Water Vs Fire!!

[pokemonfan]

Ok, there has always been this age long debate about which is better. Now, in relation to pokemon which types are better water types or fire types. Forget the fact that water types can own fire types naturally (I'm bias towards water) and please back up your reasoning. I personally like the water types.

Water: Cool calm and collected. Somewhat like me although not always.
Fire:Hot, furious, and uncontrollable. Not something I look for in a pokemon.

Piplup, squirtle, mudkip, and totodile are all absolutely adorable.
Gyarados is amazingly cool looking and strong
Floatzel is so fast and buizel is cute
aqua jet, hydropump, surf, and hydro cannon are some of the coolest moves!
Water pokemon own!
I've always been bias towards water anything. If ever it was elements my fave was always water.

Back up your decision!
Help your side win the age long battle between water and fire!

[Greencat]

Water can put out fires. Water doesn't need anything to "stay" there, unlike fire where it needs to consume something flammable. Fire is also a form of energy and can boil water, but water eventually turns to a cloud and rains down. So it depends.

[pokemonfan]

I'm talking about pokemon, like infernape over X water type something like that. What pokemon sways you to prefer fire over water or what pokemon swerves you to prefer water over fire then back up your reasoning. I know that water would naturally destroy fire but I'm talking pokemon...

[wraith89]

Water types because they're better aesthetically... although I say Ninetales looks better than some of the other water Pokemon. Also, water Pokemon are almost necessary in anyone's team... they support, heal, sweep... they play so many roles... as opposed to fire, which is just hit and sweep... just don't get hit... but just hit and sweep.

[HottSushiz]

Fire:Hot, furious, and uncontrollable. Not something I look for in a pokemon.

Well if you have ever watch Avatar: Legend of Aang book: Fire
you would of known that Fire isn't actually suppose to be used like that Fire can also be used as art or warmth even survival it's what people's actions that give Fire a bad name

Hmm Water, or Fire, it depends, sometimes Fire can be so hot like White colored Fire, could probably evaporate Water, but Water can put it out, depending on intensity of the flames, like in some cases, water can even make the flames bigger.

[Greencat]

Well, I have more favorite Water Type (Or related to water [Lugia]) Pokemon, so I choose Water. :)
Manaphy, Kyogre, Lugia, Metagross and Jirachi are my favorite Pokemon. 3/5 Associate with water. :)

[damio]

I'm going to go with fire.
There are some certain pokemon that I just need to vote for. (Thyphlosion :kikkoman:)

[pokemonfan]

Well if you have ever watch Avatar: Legend of Aang book: Fire
you would of known that Fire isn't actually suppose to be used like that Fire can also be used as art or warmth even survival it's what people's actions that give Fire a bad name

Hmm Water, or Fire, it depends, sometimes Fire can be so hot like White colored Fire, could probably evaporate Water, but Water can put it out, depending on intensity of the flames, like in some cases, water can even make the flames bigger.


I've seen the show (actually all the episodes) and that is just well ridiculous. Fire is destructive and powerful nothing more. However, I guess if used correctly....I still choose water katara's water bending was really cool and water type pokemon are awesome!

[darklord]

i said water because i have no fire typs in pearl well 1

[Doc]

im voting fire because there are millions (well lots anyway) of water pokemon, fire can take down steels which seem to be quite popular, theres no added effect that is purely water type, fire has burn, will o whisp/burns can eat through a team that is not prepared for it, ive found that most people prefer other pokemon and fire seem a bit neglected and therefore some people may not prepare there teams accordingly.

yes ok waters own fires, but fires own grass and grass own waters, its all balanced out so personal preference is what its all about here.

LONG LIVE FIRES!

[Torte de Lini]

Ok, there has always been this age long debate about which is better. Now, in relation to pokemon which types are better water types or fire types. Forget the fact that water types can own fire types naturally (I'm bias towards water) and please back up your reasoning. I personally like the water types.

Water: Cool calm and collected. Somewhat like me although not always.
Fire:Hot, furious, and uncontrollable. Not something I look for in a pokemon.

Piplup, squirtle, mudkip, and totodile are all absolutely adorable.
Gyarados is amazingly cool looking and strong
Floatzel is so fast and buizel is cute
aqua jet, hydropump, surf, and hydro cannon are some of the coolest moves!
Water pokemon own!
I've always been bias towards water anything. If ever it was elements my fave was always water.

Back up your decision!
Help your side win the age long battle between water and fire!

"Water: Cool calm and collected. Somewhat like me although not always.
Fire:Hot, furious, and uncontrollable. Not something I look for in a pokemon."

These adjectives aren't fire and water, but use Fire and water as symbols to represent them.

To me that's an invalid argument.

[empoleonmikel]

i like water type pokemon. but comparing them to fire is quite unfair to fire, as we all know that fire is weak to water. and of course, it does not mean that fire is weak since fire have advantages to some other types that water lacks.. because in the poke world, it's a circular balance... just like the classic "rock-paper-scissors".. it's like comparing "scissors" against "paper", water being the "scissors" :) that's my POV, just sharing :)

[wraith89]

i like water type pokemon. but comparing them to fire is quite unfair to fire, as we all know that fire is weak to water. and of course, it does not mean that fire is weak since fire have advantages to some other types that water lacks.. because in the poke world, it's a circular balance... just like the classic "rock-paper-scissors".. it's like comparing "scissors" against "paper", water being the "scissors" :) that's my POV, just sharing :)

I don't think we're comparing about who would win. It's about which do you like better... and most people I know like Fire because of their offensive nature. With the exception of Ninetales and Moltres, I find fire types too boring because they're always about hitting quickly and sweeping and die to Earthquake thing... somewhat like a mini-electric type (electrics are broken).

Water Pokemon all have different strategies because there's just plenty of them. Some are bulky, some can be sweepers, some can be supporters... I just like their varieties...


i said water because i have no fire typs in pearl well 1

It's just Ponyta and Chimchar... how boring is that?! Get Platinum... now! They give you Magmar, Houndoom... and Flareon as well as Rapidash and Infernape. The scarcity of fire types makes me wonder why that is the case...

