Smogon Debate Thread.This is mostly just a discussion topic. It really isn't to get us anywhere, but to allow us to vent our beliefs on this particular subject. Participate if you feel like it. Since this debate will likely take opinion into question, and since people tend to become defensive when their beliefs are under fire, I want to take now to remind you all to try and avoid letting emotions rise. This is a civilized debatey thing.
The above, is more or less how the debate was proceeding; however, it was off-topic there, so I moved it here. The second spoiler is my most recent reply, so with that, carry on.Gin edit:
Remember. Flaming of other fansites and/or other users will NOT be tolerated. Be careful in this thread: I WILL infract without a warning if you flame!
Don't be afraid to post your viewpoint, however.
Last edited by Gin; Sep 2nd, 2010 at 11:17 PM.
Personally I don't wanna go posting too much I think i said my bit on the other thread really. However, something you said has caught my eye so I'll debate this point whi'cha
The problem isn't really a matter of caring. I mean, do you really think a lot of people cared for some of the pokemon that they used. I sure as hell don't care for registeel but I use him a lot. And the same can be said for things like lanturn and forretress.The thing here, is that Victreebell and Ninetails don't see a lot of action. Not a whole lot of people care enough to use them; HOWEVER, if you feel that there are other viable sets, then you are more than welcome to register for an account there, and following the proper procedures, submit a new set. If it is indeed viable (you will need to prove it as such) they will post it up on the site.
We are shown great sets out of a select few pokemon that are shown little more interest to, so we all use them, because they have been written about. But then when it comes to pokemon like victreebel and nintales, we see two/three mediocre sets and think 'bleh I'll move on to the next pokemon.' I mean, if there was a huge ass article with a lot of different sets then these pokemon would get more of a looking, and these niche spots that they can provide wouldn't be so hard to find because these pokemon got given the same treatment as the top 10 on the OU board.
Of course there is always the problem of "this pokemon can't do ANYTHING" ... I don't expect a pokemon like magikarp to be given a 10 page essay on different ways it can use tackle. But when there is such a vast movepool as that of victreebel (Teeter dance + stun spore/ Sleep powder + swords dance/ Two high attack stats that could work with a scarf/ stockpile... etc etc)
In all honesty, I am thankful for smogon... I would still be flat on my arse if it wasn't for their articles. However, in the starting phases I just used what had a lot of writing behind it. Because let's face it, if it has a tonne of writing it has to be more important. I think new players shouldn't be brain washed by this, I don't mean to say smogon as a site is a huge propaganda nazi spewing machine, simply that by the way they write they attract people to certain sets more than others, when these sets might niot help the individual, and if the indivdual is a noob, how is he to know this?
But then I guess that leads to the argument that if they can learn from these mistakes it'll make them better battlers, and that frankly noobs shouldn't be spoon fed EVERYTHING.
I dunno, I think more care and attention should be given to those pokes that aren't as high on the laderboard, this way new counters and sweepers are found for a much more diverse metagame.
Good Lord... slow down! Let me break this down bits by bits...
Don't forget Recover on Gastrodon... now that Quagsire got it they're two stiff competition for each other, except Gastro has Stockpile and stuff like that while Quagsire can recover from water moves. Swampert has none of that, so it prevents them from being COMPLETELY outclased. Of course, the niche of any Pokemon is what's the important thing. But I read from Smogon... a top mod wrote "why should anyone use a Pokemon if this other Pokemon does it better?" Most people agreed to that statement. What about for the sake of having a more diverse metagame? I don't know?Believe it or not, the admins of Smogon say the same thing. An example, if you will. Gastrodon is outclassed by swampert in almost every sense of the word. Yet, Gastrodon has a barely passable Stockpile set that makes it unique. (It's got other stuff now i'm pretty sure, but for this time period, stockpile was the ----). The elites over at Smogon say that this Stockpile set would be perfectly fine to use in an OU metagame, So long as it fills a particular niche in your team, and isn't gimmicky to the point of failure So if you have a Seaking, and you can find a way to make it work on your team, USE IT! It's actually recommended. I mean, everyone usualy knows what to do with Gyarados, but if they see Seaking, they'll be all WTFMate? What do I with this. (This can also bait your opponent into making a bad move, if you can make them believe you're a bad player)
Did I say it's the fault of Smogon? You're taking it out of context. I did acknowledge it wasn't really the fault of Smogon but rather the players who rather take it dogmatically.I fail to see how it is the fault of smogon, if noobs are running around with illegal move spreads. I'm pretty sure in most of the articles, they post reasons why certain moves aren't paired together. (How broken would blissey be if it could have Wish, 3rd gen tutor move, and aromatherapy, 4th gen egg move)
Did I ever say I thought everyone was perfect? Let me make my position clear. I hate standardization, I hate uncreativity, I hate all of that. But at the same time, I am not really here to bash Smogon for what they do. Smogon is helpful, as I have stated, in multiple areas. I prefer the Sleep Clause and Evasion Clause and the likes. If you read my argument, I blame the majority of the players in the end for creating this mess of "standard" sets and "don't use this and you suck".Smogon has since rectified this. They now have 3 layers of building a set Step 1) The proposal Step2) Peer review, concise and corrections Step3) Peer edit for spelling errors etc. Regardless, No-one is perfect. If you think that, you're a fool. It is up to those who wish to use a set to double check why these things are done. If you can't spot an error such as Spa on a Atk set, shame on you. If you do spot an error, report it.
