utter BS.

The scientists that back this thing say that miracles are impossible because they dont see it and it is not able to be replicated. Well....what about your ooze! Did you see it? "well know it was X years ago no one was around..." is it able to be replicated? "Well know it is a once in an existance thing it can only happen once..." well then you are incorrect by your own basis.

It can and it has been replicated to an extent, under circumstances that were vary much like what was on early earth. The other thing is that miracles don't happen in the first place, which is why they cannot be replicated.

Well you know how they say that the ooze goes to X and then X well then how come there is not a single legit fossil record of a transspecies creature? Your answer-because they dont exist. The whole theory in my opinion is nonsense and the guy who made it up and his offspring are now filthy rich because of it and because of money no one is able to stop them.

For one thing it is easy to see evolution happening today. Some bacteria reproduce so quickly that you can literally SEE them evolving. You don't need a fossil record to prove that, when its happening under your very eyes. Also were you aware that there have been many religions that have only been enormous money making schemes? (The most notable one being the catholic church.)

There are a lot of wholes in the theory and the earth does not top 10000 years of age. The bible has the answers and I believe to be the greatest historical record in the history of man kind. The whole evolution thing just has to many wholes to believe in. Ok, there is my argument. Now what do you say?

Lets clear something up here. many of the facts in the bible have been PROVEN to be 100% wrong. For example, lets look at the jew's escape from Egypt. Not only was one man parting a huge lake a physical impossibility at the time, but after the Jews got away from egypt, they went from city to city. The catch? Many of these cities did not exist simultaneously. The whole thing about them conquering the "holy land"? Archeological records show that they Jews were an ingenious group in the so called "holy land" one of the things that actually set them apart the earliest is their practice of not eating pork, as is evidenced by the lack of pig bones in ancient Jewish fire pits, in contrast to those of other natives. So now you're probably asking yourself: "why would you make up a big story like that anyway?" Well, do you know how you claimed land back then? You conquered it. Claiming to have taken the holy land by force was as good as a title deed for the Jews. The entire thing looks like it was put together by a whole bunch of not very well informed theologians. It was.

That's me answer earth, is placed perfectly, if it's a tiny bit near the sun, we would all burn up, and if earth was a little bit further, we would all freeze, i think it's strange, that the ooze, or whatever, thought of an idea of putting the earth there, i know it's God's doing.

Already been discussed

If you have visited church, people are getting saved, either emotionally, or physically, like last Sunday, we had an Healing Service, and this one boy, he was deaf at birth, or something, which made him have to use a hearing aid, when it was his turn to get prayed for, and healed, the pastor shouted to take off his hearing aids, thus the pastor, and everyone around started praying, and the boy asks his mum why are people so loud, and his mum started crying.

You know there is a possibility that he had ear damage at birth, or that there was some mutation in some homeotic gene that caused delayed hearing development. I would explain this now, but I don't feel the need to unless you really want to know what I'm talking about.

there has been numerous cases where the patient is healed, and the doctors are fumbling trying to figure out, like once there was a guy he was due to die from cancer like a week away, and when he asked for the prayer request, he miraculously healed, the doctor's were astonished, there wasn't any trace of Cancer left.

Cancer can die too you know. The other thing is that this kind of thing is often nothing more then urban legend, and thus should be taken with a grain of salt. But trust me, the laws of physics are not violated in normal hospitals

I believe wholeheartedly in the truth of Genesis.

This is not simply some religion for me. In fact, I don't follow a religion. I am a Christ-follower, a Christian as they may call them, in a very personal, very spiritual sense. It is my being and my everything.

This thing I have with God, it's a relationship. A real, true and powerful, intimate love relationship. Think of a newlywed man and woman, the passion they feel for each other and the zeal they have for life. That is me to my Lord and Saviour, Jesus.

In other words, this thing you have is a bunch of more or less arbitrary chemical and electronic signals in an organ that is the direct result of millions of years of genetic mutations. You are incredible my friend. One other thing: I really don't know how many newlywed people you have met, but all of my experinces with them have involved a LOT of sex (AKA hormonal action). Are you trying to say that you have a hormonal/sexual relationship with someone you can't see, feel, touch, or any other evidence of existence?