[pokemonfan]

"Water: Cool calm and collected. Somewhat like me although not always.
Fire:Hot, furious, and uncontrollable. Not something I look for in a pokemon."

These adjectives aren't fire and water, but use Fire and water as symbols to represent them.

To me that's an invalid argument.

I know, that is why it was not my only argument. Its just when I look at the elements in basic form I see destruction and violence, and I see healing powers. However, water type pokemon are strong in many ways, although your team can consist of all water type pokemon they could all be completely different and not all share the same weaknesses. There are ways to cover up weaknesses like quagsire's ice beam. Or ground type addition covering up an electric weakness. I'm just saying that. Also, when was the last time a fire type evolved and got a new type that covered up a significant weakness, like the ground addition to mudkip when it evolves. Huh? What do you have to say to that?

[wraith89]

I know, that is why it was not my only argument. Its just when I look at the elements in basic form I see destruction and violence, and I see healing powers. However, water type pokemon are strong in many ways, although your team can consist of all water type pokemon they could all be completely different and not all share the same weaknesses. There are ways to cover up weaknesses like quagsire's ice beam. Or ground type addition covering up an electric weakness. I'm just saying that. Also, when was the last time a fire type evolved and got a new type that covered up a significant weakness, like the ground addition to mudkip when it evolves. Huh? What do you have to say to that?

Torchic and Chimchar evolves into a part Fighting type which covers their Rock weakness. That also alleviates them slightly from Stealth Rock damage. Also, Quagsire is usually too slow to fire an Ice Beam against Grass types, and Grass types are much bulkier than you think and will take Quagsire's Ice Beam coming off a 65 base special attack with plenty of health to spare. Then you know it's time to switch.

[pokemonfan]

Way to ruin my defense :( What if it is wooper not quagsire?

[wraith89]

Way to ruin my defense :( What if it is wooper not quagsire?

Wooper's also part Ground and his stats are even worse... a LOT worse. 25 special doesn't cut it... and if you want a pure water type try something else... like Manaphy or something. And sorry, I like to play devil's advocate sometimes :-/

But I also have to correct you in places where you're wrong.

[pokemonfan]

Whatever, well hmm.....what about palkia?? Dragon and water type. What do you got now?

[wraith89]

Whatever, well hmm.....what about palkia?? Dragon and water type. What do you got now?

Palkia and Kyogre are the two menaces of uber battling... especially when Palkia can also destroy Blissey in the rain with Aqua Tail (2HKO). Back in RSE Groudon and Ho-oh were the two best team players of ubers... now these two water titans rule Uber battles. Unfortunately for Palkia, his only weakness (Dragon) is common, so play with caution.

But even then, I think we're talking about people's preferences for which type, right? They pick either Fire or Water... and it's really their choice. Like I said, I pick water for their variety of strategies other than hit fast and run...

[pokemonfan]

I know you picked water and I'm just trying to back up the water world. It seemed like you were fighting for fire though. I too, favor the water type, and hate the fire types. Oh know, I'm starting to sound like team aqua in a way. Oh well. I know it is there choice I'm just trying to back it up.

[wraith89]

I'm really defending the fire types to show you that they're not as bad as you say it is. It's really wishful thinking what you're saying... just like saying Pidgeot is a viable option over Staraptor or something like that... and also, I like Ninetales over some Water Pokemon, just to let you know :)

I'd LOVE to make pretend that Electric types were terrible, but unfortunately, I know electrics actually rule the metagame... they're the ones who plot the conspiracy to ban Garchomp into ubers so that they'll rule the metagame again, but let's not get into that ;)

Fire nation FTW

[pokemonfan]

Water tribe FTW! Oh yeah! Ok, yeah I know they are not bad. I'm just well...wishful thinking....

[wraith89]

I was just kidding about the Fire Nation... empires like that must DIE...

If you want you can keep talking about your precious water types while I can defend the fire types just for fun (you know how much I hate Infernape).

[pokemonfan]

Yeah, I guess that could work. A water and psychic team could own infernape. He would go down eventually. If your team was strong enough then the rest should be a walk in the park. Like:

Kyogre
Jirachi
Palkia
Bronzong
Lugia
Alakazam
All on the same team! O.O infernape would perish. I know you were kidding.
BTW I checked my friend requests and now you are on my list of friends :)

[wraith89]

Yeah, I guess that could work. A water and psychic team could own infernape. He would go down eventually. If your team was strong enough then the rest should be a walk in the park. Like:

Kyogre
Jirachi
Palkia
Bronzong
Lugia
Alakazam
All on the same team! O.O infernape would perish. I know you were kidding.
BTW I checked my friend requests and now you are on my list of friends :)

So you're going to bring 6 Pokemon just to take down one monkey... okay... have fun with that while something else takes down the rest of your team with ease...

Also, Palkia and Kyogre are not allowed in a standard team. To take down Infernape, usually Vaporeon or Gliscor or Tentacruel works... Tentacruel only for mixed sets, which are the most common ones.

Alakazam cannot switch into a physical attack though, so watch out.

And thanks :)

[pokemonfan]

yeah, your welcome.
Well, I would do it if I was certain that my opponents highest was infernape and the rest of his/her pokemon are well undertrained. My friend owned my whole team with infernape. :( I was frustrated because I'd trained really hard for the battle. So if I ever battle him again he better watch out, my jirachi is coming for his monkey.
Not trying to offend you but ninetales, vulpix is way prettier and cuter. It doesn't really matter but ninetales lost beauty big time. (In my opinion) I dont like how mudkip evolves, hideousness is gained and all essence of cuteness is gone.

[Enkidu]

WHOA wait, fire types have just as much "variety" as Water types. There are just LESS fire types. Moltres and Heatran make 2 of the best Toxic/Substitute stallers in the game but at the same time rule offensively as well.

Arcanine can WALL A GYARADOS. <- THATS impressive, even more so for an offensive pokemon thats weak to water. Gyarados's STAB.