I'll tell you that I was one of them... someone who just took the first set from every Pokemon at Smogon and pasted them and tried them out. Okay, so they worked, but nothing felt diverse. I hated fighting that Lucario who ALWAYS did the same thing by SD + Extremespeed, etc... it was boring. It's what standardization does. So what I did was during the early PP Shoddy times I had people in PP run Specs Lucario all over. The newcomers in PP Shoddy came in, fought the Lucarios the PPers had... and funnily enough, nobody expected it. In fact, nowadays, can you expect much else other than a physical Lucario? I didn't think so. It can be quite amusing to catch your opponent off guard with Pokemon with vast movepools.
Depends. Subpunching set can also be the Sub + Spore + two attacks set. Subseed has seed replacing one of the moves, and Focus Punch often being kept, and are tailored to be more bulkier than the former. Well, to be fair, they can be considered the same thing. For SD, expect a counter and you can Spore one. It may not always work, but either way, Breloom is quite hated upon for many reasons... much for Spore.Sub seeding is often the same as sub puncing. SD set is alright, but Brelooms counters will still counter the hell out of you. In fact, you make it easier for most of them.
Victreebel and Ninetales. Your failure to spell their name kinda shows your neglect for them. Just saying... and not to be offensive, but that seems to be the mood of most competitive players :/The thing here, is that Victreebell and Ninetails don't see a lot of action. Not a whole lot of people care enough to use them; HOWEVER, if you feel that there are other viable sets, then you are more than welcome to register for an account there, and following the proper procedures, submit a new set. If it is indeed viable (you will need to prove it as such) they will post it up on the site.
It's not that people don't care much about it. I can say the same thing to some OU Pokemon... I don't really care for most of them. I use many of the Pokemon I don't care about... but because they're useful. I mean, Ninetales has some useful things in its movelist... I don't see how it can only be set with like 3 movesets. Pain Split, Calm Mind, Substitute, Will-o-Wisp, Confuse Ray, Grudge, it has a lot of support movepool too. Of course, people neglect Pokemon like this because it isn't even mentioned too much. They just see it as another "6/252/252" fodder. Whee. Defensive Ninetales can work. I mean, look at that 100 base special defense... gotta be worth something you know? Poor physical def? Hi Will-o-Wisp! All sorts of viable sets can work I'm sure...
Okay, I won't say make a page giving Unown 17 sets with different Hidden Power, but almost every Pokemon can work had they been given the chance. But like I said, due to this higher metagame with the big boys cutting the line for lunch, who gets the lunch? And who's Pidgeot? Who's Carnivine? Why don't we see them more often? Not because they completely suck, but because the spotlight is headed too much on what is labeled "OU". They're OU so they must be good... er okay? I mean, there are so many misinterpretation of OU that most people think only those branded "OU" can compete in standard... and since it's "UU" or "NU" that automatically means they fail or are outclassed by something in OU. I can't say it's completely true.
I didn't really join Smogon's website, so I can't really recommend anything to them. I was thinking that due to their genius, they'd figure out sooner or later, you know? But you tell them about this Victreebel and they'll all scratch their heads wondering what that is.
I had to point this out when you said "Psychic isn't a viable move". That's all.This is a niche role, it benefits your team, so is perfectly fine. I said it wasn't really recommended, not that it should never be used. Afterall, I could say fire types aren't recommended do to flash fire, rocks, and water types, but most people still use them, simply because their useful, in many situations.
Lucky on one occasion... but nonetheless, it worked at some points. It's definitely not orthodox, but its movepool is good and quite easily abusable. 60 Base Special Attack is not good at all, but it's not absolutely unusable. Still, wouldn't recommend it. Special Gyarados can be pulled off by other means though, if you can successfully pass at least one Nasty Plot or maybe two (doubt it), you can unleash a monster in your hands. Like I said, not unorthodox, but *almost* anything can work as long as they have the tools to do so. Okay, I tried Special Sneasel to no avail in Gen III... and I'm well aware of their PEMN idea, but who's to say it can't work just because it can't in theory?Yes Specs gyara will never work, you got lucky on one occasion. I've never seen scyther's stats or movepools, so i can't judge the validity of that. as for the rest of the gyara, nobody said there was only one to play gyara. Smogon includes multiple sets for a reason, it is everyone else who uses Gyara, simply because it is one of the best roles gyara can fill. Bulkygyara, is cool. Rest Talking is a horrid strategy and I will never use. Reason; you have a 1/3 chance of not doing anything at all. 2/3 if your opponent is immune to one of your moves. Pure sleep talking, as a counter to sleepers, is okay imo, but pure sleeptalking is pointless.