He was this guy who healed broken lives, and I have felt this healing in my life. He humbly laid His life down, and gave Himself to men to die an excruciating death on a Roman cross. And then, three days later, rose. Conquering death. He proved to even His own doubting disciples who He was, once again. Amazing.

have I not already discussed why the bible should be taken with a grain of salt? Try finding anything about Jesus' rebirth in roman records from that time, trust me, you will NOT find any.

That is Genesis. Birth. Death. Restoration.

genesis: physical impossibility. Birth: AKA sexual reproduction, a simple biological process. Death: cells ceasing to function. Restoration: In the case of rebirth, another physical impossibility.

God said let there be light, and there was light. Universe. One spoke word.
"Uni" = One and "Verse" = spoken word.

What does this even mean?

That is what I simply believe, nothing less. The signs are everywhere, His fingerprints detailed in our very blood. Nothing anyone could ever say will change this for me, because I simply know it is true, it screams it in my heart and in my mind. There's no going back. I am His. :]

This screams heroin addict to me. I have met them so I would know too.

only posting this down here so that the thing will let me post!

[Okami]

/facepalm Again, WRITTEN BY HUMANS. I could write a book and say it's the word of god. You couldn't deny it if you don't deny the fact that the bible was written by humans. Nobody seems to get it, people lie. NOTHING written by humans can be trusted. I despise when people use the bible as a crutch. Just because a book says so, does not mean it's true.

Yes. You're absolutely correct. The Bible was absolutely written by humans. The Holy Spirit is basically in charge of working through humans, and that is how God's Word is communicated effectively through broken, sinful creatures like us humans. It is written by humans so it can be understood by humans.
Here's an example. Look at the Ten Commandments.
Exodus 20: 1-17, New Living Translation

Spoiler

1 Then God gave the people all these instructions

2 “I am the Lord your God, who rescued you from the land of Egypt, the place of your slavery.

3 “You must not have any other god but me.

4 “You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea.

5 You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected—even children in the third and fourth generations of those who reject me.

6 But I lavish unfailing love for a thousand generations on those who love me and obey my commands.

7 “You must not misuse the name of the Lord your God. The Lord will not let you go unpunished if you misuse his name.

8 “Remember to observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

9 You have six days each week for your ordinary work,
10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath day of rest dedicated to the Lord your God. On that day no one in your household may do any work. This includes you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, your livestock, and any foreigners living among you.

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.

12 “Honor your father and mother. Then you will live a long, full life in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

13 “You must not murder.

14 “You must not commit adultery.

15 “You must not steal.

16 “You must not testify falsely against your neighbor.

17 “You must not covet your neighbor’s house. You must not covet your neighbor’s wife, male or female servant, ox or donkey, or anything else that belongs to your neighbor.”

(I'm breaking it down for my own personal use here)

The four of the first five commandments are spoken directly by God. In the first person, I mean, but Moses is telling the people these just as God told to him. The people cannot handle it, and so Moses switches to third person.

If the entire Bible was written directly by God it would scare the living hell right out of us. We would be so afraid of a Being that powerful, that we'd basically be brainwashed by our fear into worship. God doesn't want that, He wants us to choose for ourselves on exactly who we believe He is.

What's the quote I'm thinking of by CS Lewis, guys? Help me out here.
It's right there at the tip of my tongue...something about Jesus was either crazy, something, something, or that He was who He said He was. Grah, I can't think of the actual quote...

Other favorites by CS Lewis, though:

"God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: it is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world."

"Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you find that you have excluded life itself."

And, of course, me being a Narnia nut
"'Safe?' said Mr. Beaver...'Who said anything about safe? 'Course he isn't safe. but he's good. He's the King, I tell you.'"

Oh, and Foibles, you are the incredible one here. All I can do is sit here and ROFL in amazement that you would say such things in response to my reality.

[pokemonfan]

Darwin is not known for his ideas on the creation of the universe, at least get that part straight before you make a debate thread.

1.Based on what I've seen so far (I have not read everything) I think I should rename the thread does anyone know how I can do that?
2. Ultimate wall of text! Its super effective (sorry but I just loved that joke)
3. for this thread I'm going to have to set apart some quality reading time to read everything.
4. I never thought this thread would generate so much discussion. Not that lots of people have posted its more like the many walls of texts countered by other text walls.