Both types are good, the only thing water types have over fire types is a a non Weakness to Earthquake and Neutrality to stealth rock. Simply passing them off as weak because SR ruins them will get your team sweeped by a bellyzard or walled to death by a moltres ( if that same moltres isn't Sweeping through your team because you weren't worried about getting SR down )


Magmortar devastates Bulky offensive types team, and can even learn thunderbolt to cripple most water types that would switch in with his decent special attack. Think of Magmortar like a Slower gengar, with access to a STAB fire attack.

Torkoal? One of the defacto best rapid spinners ( along with Starmie ) in the game, and is the ONLY one who could and still can beat Dusknoir/Dusclops one on one. ( not counting the new rotom formes. )

Houndoom, Typlosion? Versatility is not limited to water types.

[pokemonfan]

Ugh, well Torkoal is a rapid spinner but a good surf would destroy him. Magmortar's thunderbolt would do nothing against marshtomp or quagsire and his fire moves wouldn't be as effective either. As for arcanine, gyarados doesn't have to be in, plus moves like dragon rage can do some significant damage. Gyarados is also a flying type. (this surprises me I thought it would be dragon) Heatran is double the weak against water types because of steel plus fire. However, his ability would cover up his steel type weakness to flames.

You make a good argument however, I still will defend water types. As for houndoom and typhlosion well you got me there but when it comes to palkia and kyogre what do you have to say?

[Enkidu]

Thats the beauty of having type coverage + speed.

Steel is NOT weak to water.

Dragon rage does a LOL 40 damage a hit.

And my pokemon theorymon's were just examples of versatility for fire types. Both types are good, there are just more water types.

[wraith89]

WHOA wait, fire types have just as much "variety" as Water types. There are just LESS fire types. Moltres and Heatran make 2 of the best Toxic/Substitute stallers in the game but at the same time rule offensively as well.

Arcanine can WALL A GYARADOS. <- THATS impressive, even more so for an offensive pokemon thats weak to water. Gyarados's STAB.


Both types are good, the only thing water types have over fire types is a a non Weakness to Earthquake and Neutrality to stealth rock. Simply passing them off as weak because SR ruins them will get your team sweeped by a bellyzard or walled to death by a moltres ( if that same moltres isn't Sweeping through your team because you weren't worried about getting SR down )


Magmortar devastates Bulky offensive types team, and can even learn thunderbolt to cripple most water types that would switch in with his decent special attack. Think of Magmortar like a Slower gengar, with access to a STAB fire attack.

Torkoal? One of the defacto best rapid spinners ( along with Starmie ) in the game, and is the ONLY one who could and still can beat Dusknoir/Dusclops one on one. ( not counting the new rotom formes. )

Houndoom, Typlosion? Versatility is not limited to water types.

Yep, you are absolutely right. I use a bulky Moltres set myself, and he works very well and even walls Heatran (Pressure stalling FTW)

However, I will say that the versatility is very limited somewhat with the Fire types due to the lack of species (water is the most abundant species so it's really unfair). I like Camerupt because he doesn't have to play like a sweeper and can deal with stuff like Raikou and Zapdos.

Arcanine has a BST greater than any non-legendaries except for those BST 600s and Slaking... so of course he can be EV'd to take hits from Gyarados (factoring in Intimidate). However, he's better off as a mixed sweeper, and he'd still be countered by a Mixpert quite easily. Arcanine is versatile, I'll give you that.

Flareon plays defensively (on the special side, of course) because of her lack fo movepool on the physical side.

Houndoom and Typhlosion only do one job... and that's sweeping. They can't ever go for a defensive role... but Typhlosion is only used for his ChoiceScarf'd Eruption as lead... that's about all. Houndoom usually attacks from the special side and uses Nasty Plot SOMETIMES just to power up his moves... but other than that, his use is confined to attacking.

Infernape can attack from both sides of the spectrum but he's still only doing one thing: and that's attacking.

As for those defensive fire types, Magcargo and Torkoal, they're very unfortunate. Defensive fire types just don't match up. Fire should be more offensive... and Torkoal as a rapid spinner is unfortunately VERY SLOW and weak to Stealth Rocks and cannot switch into anything like Earthquake or Stone Edge or even Surf... although his defenses MAY allow him to take a hit or two from the physical side. As for Magcargo, this poor escargo has a 4x weak to Water and Ground. He'd do very good in NU where there are many bugs (but Whiscash still owns him)... and he gets Recover, but unfortunately for that typing, defense doesn't work.

I really didn't mean to say Fire types are not versatile, but all I see from Fire types are the sweeper side of it... because the defensive versions in short of Moltres or Ninetales or Arcanine just doesn't seem to make sense.


Not trying to offend you but ninetales, vulpix is way prettier and cuter. It doesn't really matter but ninetales lost beauty big time. (In my opinion) I dont like how mudkip evolves, hideousness is gained and all essence of cuteness is gone.

Are you kidding me? Ninetales is one of the most beautiful Pokemon there is... sure Vulpix is more cuter, but Ninetales is more... elegant and beautiful. You can't deny that beauty of the kitsune... :)


Ugh, well Torkoal is a rapid spinner but a good surf would destroy him. Magmortar's thunderbolt would do nothing against marshtomp or quagsire and his fire moves wouldn't be as effective either. As for arcanine, gyarados doesn't have to be in, plus moves like dragon rage can do some significant damage. Gyarados is also a flying type. (this surprises me I thought it would be dragon) Heatran is double the weak against water types because of steel plus fire. However, his ability would cover up his steel type weakness to flames.

No one would switch Torkoal into a Water type... ever. Magmortar still has other ways to deal with Marshtomp or Quagsire (Sunnybeam anyone?) but most Magmortars wouldn't stay in any of those (Marshtomp should be Swampert btw). Poor Magmortar needs a better ability than Flame Body :(

Dragon Rage = EXACTLY 40 damage... not good for competitive battle.