Scyther is even worse. 55 SpA... but with Technician and some special moves, it can be an unexpected attack to things that pump their defenses in the physical area. But an interesting gimmick nonetheless, and a surprise to those Forretress expecting to wall a Scyther and set up on it. And no, I don't encourage impractical sets, but I do encourage people to try something different for once. I do use what people call "standard sets"... sometimes with a bit of a twist in it, not for the sake of being different, but for the sake of it working to accomplish a goal for the team.
You may not like Resttalk, but it does not disqualify the usefulness of it. It has its ups and downs. I won't argue about its cons, it's well noted and puts you down when you don't want it to, but if you haven't noticed, almost everybody thinks "Dragon Dance" when they see Gyarados. They don't have to, you know... but can we help it anymore?
You've got my perspective. The metagamers... the elitists... and the idiots... they make it too similar... too standard. Same sets being spammed all over... too many holes in a team just because they took standard sets and smacked them into one team and called it a team. That's not how it should go. If you're not with them, you either join them, or just flat out uncared about. Just don't misunderstand me... I'll say it again, I'm not against Smogon. I'm not against their strategy dex. I hate what people have turned it into.You're right, it isn't smogons fault. They just offered suggestions to what to use, because they are good strategies, while trying to balance out the game as much as possible.
Pretty much this...Originally Posted by Tbird
Project Pokemon is:
PP Rules / FAQ / Inquiries / NO CHEATING / BBTags Guide / Anonymous BBS
Guides I Have Written
Competitive Battling Basics / Pokemon Black and White In-Game Movesets / Pokemon Black and White In-Game Battles / Gen IV Ability ID
My Competitive Teams
Divine Rights (Gen V) / Prometheus (Gen V) / Gloria in Excelsis (Gen IV) / Samson Agonistes (Gen IV) / Team Megaman (Gen IV)
aRyuujin on LoL NA
aRyuujin.546 on SCII NA
@Wraith: I want you to go look at their page for Unknown, as I'm pretty sure that's exactly what they've done (Just not with every type, they only hit the big ones like Electric/Ice/Fighting etc.) What I mean to say by "Caring" is they take a look at it's stats, and say "Okay, this thing is a sweeper, here's the movepool for it, moving on." They look at registeel "Holy balls this thing is bulky, and it gets curse? Winget" Due to this a lot of Pokemon end up getting screened that actually have viable sets, but that's why you can go onto their site and post them. As a newbie you can bet their going to shoot a lot of crap at you, attempting to prove that your set sucks, but if your set is actually viable, then you should have absolutely no problem defending it to the point of at least getting someone to take notice of it's validity. People have "Turned into" that because their lazy. Face, it Smogon weren't around, we'd still have standardized metagame because some pokemon are simply flat-out better than others, but the smart players ignore standardization, they build teams that are good against Pokemon as a whole, not against certain sets. If I make a team specifically designed to counter Tyranitar, Scizor, Heatran, Lucario, Gliscor, Suicune, and my opponent brings in a Dragonite, well have fun, and good luck. The majority of course fall for that trap, but it's not smogons fault really, Smogon just provides the information. It is the players who choose what to use. (and yes, some of their mods are really bad battlers) Lastly, I never get Ninetales right, I always figured it was tails because it has nine of them. Same goes for Victreebel, I assumed it was bell because of it's body shape, it's not that I don't care, it's just that i never paid attention to the spelling of their names.
@Gin:I want to start by saying, no, I have NEVER gotten beat by a Crocune. As soon as I see suicune, I just bring in a physical attack, preferably one who resists water, and start spamming my physical moves. 2/3 times it will do nothing, my attacks will keep doing the same thing, while he struggles with his 1/3d chance to do anything at all. As for Heatran, point taken. The Smogon being self-centric bit is true, but if you work hard on it somebody will notice it at least has some merit, and may take a closer look. I think the reason Smogon doesn't include those mechanics, is because they have articles on them, and they expect people to actually read them, lol.
Btw Wraith, I wanted to personaly thank you for that ninetales set. I mmade a bulky variant, with WoW, Toxic, Extrasensory, and Flamethrower. It quite literaly won me the battle in the tournament. Thank you for that.
Last edited by Sabeta; Sep 4th, 2010 at 02:54 AM.