And that Gyarados is only walled by the rare defensive sets... but Arcanine really can't do much against a Gyarados either barring Thunder Fang. Gyarados can set up with ease (usually the bulkyset) and hit back with strong Waterfalls. This particular Arcanine is weak on the special side though so Mixperts usually do the trick.

Heatran is doubly weak to Ground, not Water. Steel is not weak to water, but water attacks tend to be effective only because not many Steels aside from Dialga or Empoleon resist Water. Heatran is scared of Earthquakes/Earth Powers.

[Phreen]

Wow, I really don't know, both sides make exellent comments, hm its also 50/50, well I think I'll choose........

[pokemonfan]

Thats the beauty of having type coverage + speed.

Steel is NOT weak to water.

Dragon rage does a LOL 40 damage a hit.

And my pokemon theorymon's were just examples of versatility for fire types. Both types are good, there are just more water types.


It is too weak to water! BTW dragon rage is consistant that is why i like it. Consistency so you know that it will always work 40 HP damage and you dont have to worry about type advantages.

I also made a typo, it should be swampert.

[wraith89]

It is too weak to water! BTW dragon rage is consistant that is why i like it. Consistency so you know that it will always work 40 HP damage and you dont have to worry about type advantages.

I also made a typo, it should be swampert.

If you want consistency go for Seismic Toss or Night Shade. Otherwise stuff like Sonic Boom and Dragon Rage have no role outside of in-game. They're also banned in Little Cup for being a 100% accurate OHKO moves (at least Dragon Rage is). Plus, consistent =/= best. Consistently doing 0 damage will get you anywhere? Probably not.

Heatran can actually survive even Empoleon's Surfs with a sliver of HP left. Heatran's a legendary, so yeah... that's a good thing. You realize Flareon survives Surfs from stuff like Blastoise pretty well, right? Yeah, Fire types are good in many ways.

Uh oh, I haven't made arguments for water types yet. I shall do so soon ;)

[pokemonfan]

Yeah, I would like some water defenders. When it comes to surviving surf, you know, it isn't the top water move. Hydro pump is the normal one but then hydro cannon comes in with more power and accuracy makes it the top of water moves. Plus with a rain dance on, torrent up high because of low HP makes a pokemon knowing this unstoppable practically. I'd like to see a fire type survive that.

I've always liked the move dragon rage ok. So I'm a little bias when it comes to the move's efficiency.

[wraith89]

Yeah, I would like some water defenders. When it comes to surviving surf, you know, it isn't the top water move. Hydro pump is the normal one but then hydro cannon comes in with more power and accuracy makes it the top of water moves. Plus with a rain dance on, torrent up high because of low HP makes a pokemon knowing this unstoppable practically. I'd like to see a fire type survive that.

I've always liked the move dragon rage ok. So I'm a little bias when it comes to the move's efficiency.

Hydro Pump has that accuracy problem. One wrong move, you're dead. Especially against a Heatran, Empoleon would have to face an Earth Power if Hydro Pump misses... and that's never good. Yes, it hits more often than it misses, but the fact that it DOES miss should make you question using it if you are sweeping. I only prefer Surf thanks to its better accuracy and PP.

Nobody uses Hydro Cannon in a serious battle. It's a Water type Hyper Beam, and that recharge turn will cost you your match if used wrong. And you're giving a situation in regarding torrent and rain. What if it was the other way around... if it were sunny?

I know what fire type would survive that: a Magcargo with *gasp* Water Absorb! :D <--- yeah I know, it's hacked, but -__-

EDIT: Uh oh... I think I argued for fire too much. Now the ratio b/w Fire and Water preferences is 7:6. @_@

[pokemonfan]

Oops, I forgot about the hydro cannon downside. I also, know the other side if it was sunny, ability blaze was activated, and blastburn was used. However, I highly doubt that a fire pokemon can survive a decent surf. Water types rule and I'm surprised fire has the lead as of this post. Fire pokemon, usually, have the same basic concept, hit and die. It is hard for a fire type to maintain either a good defense or special defense stat if it is battling with the purpose of a higher atk or sp. atk stat. So then, if they do hit first and their foe survives, well then they perish. I'm just making a point, if fire types are so good, how come they usually have the same flaw filled tactic? I mean, blazikan and infernape are excellent examples in the speed + a higher atk stat= enemy KO. Water pokemon can survive those hits so clearly fire types have a flaw right there.

[wraith89]

Oops, I forgot about the hydro cannon downside. I also, know the other side if it was sunny, ability blaze was activated, and blastburn was used. However, I highly doubt that a fire pokemon can survive a decent surf. Water types rule and I'm surprised fire has the lead as of this post. Fire pokemon, usually, have the same basic concept, hit and die. It is hard for a fire type to maintain either a good defense or special defense stat if it is battling with the purpose of a higher atk or sp. atk stat. So then, if they do hit first and their foe survives, well then they perish. I'm just making a point, if fire types are so good, how come they usually have the same flaw filled tactic? I mean, blazikan and infernape are excellent examples in the speed + a higher atk stat= enemy KO. Water pokemon can survive those hits so clearly fire types have a flaw right there.

Infernape's Grass Knot says hi. It easily OHKOs Swampert after a single Nasty Plot... and it with Life Orb Milotic and Suicune and Slowbro can also be OHKOd.

Also, I made the point before, but Fire types are also versatile. You just don't notice it, while the general idea is indeed sweep. Sure, Ninetales is one of those bulkier types, but her movepool seems to indicate supporting status sweeper with the new addition of Nasty Plot and all.

Surf doesn't always OHKO fire types. For some bizarre reason, stupid Infernape survived my Surf from Swampert and almost OHKOd my Swampert with Grass Knot (yes, even an Infernape).

This topic is about personal preferences. Since I like to play defensively and like Water types (they're my favorite types), I picked water. But as for the fire types, they match people's tastes so well. Many people like quick sweeping things that are powerful... hence why stuff like Charizard is popular with kids.

[Destati]

Here's the ultimate arguement for water types.

There are 7 Great water types in the OU metagame which consists of 49 Pokemon. Why is water so great?

1) Lack of grass moves. 99% of the time if a Pokemon uses a grass move its going to be an unSTABbed Grass knot. Very few Pokemon learn Grass Knot. There's probably only around 5 on OU that do.

2) Lack of physical electric moves. The strongest physical electric move you'll see is an unSTABbed Thunder Punch. Water types with naturally high defense can shrug this off and heal the damage.

3) Most of the water types have high special defense. The most common anti-water move is a special attack. This is why for a long time Suicune was "OMG NO WEAK!" because of Calm Mind. Sure you could use thunderpunch, but with 100 HP and 115 defense you're only laughing at yourself.

Water types are fearful and powerful. There are 7 OU waters. There are only 2 OU Fires. You can blame water, rock and ground for that.

[RoarOfSpace100]

Fire is my choice (Charizard FTW)

[wraith89]

Here's the ultimate arguement for water types.

There are 7 Great water types in the OU metagame which consists of 49 Pokemon. Why is water so great?

1) Lack of grass moves. 99% of the time if a Pokemon uses a grass move its going to be an unSTABbed Grass knot. Very few Pokemon learn Grass Knot. There's probably only around 5 on OU that do.

2) Lack of physical electric moves. The strongest physical electric move you'll see is an unSTABbed Thunder Punch. Water types with naturally high defense can shrug this off and heal the damage.

3) Most of the water types have high special defense. The most common anti-water move is a special attack. This is why for a long time Suicune was "OMG NO WEAK!" because of Calm Mind. Sure you could use thunderpunch, but with 100 HP and 115 defense you're only laughing at yourself.

Water types are fearful and powerful. There are 7 OU waters. There are only 2 OU Fires. You can blame water, rock and ground for that.

#1 is correct... but Swampert still hates it (she can still survive, but not with a lot of health).

#2... Electivire says hi, but he usually goes mixed.

#3 is mostly because of typing, I guess. Water types are only weak to two types and have very good defenses generally. Fire types are weak to Stealth Rocks and the ever common Earthquake for the most part. The only two OU Fire types, as you notice, are sweepers. To be a good fire type, you need to be strong. To be a good Water type, you need to be very defensive. I guess that's my input.

Someone vote for Water... it's now 8:6 for Fire to Water @_@

[ZMaster]

I kind of agree with Destati. Water types generally are harder to counter than fire types, as I see.

The only problem I see is that water types don't have much raw offense.

[wraith89]

I kind of agree with Destati. Water types generally are harder to counter than fire types, as I see.

The only problem I see is that water types don't have much raw offense.

You haven't seen Floatzel or Kingdra or Azumarill in battle, now have you? :) Vaporeon can also work as a special attacker, but that's not really her purpose. Gyarados is certainly a threat with raw power...

[evandixon]

Water:
-water has the fewest weaknesses out of all the types
-in the anime, the water type has hidden gills, to absorb the oxogen in the water
-there are more water types than any other

[wraith89]

Water:
-water has the fewest weaknesses out of all the types
-in the anime, the water type has hidden gills, to absorb the oxogen in the water
-there are more water types than any other

The first point is wrong though. Stupid Electric types only have one weakness... and there's magnet rise to get rid of it now >:-[

There's also those generic Normals with Fighting weakness only.

[Phreen]

You haven't seen Floatzel or Kingdra or Azumarill in battle, now have you? :) Vaporeon can also work as a special attacker, but that's not really her purpose. Gyarados is certainly a threat with raw power...

You forgot about starmie, it has pretty good defensive stats, and a good special atk, although its base HP of 60 is eh.

[wraith89]

You forgot about starmie, it has pretty good defensive stats, and a good special atk, although its base HP of 60 is eh.

Ok. Starmie. Sweeper... but I use it as a spinner mostly though.

[Phreen]

does the starmie spinner combo work, I only taught mine special moves, think I should have put recover in their too, and fire is winning, wow I thought water would be

[wraith89]

Vote for water... NAO.

But yes, Starmie is a good spinner, but it dies to Weavile's Pursuit... which is BAD. Starmie's a good spinner though, but special sweeping Starmie also works.

[Phreen]

I'm hoping water wins, not that I hate fire though, maybe I should make my starmie a spinner.

[wraith89]

If Starmie doesn't work, other spinners work, like Donphan or Blastoise (yes, the latter is in UU, but is perfectly usable in OU if used properly)

[Enkidu]

Here's the ultimate arguement for water types.

There are 7 Great water types in the OU metagame which consists of 49 Pokemon. Why is water so great?

1) Lack of grass moves. 99% of the time if a Pokemon uses a grass move its going to be an unSTABbed Grass knot. Very few Pokemon learn Grass Knot. There's probably only around 5 on OU that do.

2) Lack of physical electric moves. The strongest physical electric move you'll see is an unSTABbed Thunder Punch. Water types with naturally high defense can shrug this off and heal the damage.

3) Most of the water types have high special defense. The most common anti-water move is a special attack. This is why for a long time Suicune was "OMG NO WEAK!" because of Calm Mind. Sure you could use thunderpunch, but with 100 HP and 115 defense you're only laughing at yourself.

Water types are fearful and powerful. There are 7 OU waters. There are only 2 OU Fires. You can blame

Thats actually untrue many pokemon can learn grass moves ( almost half of OU )

Starmie/Breloom/Metagross/Gengar/Alakazam/Latias/Togekiss/Abomnasnow/Bronzong/Empoleon/Infernape/Blissey/Cresselia/Flygon are the ones I found in a matter of seconds that can learn grass moves. ( decent ones anyway )

The fact remains that grass type attacks will be passed up in favor of ones that offer MUCH better coverage anyway. See thunderbolt/Ice beam.


Now I keep hearing water "plays more defensively" but I find this largely untrue, water types are relegated to switching in and stopping powerful fire types ( Infernape/heatran) and dragons ( Flygon/Salamence/Dragonite ) making them just as offensive as everyone else, just with more bulk. Granted water "walls" fire but thats like saying flying types wall ground types so that makes them better.

Fire is not just a hit and run type! Even more so as your only referencing Infernape ( Which is ONE fire type ) There are 17 total fire types ( including Legendary's but not including Not fully evolved pokemon ) but there are 50 total water types ( again not counting NFE's, but counting legendary's. )

2/17 in OU versus 7/50 !

It's really an unfair comparison to say that water types have more "versatility" just because their are more of them, and in terms of % of usable pokemon out of the total, its actually in fire types favor.

The only reason Fire types CANNOT be run defensively most of the time is that GIANT stealth rock weakness, meaning they cannot afford to switch in and out very often ( with the exception of heatran who makes a amazing wall if used right. )


Ugh, done. I don't even like fire types that much. Sheesh.

[Mysteryman]

Water types pwn

[wraith89]

Thats actually untrue many pokemon can learn grass moves ( almost half of OU )

Starmie/Breloom/Metagross/Gengar/Alakazam/Latias/Togekiss/Abomnasnow/Bronzong/Empoleon/Infernape/Blissey/Cresselia/Flygon are the ones I found in a matter of seconds that can learn grass moves. ( decent ones anyway )

The fact remains that grass type attacks will be passed up in favor of ones that offer MUCH better coverage anyway.

Granted water "walls" fire but thats like saying flying types wall ground types so that makes them better. <- Totally wrong.

Fire is not just a hit and run type! Even more so as your only referencing Infernape ( Which is ONE fire type ) There are 17 total fire types ( including Legendary's but not including Not fully evolved pokemon ) but there are 50 total water types ( again not counting NFE's, but counting legendary's. )

2/17 in OU versus 7/50 !

It's really an unfair comparison to say that water types have more "versatility" just because their are more of them, and in terms of % of usable pokemon out of the total, its actually in fire types favor.

The only reason Fire types CANNOT be run defensively most of the time is that GIANT stealth rock weakness, meaning they cannot afford to switch in and out very often ( with the exception of heatran who makes a amazing wall if used right. )


Ugh, done. I don't even like fire types that much. Sheesh.

:)

I think Destati meant lack of STAB users of Grass Knot in OU... but Grass Knot is learned by ALMOST anything, which befuddles me to no end :-/

And Fire types do vary for the most part, sure... but in the end they are trying to sweep... like Ninetales who has these support moves, but also uses Nasty Plot to give her a chance to sweep.

The unfair part is what I said before. You've read my post, right?

Yeah, defensive fire types = NOT their nature! Fire has amazing coverage and offensive power, but should be weak defensively just like normal fire. Earthquakes and Surfs being thrown everywhere... and those Stealth Rocks @_@

[Enkidu]

And Fire types do vary for the most part, sure... but in the end they are trying to sweep... like Ninetales who has these support moves, but also uses Nasty Plot to give her a chance to sweep.


The same way CM/CroCune and Cursepert try to sweep? Choice specs vaporeon? Sub Petaya/Agility Empoleon? Raindance dragon dance kingdra? CB aqua jet Azumarill? DD gyarados? There are more offensive Water types than their are fire types.


3 is mostly because of typing, I guess. Water types are only weak to two types and have very good defenses generally. Fire types are weak to Stealth Rocks and the ever common Earthquake for the most part. The only two OU Fire types, as you notice, are sweepers. To be a good fire type, you need to be strong. To be a good Water type, you need to be very defensive. I guess that's my input.

Yea, buts more metagame oriented than stat/ability wise.

[wraith89]

The same way CM/CroCune and Cursepert try to sweep? Choice specs vaporeon? Sub Petaya/Agility Empoleon? Raindance dragon dance kingdra? CB aqua jet Azumarill? DD gyarados? There are more offensive Water types than their are fire types.

Think percentage wise. Most fires are sweepers.

[Enkidu]

8.5 of the 17 fire types are sweepers, with the other's being status inducers/Walls.
( I say .5 because there is one that does both...but isn't very good at either but outside of that has no real role :/ )

Out of the 50 water types, the majority of them are sweepers themselves, with only something like 15 of them being walls/ defensive pokemon. So I'm still going with bad comparison.

[pokemonfan]

Yeah, well the name some Enkidu. That would be nice. Are they decent ones? I mean some of the best water types, in my opinion, are starters I really dont like the other water pokemon in the games (with the exception of poliwhirl I love him and vaporeon) I just see water types as well more defensive because of their more bulky evolutions. I dont think cyndaquil puts on that much weight..and neither does chimchar and ponyta doesn't get that much bigger, magby grows but steadily there isn't a huge leap like from wooper to quagsire or marshtomp to swampert. Plus, when considering the legendaries I think kyogre suicoone, and palkia have a large advantage over the other legendaries. Plus, Kyogre has always been somewhat like my favorite legendary. Kyogre (drizzle ability) suicoone (covers grass weakness with ice moves) and palkia (water + dragon type=a high resistance to most types.

Although, I'm quite bias to water types I realize the fire type advantages. Next time I play a generation IV game I will pick chimchar because I've grown somewhat tired of the constant water choosing with all of my generation IV games. Plus, in firered I chose charmander because charizard is awesome but I still think water types are better. Plus blastoise did not strike my fancy so I did not choose squirtle. I was very close to choosing bulbasaur though.

[Destati]

Starmie/Breloom/Metagross/Gengar/Alakazam/Latias/Togekiss/Abomnasnow/Bronzong/Empoleon/Infernape/Blissey/Cresselia/Flygon

Energy Ball is always outclassed by T-bolt. Most pokemon that learn Energy Ball also learn T-bolt. And of course I exaggerated a bit, its more like 10-15, but it also has to deal with whether or not its a good choice to use Grass Knot on that set and if the Pokemon is meant to attack like that. Also, Giga Drain isn't going to do crap for Flygon = D

The reason water is so powerful in ubers is because of the boosts it gives. Boost to water moves. Boost to Thunder Accuracy. Kyogre and Palkia learn those moves, as does Manaphy. Groudon... makes it pretty so fire can deal more damage and Pokemon can heal more health with synthesis/solarbeam charges faster blah blah. There's no real strength in ubers for that though. Skymin and Ho-oh work nicely along side Groudon, but thats it. You need a friggen Exeguttor to use Solar Beam because Groudon's sp. atk isn't going to penetrate Kyogre at all.

And Fire types were bad this metagame even before SR got popular. The early metagame was about one thing: Garchomp and how to counter it. Unfortunately for Fire Types, Garchomp and its counters both happened to counter fire types.

[pokemonfan]

?Cant a water type counter garchomp with a move like surf?

[ZMaster]

?Cant a water type counter garchomp with a move like surf?

Garchomp is also Dragon type, nullifying it's Ground weakness.

I vote for Water types. Although Fire types are scarce, they are still over-favored. It would be nice to see more Fire types, but not if they all out-speed water types.

[wraith89]

Blah. I actually like Fire types, but once Infernape hit the scene, I only started hating Infernape really... that's about all. Electrics are a bigger pain really. They're the giants of this metagame: one weakness, very fast, very strong, not weak to Stealth Rock naturally... so Fire types are really mini-Electrics. To tell you the truth, I prefer Infernape over Electrics any day.

And as for the countering Garchomp... not really. Once Yachechomp with Swords Dance came in... that thing tore down so many Pokemon that it took THREE Pokemon to take the menace down. That's why it was banned to ubers, I guess, or it was those electrics who complained they had a very powerful counter and therefore voted the land shark out so they'll rule the metagame, but I don't know what I'm talking about... However, I took down Garchomp with Vaporeon... but only when Garchomp was holding Life orb...

[Narwhal]

I cannot pick because Swampert and Blaziken are always in my party on Diamond. I like both equally.

[wraith89]

I cannot pick because Swampert and Blaziken are always in my party on Diamond. I like both equally.

That's awesome. I like Water-Fire synergy :)
I can't wait until a Fire/Water type comes out... that'd be cool... (thinks of Antipode from Chronotrigger... meh)

[pokemonfan]

A water and fire type? That just sounds impossible. Anyway, I guess you may be right on the garchomp thing but I'm not to sure. I think that a decent water type could bring him down. As for the conspiracy with the electric types I think you are definitely wrong there. I just dont know. I still say water, I mean you cant even dream of a fire type bringing down a garchomp.

[wraith89]

A water and fire type? That just sounds impossible. Anyway, I guess you may be right on the garchomp thing but I'm not to sure. I think that a decent water type could bring him down. As for the conspiracy with the electric types I think you are definitely wrong there. I just dont know. I still say water, I mean you cant even dream of a fire type bringing down a garchomp.

You read the Bible, right?
Read Job 41 and tell me about the sea creature Leviathan who breathes fire... how's that? :)

BTW Leviathan is a dragon... a dinosaur... if your footnotes say something like "a Nile Crocodile" or "a whale" do read that passage and tell me any of those creatures can breathe fire or survive hits from arrows, swords, and spears...

[ZMaster]

You read the Bible, right?
Read Job 41 and tell me about the sea creature Leviathan who breathes fire... how's that? :)

LoL.

Anyhow, a Water/Fire type would be really cool =D It would be insane.

A Elec/Ground would be nice as well lol! Imagine they make an evolution for Pikachu, branching to the Elec/Ground type? Pretty damn awesome.

[wraith89]

LoL.

Anyhow, a Water/Fire type would be really cool =D It would be insane.

A Elec/Ground would be nice as well lol! Imagine they make an evolution for Pikachu, branching to the Elec/Ground type? Pretty **** awesome.

Electrics need more dual types, I agree... but don't make them so broken!

[ZMaster]

Electrics need more dual types, I agree... but don't make them so broken!

Physical Electric/Ground type would be a nice addition. The available weakness would be grass and ice, though.

Water/Fire would probably be weak to Electric still, but I have yet to check on the Move Effective Pokétch App.

A funny type would be Electric/Bug

[wraith89]

Electric/Bug sounds cool. Volbeat and Illumise are the closest examples we can get... but they're not part Electric.

[Narwhal]

An electric/poison pokemon would be cool, but... back to fire vs water. I use both in double battles because normally one of them is super effective, because Blaziken has blaze kick and double kick that covers 2 types, and Swampert with muddy water and earthquake covers 2 types, so they are super effective on normal/grass/ice etc. with Blaziken and electric/fire/rock/ground etc. on Swampert.

[kuoleva]

I personally like fire, but I think they're going to get desperate with types, and start making ones that make no sense. I'm honestly waiting for Fire/Ice, or Electric/Ground. >.<

I hardly ever use water in battles, if I need to go against a fire, I bring ground, to cover both fire and electricity. Unless it's also part ice, I never have water pokemon. :/ Kyogre is the only water pokemon I use. Other than the occasional Vaporeon, when I need a surf and don't feel like bringing my beaver.

[Enkidu]

Yeah, well then name some Enkidu. That would be nice. Are they decent ones? I mean some of the best water types, in my opinion, are starters. I really dont like the other water pokemon in the games (with the exception of poliwhirl I love him and vaporeon) I just see water types as well more defensive because of their more bulky evolutions. I dont think cyndaquil puts on that much weight..and neither does chimchar and ponyta doesn't get that much bigger, magby grows but steadily there isn't a huge leap like from wooper to quagsire or marshtomp to swampert. Plus, when considering the legendary's I think kyogre suicune, and palkia have a large advantage over the other legendary's. Plus, Kyogre has always been somewhat like my favorite legendary. Kyogre (drizzle ability) suicune (covers grass weakness with ice moves) and palkia (water + dragon type=a high resistance to most types. )

Although, I'm quite bias to water types I realize the fire type advantages. Next time I play a generation IV game I will pick chimchar because I've grown somewhat tired of the constant water choosing with all of my generation IV games. Plus, in fire Red I chose charmander because charizard is awesome but I still think water types are better. Plus blastoise did not strike my fancy so I did not choose squirtle. I was very close to choosing bulbasaur though.

Why should I have to name ANYTHING when everyone's only referencing 2 water pokemon as being defensive? The jist of what you guys have been saying is " WATER POKEMON ARE DEFENSIVE BECAUSE CM SUICUNE USED TO BE UNSTOPPABLE " In turn why do I have look shit up? Go do it yourself. :/

But for the sake of arguement, these fire types are bulky ( but as people say bulk is wasted on fire types )

Arcanine,Camerupt,Entei,Flareon, Ho-oh,Heatran Macargo, Moltres and Torkoal. Thats 9 of the 17 fire types. Which for arguments sake, we will call 50 % Although they can also run offensive sets.

Water types have defensively:

Bibarel, Blastoise, Cloyster, Empoleon, Gastrodon, Gyarados, Lanturn, Lapras, Milotic, Walrein, Suicune, Swampert, Vaporeon Whiscash, Quagsire, Slowbro,Slowking, Ludicolo and Matine.

Also as you can see, many of these guys can also run offensive sets.

Thats 19/50 nowhere near close to half. Lets say I even missed 5 Pokemon( which I don't think I did ) Thats still under half of what fire has.


I don't even know what I'm arguing anymore. Ugh.

[wraith89]

Why should I have to name ANYTHING when everyone's only referencing 2 water pokemon as being defensive? The jist of what you guys have been saying is " WATER POKEMON ARE DEFENSIVE BECAUSE CM SUICUNE USED TO BE UNSTOPPABLE " In turn why do I have look $H!X up? Go do it yourself. :/

But for the sake of arguement, these fire types are bulky ( but as people say bulk is wasted on fire types )

Arcanine,Camerupt,Entei,Flareon, Ho-oh,Heatran Macargo, Moltres and Torkoal. Thats 9 of the 17 fire types. Which for arguments sake, we will call 50 % Although they can also run offensive sets.

Water types have defensively:

Bibarel, Blastoise, Cloyster, Empoleon, Gastrodon, Gyarados, Lanturn, Lapras, Milotic, Walrein, Suicune, Swampert, Vaporeon, Whiscash, Quagsire, Slowbro, Slowking, Ludicolo and Mantine.

Also as you can see, many of these guys can also run offensive sets.

Thats 19/50 nowhere near close to half. Lets say I even missed 5 Pokemon( which I don't think I did ) Thats still under half of what fire has.

I don't even know what I'm arguing anymore. Ugh.

Whoa! Chill... no need to get serious :-/
This topic's become more of a "who's better" topic when no one really is. It's more of a which one do you prefer thing... so yeah, let's just stick with that. I don't see why you're so angry about it :)

[Enkidu]

I hate getting responses like


Yeah, well then name some Enkidu. That would be nice. Are they decent ones?

" Wheres your proof" when no one else ( except destati ) has even given me any numbers/information to work with.

This whole thread has mostly been " I THINK WATER, SO ITS BETTER or I LIKE FIRE, SO ITS BETTER" which isn't answering the question.

Edit* heres the original question
Ok, there has always been this age long debate about which is better. Now, in relation to pokemon which types are better water types or fire types. Forget the fact that water types can own fire types naturally (I'm bias towards water) and please back up your reasoning.

[wraith89]

I hate getting responses like



" Wheres your proof" when no one else ( except destati ) has even given me any numbers/information to work with.

This whole thread has mostly been " I THINK WATER, SO ITS BETTER or I LIKE FIRE, SO ITS BETTER" which isn't answering the question.

It's PF though... he doesn't know any better about the deep aspects of competitive battling if you haven't been following his posts. Take it easy on him and try to know your audiences :-/

And yeah, these type of arguments are supposed to be objective, not subjective... I'd give out figures, but I was defending the fire types that whole time just to play Devil's Advocate with PF.

[Enkidu]

Fair enough. Ok I'm done with this thread for today.

[pokemonfan]

You read the Bible, right?
Read Job 41 and tell me about the sea creature Leviathan who breathes fire... how's that? :)

BTW Leviathan is a dragon... a dinosaur... if your footnotes say something like "a Nile Crocodile" or "a whale" do read that passage and tell me any of those creatures can breathe fire or survive hits from arrows, swords, and spears...

I guess you have a point there. Yeah, I've read that part.


It's PF though... he doesn't know any better about the deep aspects of competitive battling if you haven't been following his posts. Take it easy on him and try to know your audiences :-/

And yeah, these type of arguments are supposed to be objective, not subjective... I'd give out figures, but I was defending the fire types that whole time just to play Devil's Advocate with PF.

I'd say I was insulted but your correct. I really dont know that much about competitive battling. That is because I really dont battle competitively. Also, this thread I guess has been going in the direction on whose better when evidently no one will win because really no one is better. Plus there is no way a die hard water supporter is going to sway a die hard fire supporter or a fire supporter sway a water supporter. So the argument losing its point.

Additionally, although you were angered with my question, enkidu, I'm glad you did name some. Also, I see that you have a point there those were more of a defensive fire types.

Perhaps all this classification with water being defensive and fire being offensive is just a stereotype I think that is kind of evident now, and what I've learned from this thread so far.

[wraith89]

I guess you have a point there. Yeah, I've read that part.



I'd say I was insulted but your correct. I really dont know that much about competitive battling. That is because I really dont battle competitively. Also, this thread I guess has been going in the direction on whose better when evidently no one will win because really no one is better. Plus there is no way a die hard water supporter is going to sway a die hard fire supporter or a fire supporter sway a water supporter. So the argument losing its point.

Additionally, although you were angered with my question, enkidu, I'm glad you did name some. Also, I see that you have a point there those were more of a defensive fire types.

Perhaps all this classification with water being defensive and fire being offensive is just a stereotype I think that is kind of evident now, and what I've learned from this thread so far.

Ahhh... I really didn't mean it that way. Don't take it as an offense :(
If you want, I can teach you some stuff about competitive battling. I only said that so Enkidu would chill a bit... didn't mean to put it an offensive way.

[pokemonfan]

Ok, I do realize though that my whole argument has been based on my preference and not really backing up everything. I dont take it to offense.